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Message no. 1
From: justin@***********.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:11:06 -0500
At 03:56 AM 8/28/2003, Gurth wrote:
> In some ways, I
>think it's too bad the American attempt at modernization in the '50s and
>'60s never caught on ("thru" instead of "through" etc., which at
least
>dropped the letters that don't get pronounced anyway).

Oh no, that would have sucked had it stuck.

BTW, don't you mean modernisation?
;)
Message no. 2
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:55:58 +0200
According to Justin Bell, on Saturday 30 August 2003 08:11 the word on the
street was...

> >think it's too bad the American attempt at modernization in the '50s
> > and '60s never caught on ("thru" instead of "through" etc.,
which at
> > least dropped the letters that don't get pronounced anyway).
>
> Oh no, that would have sucked had it stuck.

How so? It looks weird to us because we're used to the "normal" English
spelling (in as far as there is such a thing :) but spelling is, like so
many other things, only what you're used to. Making it internally
consistent and simple helps a lot, though :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: justin@***********.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:42:43 -0500
At 03:55 AM 8/30/2003, Gurth wrote:
>According to Justin Bell, on Saturday 30 August 2003 08:11 the word on the
>street was...
>
> > >think it's too bad the American attempt at modernization in the '50s
> > > and '60s never caught on ("thru" instead of "through"
etc., which at
> > > least dropped the letters that don't get pronounced anyway).
> >
> > Oh no, that would have sucked had it stuck.
>
>How so? It looks weird to us because we're used to the "normal" English
>spelling (in as far as there is such a thing :) but spelling is, like so
>many other things, only what you're used to. Making it internally
>consistent and simple helps a lot, though :)

Mainly because there are already so many subtle and not so subtle
differences between US English and Brit English that it's hard to tell what
some people mean.

And as for your simple example, I don't know if it's a valid one or not, as
I am not sure what the list of changes would have encompassed, but why
modify through to thru, and not threw to thru? etc.?
Message no. 4
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:12:08 -0400
On Saturday, Aug 30, 2003, at 11:42 US/Eastern, Justin Bell wrote:

> At 03:55 AM 8/30/2003, Gurth wrote:
>> According to Justin Bell, on Saturday 30 August 2003 08:11 the word
>> on the
>> street was...
>>
>> > >think it's too bad the American attempt at modernization in the
>> '50s
>> > > and '60s never caught on ("thru" instead of
"through" etc., which
>> at
>> > > least dropped the letters that don't get pronounced anyway).
>> >
>>
Perhaps people who use English should start using the Shavian alphabet
vice the Latin(Roman) alphabet. It helps reduce the complexity of
English spelling by being phonetic.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 5
From: The_Sarge@***.de (MatthÀus_Cebulla)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:15:50 +0200
> Perhaps people who use English should start using the Shavian alphabet
> vice the Latin(Roman) alphabet. It helps reduce the complexity of
> English spelling by being phonetic.

Query: Shavian alphaber?

> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

Matthäus Cebulla
--
Matthäus is now listening to "Tool - The Patient".
07:11m is the length. From the Album "Lateralus"
Message no. 6
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:20:31 +0200
SH> On Saturday, Aug 30, 2003, at 11:42 US/Eastern, Justin Bell wrote:

>> At 03:55 AM 8/30/2003, Gurth wrote:
>>> According to Justin Bell, on Saturday 30 August 2003 08:11 the word
>>> on the
>>> street was...
>>>
>>> > >think it's too bad the American attempt at modernization in the
>>> '50s
>>> > > and '60s never caught on ("thru" instead of
"through" etc., which
>>> at
>>> > > least dropped the letters that don't get pronounced anyway).
>>> >
>>>
SH> Perhaps people who use English should start using the Shavian alphabet
SH> vice the Latin(Roman) alphabet. It helps reduce the complexity of
SH> English spelling by being phonetic.


---------------------------------------------

forgive someone who always felt taht sleeping was the right thing to
do when it came to grammar but what should that be that alphabet ?

