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Message no. 1
From: Leanne Dempsey <leanned@******.COM.AU>
Subject: Shamanism (was Invisible Pink Unicorns)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 13:28:22 +0200
Hi Kelly (Kelly Martin) on Sep 16 you wrote:
>
> related texts which may be useful: Bates, Brian: _The Way of the Wyrd_
> (which covers both shamanism and hermeticism); Cunningham, Scott:
> _Wicca for the Solitary Practitioner_ (which Wicca is not precisely
> either shamanism or hermeticism, it's a good basic work on modern
> witchcraft, which is related).
>
On the topic on good shamanism texts, may I recommend "The Western Way"
(Caitlin and John Matthews) and "The Celtic Shaman" (John Matthews) for a
pretty fair insight into Shamanism the Druid way. A little different from
the viewpoints of various Amerind people, and provides a broader definition
of the Totem.

While on the topic of Druids, can I take the opportunity to ask a question?
In the module "Imago" there is a description of a group of Celtic Druids who
are performing a ceremony using symbols such as an Ankh and the signs of the
Zodiac. It strikes me that these are odd symbols for a group of Celts to use.
Does anyone know if there is a reason for this that I may have missed in the
sourcebooks?

Leanne Dempsey
-------------------------------------
leanned@******.com.au
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Shamanism (was Invisible Pink Unicorns)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 22:01:05 +0930
Leanne Dempsey wrote:
>
> While on the topic of Druids, can I take the opportunity to ask a question?
> In the module "Imago" there is a description of a group of Celtic Druids
who
> are performing a ceremony using symbols such as an Ankh and the signs of the
> Zodiac. It strikes me that these are odd symbols for a group of Celts to use.
> Does anyone know if there is a reason for this that I may have missed in the
> sourcebooks?

Don't know why you think it's odd... there's heavy historical evidence
showing a connection between the Egyptians and the Celts of Ireland and
Britian (explaining the Ankh). As for the astrology, that's a Celtic
tradition to begin with.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 3
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shamanism (was Invisible Pink Unicorns)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 19:13:39 -0400
in an age where the magic they use is overt, powerful, and direct. In order
to learn more about wielding that power, why NOT take aspects of theory from
other magical systems? It doesn't change their core beliefs, nor the core
of their workings.. It may dilute "purity of tradition" by some people's
eyes, but probably not by theirs, and if it works, it works. I'm pretty
eclectic myself, and it has its advantages. (Then again, I don't go about
calling myself a Celtic Druid either...)


The OTHER possibility is that the adventure's author was making up the
magical system without extensive research, based on the stuff he knew
about. >8-> Nothing intrinsically wrong with that; the Shadowrun game
is fiction, and never claims to be accurate. In any case, if you don't
like it, the GM should always feel free to change the ritual in the module
to something she or he feels makes more sense.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "JESUS SAVES!
Please don't blame anyone else. | He takes half damage..." (AD&D)
Message no. 4
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shamanism (was Invisible Pink Unicorns)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 19:25:14 -0400
Robert Watkins writes:

> Don't know why you think it's odd... there's heavy historical evidence
> showing a connection between the Egyptians and the Celts of Ireland and
> Britian (explaining the Ankh).

Yes, but did the Celts actually use that symbol? I acknowledge Celtic
tradition isn't really my area, but I've never heard anything about it.
The connection you describe is pretty weak.


> As for the astrology, that's a Celtic
> tradition to begin with.

Hmmm... Here you're getting hazy.. It's EVERYBODY's tradition. The Chinese
did it, the Egyptians did it, the Mayans did it. Pretty much independently.
And while the Celts did have astrology, they did NOT use the signs of the
Roman zodiac. Astrology may be "a Celtic tradition," but not THAT
astrology.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "JESUS SAVES!
Please don't blame anyone else. | He takes half damage..." (AD&D)
Message no. 5
From: Kelly Martin <kelly@*******.BLOOMINGTON.IN.US>
Subject: Re: Shamanism (was Invisible Pink Unicorns)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 18:40:51 EST5
"Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU> writes:

Robert> Don't know why you think it's odd... there's heavy historical
Robert> evidence showing a connection between the Egyptians and the
Robert> Celts of Ireland and Britian (explaining the Ankh). As for the
Robert> astrology, that's a Celtic tradition to begin with.

zodiacal astrology is a chaldean tradition; the systems of western
astrology i've studied have little if any celtic influence.

the celts were big on solar and lunar cycles, but i've not run across
much discussion about the motions of the other bodies.

k.
--
kelly martin <kelly@*******.bloomington.in.us>

When Elvis Presley died in 1977, there were 37 Elvis impersonators in the
world. Today there are 48,000. If the current trend continues, by the year
2010, one of every three people in the world will be an Elvis impersonator.
-- Michael Legault
Message no. 6
From: "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shamanism (was Invisible Pink Unicorns)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:51:30 -0500
>Yes, but did the Celts actually use that symbol? I acknowledge Celtic
>tradition isn't really my area, but I've never heard anything about it.
>The connection you describe is pretty weak.

