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Message no. 1
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: Shadowrun society and culture
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 16:59:27 -0700
>Gun control laws are not aimed at regulating the USE of guns. They are
>aimed at regulating the AVAILABILITY of guns. The laws can work, if
>enforced... that's why you don't see many crooks with tanks, for example.
>OTH, it's probably a _little_ late to start controlling the availability
>of guns when there's such an ample supply already.

You don't see crooks with tanks because: 1) There is a limited supply (only
a couple of dozen thousand in the world, mostly ex-Soviet) compared with
firearms 2) The economic expenditure to acquire a tank is much greater than
that to acquire a firearm 3) Tanks are not very portable or concealable
4)The benefits of acquiring and using a tank are outweighed by the various
difficulties in acquiring/using/hiding the thing.

The antidrug actions undertaken are also designed at controlling the
availability of drugs, and has failed miserably. A basic economic argument
would illuminate why:

Drugs/guns are an elastic market. As the supply of drugs/guns goes down,
the prices go up. As the prices of drugs/guns go up, the incentive to enter
the market produces many more suppliers. As the number of suppliers
increase, the availability increases. As the availability increases, the
price goes down. As the prices go down, the market expands.

No combination of legislation and enforcement in existence can beat an
elastic demand curve.

>| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 2
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun society and culture
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 21:35:12 -0400 (EDT)
At 04:59 PM 5/26/96 -0700, you wrote:

>Drugs/guns are an elastic market. As the supply of drugs/guns goes down,
>the prices go up. As the prices of drugs/guns go up, the incentive to enter
>the market produces many more suppliers. As the number of suppliers
>increase, the availability increases. As the availability increases, the
>price goes down. As the prices go down, the market expands.
>
>No combination of legislation and enforcement in existence can beat an
>elastic demand curve.

So the best way to combat such a thing would be to employ a heavy
supply-side drug education program, like the "Just say 'No'" one?

In an attempt to get back on ShadowRun, does anyone have game stats for
various drugs? I've got a player with an Ares Squirt [tm] looking for new
and inventive DMS cocktails... *grin*

--
"This isn't a post made to be debated, this is my view on things."
- TopCat
Message no. 3
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun society and culture
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:12:15 +0100
Ubiquitous said on 21:35/26 May 96...

> >No combination of legislation and enforcement in existence can beat an
> >elastic demand curve.
>
> So the best way to combat such a thing would be to employ a heavy
> supply-side drug education program, like the "Just say 'No'" one?

And allow some sorts of drugs to be sold. No matter what foreign
politicians may say, the hard-drug use in this country is lower than in
most others.

> In an attempt to get back on ShadowRun, does anyone have game stats for
> various drugs? I've got a player with an Ares Squirt [tm] looking for new
> and inventive DMS cocktails... *grin*

Check out Wordman's drugs file, you should find it somewhere at
ftp://nspace.cts.com/pub/Role-Playing/Shadowrun, as well as in Running
Gear that's available from my WWW page.


And in another post:

> Has anyone tried to recreate some of the 1st edition spells which were
> removed from the 2nd edition? I'm looking at creating a "Turn Guns To Goo"
> spell for an NPC magic group.

Again, see my page; Tech Specs this time.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I only wanted something else to do but hang around...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 4
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: Shadowrun society and culture
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 16:14:18 -0700
>So the best way to combat such a thing would be to employ a heavy
>supply-side drug education program, like the "Just say 'No'" one?

That's not the whole plan, but it's a start. Legalize the ones that don't
immediately kill breaks the monopoly currently enjoyed by criminals: only
those willing to break laws can manufacture and distribute. Allowing other
groups to enter the market reduces the high profit margin currently
enjoyed, and provides a legal alternative to the hard core stuff. The hard
core users will always use hard core stuff, but more casual users can be
weaned away from the illegality of the whole thing.

Also, money for treatment, rehabilitation, and education is a good thing.

