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Message no. 1
From: Eric e-lemme@***.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 09:22:39 -0600
Hi All, I am playing a Shaman for the first time and working out his
everyday tasks. I am thinking the first thing he does when he is in a
new domain is summon an appropriate spirit to either guard or conceal
him. I am also thinking that always haveing a couple of watchers on
astral patrol would be a good thing. Do other people have other
standard practices that I should think about or are there any problems
with always having a spirit and couple of watchers around?

Squeaker the Mouse Shaman
Message no. 2
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:04:33 -0600
:Hi All, I am playing a Shaman for the first time and working out his
:everyday tasks. I am thinking the first thing he does when he is in a
:new domain is summon an appropriate spirit to either guard or conceal
:him. I am also thinking that always haveing a couple of watchers on
:astral patrol would be a good thing. Do other people have other
:standard practices that I should think about or are there any problems
:with always having a spirit and couple of watchers around?


It depends how often and where you intend to do it. As a common, on the
street thing, its not likely a practical long term plan, though it is a nice
sounding idea. Rolling all those dice will drive you nuts, for one thing,
and you might take drain at an inconvenient time (like right before a
fight). Unless you plan it out well, you tend to change domains fairly
often (like every time you go into a building). Also, spirits over force 2
or 3 are cause for legal concern- if they are spotted, you may be
questioned, if not arrested.
On a run, its not a bad policy, but not always one that is easy to
follow. Be aware that you may be doing more to alert more to astral
security than you are doing to protect yourself, although I find the
protection is generally worth it. I've been hosed worse for NOT having
spirit help than for HAVING it, so far.
Generally, I do about the same as you consider above, when its
practical, except I just have the spirit on standby, or maybe tell it to
scare off or attack anybody who messes with me. The watchers are nice for
checking to see if astral space is safe before you switch to astral
perception or project; I highly advise doing that, especially on a run!

I also suggest leaving a watcher with your body, if there is ANY chance
its going to get moved. If your teammates move it, they can tell the
watcher where they are going. If the badguys get it, maybe it won't be
spotted, and can tell you what happened. This is advice learned the hard
way. It might not save you time finding your body, but then again, it
might. Or it might prevent a nasty suprise when you do find it (small
consolation).

On this topic, has anybody figured out a way for an far ranging astral
mage to communicate with people who are back with his body, besides, say,
using a watcher as a messenger?
I'm mostly concerned with the mundanes being able to send notice
to the projecting mage that they need him back at his corpus ASAP. The best
one I've got so far is to have them remove an active focus form physical
contact with the characters body, de-activating it (something his astral
form is sure to notice). This might also work if done with a fetish, fetish
focus, or other item usable in astral space. This is something that (again,
after hard experience) I've decided to add to my character's "standard
practices". Comments? Other ideas?

Mongoose
Message no. 3
From: neil goodwin neil.goodwin@*********.net
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 20:40:12 -0000
From: Eric <e-lemme@***.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
> Hi All, I am playing a Shaman for the first time and working out his
> everyday tasks. I am thinking the first thing he does when he is in a
> new domain is summon an appropriate spirit to either guard or conceal
> him. I am also thinking that always haveing a couple of watchers on
> astral patrol would be a good thing. Do other people have other
> standard practices that I should think about or are there any problems
> with always having a spirit and couple of watchers around?

Anne Marie (my dolphin shaman) would routinely summon a hearth sprit
(force 3-4, using guard) when ever she entered her apartment, and a sea
spirit (force 4-5, using conceal, guard or speed) when ever she was on
the groups boat. She would always resummon the spirit at dawn or dusk. I
imagined the hearth spirit to be almost a Domovoi (Critters page 26) in
that it was very house proud, and would nag the shaman into tidying up.

She didn't use watchers during the entire campaign (I didn't have access
to awakenings/grimoir). I think that having a watcher on astral cover
would be a good idea.

