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Message no. 1
From: connor@*******.com (Adam Brown)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:46:17 -0500
So, has there been any development on this as of yet? Is there going to
be any push for this project to move forward? I'd love to see this idea
become a reality, not just as a user, but also as someone who would
love to be able to contribute towards it.

--
Adam Brown
connor@*******.com
Message no. 2
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 23:22:23 -0400
On 3-Aug-04, at 4:46 PM, Adam Brown wrote:

> So, has there been any development on this as of yet? Is there going
> to be any push for this project to move forward? I'd love to see this
> idea become a reality, not just as a user, but also as someone who
> would love to be able to contribute towards it.

I have the software setup, but haven't had time to make it look
half-decent nor time to write any boilerplate text about what the
project is about, nor has any of the text ownership issues been
discussed since, well, the last time I tried to discuss it, I think :)

Best,
Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 3
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 20:40:09 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Jury" <adamj@*********.com>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Wiki
[snip]
> I have the software setup, but haven't had time to make it look
> half-decent nor time to write any boilerplate text about what the >
project is about, nor has any of the text ownership issues been
> discussed since, well, the last time I tried to discuss it, I think :)

Well, my first bit will be an expanded table of SR San Francisco's
districts.
--Anders
Message no. 4
From: connor@*******.com (Adam Brown)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 02:38:44 -0500
On Aug 3, 2004, at 10:22 PM, Adam Jury wrote:

>
> On 3-Aug-04, at 4:46 PM, Adam Brown wrote:
>
>> So, has there been any development on this as of yet? Is there going
>> to be any push for this project to move forward? I'd love to see this
>> idea become a reality, not just as a user, but also as someone who
>> would love to be able to contribute towards it.
>
> I have the software setup, but haven't had time to make it look
> half-decent nor time to write any boilerplate text about what the
> project is about, nor has any of the text ownership issues been
> discussed since, well, the last time I tried to discuss it, I think :)
>

Well, I'm not too picky about the text ownership issues. I'd be fine
with just public domaining any work I'd contribute. After all, it is
supposed to be a public resource and I have not issues treating it as
such. So, whatever the people that do care about such things decide is
fine by me. Although I think the GNU FDL is probably an adequate
license. Although I like both the FDL and the Creative Commons license,
I'll put my vote in for the FDL.

As far as the look for the site goes, I was pretty much expecting some
sort of Wikipedia-like look at least for the first round. Perhaps if it
grows substantially it could be given a Shadowrun specific look.

For a project like this, I think getting the wiki in place and letting
people start to contribute to it is the primary concern, especially
before the initial interest subsides.


--
Adam Brown
connor@*******.com
Message no. 5
From: quemener.yves@****.fr (Yves Quemener)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:10:21 +0200
> For a project like this, I think getting the wiki in place and letting
> people start to contribute to it is the primary concern, especially
> before the initial interest subsides.

Well, I wouldn't mention it again if you hadn't say it but when the idea
of a shadowrun wiki arose, I was putting into place a shadowrun wiki and
began to fill it a bit before making any annoucement. I stopped doing
this when I saw that an 'official' dumpshock wiki would come live.
However, if you want to fill some text into a (mostly empty) shadowrun
wiki, you can do this here : http://shadowpedia.free.fr/
When the real shadowrun wiki goes live, it will be easy to transfer all
contents into the new one so there will be no work in vain. Most (all?)
of the pages there are currently stubs, and intend to give a structure
to the wiki, fell free to ignore/complete/modify them. If you have a
lengthy piece of text that you just want to add to the wiki and don't
care about where to place it, just put it into 'unsorted content'

Finally, I want to make it clear that I do not intend to make a
competitor to the future dumpshock wiki, in fact, I'm very impatient to
see this happen. When it goes live, I'll transfer all contents on my
site to dumpshock's and probably shut mine down and make a redirection
to dumpshock's one. But if some people have projects in mind around
which they want to collaborate, they can on this site. I also hope it
would provide valuable feedbacks to Adam and those working at setting
the wiki (are there other people involved in this with Adam ?)

Iv

PS : please be indulgent with my rusty english, I don't use it often :-(...
Message no. 6
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 09:23:45 -0400
On 4-Aug-04, at 3:38 AM, Adam Brown wrote:

> Well, I'm not too picky about the text ownership issues. I'd be fine
> with just public domaining any work I'd contribute. After all, it is
> supposed to be a public resource and I have not issues treating it as
> such. So, whatever the people that do care about such things decide is
> fine by me. Although I think the GNU FDL is probably an adequate
> license. Although I like both the FDL and the Creative Commons
> license, I'll put my vote in for the FDL.

Works well enough for me.

> As far as the look for the site goes, I was pretty much expecting
> some sort of Wikipedia-like look at least for the first round. Perhaps
> if it grows substantially it could be given a Shadowrun specific look.

Actually the default look is much more plain than Wikipedia; I wanted
to move it towards Wikipedia-look, but just don't have the time. Ah
well.


> For a project like this, I think getting the wiki in place and letting
> people start to contribute to it is the primary concern, especially
> before the initial interest subsides.

True enough. http://wiki.dumpshock.com to start, then. :-)

Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 7
From: quemener.yves@****.fr (Yves Quemener)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:30:38 +0200
>> For a project like this, I think getting the wiki in place and
>> letting people start to contribute to it is the primary concern,
>> especially before the initial interest subsides.
>
>
> True enough. http://wiki.dumpshock.com to start, then. :-)
>
Yay! No edit button yet ? The discussion page didn't save changes
either. I hope I didn't break havoc by creating a Megacorporations page :-(

Anyway, it looks great!

Yves
Message no. 8
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 11:13:29 -0400
On 4-Aug-04, at 10:30 AM, Yves Quemener wrote:
>>
> Yay! No edit button yet ? The discussion page didn't save changes
> either. I hope I didn't break havoc by creating a Megacorporations
> page :-(

The front page can't be edited, and I haven't had time yet to add
boilerplate or WizKids legal stuff or anything like that. It's very
much "pre-release" right now.

Go ahead and as add pages as appropriate, keeping in mind that the
current intent for SWW is for it to be about the Sixth World, not the
Shadowrun game, malleable as the difference is :)

Best,
Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 9
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:51:56 -0700 (PDT)
> Go ahead and as add pages as appropriate, keeping in mind that the
> current intent for SWW is for it to be about the Sixth World, not
> the Shadowrun game, malleable as the difference is :)
>
> Best,
> Adam

I'll second that. Try to avoid a lot of game mechanics as much as
possible. Think of this is as an encyclopedia about the world where
shadowruns take place. :)

In general, we should avoid reprinting information one could get from
a sourcebook already in print. We are trying to fill the gaps
between canon content and real world knowledge, first and foremost.
This started with a discussion of what was missing in the sourcebook
where Portand is described. So the idea would be to discribe more
details about Portland, starting from the present day and
extrapolating forward to 206x. Address the questions the sourcebook
never even asked, let alone answered. Megacorps are good sixth world
information, but also covered other places. Much more could be
created about corporation at the AA level and below.

