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Message no. 1
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:06:28 -0500
Mark Fender wrote:
/Hey, GRIDSEC, since the racism thread is now dead, can we talk about
/religion now?
/I'll start: Your god is dead.

Not much of a conversationalist are you? :)

Let's try this.

Do you think it would be possible for christian chosen to be a shaman by Snake
to believe that his healing powers were granted to him by Jesus Christ? And
would Snake be offended if said shaman perpetuated and announced his belief?
Say, the christian becomes an evangilistic healer. Would Snake continue to
work through him?

Do you think it is possible for a person who worships the Jewish, Christian, or
Muslim god to be a shaman and retain their faith? If such a person's faith
does not waiver in the face of being chosen by a totem, would the totem abandon
them even if they followed the totem's way?

Is it possible to be a shaman and a faithful monotheist (or remain faithful to
a non-"shamanic" god)?

-Graht
--
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Message no. 2
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:36:58 -0700
Graht wrote:
Do you think it is possible for a person who worships the Jewish, Christian, or

> Muslim god to be a shaman and retain their faith? If such a person's faith
> does not waiver in the face of being chosen by a totem, would the totem abandon
> them even if they followed the totem's way?
>
> Is it possible to be a shaman and a faithful monotheist (or remain faithful to
> a non-"shamanic" god)?
>
> -Graht

Depends...As per being Christian and being a shaman...In "Choose your enemies
wisely" (or whatever the 2nd book of the Secrets of Power trilogy was called),
didn't the priest say something like how the totems were perhaps merely magic
expressing itself in a way humans could understand?

Penta
Message no. 3
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:06:12 -0500
Penta wrote:
/Graht wrote:
/Do you think it is possible for a person who worships the Jewish, Christian,
or
/
/> Muslim god to be a shaman and retain their faith? If such a person's faith
/> does not waiver in the face of being chosen by a totem, would the totem
/abandon
/> them even if they followed the totem's way?
/>
/> Is it possible to be a shaman and a faithful monotheist (or remain
/faithful to
/> a non-"shamanic" god)?
/>
/> -Graht
/
/Depends...As per being Christian and being a shaman...In "Choose your enemies
/wisely" (or whatever the 2nd book of the Secrets of Power trilogy was called),
/didn't the priest say something like how the totems were perhaps merely magic
/expressing itself in a way humans could understand?

But that doesn't necessarily answer my question. Is it possible to be a shaman
and a priest? (which is what I should have asked in the first place :)

-Graht
--
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Message no. 4
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:22:23 -0700 (PDT)
> Do you think it would be possible for christian chosen to be a shaman
by Snake to believe that his healing powers were granted to him by
Jesus Christ? And would Snake be offended if said shaman perpetuated
and announced his belief? Say, the christian becomes an evangilistic
healer. Would Snake continue to work through him?

Yes and no. Depends how you see totems. If they're real, living,
breathing (?) things, then perhaps not. At the very least, Snake would
encourage the recalcitrant shaman to recognise who's truly granting him
powers.

If, on the other hand, you see totems as constructs of the shaman's
mind, then, well, the situation wouldn't come up. The shaman would be
using a "Jesus" totem who grants him the powers of healing (with the
same stats as Snake, funnily enough :) ).


> Do you think it is possible for a person who worships the Jewish,
Christian, or Muslim god to be a shaman and retain their faith? If
such a person's faith does not waiver in the face of being chosen by a
totem, would the totem abandon them even if they followed the totem's
way?

Again, it all depends on how you view totems. I think your faith could
be rather shaken when your totem comes a'callin'. Of course, you could
reject the totem and how the totem reacts would have to become a GM
call, based on the totem itself. Dog, for instance, would probably
stick by the shaman. Rat would probably let the shaman hang. Read the
Secrets of Power trilogy for a treatment of an 'unbelieving' shaman.

If you go for the 'totems are a construct of the shaman's mind' view,
then, again, this situation wouldn't crop up. The shaman would create a
construct that he believes in - Allah, or God, or whoever would grant
him the power, not Dog or Snake or whatever.

> Is it possible to be a shaman and a faithful monotheist (or remain
faithful to a non-"shamanic" god)?
> -Graht

As I said above. Depends on whether totems are real or not. If yes, it
could be difficult - but I'm sure some people could do it (I could see
catholics managing it - sorry, personal prejudice :) ). If no, then
wouldn't the shaman create a totem that wouldn't cause any conflicts? I
could see a good Catholic having the angel Gabriel (or Michael, or
whoever) or one of the saints or maybe even Mary as their totem - to
intercede with God in order to grant them their power. Other Christian
denominations would probably go more directly, having God or Jesus
appear to them in person. Muslims would be spoken to by Allah or
Mohammed. I'm not sure HOW Jews would see it - maybe a prophet would
speak with them, or maybe they'd see a pillar of cloud or flame,
depending on the time of day. Buddhists might see Buddha, Hindus might
see whichever god they follow most devotedly (beware a Hindu shaman who
follows the totem of Kali).