Being a practicing NeoPagan Druid, I can personally say that I have never
seen an ankh or ankh-like symbol used in the Celtic tradition.

>Hmmm... Here you're getting hazy.. It's EVERYBODY's tradition. The Chinese
>did it, the Egyptians did it, the Mayans did it. Pretty much independently.
>And while the Celts did have astrology, they did NOT use the signs of the
>Roman zodiac. Astrology may be "a Celtic tradition," but not THAT
>astrology.

Yeah. Celtic astrology and the cosmology that it's derived from are both
vastly different from the Egyptian and Mayan systems, which are pretty
different from each other. Basically, Celtic systems are based on the
number 3, with worlds and cycles occuring in triads. Quite different from
the Mayan world system, the Egyptian seven-part soul system, and the Roman
pantheon.

Andrew W. Ragland |GTW @*+(-) s++/+ a c++(++++)| _ Prayer Division|
Product Support Manager |G+ y* L e* W !N o+ K w++$ M+| /\ /\ Ariadne, |
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The Internet is a Process, not a Thing
Message no. 7
From: "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shamanism (was Invisible Pink Unicorns)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:07:28 -0500
>On the topic on good shamanism texts, may I recommend "The Western Way"
>(Caitlin and John Matthews) and "The Celtic Shaman" (John Matthews) for a
>pretty fair insight into Shamanism the Druid way. A little different from
>the viewpoints of various Amerind people, and provides a broader definition
>of the Totem.

You also might try Rhyddlym Gawr's The Way, a bit out there but fun, and
Isaac Bonewits' Real Magic, required reading despite Isaac's ego. Get the
revised edition, which he re-edited after maturing a bit. He says so in the
introduction. :) Real Magic doesn't get into any specific tradition deeply,
but it covers the meta-rules of magic very well, and anyone who wants to
argue magic theory really should have read it.

Andrew W. Ragland |GTW @*+(-) s++/+ a c++(++++)| _ Prayer Division|
Product Support Manager |G+ y* L e* W !N o+ K w++$ M+| /\ /\ Ariadne, |
R & M BioMetrics / BioQuant|O+$ V+ +PS- +PE- Y+ PGP @*+ | |-*-| Strengthen |
raglan45@*****.mmc.edu |5@ X+ R+++>$ h---- b+++ r+++| \/_\/ The Web! |
The Internet is a Process, not a Thing
Message no. 8
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shamanism (was Invisible Pink Unicorns)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:22:38 -0400
Andrew Ragland writes:

> You also might try Rhyddlym Gawr's The Way, a bit out there but fun, and
> Isaac Bonewits' Real Magic, required reading despite Isaac's ego. Get the
> revised edition, which he re-edited after maturing a bit. He says so in the
> introduction. :) Real Magic doesn't get into any specific tradition deeply,
> but it covers the meta-rules of magic very well, and anyone who wants to
> argue magic theory really should have read it.

I agree about _Real Magic_. It's one of the best and most non-biased sources
for magical theory out there. (Well, biased only by Bonewits' personality.)
>8->

The door swings both ways, too. Several friends and I have found the
Grimoire's section on metamagic a useful working tool for practice and
theory. It's a good condensation of stuff currently in magical traditions..
The writers very obviously did their homework.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "Program flowering --
My opinions are my opinions. | Procedures, functions, data
Please don't blame anyone else. | Bloom effervescent."
Message no. 9
From: "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shamanism (was Invisible Pink Unicorns)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:52:14 -0500
>The writers very obviously did their homework.

FYI, not that it's a big secret, Paul Hume used to be the head of the
Washington DC lodge of the OTO. I met him in the Pagan Elders section on
GEnie's Religion RT, and realized he was the same guy who wrote the stuff
for SR. I dunno if he's still active in OTO or not, hence the "used to be".
Haven't seen him online in a couple of years. *sigh*

Andrew W. Ragland |GTW @*+(-) s++/+ a c++(++++)| _ Prayer Division|
Product Support Manager |G+ y* L e* W !N o+ K w++$ M+| /\ /\ Ariadne, |
R & M BioMetrics / BioQuant|O+$ V+ +PS- +PE- Y+ PGP @*+ | |-*-| Strengthen |
raglan45@*****.mmc.edu |5@ X+ R+++>$ h---- b+++ r+++| \/_\/ The Web! |
The Internet is a Process, not a Thing

Further Reading

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