Glad to see interest and extremely pleased to see the wiki up (uber
kudos Adam!). :D

======Korishinzo
--no rest for the wiki-d







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Message no. 10
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 11:58:41 -0400
On 4-Aug-04, at 11:51 AM, Ice Heart wrote:

> Glad to see interest and extremely pleased to see the wiki up (uber
> kudos Adam!). :D

I should mention that Mark Imbriaco did the heavy lifting of installing
the actual Wiki software. So far my contributions are, uh, pasting in
the FDL and working up a 30 second logo. :)

I have some cool ideas though, just need the time to babble about them
adequately.

Best,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 11
From: quemener.yves@****.fr (Yves Quemener)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 18:43:17 +0200
>In general, we should avoid reprinting information one could get from
>a sourcebook already in print. We are trying to fill the gaps
>between canon content and real world knowledge, first and foremost.
>This started with a discussion of what was missing in the sourcebook
>where Portand is described. So the idea would be to discribe more
>details about Portland, starting from the present day and
>extrapolating forward to 206x. Address the questions the sourcebook
>never even asked, let alone answered. Megacorps are good sixth world
>information, but also covered other places. Much more could be
>created about corporation at the AA level and below.
>
>
I think the style used for the 6th world atlas would be a good example :
say where the canon sources are, summarize some cannon facts in a few
phrases. Personally I would have liked a true encyclopedia, where canon
and unofficial informations would be centralized but I understand the
issues Wizkids would have with that. Maybe a locked page with the
writting guidelines would be a good idea. Or we can even try to come
over with one.

>Glad to see interest and extremely pleased to see the wiki up (uber
>kudos Adam!). :D*
>
Yup! Kudos Adam and Mark!
Message no. 12
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 09:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
> I should mention that Mark Imbriaco did the heavy lifting of
> installing the actual Wiki software. So far my contributions are,
> uh, pasting in the FDL and working up a 30 second logo. :)

Ahh, gomen... please pass a suitable portion of the uber kudos on to
Mark for me. :)

Let me know if and when you need more hands working behind the
scenes. In addition to my own skills, I have a table top gamer with
extensive wiki experience. We could tap him for some heavy lifting,
as it were.

> I have some cool ideas though, just need the time to babble about
> them adequately.

RL has this nasty habit of intruding on our more frivolous pursuits.
I think we need sponsors so we can focus on gaming. I wonder of Nike
has a geek division. I'd wear their shoes while gaming and posting
online. :p

======Korishinzo]
--Official <insert product> of gamers everywhere!



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Message no. 13
From: jeremie.bouillon@****.fr (Jeremie Bouillon)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 19:39:46 +0200
Le 22:46 03/08/2004, Adam Brown écrivait :
>So, has there been any development on this as of yet? Is there going to
>be any push for this project to move forward? I'd love to see this idea
>become a reality, not just as a user, but also as someone who would
>love to be able to contribute towards it.

I am somewhat working on a french shadowrun wiki plateform (the idea cross,
and cross again in my mind for several month now since I've discovered
WikiPedia, I guess it's the same thing about -I don't know who- started the
idea somewhere and leaked it here ­or started it here, I may I've missed
it), in the goal of consolidate several ressources that are best done in a
cooperative and freeform way.

But an english (as in international) SR wiki would be a great idea,
Dumpshock could surely provide the adequate server for that...
Message no. 14
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 11:11:40 -0700 (PDT)
> I am somewhat working on a french shadowrun wiki plateform (the
> idea cross,
> and cross again in my mind for several month now since I've
> discovered
> WikiPedia, I guess it's the same thing about -I don't know who-
> started the
> idea somewhere and leaked it here ­or started it here, I may I've
> missed
> it), in the goal of consolidate several ressources that are best
> done in a
> cooperative and freeform way.
>
> But an english (as in international) SR wiki would be a great idea,
>
> Dumpshock could surely provide the adequate server for that...

Well, I suggested the idea a while back after someone started a
thread about the lack if are-specific info in sourcebooks. And
dumpshock is, in fact, the host server for the Sixth World Wiki. :)

======Korishinzo
--no rest for the wiki-d




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Message no. 15
From: jeremie.bouillon@****.fr (Jeremie Bouillon)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 20:58:28 +0200
Le 20:11 04/08/2004, Ice Heart écrivait :
>Well, I suggested the idea a while back after someone started a
>thread about the lack if are-specific info in sourcebooks.

Lack of proper SUbject then, it's all your fault :-p

>And
>dumpshock is, in fact, the host server for the Sixth World Wiki. :)

I've seen, I'm already registered. Trying to figure out what Adam want to
do with it, something along an "in character shadowland-like" site I
think... :-)
Message no. 16
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:05:59 -0400
On 4-Aug-04, at 2:58 PM, Jeremie Bouillon wrote:

> I've seen, I'm already registered. Trying to figure out what Adam want
> to do with it, something along an "in character shadowland-like" site
> I think... :-)

I want people to stop caring about what I want to do with it. :-)

The original idea was for the wiki to be used to gather and build
material on areas of the Sixth World that FASA and FanPro haven't
focused on yet. Some people had some other ideas on what the wiki could
be used for. It can be used for all of those things, and I encourage
people to go ahead and do so.

The wiki is not mine; it belongs to everyone. I will almost certainly
be using it to compile resources that I think I will find useful, and I
hope it produces other things that I will find useful, but, please,
worry about what you think it should be used for, not what I think it
should be used for. :-)

Best,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 17
From: connor@*******.com (Adam Brown)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:17:15 -0500
On Aug 4, 2004, at 8:23 AM, Adam Jury wrote:

>> For a project like this, I think getting the wiki in place and
>> letting people start to contribute to it is the primary concern,
>> especially before the initial interest subsides.
>
> True enough. http://wiki.dumpshock.com to start, then. :-)

Well, time for me to start getting all those old notes together then.

Also, you mention that the content will be more centered around the
Sixth World as opposed to Shadowrun. Meaning more of a
people/places/events type content focus as opposed to a bunch of gear
and archetypes and stats and what not, correct?

Just wanting to clarify that distinction...