*Doc' goes back to worshipping his left big toe. After initiating, his
power of Noxious Breath becomes ever more overpowering...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 5
From: gray_ghost007@*****.net gray_ghost007@*****.net
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:45:43 -0500 (CDT)
Graht wrote:
But that doesn't necessarily answer my question. Is it possible to be a
shaman and a priest? (which is what I should have asked in the first
place :)

In reality no. I have a degree in Christian theology and I wouldn't
have enough time to type all the scriptures that were broken on that
subject because I have to work tomorrow.
In game terms, yes. For example if you were wanting to use the snake as
a totem; I would use the example in Numbers 21: 8-9 where Moses was
commanded to put a bronze snake on a pole so who ever looked upon it
would live. You could say your character draws upon that symbol to
provide him with the faith he needs to heal or whatever. If you wanted
a different totem then I would see if there was a biblical mentioning of
that animal.
Also there is a lot of symbolism in the Bible to draw from that you
could use.

"Never retreat in battle,
"Never make an unjust kill." - Wonkang
Message no. 6
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:54:14 -0400
gray_ghost007@*****.net wrote:

> Graht wrote:
> But that doesn't necessarily answer my question. Is it possible to be a
> shaman and a priest? (which is what I should have asked in the first
> place :)
>
> In reality no. I have a degree in Christian theology and I wouldn't
> have enough time to type all the scriptures that were broken on that
> subject because I have to work tomorrow.

Pardon me, I don't know the Bible very well, but would the 1st
Commandment be broken if one followed a totem? I ask because a shaman is NOT
following a religion, he/she is, IMHO, following a code of conduct which is
a central part of the person. A Gator Shaman, for instance, is naturally
very lazy. I think that the totem chooses the person very early in life
based on their personality. I just don't see Gator choosing a person who
works very hard, because that person just doesn't live like Gator. I think
that with that understanding, you could be a Snake Shaman and still be a
Christian, Jew, or Muslim. And, I really don't think, though I could be
wrong, that the shaman asks the totem for assistance.
<SNIPERONI>(TM)
--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

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gm+ M-
Message no. 7
From: Jeremy DeVore jmortir@******.net
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:32:49 -0500
<snip>

>Do you think it is possible for a person who worships the Jewish,
Christian, or
>Muslim god to be a shaman and retain their faith? If such a person's faith
>does not waiver in the face of being chosen by a totem, would the totem
abandon
>them even if they followed the totem's way?

>Is it possible to be a shaman and a faithful monotheist (or remain faithful
to
>a non-"shamanic" god)?

>-Graht

One question that comes with what I am working on (ya'll know the god rules)
is how do Shamans come into play with a god? Now I personally find that a
Shaman would come close to worship (to the point of believing and modifying
thier lifestyle...) and a sort of symbiotic relationship between the god and
the shaman would result (that was a discussion I was planning for a future
post... but if you are following the thread... the pure creation that the
Planes float around in is VERY special, and really everything comes from it,
the shaman makes a deep personal connection to the god (a god is a god
because the Maelstrom actively flows through thier soul) and the god makes a
connection with the shaman. This gives both an advantage (shaman gets thier
magic, and the god gets a deeper connection to the Maelstrom...). Now if
either severs the link then they lose thier abilities (if a shaman just
abandons thier totem, or falls out of the totem's favor).) But as to the
beliefs of the shaman (ie christian, muslim, ect.) I think that would be a
combo of personal beliefs and the Totem (Yep I have already been thinking up
gods who worship God...) itself. If the peices (of belief, mythology,
religion) fit I'd say that it wouldn't interfere. But if a personal... I
don't know what to call it... (belief?) cannot be made to include all of the
peices, then the shaman would lose thier magic.

Well that's my take on it. But of course my campaign is a tad bit different
than a standard Shadowrun campaign. :-)

Later

J

ICQ# 27381095
http://www.shreve.net/~jmortir/AWINS

"Tis a nobler thing I... Awww screw it! BYE!"
Message no. 8
From: Jeremy DeVore jmortir@*****.net
Subject: Fw: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:13:51 -0500
<snip>

>Do you think it is possible for a person who worships the Jewish,
Christian, or
>Muslim god to be a shaman and retain their faith? If such a person's faith
>does not waiver in the face of being chosen by a totem, would the totem
abandon
>them even if they followed the totem's way?