Greetz
Hexren
Message no. 7
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:34:30 -0400
On Saturday, Aug 30, 2003, at 12:15 US/Eastern, Matthäus Cebulla wrote:

>> Perhaps people who use English should start using the Shavian alphabet
>> vice the Latin(Roman) alphabet. It helps reduce the complexity of
>> English spelling by being phonetic.
>
> Query: Shavian alphaber?
>
>
You should be able to find references on the web with a google search.
My web page: http://www.mithrandir.com/Shavian/Shavian.html has some
documents I have converted to Shavian.

Basically it is a phonetic alphabet that was commissioned by George
Bernard Shaw (hence Shavian since it is the adjectival form of Shaw) in
his will. He had complained that English was very difficult to
read/write since its spelling was difficult. He has an example that
one can spell the word fish as "ghoti" because in English "gh" can
sound like "f" (like in laugh), "o" can sound like "i" (like
in women),
and "ti" can sound like "sh" (like in nation). Part of the commission

was to have "Androcles and the Lion" printed in a book that has
traditional orthography on one side of each page, and Shavian on the
other. The Shavian takes up less space, is easy to read after a couple
hours of study, and gets rid of the need for spelling bees. :-)

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 8
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:11:19 +0200
According to Justin Bell, on Saturday 30 August 2003 08:11 the word on the
street was...

> >think it's too bad the American attempt at modernization in the '50s
> > and '60s never caught on ("thru" instead of "through" etc.,
which at
> > least dropped the letters that don't get pronounced anyway).
>
> Oh no, that would have sucked had it stuck.

Is it any worse than color vs. colour?

Lars
Message no. 9
From: iridios@********.net (Iridios)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:21:50 -0400
Scott Harrison wrote:
>

> Basically it is a phonetic alphabet that was commissioned by George
> Bernard Shaw (hence Shavian since it is the adjectival form of Shaw) in
> his will. He had complained that English was very difficult to
> read/write since its spelling was difficult. He has an example that one
> can spell the word fish as "ghoti" because in English "gh" can
sound
> like "f" (like in laugh), "o" can sound like "i" (like
in women), and
> "ti" can sound like "sh" (like in nation).

The problems with his example is that it ignores the phonetic rules.
"GH" makes the "F" sound only at the end of words (maybe in the
middle too but I cannot think of any examples). The "O" in women
does not sound like the "I" in fish, unless it is mispronounced. It
should be pronounced more like a "U". The "TI" only sounds like
"SH" when it's beginning a syllable, not at the end of a word.


> Part of the commission was
> to have "Androcles and the Lion" printed in a book that has traditional
> orthography on one side of each page, and Shavian on the other. The
> Shavian takes up less space, is easy to read after a couple hours of
> study, and gets rid of the need for spelling bees. :-)

But how does it handle words like "through" and "threw"? Both sound
the same and should have the same phonetic spelling.

--
Iridios / http://iridios.bravepages.com

Top ten reasons to visit my new site:
8. It's the cool thing to do?
------------------------------------------------------
GCC0.3: y69>?.us[PA] G89 SCP/F/PA:@@[SR] B+>++ f@*
RR rm= rr+ l- m=>- w--->= s=>*:= GM+:+(=):=[PF] hp!>+ LA= mf+ W+ C--(+) CG-
OG+ F= c->= K=(?)
------------------------------------------------------
This email has been verified by no one.
8/30/03
Message no. 10
From: justin@***********.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:45:29 -0500
At 06:21 PM 8/30/2003, Iridios wrote:
>>Part of the commission was to have "Androcles and the Lion" printed in a

>>book that has traditional orthography on one side of each page, and
>>Shavian on the other. The Shavian takes up less space, is easy to read
>>after a couple hours of study, and gets rid of the need for spelling bees. :-)
>
>But how does it handle words like "through" and "threw"? Both
sound the
>same and should have the same phonetic spelling.