--
Adam Brown
connor@*******.com
Message no. 18
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:19:57 -0700 (PDT)
Adam said:

> I want people to stop caring about what I want to do with it. :-)

In point of fact, Adama only volunteered to work on the nuts and
bolts aspect of this project. Others, such as myself, volunteered to
oversee content. For the most part, content is unlimited. We are
not going to be reproducing sourcebooks, only referencing them. We
are going to be avoiding game mechanics as much as possible. Within
those parameters, anything relevent to the Sixth World is acceptable
and encouraged. While geographic information was the impetus for the
original suggestion, any useful information would be fitting. Do you
have a corporation you've designed and want to share in the Sixth
World setting? Sounds good. How about favorite NPCs you want to
share? Don't post the character sheet, but the story and description
would be fine. Policlubs you've designed? Absolutely. Start
posting. Once content starts to show up, we can begin indexing it,
putting it where it is best suited.

======Korishinzo
--no rest for the wiki-d



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Message no. 19
From: jeremie.bouillon@****.fr (Jeremie Bouillon)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 21:27:23 +0200
Le 21:19 04/08/2004, Ice Heart écrivait :
>For the most part, content is unlimited. We are
>not going to be reproducing sourcebooks, only referencing them. We
>are going to be avoiding game mechanics as much as possible. Within
>those parameters, anything relevent to the Sixth World is acceptable
>and encouraged.

I think a good start would be to get a way to get a way to clearly specify
what's canon and what's non (if you want to stay "in character", a sign or
a code will do the trick).

Something like :
- A list a all corporations, with there Corporate Court rating, would be canon
- A new London anarch policlub is not canon, but doesn't go "against"
published material
- A description of Dunkelzhan as a master bug, slave lover of X, etc. (if
that kind of thing is accepted) is clearly "anti-canon" but some may want
to read/use things like that

It's not crucial, but it will help not re-editing all the pages in several
weeks to add the sign/code/tag/field about that :-)
Message no. 20
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:30:51 -0700 (PDT)
> Also, you mention that the content will be more centered around the
>
> Sixth World as opposed to Shadowrun. Meaning more of a
> people/places/events type content focus as opposed to a bunch of
> gear and archetypes and stats and what not, correct?
>
> Just wanting to clarify that distinction...

Yes. There are already dozens of online resources for SR
game-specific content (new gear, spells, NPCs, etc). The Sixth World
Wiki is intended to be more along the lines of an encyclopedia about
the background against which the SR game is set. One of the first
things I plan to upload is a company I use in all my games, a 24-hour
coffee shop/matrix cafe somewhat like a *bucks on steroids. I am
also planning on posting an essay about HMHVV, sort of one
parabiologists take on the disease. It will explain the way I run it
in my games, but all from an "IC" point of view, sans mechanics.

So yes, people/places/etc, not piles of stats on new gear and
archetypes. :)

======Korishinzo
--no rest for the wiki-d





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Message no. 21
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:37:35 -0700 (PDT)
> I think a good start would be to get a way to get a way to clearly
> specify
> what's canon and what's non (if you want to stay "in character", a
> sign or
> a code will do the trick).
>
> Something like :
> - A list a all corporations, with there Corporate Court rating,
> would be canon
> - A new London anarch policlub is not canon, but doesn't go
> "against"
> published material
> - A description of Dunkelzhan as a master bug, slave lover of X,
> etc. (if
> that kind of thing is accepted) is clearly "anti-canon" but some
> may want
> to read/use things like that
>
> It's not crucial, but it will help not re-editing all the pages in
> several
> weeks to add the sign/code/tag/field about that :-)

Well, canon content will be small references...

tag = Ref

Canon friendly, new content can be the default...

tag = none

And the alternate universe stuff can be noted as such...

tag = Alt

Other tags can be created as needed.

======Korishinzo
--no rest for the wiki-d




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Message no. 22
From: snicker@*********.net (Snicker)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 23:10:18 -0500
Oddly enough, the server itself seems to be running about 20 minutes
fast. Could that be corrected? Also, mayhaps "trick" the system into
posting all changes as "2064" instead of 2004 ;) Might add to the flavour.

Snicker

At 08:23 AM 8/4/2004, you wrote:

>On 4-Aug-04, at 3:38 AM, Adam Brown wrote:
>
>>Well, I'm not too picky about the text ownership issues. I'd be fine with
>>just public domaining any work I'd contribute. After all, it is supposed
>>to be a public resource and I have not issues treating it as such. So,
>>whatever the people that do care about such things decide is fine by me.
>>Although I think the GNU FDL is probably an adequate license. Although I
>>like both the FDL and the Creative Commons license, I'll put my vote in
>>for the FDL.
>
>Works well enough for me.
>
>> As far as the look for the site goes, I was pretty much expecting some
>> sort of Wikipedia-like look at least for the first round. Perhaps if it
>> grows substantially it could be given a Shadowrun specific look.
>
>Actually the default look is much more plain than Wikipedia; I wanted to
>move it towards Wikipedia-look, but just don't have the time. Ah well.
>
>
>>For a project like this, I think getting the wiki in place and letting
>>people start to contribute to it is the primary concern, especially
>>before the initial interest subsides.
>
>True enough. http://wiki.dumpshock.com to start, then. :-)
>
>Adam
>
>--
>Adam Jury
>Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
>
Message no. 23
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 00:22:24 -0400
On 5-Aug-04, at 12:10 AM, Snicker wrote:

> Oddly enough, the server itself seems to be running about 20 minutes
> fast. Could that be corrected? Also, mayhaps "trick" the system into
> posting all changes as "2064" instead of 2004 ;) Might add to the
> flavour.

I'll poke at the server time tomorrow, but definitely no 2064 stuff;
this is a real world resource. :)

BTW, please put your replies under posts - list guidelines and all that.

Best,
Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 24
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:10:38 +0200
According to Ice Heart, on Wednesday 04 August 2004 21:19 the word on the
street was...

> In point of fact, Adama only volunteered

I thought Lorne Green was dead...? :)

--
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... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 25
From: quemener.yves@****.fr (Yves Quemener)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 11:26:03 +0200
>> Oddly enough, the server itself seems to be running about 20 minutes
>> fast. Could that be corrected? Also, mayhaps "trick" the system
>> into posting all changes as "2064" instead of 2004 ;) Might add to
>> the flavour.
>
I have also difficulties at saving modifications. It is very odd, once
reloaded, the page doesn't show modifications but if you look into
history, the modifications have been taken into account. By '20 minutes
fast' you mean that it takes 20 minutes for the server to take the
modifications into account ? It seems that some modifs are just ignored
(see Jack London's modif in 'Summary proposition' history). Very odd...

Yves
Message no. 26
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:44:09 -0400
On 5-Aug-04, at 5:26 AM, Yves Quemener wrote:

> I have also difficulties at saving modifications. It is very odd, once
> reloaded, the page doesn't show modifications but if you look into
> history, the modifications have been taken into account.