>Is it possible to be a shaman and a faithful monotheist (or remain faithful
to
>a non-"shamanic" god)?

>-Graht

One question that comes with what I am working on (ya'll know the god rules)
is how do Shamans come into play with a god? Now I personally find that a
Shaman would come close to worship (to the point of believing and modifying
thier lifestyle...) and a sort of symbiotic relationship between the god and
the shaman would result (that was a discussion I was planning for a future
post... but if you are following the thread... the pure creation that the
Planes float around in is VERY special, and really everything comes from it,
the shaman makes a deep personal connection to the god (a god is a god
because the Maelstrom actively flows through thier soul) and the god makes a
connection with the shaman. This gives both an advantage (shaman gets thier
magic, and the god gets a deeper connection to the Maelstrom...). Now if
either severs the link then they lose thier abilities (if a shaman just
abandons thier totem, or falls out of the totem's favor).) But as to the
beliefs of the shaman (ie christian, muslim, ect.) I think that would be a
combo of personal beliefs and the Totem (Yep I have already been thinking up
gods who worship God...) itself. If the peices (of belief, mythology,
religion) fit I'd say that it wouldn't interfere. But if a personal... I
don't know what to call it... (belief?) cannot be made to include all of the
peices, then the shaman would lose thier magic.

Well that's my take on it. But of course my campaign is a tad bit different
than a standard Shadowrun campaign. :-)

Later

J

ICQ# 27381095
http://www.shreve.net/~jmortir/AWINS

"Tis a nobler thing I... Awww screw it! BYE!"
Message no. 9
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 03:33:14 EDT
In a message dated 5/24/99 5:05:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net writes:

> But that doesn't necessarily answer my question. Is it possible to be a
> shaman
> and a priest? (which is what I should have asked in the first place :)
>
> -Graht

I would have to say that depends on the GM in question. I recall a
conversation on the list a couple of months ago about magic and the Catholic
church, where about half of the list members felt that Priest / Mages would
be Hermetic, while the other half felt they would be Patheonic Shamans, only
with a different pantheon (in this case, the catholic saints rather than
Snake, Buffalo, etc...)

Its also a matter of perspective as well, I guess. By the most technical
definitions of the book, no they wouldnt be shamans because they dont follow
the same "totems" as listed in the book, but from a game play perspective,
I'd still call them Shamans, for they would have to follow most of the same
restrictions as shamans with the only difference being who their totems were
and what benifits they gave. The differences between the two would be mearly
cosmetic, IMO. As I said, it truely depends on your GM and how he views the
Catholic Church veiws magic. Its also entirely possible that in his game the
"CHURCH" views magic as totaly heretical and ANYONE practicing it, priest or
otherwise, would be excommunicated.
Message no. 10
From: Shaun E. Gilroy shaung@**********.net
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:22:09 -0400
At 06:06 PM 5/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>But that doesn't necessarily answer my question. Is it possible to be a
>shaman
>and a priest? (which is what I should have asked in the first place :)
>
>-Graht

It could depend on many things.

If totems are sentient entities (as opposed to constructs), then the totem
would have to be sympathetic to the shaman's beliefs. For instance, Dog in
the Secrets of Power Trilogy is either a construct that (dog lover) Sam
Verner made up to focus his magic or is a Totem that doesn't mind that Sam
believes in a god that is bigger than him.

It is my opinion, that if the totems are entities and not constructs, that
some of the totems would put up with that and some would not. Dog being a
good example of one who would.

From the character perspective, anyone can come up for justifications of
their belief system (if to no one but themselves). gray_ghost007@*****.net
makes mention of symbolism used in the bible. IIRC Sam
considered/justified Dog to be an angel-type being that was essentially a
messenger from God.

However if the totems are constructs of the shaman's then they exist only
for the shaman and they will react however the shaman believes would be
sensible for the totem they represent. So if the shaman doesn't think he
could get away with being a Muslim snake shaman, then he won't be able to.
If he can justify it, well, more power too him (literally :).

My take on things.


Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corp.
Message no. 11
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:39:12 CST
>But that doesn't necessarily answer my question. Is it possible to be a
>shaman
>and a priest? (which is what I should have asked in the first place :)
>

Depends, if the person's personal religious belefs (and those of their
church/sect/order) allow for the belief that say Bear is just an aspect of
the Almighty (or whatever), then sure! If not, then no.