Regarding Shadowrun, they have the exact same problem with chip usage,
although I would expect it to be less since only the hardcore users want
the mind melting stuff, and "California hots" are legal alternatives (in
some nations).

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 5
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun society and culture
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:15:09 -0700
Adam Getchell wrote:
> You don't see crooks with tanks because: 1) There is a limited supply
> (only a couple of dozen thousand in the world, mostly ex-Soviet)
> compared with firearms 2) The economic expenditure to acquire a tank is
> much greater than that to acquire a firearm 3) Tanks are not very
> portable or concealable 4)The benefits of acquiring and using a tank
> are outweighed by the various difficulties in acquiring/using/hiding
> the thing.

I would have to agree with this for the most part .... but, you have to
keep in mind places like California & Texas, where it is legal to own a
tank now. Examples:
a) Rent A Tank and Tanks R Us in California, they cater to the
film industry and were established at the end of W.W.II.
b) Barrett's Farm near Dallas Texas, a private collection of AFVs
from around the world housed in an under ground complex that
rivals many US military bases. At last estimate from BATF
and the US Army there is sufficient equipment, ordinance,
materiel, and supplies present at this installation to support
battalion level ops for 2 years of heavy combat. It's owned by
Tandy Corp. BTW and until June of '93 was open for public tours.
No one in the area is sure why they shut down the tours, but
staffing has increased dramatically since then and is a good
place to apply for tank jockeys just getting out of the service.
Message no. 6
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun society and culture
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:48:08 GMT + 2:00
@ >So the best way to combat such a thing would be to employ a heavy
@ >supply-side drug education program, like the "Just say 'No'" one?
@
@ That's not the whole plan, but it's a start. Legalize the ones that don't
@ immediately kill breaks the monopoly currently enjoyed by criminals: only
@ those willing to break laws can manufacture and distribute. Allowing other
@ groups to enter the market reduces the high profit margin currently
@ enjoyed, and provides a legal alternative to the hard core stuff. The hard
@ core users will always use hard core stuff, but more casual users can be
@ weaned away from the illegality of the whole thing.

Money is a method, but no-one is willing to spend it. Besides
you'll get all the PC personal on the governments tail. People don't
like it when things suddenly change. The drug education program by
the way is not the way to start. What normally occurs is first a
general survey is done to id the problem and locate it. Then each of
the problem areas are resurveyed and as much data as is possible is
gained. From this the target groups are chosen (and sometimes re-
examined), then the custom solution is worked out. Only then is it
applied to the poplation. Of course this being the ideal it rarely
occurs. Other successful projects are imported, but fail due to their
incompatiablity with the target population. Btw. Never believe the
number of successes any project has, a guestimate is that about 90%+
of all public works projects fail.

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 7
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: Shadowrun society and culture
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 02:49:33 -0700
like it when things suddenly change. The drug education program by
>the way is not the way to start. What normally occurs is first a
>general survey is done to id the problem and locate it. Then each of
>the problem areas are resurveyed and as much data as is possible is
>gained. From this the target groups are chosen (and sometimes re-
>examined), then the custom solution is worked out. Only then is it
>applied to the poplation. Of course this being the ideal it rarely

That's a real generic process, and, funny thing, people engaging in illegal
acts don't tend to cooperate with surveys too well. Kind of hard to gather
good, statistically sound data that way.

Never said it would be 100% effective. Just likely to be more effective
than what's there now, just like neither Prohibition nor the repeal of
Prohibition cured alcoholism.