I've noticed that occasionally I have to do a hard-refresh with Safari
to get newly edited data to show up.

> By '20 minutes fast' you mean that it takes 20 minutes for the server
> to take the modifications into account ? It seems that some modifs are
> just ignored (see Jack London's modif in 'Summary proposition'
> history). Very odd..

I'm seeing two modifications from Jack London for that page, on the
4th. They appear to have been applied fine...

Best,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 27
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:24:43 -0700 (PDT)
--- Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:
> On 4-Aug-04, at 3:38 AM, Adam Brown wrote:
> > For a project like this, I think getting the wiki in place and
> letting
> > people start to contribute to it is the primary concern, especially
>
> > before the initial interest subsides.
>
> True enough. http://wiki.dumpshock.com to start, then. :-)

I added my first change, a proposed taxonomy of AA corporations (list
by geographic region and by discipline), and put in a couple of
placeholder categories. The thing I don't know is whether a geographic
region should consist of a city or a government.

I'd like to get a basic outline in order and then agree by consensus to
keep it that way pending any good suggestions. Other people seem to be
most interested in inserting their favorite content, while I'm more
interested in putting the overall structure in place to support the
content.

I'm wondering who else has an interest in putting together the outline,
and whether people mind having their content shifted around all over
the place while we do it. For example, we already have two ways to get
to the Megacorporations page. (main page and summary page)

Mark




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Message no. 28
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:39:50 -0700 (PDT)
> I'm wondering who else has an interest in putting together the
> outline, and whether people mind having their content shifted
> around all over the place while we do it. For example, we already
> have two ways to get to the Megacorporations page. (main page and
> summary page)

Some standardized outlines are good. However, my (limited)
experience with wiki's has been that infrastructure can be added
concurrently with content, simply shuffling items to where they need
to be at a later date. I think we need people working on both the
basic framework of the wiki and on the "fill". :)

======Korishinzo
--no rest for the wiki-d



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Message no. 29
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:12:18 -0700 (PDT)
--- Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> > I'm wondering who else has an interest in putting together the
> > outline, and whether people mind having their content shifted
> > around all over the place while we do it. For example, we already
> > have two ways to get to the Megacorporations page. (main page and
> > summary page)
>
> Some standardized outlines are good. However, my (limited)
> experience with wiki's has been that infrastructure can be added
> concurrently with content, simply shuffling items to where they need
> to be at a later date. I think we need people working on both the
> basic framework of the wiki and on the "fill". :)

No arguments here, just wondering who else wants to work on framework.
:)

Mark




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Message no. 30
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:51:37 -0400
On 5-Aug-04, at 1:12 PM, Mark S wrote:

> No arguments here, just wondering who else wants to work on framework.
> :)

Just FYI, I just picked up a rushed freelance layout job, so I'll be
too busy to work on the Wiki over the next few days.

[Wicked fucking cool layout job, though!]

Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 31
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:56:26 -0700 (PDT)
> No arguments here, just wondering who else wants to work on
> framework.
> :)
>
> Mark

I will be diving into the wiki this weekend, getting up to speed. I
have recruited the aid of one of my table top players who has used
wiki software extensively at work. He will be be jumping in this
weekend as well. His interest is much more in the framework and
underlying functionality.

======Korishinzo
--no rest for the wiki-d



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Message no. 32
From: connor@*******.com (Adam Brown)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 16:18:14 -0500
On Aug 5, 2004, at 11:24 AM, Mark S wrote:

> --- Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:
>> On 4-Aug-04, at 3:38 AM, Adam Brown wrote:
>>> For a project like this, I think getting the wiki in place and
>> letting
>>> people start to contribute to it is the primary concern, especially
>>
>>> before the initial interest subsides.
>>
>> True enough. http://wiki.dumpshock.com to start, then. :-)
>
> I added my first change, a proposed taxonomy of AA corporations (list
> by geographic region and by discipline), and put in a couple of
> placeholder categories. The thing I don't know is whether a geographic
> region should consist of a city or a government.
>

According to Corp Download all A, AA or AAA rated corps are all
multinational corps. A-level corps seem to be described as the ones
that are 'barely multinational' or just starting to come into their
own. AA rated corps are the ones with extraterritoriality and Lone Star
and Transys Neuronet are included as example AA corps. AAA of course
are the Big 10.

With that aside, I think classification of AA corps shouldn't be based
on geography, unless we class geography to mean their HQ. Lone Star has
contracts all over the place and trying to put them into a geographic
category would be pretty hard to do unless you limited it to their HQ
in Texas. AA corps have extraterritoriality so I think classification
needs to probably be by discipline or category and not by physical
location. Since many AA's could have a widespread presence in several
parts of the world.

> I'd like to get a basic outline in order and then agree by consensus to
> keep it that way pending any good suggestions. Other people seem to be
> most interested in inserting their favorite content, while I'm more
> interested in putting the overall structure in place to support the
> content.
>

While I do have my favorite content I'd like to add, I'd definitely
like to see some sort of organizational framework put up first.
Especially since I've never really worked with a wiki before so I'm not
confidant about throwing up content just yet.

> I'm wondering who else has an interest in putting together the outline,
> and whether people mind having their content shifted around all over
> the place while we do it. For example, we already have two ways to get
> to the Megacorporations page. (main page and summary page)
>

I definitely thing an outline and perhaps even a category system should
be high on the list of organizational features. I don't know if
Wikipedia has one, but I also think it would be nice to do an Index,
where every entry could just be listed alphabetically with X entries to
a page. Not sure how viable that is in the wiki format though.

Anyways, just a few more thoughts...

--
Adam Brown
connor@*******.com
Message no. 33
From: me@******.net (X3K6A2)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 23:31:35 +0200
> I also think it would be nice to do an Index,
> where every entry could just be listed alphabetically with X entries to
> a page. Not sure how viable that is in the wiki format though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Allpages
Message no. 34
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:48:03 -0700 (PDT)
--- Adam Brown <connor@*******.com> wrote:
> On Aug 5, 2004, at 11:24 AM, Mark S wrote:
> > --- Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:
> > I added my first change, a proposed taxonomy of AA corporations
> (list
> > by geographic region and by discipline), and put in a couple of
> > placeholder categories. The thing I don't know is whether a
> geographic
> > region should consist of a city or a government.
> >
>
> According to Corp Download all A, AA or AAA rated corps are all
> multinational corps. A-level corps seem to be described as the ones
> that are 'barely multinational' or just starting to come into their
> own. AA rated corps are the ones with extraterritoriality and Lone
> Star
> and Transys Neuronet are included as example AA corps. AAA of course
> are the Big 10.
>
> With that aside, I think classification of AA corps shouldn't be
> based
> on geography, unless we class geography to mean their HQ. Lone Star
> has
> contracts all over the place and trying to put them into a geographic
>
> category would be pretty hard to do unless you limited it to their HQ
>
> in Texas. AA corps have extraterritoriality so I think classification
>
> needs to probably be by discipline or category and not by physical
> location. Since many AA's could have a widespread presence in several
>
> parts of the world.