I don't think summoning a spirit every time you enter a domain would be
practical, as you would change domains so many times that the drain
would get to you eventually.

E.g. you leave a house (hearth) and enter a city street (city, and sky),
you summon a force 3 city spirit followed by a force 3 storm spirit.
When you summoned the storm spirit you left the city domain and lost any
services form the city spirit.

Neil
Message no. 4
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:41:24 -0500 (EST)
I lost the original. :(

Anyways, there's only one piece of information (AFAIK) that a
magician can track outside of their immediate awareness. They know
how many spirits/elementals they currently have summoned, and how many
watchers. (two separate numbers, right? I'm still a little hazy on
MitS changes.) I'm not 100% sure this isn't a house rule of ours.

So, you put one watcher on astral patrol over the meat body
and tell it that it is free to go if one of these people (points at
other runners) says so. When your watcher counter drops by one,
you've got trouble at home. This can get more elaborate if you
actually know *which* of your spirits still exist.

If you don't have this information, the only way to check up
on your watcher count is to go back to your meat body, and summon
watchers until you've hit your maximum. Take a head count.

Mark
Message no. 5
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 18:36:11 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Mark A Shieh."
] Anyways, there's only one piece of information (AFAIK) that a
] magician can track outside of their immediate awareness. They know
] how many spirits/elementals they currently have summoned, and how many
] watchers. (two separate numbers, right? I'm still a little hazy on
] MitS changes.) I'm not 100% sure this isn't a house rule of ours.
<snip>
] If you don't have this information, the only way to check up
] on your watcher count is to go back to your meat body, and summon
] watchers until you've hit your maximum. Take a head count.


I'm sure that's right, it wouldn't make a lot of sense not knowing
how many sprits you had on leash. The absurdity of summoning watchers
until you can't summon more, then counting, sort of solidifies that
theory for me. Besides, you know when one of your wards is attacked,
so why couldn't you keep tabs on your spirits?

-Boondocker
Message no. 6
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 19:23:17 -0800 (PST)
> On this topic, has anybody figured out a way for
an far ranging astral mage to communicate with people
who are back with his body, besides, say, using a
watcher as a messenger?
> I'm mostly concerned with the mundanes being
able to send notice to the projecting mage that they
need him back at his corpus ASAP. The best one I've
got so far is to have them remove an active focus form
physical contact with the characters body,
de-activating it (something his astral form is sure to
notice). This might also work if done with a fetish,
fetish focus, or other item usable in astral space.
This is something that (again, after hard experience)
I've decided to add to my character's "standard
practices". Comments? Other ideas?
> Mongoose

Break his nose.

*Doc' gets violent, dammit!*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 7
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 08:32:39 -0500
> On this topic, has anybody figured out a way for an far ranging astral
> mage to communicate with people who are back with his body, besides, say,
> using a watcher as a messenger?
> I'm mostly concerned with the mundanes being able to send notice
> to the projecting mage that they need him back at his corpus ASAP. The
best
> one I've got so far is to have them remove an active focus form physical
> contact with the characters body, de-activating it (something his astral
> form is sure to notice). This might also work if done with a fetish,
fetish
> focus, or other item usable in astral space. This is something that
(again,
> after hard experience) I've decided to add to my character's "standard
> practices". Comments? Other ideas?
>
I once designed a sort of Clairaudience Focus to do this, and the occasional
GM will allow even astrally projecting mages to use a cybercomm, but the
watch idea is pretty much the commonplace one around here.


___________________________________
I told you this morality of mine would kill us all.
Message no. 8
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 08:31:53 -0800
On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 08:32:39 -0500 "abortion_engine"
<abortion_engine@*******.com> writes:
> > On this topic, has anybody figured out a way for an far ranging
astral
> > mage to communicate with people who are back with his body, besides,
say,
> > using a watcher as a messenger?
<SNIP>

> I once designed a sort of Clairaudience Focus to do this,
<SNIP>

How did this work? The standard spell requires concentration to use and
while using it, you can't use normal hearing. Also, did you decide that
regardless of where he moved astrally, the mage could keep the
clairaudience spell centered where he wanted to?