> Andre'

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 8
From: Hairy Smurf <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun society and culture
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 23:00:24 -0400 (EDT)
At 11:15 5/27/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Adam Getchell wrote:
>> You don't see crooks with tanks because: 1) There is a limited supply
>> (only a couple of dozen thousand in the world, mostly ex-Soviet)
>> compared with firearms 2) The economic expenditure to acquire a tank is
>> much greater than that to acquire a firearm 3) Tanks are not very
>> portable or concealable 4)The benefits of acquiring and using a tank
>> are outweighed by the various difficulties in acquiring/using/hiding
>> the thing.
>
>I would have to agree with this for the most part .... but, you have to
>keep in mind places like California & Texas, where it is legal to own a
>tank now. Examples:
> a) Rent A Tank and Tanks R Us in California, they cater to the
> film industry and were established at the end of W.W.II.
> b) Barrett's Farm near Dallas Texas, a private collection of AFVs
> from around the world housed in an under ground complex that
> rivals many US military bases. At last estimate from BATF
> and the US Army there is sufficient equipment, ordinance,
> materiel, and supplies present at this installation to support
> battalion level ops for 2 years of heavy combat. It's owned by
> Tandy Corp. BTW and until June of '93 was open for public tours.
> No one in the area is sure why they shut down the tours, but
> staffing has increased dramatically since then and is a good
> place to apply for tank jockeys just getting out of the service.
>

Kinda off the subject but it fits into the innuendo I just read in this
post. I recently read about silicon valley companies having to increase
their security. Seems certain individuals think its all the rage to steal
computer chips. Everything from burglary to armed robbery has occured. There
have also been reports of company members stealing and kidnapping. With my
post a couple of months ago about artificail arms that can now feel it seems
the cyberpunk genre is becoming more and more of a reality.

Sasquatch

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| Psychiatrists say that one out of four people are mentally ill. |
| Check three friends. If they're OK, you're it. |
| |
| ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu |
| tech@*******.adelphi.edu blair@*****.adelphi.edu |
| No Website (yet) |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun society and culture
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 00:38:58 -0500 (CDT)
On Tue, 28 May 1996, Hairy Smurf wrote:

> At 11:15 5/27/96 -0700, you wrote:
> >Adam Getchell wrote:
> >> You don't see crooks with tanks because: 1) There is a limited supply
> >> (only a couple of dozen thousand in the world, mostly ex-Soviet)
> >> compared with firearms 2) The economic expenditure to acquire a tank is
> >> much greater than that to acquire a firearm 3) Tanks are not very
> >> portable or concealable 4)The benefits of acquiring and using a tank
> >> are outweighed by the various difficulties in acquiring/using/hiding
> >> the thing.
> >
> >I would have to agree with this for the most part .... but, you have to
> >keep in mind places like California & Texas, where it is legal to own a
> >tank now. Examples:
> > a) Rent A Tank and Tanks R Us in California, they cater to the
> > film industry and were established at the end of W.W.II.
> > b) Barrett's Farm near Dallas Texas, a private collection of AFVs
> > from around the world housed in an under ground complex that
> > rivals many US military bases. At last estimate from BATF
> > and the US Army there is sufficient equipment, ordinance,
> > materiel, and supplies present at this installation to support
> > battalion level ops for 2 years of heavy combat. It's owned by
> > Tandy Corp. BTW and until June of '93 was open for public tours.
> > No one in the area is sure why they shut down the tours, but
> > staffing has increased dramatically since then and is a good
> > place to apply for tank jockeys just getting out of the service.
> >
>
> Kinda off the subject but it fits into the innuendo I just read in this
> post. I recently read about silicon valley companies having to increase
> their security. Seems certain individuals think its all the rage to steal
> computer chips. Everything from burglary to armed robbery has occured. There
> have also been reports of company members stealing and kidnapping. With my
> post a couple of months ago about artificail arms that can now feel it seems
> the cyberpunk genre is becoming more and more of a reality.
>
> Sasquatch

Actually chip stealing is much more of a problem then most people think
(those things are worth far more then the weight in gold) you just don't
hear about it unless some one gets shot or a tape of it gets leaked to the
media.

Stephen

>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> | |
> | Psychiatrists say that one out of four people are mentally ill. |
> | Check three friends. If they're OK, you're it. |
> | |
> | ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu |
> | tech@*******.adelphi.edu blair@*****.adelphi.edu |
> | No Website (yet) |
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

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