Oops :) I swear I read that definition of an AA corp *somewhere*. I
may be thinking of an A corp or something. Perhaps A corps should use
that classification scheme, and AA should simply be listed
alphabetically? Is the only difference between AA and AAA the seat on
the Corporate Court?

I moved my proposed AA taxonomy to A corporations, and proposed a
simple alphabetic classification for AA corps.

Mark





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Message no. 35
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:50:40 -0700 (PDT)
--- Adam Brown <connor@*******.com> wrote:
> While I do have my favorite content I'd like to add, I'd definitely
> like to see some sort of organizational framework put up first.
> Especially since I've never really worked with a wiki before so I'm
> not
> confidant about throwing up content just yet.

I wouldn't worry about this too much. Worst case, some or all of these
two things happen:

1) The page linking to your page is reorganized. If the link
disappears entirely, you show up on the orphaned page list and we fix
it.
2) Your page's name is unclear or conflicting, and we rename it.
3) Your page is too small or too large in scope. We merge it into
another page, probably under its own section, or we break it up into
multiple pages, as needed.

Mark


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Message no. 36
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3))
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:47:45 +1000
>>
>>> True enough. http://wiki.dumpshock.com to start, then. :-)
>
>> I added my first change, a proposed taxonomy of AA corporations (list
>> by geographic region and by discipline), and put in a couple of
>> placeholder categories. The thing I don't know is whether a geographic
>> region should consist of a city or a government.
>

>According to Corp Download all A, AA or AAA rated corps are all
>multinational corps. A-level corps seem to be described as the ones
>that are 'barely multinational' or just starting to come into their
>own. AA rated corps are the ones with extraterritoriality and Lone Star
>and Transys Neuronet are included as example AA corps. AAA of course
>are the Big 10.

>With that aside, I think classification of AA corps shouldn't be based
>on geography, unless we class geography to mean their HQ. Lone Star has
>contracts all over the place and trying to put them into a geographic
>category would be pretty hard to do unless you limited it to their HQ
>in Texas. AA corps have extraterritoriality so I think classification
>needs to probably be by discipline or category and not by physical
>location. Since many AA's could have a widespread presence in several
>parts of the world.

And how would PMCs (Private Military Contractors. IE Merc groups) fall into
this?
Somewhere between A and AA or somewhere between Bushleague and A?
Message no. 37
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 19:33:41 -0700 (PDT)
> Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3)
> Subject: RE: Shadowrun Wiki

> And how would PMCs (Private Military Contractors. IE Merc
> groups) fall into this? Somewhere between A and AA or
> somewhere between Bushleague and A?

My first thought is to lump them all under the same discipline, in the
A
category. My second thought is to find a place for them next to
organized crime organizations and famous runner teams, as I find it
difficult to think of them as proper Corporations.

Mark




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Message no. 38
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:16:17 -0700 (PDT)
> > And how would PMCs (Private Military Contractors. IE Merc
> > groups) fall into this? Somewhere between A and AA or
> > somewhere between Bushleague and A?

> My first thought is to lump them all under the same discipline, in
> the A category. My second thought is to find a place for them
> next to organized crime organizations and famous runner teams, as >
I find it difficult to think of them as proper Corporations.

I would put Mercenary Companies in their own category. They are not
a corporation per se. Nor are they a crime Syndicate. Mercs need
their own entry, and specific merc groups can be linked to that
entry.

Runner teams are a wholly seperate category again. They do not
really act like a Syndicate or like a corporation. They are closer
to mercs, in that they are paramilitary.

Just a few ¥ from the sidelines.

======Korishinzo
--no rest for the wiki-d



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Message no. 39
From: snicker@*********.net (Snicker)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 01:09:41 -0500
I don't know much about Wiki (I used E2 a lot), but I was wondering if the
standard is to use the singular or the plural of an item in the link title?

Snicker
Message no. 40
From: quemener.yves@****.fr (Yves Quemener)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:13:28 +0200
X3K6A2 wrote:

>>I also think it would be nice to do an Index,
>>where every entry could just be listed alphabetically with X entries to
>>a page. Not sure how viable that is in the wiki format though.
>>
>>
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Allpages
>
http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php?title=Special:Allpages
Message no. 41
From: quemener.yves@****.fr (Yves Quemener)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:33:28 +0200
Adam Brown wrote:

> While I do have my favorite content I'd like to add, I'd definitely
> like to see some sort of organizational framework put up first.
> Especially since I've never really worked with a wiki before so I'm
> not confidant about throwing up content just yet.

I just created a page 'unsorted content' if you are unsure, just put
your new page there. There you can confidently throw up your content :-)

Yves
Message no. 42
From: connor@*******.com (Adam Brown)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:56:46 -0500
On Aug 6, 2004, at 3:33 AM, Yves Quemener wrote:

> Adam Brown wrote:
>
>> While I do have my favorite content I'd like to add, I'd definitely
>> like to see some sort of organizational framework put up first.
>> Especially since I've never really worked with a wiki before so I'm
>> not confidant about throwing up content just yet.
>
> I just created a page 'unsorted content' if you are unsure, just put
> your new page there. There you can confidently throw up your content
> :-)
>

Well, then it's just a matter of getting the content ready for posting.
I don't really want to use the wiki as a place to put up a draft of
something. At least not at this point.

--
Adam Brown
connor@*******.com
Message no. 43
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:49:28 -0700 (PDT)
--- Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> > > And how would PMCs (Private Military Contractors. IE Merc
> > > groups) fall into this? Somewhere between A and AA or
> > > somewhere between Bushleague and A?
>
> > My first thought is to lump them all under the same discipline, in
> > the A category. My second thought is to find a place for them
> > next to organized crime organizations and famous runner teams, as >
> I find it difficult to think of them as proper Corporations.
>
> I would put Mercenary Companies in their own category. They are not
> a corporation per se. Nor are they a crime Syndicate. Mercs need
> their own entry, and specific merc groups can be linked to that
> entry.
>
> Runner teams are a wholly seperate category again. They do not
> really act like a Syndicate or like a corporation. They are closer
> to mercs, in that they are paramilitary.
>
> Just a few ¥ from the sidelines.

The problem with this approach is that I'm not sure we really want Merc
companies, crime syndicates, and runner teams all taking up space on
the summary page. The rationale for second suggestion is that you
would then be able to fit them all into an "Important organizations"
page, rather than making the summary page too long.