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 9
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:31:01 -0500
> > > On this topic, has anybody figured out a way for an far ranging
> astral
> > > mage to communicate with people who are back with his body, besides,
> say,
> > > using a watcher as a messenger?
> <SNIP>
>
> > I once designed a sort of Clairaudience Focus to do this,
> <SNIP>
>
> How did this work? The standard spell requires concentration to use and
> while using it, you can't use normal hearing. Also, did you decide that
> regardless of where he moved astrally, the mage could keep the
> clairaudience spell centered where he wanted to?

It didn't actually use the Clariaudience rules, that was simply the
inspiration for the spell. The actual spell itself was never cast without
the spell lock; it never become necessary to do so. What the spell did was
detect the surface thoughts of the bonded wearer, then play those thoughts
aloud at the location of the spell lock, and vice versa. It was something
like a combination of the mind probe and clairaudience spells. The somewhat
punishing drain was one of the reasons it was never cast, except to create
the spell lock. One of the biggest problems, though, was, of course, the
grounding issue.

Eventually, the group came up with a few pretty clever ways to communicate
through this thing, including an anchored, very limited-purpose spell whose
job it was to switch the radio on and off automatically, so that the
astrally projecting mage could still communicate by radio.

At first, I didn't really want to allow such things, but:
a) I like to reward creativity.
b) The logical justifications were quite extensive, and certainly not
out of the capabilities of the character who created it.
c) The use of the Spell Lock caused so many problems and gave me so many
possibilities to screw them [ :) ] that I thought it was hardly damaging to
the game.

So, I allowed it, and it really didn't hurt the game at all. And it was a
great way to cost the mage karma and money that he might otherwise have
spent on something that would have hurt my carefully-crafted plans much
worse than a little communication device. :)
Message no. 10
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 02:50:37 -0600
:] Anyways, there's only one piece of information (AFAIK) that a
:] magician can track outside of their immediate awareness. They know
:] how many spirits/elementals they currently have summoned, and how many
:] watchers. (two separate numbers, right? I'm still a little hazy on
:] MitS changes.) I'm not 100% sure this isn't a house rule of ours.

No, that's right. Afaik, you also know when one of your spirits "dies"-
which is pretty much a corralary of the above effect. I assume you would
know which one, since (for elementals) you know which ones you have "on
call". Note that, afaik, this does not apply to spirits bound with karma or
on remote service- they also do not count as bound spirits, however.
Anybopdy have a page reference for this, however? Think how much more
annoying this makes astral security- good thing they use lots of bound
elementals, but it bascialy makes those watchers into "astral alarms"- they
see you, they go get somebody. They dies, somebody comes to check why. It
is (I think) the rule we play by, and that's why I generally cast "control
thoughts" on the little bastards and tell them to act as if they never saw
me, or put them in an astral headlock and hold them untill I'm done
scouting. Nice to know I can make it work FOR me as well. (DUH...)
The idea of having folks tell a watcher when its "free" won't work (they
can't go free), but I suppose you could order it to stop existing on
somebodies command, or get somebody with astral perception to kill them
(which won't happen in our group). That would be more reliabel than having
the watcher try to find you, and it has the advantage that you will likely
know if your team is astrally attacked- you could simply tell the watcher to
attack any astral beings it sees, and when it dies, you will know it saw
something... :) Thanks for the idea- I'll have to test it with the GM to
be sure it works, but its basically all I needed.

If you want more of a "communication code" system, I'm still not sure
why having a set of fetishes that your buddies remove from your body would
not work. The fetishes form is with you in astral space (afiak). It is
within your awareness. If it is removed, that form vanishes. This is
cheap, relaible, and intuitive- "So, if there's trouble while I'm gone, yank
this outa my hand!".