And gorilla and guerilla?
Message no. 11
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:53:52 -0400
On Saturday, Aug 30, 2003, at 19:45 US/Eastern, Justin Bell wrote:

> At 06:21 PM 8/30/2003, Iridios wrote:
>>> Part of the commission was to have "Androcles and the Lion" printed

>>> in a book that has traditional orthography on one side of each page,
>>> and Shavian on the other. The Shavian takes up less space, is easy
>>> to read after a couple hours of study, and gets rid of the need for
>>> spelling bees. :-)
>>
>> But how does it handle words like "through" and "threw"?
Both sound
>> the same and should have the same phonetic spelling.
>
> And gorilla and guerilla?
>
>
Those words that sound the same are spelled the same way in Shavian.
So you no longer have issues with spelling. You just have to learn
that a word may have different meanings and you have to use context for
meaning. People do this speaking all the time. In Shavian you need to
do this in writing as well.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 12
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:58:18 +0200
According to Iridios, on Sunday 31 August 2003 01:21 the word on the street
was...

> But how does it handle words like "through" and "threw"? Both
sound
> the same and should have the same phonetic spelling.

What's the problem with spelling two words with different meanings the
same? Plenty of languages do it all the time, and telling the difference
is usually easy enough from the context it's used in. For example, in
Dutch "weer" means both "again" and "weather", but confusing
the two is
rather difficult: a sentence you interpret to mean "What is the again
going to be like today?" would not make very much sense, IMHO :) You might
get this kind of interpretation with a low-level language chip, though...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:42:47 +0200
From: "Scott Harrison" <scott@**********.com>
> On Saturday, Aug 30, 2003, at 19:45 US/Eastern, Justin Bell wrote:
>
<Snip>
> > And gorilla and guerilla?
> >
> >
> Those words that sound the same are spelled the same way in Shavian.
> So you no longer have issues with spelling. You just have to learn
> that a word may have different meanings and you have to use context for
> meaning. People do this speaking all the time. In Shavian you need to
> do this in writing as well.

So in Shavian you can't differentiate between:

"The gorilla attacked us" and "The guerilla attacked us"

There is no problem when spoken, as you can ask what type of
gorilla/guerilla, but when written you only hav ethe words.

Lars
Message no. 14
From: The_Sarge@***.de (MatthÀus_Cebulla)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:48:35 +0200
> So in Shavian you can't differentiate between:
>
> "The gorilla attacked us" and "The guerilla attacked us"
>
> There is no problem when spoken, as you can ask what type of
> gorilla/guerilla, but when written you only hav ethe words.

It might be only in german, but I think that gorilla and guerilla aren't
pronounced the same! Guerilla is spoken somewhat 'spanish' isn't it?

*confused*

> Lars

Matthäus Cebulla
Message no. 15
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:57:03 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthäus Cebulla" <The_Sarge@***.de>


> > So in Shavian you can't differentiate between:
> >
> > "The gorilla attacked us" and "The guerilla attacked us"

> It might be only in german, but I think that gorilla and guerilla
aren't
> pronounced the same! Guerilla is spoken somewhat 'spanish' isn't it?

I agree. IMO, 'gorilla' is pronounced with more 'o' and 'guerilla' is
pronouced with more 'e'. For more on this, watch 'Captain Ron'. ;)

Although, this is a really bad example, it's the first that came to my
head:
her -> guer-illa
whore -> gor-illa

--
Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@****.edu
ICQ: Da Twink Daddy (514984)
YM: DaTwinkDaddy
AIM: DaTwinkDaddy
Message no. 16
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:53:59 +0200
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Sunday 31 August 2003 17:42 the word on
the street was...

> So in Shavian you can't differentiate between:
>
> "The gorilla attacked us" and "The guerilla attacked us"
>
> There is no problem when spoken, as you can ask what type of
> gorilla/guerilla, but when written you only hav ethe words.

Context, maybe? If you've been writing about how you were observing "wild
gorillas" and then one attacked you, it's a safe bet you weren't referring
to freedom fighters, but to the species of ape... IOW, it's fairly
unlikely that sentences where confusion may occur are written without any
context whatsoever.