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Message no. 44
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:14:31 +0100
Is there any chance the people interested in the Shadowrun Wiki material
could form a group on Yahoo or some such place and do their discussions
there, rather than on this list?

It just that whenever the topic gets mention I (and everyone else who
shares my disinterest in the minutia of setting it up... I'll wait to
read the stuff that gets posted on it when its done) get bombarded with
dozens of emails I have no interest in, and precious little else gets
chance to be heard.

Matt


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Message no. 45
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:48:43 -0400
On 6-Aug-04, at 12:14 PM, Matthew Bond wrote:

> Is there any chance the people interested in the Shadowrun Wiki
> material
> could form a group on Yahoo or some such place and do their discussions
> there, rather than on this list?

Personally, I don't think that the wiki project has enough momentum to
"fork" from this list yet. I obviously can't stop someone from setting
up a second group to discuss it, but I don't think it would be a good
idea. Hopefully the wiki discussion on this list will draw other
contributors in. Plus, given how light the traffic has been on RN as of
late [I don't even recall one post mentioning Shadows of Europe yet...]
and the small number of Wiki threads [despite the number of posts] it
isn't too difficult to simply killfile wiki-related threads.

Best,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 46
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:54:14 -0700 (PDT)
> The problem with this approach is that I'm not sure we really want
> Merc companies, crime syndicates, and runner teams all taking up
> space on the summary page. The rationale for second suggestion is
> that you would then be able to fit them all into an "Important
> organizations" page, rather than making the summary page too long.

Well, without thinking too hard about this, my impulse would be a
tree structure.

Organizations
-->Criminal
------>Syndicates
------>Gangs
------>Runner Groups
-->Legal
------>Policlubs
------>Mercenary Companies

Corporations
-->AAA
-->AA
-->A
-->Bush-league

In time, portions of one entry will reference others, such as A-level
corporations which are fronts for Syndicates. That is one of the
things content admins like myself will be responsible for.

======Korishinzo
--no rest for the wiki-d




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Message no. 47
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:57:25 -0700 (PDT)
--- Matthew Bond <mattgbond@********.com> wrote:

> Is there any chance the people interested in the Shadowrun Wiki
> material
> could form a group on Yahoo or some such place and do their
> discussions
> there, rather than on this list?
>
> It just that whenever the topic gets mention I (and everyone else
> who
> shares my disinterest in the minutia of setting it up... I'll wait
> to
> read the stuff that gets posted on it when its done) get bombarded
> with
> dozens of emails I have no interest in, and precious little else
> gets
> chance to be heard.
>
> Matt

Mail Filter:

'Subject contains' -- "Shadowrun Wiki"

--match all text

Move to: Folder: Trash

Just a thought. :)

======Korishinzo
--no rest for the wiki-d



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Message no. 48
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:07:32 -0700 (PDT)
--- Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> Well, without thinking too hard about this, my impulse would be a
> tree structure.
>
> Organizations
> -->Criminal
> ------>Syndicates
> ------>Gangs
> ------>Runner Groups
> -->Legal
> ------>Policlubs
> ------>Mercenary Companies
>
> Corporations
> -->AAA
> -->AA
> -->A
> -->Bush-league

I'm a firm believer in not thinking too hard when it comes to wiki. It
looks good to me, so I added these changes.

I also think that most of the sections in the summary are getting
unwieldy and are ready to become their own pages. Maybe during lunch
break.

Mark



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Message no. 49
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:47:29 -0700 (PDT)
Two things:

1) http://wiki.dumpshock.com/ and the associated subpages report the
following:

Fatal error: out of dynamic memory in yy_create_buffer() in Unknown on
line 0

2) I took a big whack at the summary page on Tuesday or so, and it was
vaguely organized into subpages. When the wiki's back up, some
feedback would be appreciated. The big remaining issues I see are what
to do with non-canon submissions, and what should be done with stuff
like the Tir Tairngire entry, which looks like it's 5 pages quoted
verbatim out of NAGNA.

Mark


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Message no. 50
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:41:31 -0400
On 13-Aug-04, at 4:47 PM, Mark S wrote:

> Two things:
>
> 1) http://wiki.dumpshock.com/ and the associated subpages report the
> following:
>
> Fatal error: out of dynamic memory in yy_create_buffer() in Unknown on
> line 0

Fixed. Now let's just hope the incoming hurricane doesn't knock out
power to the area. :-)

> 2) I took a big whack at the summary page on Tuesday or so, and it was
> vaguely organized into subpages. When the wiki's back up, some
> feedback would be appreciated. The big remaining issues I see are what
> to do with non-canon submissions, and what should be done with stuff
> like the Tir Tairngire entry, which looks like it's 5 pages quoted
> verbatim out of NAGNA.

Well, if it's quoted verbatim, it should absolutely be deleted unless
it looks like it's within fair use. Taking a quick look at it, though,
it just looks like a summary and some original stuff.

Best,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 51
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 00:19:51 -0700 (PDT)
Does the owner of a wiki have the legal responsibility
to keep it free of copyrighted material (messageboards
rarely get sued either, do they)? If not, my attitude
would be one of retaining anything which hasn't been
flagged as copyrighted by copyright-holding parties
(i.e.: retain until the material offends the
copyright-holding parties and a nastygram is sent),
but I haven't a clue what one's legal position would
be there (I assume anyone providing access to
copyrighted material can be shut down at least
temporarily by the copyright-holding party if they
persist, warned or not, regardless of the reason why
they persist).
Naturally, given that the Shadowrun wiki is likely to
be offending one particular copyright-holding party, I
suppose it would be pleasant for all involved if a
limited degree of quotation were permitted... though I
doubt Wizkids has the resources to employ someone to
keep tabs on a sufficiently huge Shadowrun wiki....
Alternatively one can start demanding that people
start creatively paraphrasing canon or risk having
their entry removed when a lack of such activity is
detected (*shock, horror*).

Cheers,

Jan Jaap

> 2) I took a big whack at the summary page on
> Tuesday or so, and it was
> vaguely organized into subpages. When the wiki's
> back up, some
> feedback would be appreciated. The big remaining
> issues I see are what
> to do with non-canon submissions, and what should be
> done with stuff
> like the Tir Tairngire entry, which looks like it's
> 5 pages quoted
> verbatim out of NAGNA.




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Message no. 52
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:00:03 -0400
On 14-Aug-04, at 3:19 AM, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

> Does the owner of a wiki have the legal responsibility
> to keep it free of copyrighted material (messageboards
> rarely get sued either, do they)?