>-Graht

Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


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Message no. 12
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:29:18 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Graht <Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 25 May 1999 01:04
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism


<snip M fender>

>Not much of a conversationalist are you? :)
>
>Let's try this.
>
>Do you think it would be possible for christian chosen to be a shaman
by Snake
>to believe that his healing powers were granted to him by Jesus
Christ? And
>would Snake be offended if said shaman perpetuated and announced his
belief?
>Say, the christian becomes an evangilistic healer. Would Snake
continue to
>work through him?
>
>Do you think it is possible for a person who worships the Jewish,
Christian, or
>Muslim god to be a shaman and retain their faith? If such a person's
faith
>does not waiver in the face of being chosen by a totem, would the
totem abandon
>them even if they followed the totem's way?
>
>Is it possible to be a shaman and a faithful monotheist (or remain
faithful to
>a non-"shamanic" god)?

I have always thought that the Totms chose the shaman. If I were a
Totem (wouldnt that be nice :)
I would choose Shamans based on their ability to further my cause. If
Snake did not think I as a
Muslim or Catholic or whatever , would be willing to answer that call
to shamanism, why bother
calling that Muslim Catholic whatever person in the first place?

- - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>
Message no. 13
From: Joachim Sauer saua@***.net
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:03:20 +0000
Hy,

here's someone rising from the pits of lurkiness...

Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> > Do you think it is possible for a person who worships the Jewish,
> Christian, or Muslim god to be a shaman and retain their faith? If
> such a person's faith does not waiver in the face of being chosen by a
> totem, would the totem abandon them even if they followed the totem's
> way?
>
> Again, it all depends on how you view totems. I think your faith could
> be rather shaken when your totem comes a'callin'. Of course, you could
> reject the totem and how the totem reacts would have to become a GM
> call, based on the totem itself. Dog, for instance, would probably
> stick by the shaman. Rat would probably let the shaman hang. Read the
> Secrets of Power trilogy for a treatment of an 'unbelieving' shaman.

I just recently found some interesting books on "true" shamanism (as
practiced by shamans in societies which weren't influenced by so called
civilization). I don't believe in it (but this is not in the scope of
this list to discuss) but it gives a fine possibility for a different
approach on shamanism.

The Shamanism described in the book does not reduce the shaman to a
single totem but to some spirits who help and some who guide. The 'call'
is describe more as a order. If the to-be-shaman rejects the spirits
they insist on his becomming a shaman and even do him harm until he
decides to become a shaman, gets insane or even dies.

There's also some interesting stuff on initiation: The book describes it
as a one-time event thats initiated by the spirits. It always contains
killing and/or fragmentation of the shaman, the shaman beeing eaten and
putten back into a new (human) form.

I don't want to recreate the hole sr-idea of shamanism but I do think it
would be a nice idea to introduce a new kind of shamanism, as a
alternative to this totem-based simplyfied shamanism (which is based on
the Native American Shamanism as far as I can say). It sure would add
some atmosphere as it would give spirits more impact on the hole thing.

>
> If you go for the 'totems are a construct of the shaman's mind' view,
> then, again, this situation wouldn't crop up. The shaman would create a
> construct that he believes in - Allah, or God, or whoever would grant
> him the power, not Dog or Snake or whatever.

The Shamanism that is described above could also be used in this
totem-view (or spirit-view in this context).

[snip]
>
> *Doc' goes back to worshipping his left big toe. After initiating, his
> power of Noxious Breath becomes ever more overpowering...*

btw, anyone really did think about what rituals are contained in
initiating? what do you do? what does the shaman (and the hermetic mage)
expirience during the ritual?

cu
Akira

> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> .sig Sauer
> _________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Message no. 14
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:03:50 -0400 (EDT)
Joachim Sauer <saua@***.net> writes:
> I just recently found some interesting books on "true" shamanism (as
> practiced by shamans in societies which weren't influenced by so called
> civilization). I don't believe in it (but this is not in the scope of
> this list to discuss) but it gives a fine possibility for a different
> approach on shamanism.

Hey, can we get some book names/authors here? I'd like to
look into this a bit.

Thanks,
Mark
Message no. 15
From: Joachim Sauer saua@***.net
Subject: Shamanism and Monotheism
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:51:04 +0000
Mark A Shieh wrote:
>
> Joachim Sauer <saua@***.net> writes:
> > I just recently found some interesting books on "true" shamanism (as
> > practiced by shamans in societies which weren't influenced by so called
> > civilization). I don't believe in it (but this is not in the scope of
> > this list to discuss) but it gives a fine possibility for a different
> > approach on shamanism.
>
> Hey, can we get some book names/authors here? I'd like to
> look into this a bit.

It is a german book, but for those who are interested nevertheless:

Klaus E. Müller
Schamanismus - Heiler, Geister, Rituale
erschienen bei C.H.Beck-Verlag
ISBN 3-406-41872-4

but I am sure that similar books can be found in english language too,
perhaps this one even got translatet (the author is professor at the
university of Frankfurt)

cu
Akira

>
> Thanks,
> Mark

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