Plus, there are plenty of situations with spoken language where you can't
ask for clarification, like when you hear someone speak on the radio or
TV.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:17:48 +0100 (BST)
> I agree. IMO, 'gorilla' is pronounced with more 'o'
> and 'guerilla' is
> pronouced with more 'e'. For more on this, watch
> 'Captain Ron'. ;)
>
> Although, this is a really bad example, it's the
> first that came to my
> head:
> her -> guer-illa
> whore -> gor-illa
> Da Twink Daddy

Actually, I think it's more of an 'oo' for the former.
Goo-rilla. But maybe you silly Americans say it wrong.

;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 18
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:02:32 -0400
I'd pronounce it ger-i-ya. But I know a bit of Spanish. The primate, OTOH,
would be Go-ril-a

-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Rand Ratinac
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:18 AM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages

> I agree. IMO, 'gorilla' is pronounced with more 'o'
> and 'guerilla' is
> pronouced with more 'e'. For more on this, watch
> 'Captain Ron'. ;)
>
> Although, this is a really bad example, it's the
> first that came to my
> head:
> her -> guer-illa
> whore -> gor-illa
> Da Twink Daddy

Actually, I think it's more of an 'oo' for the former.
Goo-rilla. But maybe you silly Americans say it wrong.

;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka
Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
Message no. 19
From: justin@***********.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:32:27 -0500
At Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:11:19 +0200 , Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:

>Is it any worse than color vs. colour?

Actually, yes. There are already all sorts of pr146 ms with the small
changes between English and American, one that seems to pop up fairly
frequently is draft/draught. Most of the Americans I have known that have
tried to pronounce draught say something like drought.

Now, imagine all the problems it would cause if you changed words like
night to nite, light to lite, etc.
Message no. 20
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:03:18 -0400
On Tuesday, Sep 2, 2003, at 19:32 US/Eastern, Justin Bell wrote:

> At Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:11:19 +0200 , Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
>
>> Is it any worse than color vs. colour?
>
> Actually, yes. There are already all sorts of pr146 ms with the small
> changes between English and American, one that seems to pop up fairly
> frequently is draft/draught. Most of the Americans I have known that
> have tried to pronounce draught say something like drought.
>
> Now, imagine all the problems it would cause if you changed words like
> night to nite, light to lite, etc.
>
>
>
This is exactly why one should switch to Shavian. Night and nite
would both be spelled in the same manner (with only three letters).
For the most part, the spelling differences you encounter today between
British and American English would go away.

However, you have another problem in that the pronunciation of words
between British and American English is different and since Shavian is
phonetic it would reflect that difference.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 21
From: justin@***********.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 19:15:54 -0500
At 07:03 PM 9/2/2003, Scott Harrison wrote:
> However, you have another problem in that the pronunciation of
> words between British and American English is different and since Shavian
> is phonetic it would reflect that difference.

There are also dialect differences between areas of cities, let alone
across the world.
And different accents would make words also be spelled differently, for
example, a New Zealander would spell six and sex the same way...
Message no. 22
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:53:25 +0200
Scott Harrison wrote:
> [snip]
>
> You should be able to find references on the web with a
> google search.
> My web page: http://www.mithrandir.com/Shavian/Shavian.html
> has some
> documents I have converted to Shavian.
>

Interesting, but it would be nice if I didn't have to download a Unicode
text reader to view the documents :)


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon


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Message no. 23
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: [shadowrun] Re: [OT] Languages
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:17:08 -0400
On Wednesday, Sep 3, 2003, at 09:53 US/Eastern, Steve Garrard wrote:

> Scott Harrison wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>> You should be able to find references on the web with a
>> google search.
>> My web page: http://www.mithrandir.com/Shavian/Shavian.html
>> has some
>> documents I have converted to Shavian.
>>
>
> Interesting, but it would be nice if I didn't have to download a
> Unicode
> text reader to view the documents :)
>
>
You should be able to read the HTML documents if you have a font that
handles the Shavian at the Unicode points in which they are stored.
The fonts on the web site should be adequate for this. You may need to
inform your web browser that one of these fonts needs to be used when
displaying Unicode (UTF-8).

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

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