I feel a moral responsibility to treat well the various companies that
have treated the Shadowrun fan-base so well. Dumpshock has always taken
an anti-copyright infringement stance, and will continue to do so

Best,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 53
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:43:00 -0700 (PDT)
In that case, given that the Wiki needs to be both
useful and informative, what leeway do authors have
under the fair usage policy (I can't seem to find it
ATM)? In addition, would current copyright
arrangements allow the free-lance writers, or ex-FASA
staff to personally post (shortened, or otherwise
altered) versions of their published material (while
adding a disclaimer that the material was originally
published elsewhere), or is their work wholly owned by
the publishing companies, even for non-profit
purposes?

It would be nice to be able to have an online resource
that points out the most important canon bits; an
interlinked whole where the basics of the world are
concerned. Not that everyone's campaigns necessarily
need be canon, but it's useful to have a frame of
reference: something that concentrates the salient
points from a variety of sourcebooks into a single
resource... perhaps with optional references for the
entries pointing to more information in the published
SR material.

Perhaps I'm not saying anything new here, but it just
seems sensible to have certain parts of canon
well-nestled within this wiki.

Cheers,

Jan Jaap

--- Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:

>
> On 14-Aug-04, at 3:19 AM, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest
> wrote:
>
> > Does the owner of a wiki have the legal
> responsibility
> > to keep it free of copyrighted material
> (messageboards
> > rarely get sued either, do they)?
>
> I feel a moral responsibility to treat well the
> various companies that
> have treated the Shadowrun fan-base so well.
> Dumpshock has always taken
> an anti-copyright infringement stance, and will
> continue to do so




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Message no. 54
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:01:52 -0400
On 14-Aug-04, at 7:43 PM, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

Side note: Please post your replies _under_ the quoted text; list
guidelines.

> In that case, given that the Wiki needs to be both
> useful and informative, what leeway do authors have
> under the fair usage policy (I can't seem to find it
> ATM)?

Fair use would allow for the quoting of short segments of
previously-published works, or summations.

> In addition, would current copyright
> arrangements allow the free-lance writers, or ex-FASA
> staff to personally post (shortened, or otherwise
> altered) versions of their published material (while
> adding a disclaimer that the material was originally
> published elsewhere), or is their work wholly owned by
> the publishing companies, even for non-profit
> purposes?

Almost all freelance work in the RPG industry is work-for-hire; once
you've done it, the publisher - or, in this case WizKids - owns it.

> Perhaps I'm not saying anything new here, but it just
> seems sensible to have certain parts of canon
> well-nestled within this wiki.

Absolutely. But you can refer to canon without posting entire pages
from sourcebooks. :-)

Best,
Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 55
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 10:48:36 +0200
According to Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, on Sunday 15 August 2004 01:43 the
word on the street was...

> or is their work wholly owned by
> the publishing companies, even for non-profit
> purposes?

Like Adam said, it's generally done as work-for-hire, so the rights belong
to the publisher, not the author. There may be some debatable cases, like
(from personal experience) writing something that gets published, but not
getting paid for it because the company folds before they got that far
(I'm not talking about FASA here, BTW), but this is the exception rather
than the rule.

> It would be nice to be able to have an online resource
> that points out the most important canon bits; an
> interlinked whole where the basics of the world are
> concerned.

That shouldn't be too hard to do, I think. AFAIK, it's not copyright
infringement as long as you say it in your own words, so you can basically
(for example) put up all the information that's in the old Seattle
Sourcebook, provided you don't copy it verbatim from that book. Of course,
this is easier said than done...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 56
From: snicker@*********.net (Snicker)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:15:28 -0500
At 03:47 PM 8/13/2004, you wrote:
>Two things:
>
>1) http://wiki.dumpshock.com/ and the associated subpages report the
>following:
>
>Fatal error: out of dynamic memory in yy_create_buffer() in Unknown on
>line 0
>
>2) I took a big whack at the summary page on Tuesday or so, and it was
>vaguely organized into subpages. When the wiki's back up, some
>feedback would be appreciated. The big remaining issues I see are what
>to do with non-canon submissions, and what should be done with stuff
>like the Tir Tairngire entry, which looks like it's 5 pages quoted
>verbatim out of NAGNA.

Seems to be working to me.

Just a note - I did a lot of the creature listing, but I still don't know a
whole lot about wiki. I asked before and never got a response. When doing
factual-type writeups, is it better to use a singular or plural form (ie,
should there be an entry for "Spirit" or for "Spirits"?)

Snicker
Message no. 57
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Shadowrun wiki
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:07:22 -0700 (PDT)
According to Mark S, word on the Street was:

Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:47:29 -0700 (PDT)
Two things:

>1) http://wiki.dumpshock.com/ and the associated
subpages report >the following:

>Fatal error: out of dynamic memory in
yy_create_buffer() in Unknown >on line 0
>
>2) I took a big whack at the summary page on Tuesday
or so, and it >was vaguely organized into subpages.
When the wiki's back up, >some feedback would be
appreciated. The big remaining issues I see >are what
to do with non-canon submissions, and what should be
>done with stuff like the Tir Tairngire entry, which
looks like it's 5 >pages quoted verbatim out of NAGNA.
>
>Mark

Scott's Entry:
I took a look at what was written in the Tir section
and checked out my copy of the sourcebook. Though the
FORMAT seems to be the same, I don't recall those
exact people or places in the sourcebook.

I have to recheck the copyright laws, but I don't
believe what was written here constitutes a copyright
infringement. It seems to merely to be in keeping with
the already-established Shadowrun® Universe.

I certainly don't recall anything about a MAX transit
system in the Tir Tairngire sourcebook ...

(In Addition: Typed 18:55. 8/15/04): I reviewed the
entry and the only part I saw was a blatant copy off
of the Tir Tairngire Sourcebook are the two paragraphs
after the poorly-edited Population breakdown (which
also appears to be taken directly from the Sourcebook
[but I am not altogether sure should not be included
since it DOES give some logical summaries in
accordance to SR cannon]). Maybe there can be a
stipulation that if writers are going to include
cannon material from sourcebooks, that they be limited
to certain types (like the Population Breakdowns)
and/or they must cite their sources so credit is given
where credit is due. I agree, the sourcebooks should
not be copied into Wiki, btu the Shadowrun universe
should not be thrown off kilter either. I think citing
the sources and limiting (somehow) the amount and type
of direct cannon content that is allowed is a good
place to start. The original writers and artists who
designed the sourcebooks need to be given credit for
their work and it must not be taken from them and
potentially passed off as someone else's).