Mongoose
Message no. 11
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:11:47 -0500 (EST)
"Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com> writes:
> :] Anyways, there's only one piece of information (AFAIK) that a
> :] magician can track outside of their immediate awareness. They know
> :] how many spirits/elementals they currently have summoned, and how many
> :] watchers. (two separate numbers, right? I'm still a little hazy on
> :] MitS changes.) I'm not 100% sure this isn't a house rule of ours.
>
> No, that's right. Afaik, you also know when one of your spirits
"dies"-
> which is pretty much a corralary of the above effect. I assume you would
> know which one, since (for elementals) you know which ones you have "on
> call". Note that, afaik, this does not apply to spirits bound with karma or
> on remote service- they also do not count as bound spirits, however.

Are you sure? There's a good bit of abuse you can do with
remote services if sending the spirit off means that it doesn't count
as one of the spirits toward your limit, especially if you're a
shaman. (See that clock? Wait until 2am and then go make a mess over
here. Lather, rinse, repeat.)

> Anybody have a page reference for this, however? Think how much more
> annoying this makes astral security- good thing they use lots of bound
> elementals, but it bascialy makes those watchers into "astral alarms"- they
> see you, they go get somebody. They dies, somebody comes to check
> why.

That's how we always played things. It generally takes a few
combat turns around these parts for a watcher to make it home, a
panicked watcher to get its message across, or a mage to make it out
to the site.

> The idea of having folks tell a watcher when its "free" won't work
(they
> can't go free), but I suppose you could order it to stop existing on
> somebodies command, or get somebody with astral perception to kill them
> (which won't happen in our group).

Sorry, that's what we mean when we tell a spirit it's free to
go. A watcher that is set free in our campaigns either has X hours to
live, wandering around the astral plane, or wanders back to its home
and is never heard from again. Either way, you free up the slot.

> That would be more reliable than having the watcher try to find you,

Yeah, this is really bad. If the watcher tries to find you,
base time is something like an hour.

> and it has the advantage that you will likely
> know if your team is astrally attacked- you could simply tell the watcher to
> attack any astral beings it sees, and when it dies, you will know it saw
> something... :)

This is also good, but more dangerous. You can't do this if
you're set up in a semi-public place, such as in a vehicle parked on a
traveled street. The watcher is likely to rush after something in
under a minute and bring attention to itself. :) However, it's
important to make sure the rest of the runners can give it the
self-destruct command.

> If you want more of a "communication code" system, I'm still not sure
> why having a set of fetishes that your buddies remove from your body would
> not work. The fetishes form is with you in astral space (afiak).

Sounds workable. I don't like relying on crutches with some
of my characters though... Less true under SR3. 25 FP doesn't seem
to get me quite as far as the old method after all the errata.

Mark
Message no. 12
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:07:46 -0600
:It didn't actually use the Clariaudience rules, that was simply the
:inspiration for the spell. The actual spell itself was never cast without
:the spell lock; it never become necessary to do so. What the spell did was
:detect the surface thoughts of the bonded wearer, then play those thoughts
:aloud at the location of the spell lock, and vice versa. It was something
:like a combination of the mind probe and clairaudience spells. The somewhat
:punishing drain was one of the reasons it was never cast, except to create
:the spell lock. One of the biggest problems, though, was, of course, the
:grounding issue.

I had an SR2 character (an Air adept) who had the "mindlink" spell.
That spell is specifically designed to allow telepathinc communication with
the target, at any range (once the spell is cast, you can even leave LOS).
Its from "The Grimoire"- it is clearly not a vlaid spell anymore, since
detection spells all have limited rangs and some other limits, although you
could kinda sorta get the smae thing, depending on what you allow for spell
design in your games.
The character in question did sometimes lock the spell, but what he did
more often was "split casting" (which also isn't allowed in SR3) to cast the
spell on 3-5 people simultaniously, making him into a "mental switchboard"-
good thing he had a cerebral booster and several mental edges! This was
particularly effective to do with spirits (small groups of watchers, in my
case), as it allowed "remote control" of the spirits.
It was a pretty damn cool character idea, if a bit twinkish in my use of
bioware and edges and flaws - I also made him a troll with extra-ordiary
stats in all the mentals, a trauma damper and platelet factory, and a reach
2 weapon focus. Oh, and a "astral combat sense" spell lock. He was the
astral brute sqaud, but pretty weak physically.