Scott




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Message no. 58
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:02:26 -0700 (PDT)
> Adam Jury
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 2:42 PM
> On 13-Aug-04, at 4:47 PM, Mark S wrote:
> > 2) I took a big whack at the summary page on Tuesday or so, and it

> > was vaguely organized into subpages. When the wiki's back up, some

> > feedback would be appreciated. The big remaining issues I see are
> > what to do with non-canon submissions, and what should be done with

> > stuff like the Tir Tairngire entry, which looks like it's 5 pages
> > quoted verbatim out of NAGNA.
>
> Well, if it's quoted verbatim, it should absolutely be deleted unless

> it looks like it's within fair use. Taking a quick look at
> it, though,
> it just looks like a summary and some original stuff.

Whew, thanks. It's been ages since I've read Tir Tairngire. The first
part looks so similar that I was worried. (And to be honest, the
immortal elf portion of the Shadowrun canon immediately makes my eyes
glaze over, so TT isn't my best sourcebook). My main recommendation
then is to have a distinct separation between canon and new material.

Mark




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Message no. 59
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3))
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:17:31 +1000
>
>1) http://wiki.dumpshock.com/
>

Well, I finally made a contribution to the community.
There is now an entry for Guam in the Asia->Pacific Islands section.
Let me know what you think (probably a little miltary heavy, but it's what I
know).


Now I'll a buddy of mine critique and add to it.

Also, can someone tell me what SR NAN territory Boise, Idaho is in?
Message no. 60
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:45:32 +0200
According to Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3), on Tuesday 17 August 2004 13:17
the word on the street was...

> Also, can someone tell me what SR NAN territory Boise, Idaho is in?

According to the map in the back of SRII, it's just in the Salish-Shidhe
Council, right by the point where the borders of the SSC, Tir Tairngire
and Ute Nation come together.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 61
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3))
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:51:39 +1000
According to Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3), on Tuesday 17 August 2004 13:17
the word on the street was...

>> Also, can someone tell me what SR NAN territory Boise, Idaho is in?

>According to the map in the back of SRII, it's just in the Salish-Shidhe
>Council, right by the point where the borders of the SSC, Tir Tairngire
>and Ute Nation come together.

Then it would be a perfect location for an Angalo reservation.
Thanks Gurth.
Message no. 62
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:31:21 +0200
According to Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3), on Tuesday 17 August 2004 13:51
the word on the street was...

> Then it would be a perfect location for an Angalo reservation.

A quick look in NAN1 doesn't turn up any reference to the place, while SONA
does mention it (on p. 123), and says it's quickly becoming a smuggling
hub -- the map on page 117 puts it right on the T-junction of the three
borders -- but has little other real information about it.

> Thanks Gurth.

Not a problem :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 63
From: alex.case@*******.net (Alexander Case)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:49:00 -0700
Adam Jury wrote:

>
> On 13-Aug-04, at 4:47 PM, Mark S wrote:
>
>> Two things:
>>
>> 1) http://wiki.dumpshock.com/ and the associated subpages report the
>> following:
>>
>> Fatal error: out of dynamic memory in yy_create_buffer() in Unknown on
>> line 0
>
>
> Fixed. Now let's just hope the incoming hurricane doesn't knock out
> power to the area. :-)
>
>> 2) I took a big whack at the summary page on Tuesday or so, and it was
>> vaguely organized into subpages. When the wiki's back up, some
>> feedback would be appreciated. The big remaining issues I see are what
>> to do with non-canon submissions, and what should be done with stuff
>> like the Tir Tairngire entry, which looks like it's 5 pages quoted
>> verbatim out of NAGNA.
>
>
> Well, if it's quoted verbatim, it should absolutely be deleted unless
> it looks like it's within fair use. Taking a quick look at it, though,
> it just looks like a summary and some original stuff.


Speaking of verbatim stuff. Since Dunklezahn's Will is online already,
would it be okay to put The Will in the SixthWorldWiki? I figure this
would be a good idea as some bits in the article on the 2057
presidential election aren't made clear if you have not read the will
before hand (expecially Dunk's bequeathing to Miles Lanier his shares of
Renraku).

--
"Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?"
-John Travolta in "Broken Arrow"
Message no. 64
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:22:24 -0600
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:49:00 -0700, Alexander Case
<alex.case@*******.net> wrote:
>
> Speaking of verbatim stuff. Since Dunklezahn's Will is online already,
> would it be okay to put The Will in the SixthWorldWiki? I figure this
> would be a good idea as some bits in the article on the 2057
> presidential election aren't made clear if you have not read the will
> before hand (expecially Dunk's bequeathing to Miles Lanier his shares of
> Renraku).

You would have to ask WizKids. Just because a company makes something
available on their web site doesn't give everyone the right to copy it
and make it available on another web site. WizKids probably wouldn't
mind, but technically you would be violating copyright if you put
Dunk's will on Shadowiki without permission.

--
-Graht
Message no. 65
From: alex.case@*******.net (Alexander Case)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:08:20 -0700
Graht wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:49:00 -0700, Alexander Case
><alex.case@*******.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Speaking of verbatim stuff. Since Dunklezahn's Will is online already,
>>would it be okay to put The Will in the SixthWorldWiki? I figure this
>>would be a good idea as some bits in the article on the 2057
>>presidential election aren't made clear if you have not read the will
>>before hand (expecially Dunk's bequeathing to Miles Lanier his shares of
>>Renraku).
>>
>>
>
>You would have to ask WizKids. Just because a company makes something
>available on their web site doesn't give everyone the right to copy it
>and make it available on another web site. WizKids probably wouldn't
>mind, but technically you would be violating copyright if you put
>Dunk's will on Shadowiki without permission.
>

Who should I E-Mail about this?

--
"Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?"
-John Travolta in "Broken Arrow"
Message no. 66
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Shadowrun wiki
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:03:49 -0700 (PDT)
>From Scott (10:58AM CDT/8/17/04):
Looks great! Boise, Idaho is on a cross roads, so to
speak. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I
believe it is PRIMARILY in the Salish-Shidhe tribal
Council Lands, but it is also on the eastern Tir
Tairngire border along the Snake River.

Hope that helps.

-Scott

>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:17:31 +1000
>From: "Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3)"
<valeuj@*****.navy.mil>
Message-ID:
>
>1) http://wiki.dumpshock.com/
>

>Well, I finally made a contribution to the
community.There is now an >entry for Guam in the
Asia->Pacific Islands section.Let me know what >you
think (probably a little miltary heavy, but it's what
I know).
>
>
>Now I'll a buddy of mine critique and add to it.
>
>Also, can someone tell me what SR NAN territory
Boise, Idaho is in?




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Message no. 67
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Shadowrun Wiki
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:55:09 -0700 (PDT)
> >>Speaking of verbatim stuff. Since Dunklezahn's Will is online
> already,
> >>would it be okay to put The Will in the SixthWorldWiki?

In the meantime, we could just link to the official site's copy of it
at http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/will1.shtml

The problem is, we don't have a section for important documents.
Should we have a section for documents on the main summary page?

Mark




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