:Eventually, the group came up with a few pretty clever ways to communicate
:through this thing, including an anchored, very limited-purpose spell whose
:job it was to switch the radio on and off automatically, so that the
:astrally projecting mage could still communicate by radio.

Who needs a radio, when you are mindlinked to the rigger?

:At first, I didn't really want to allow such things, but:
: a) I like to reward creativity.
: b) The logical justifications were quite extensive, and certainly not
:out of the capabilities of the character who created it.

Well, I could argue with that, and generally do. :)

: c) The use of the Spell Lock caused so many problems and gave me so
many
:possibilities to screw them [ :) ] that I thought it was hardly damaging to
:the game.
:
:So, I allowed it, and it really didn't hurt the game at all. And it was a
:great way to cost the mage karma and money that he might otherwise have
:spent on something that would have hurt my carefully-crafted plans much
:worse than a little communication device. :)


Yeah, in our case it rather made the game more fun, since we didn't need to
worry as much about what a character did or did not know, and keeping
"character knowledge" separate from "player knowledge". I do think
its a
damn effective investment, however. "A little communications device" can be
a pretty important edge, as witnessed by the history of military
communications and intelligence.

Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:15:28 -0600
:> No, that's right. Afaik, you also know when one of your spirits
"dies"-
:> which is pretty much a corralary of the above effect. I assume you would
:> know which one, since (for elementals) you know which ones you have "on
:> call". Note that, afaik, this does not apply to spirits bound with karma
or
:> on remote service- they also do not count as bound spirits, however.
:
: Are you sure? There's a good bit of abuse you can do with
:remote services if sending the spirit off means that it doesn't count
:as one of the spirits toward your limit, especially if you're a
:shaman. (See that clock? Wait until 2am and then go make a mess over
:here. Lather, rinse, repeat.)

Sure, but you still only can have one per domain, I think, even for
remote services. You may, however, be correct- as I said, I can't find the
reference.

:> Anybody have a page reference for this, however? Think how much more
:> annoying this makes astral security- good thing they use lots of bound
:> elementals, but it bascialy makes those watchers into "astral alarms"-
they
:> see you, they go get somebody. They dies, somebody comes to check
:> why.
:
: That's how we always played things. It generally takes a few
:combat turns around these parts for a watcher to make it home, a
:panicked watcher to get its message across, or a mage to make it out
:to the site.


Yes, there's that. I still try to avoid it, however. Its also one of
the few uses I've found for "control thoughst"- given its punishing drain
and brutal threshold (in addtion to being an opposed spell), its tough to
cast effectively without drain if the TN is higher than 3.

:> and it has the advantage that you will likely
:> know if your team is astrally attacked- you could simply tell the watcher
to
:> attack any astral beings it sees, and when it dies, you will know it saw
:> something... :)
:
: This is also good, but more dangerous. You can't do this if
:you're set up in a semi-public place, such as in a vehicle parked on a
:traveled street. The watcher is likely to rush after something in
:under a minute and bring attention to itself. :) However, it's
:important to make sure the rest of the runners can give it the
:self-destruct command.

Well, in our game at least, honest to gosh astral beings are not that
common. It would not be atcking spells and the like. You could tell it to
only attack ones that hang around a certain amount of time and within a
certain distance, but I would not want to have a watcher make a judgemet
call. I suppose it could report what it sees to another character, but I
don't think wathcers will take orders from others unless they recived a
conditional order from the mage ("If he says to attack something, do it.")
A real spirit would be better for that. Hmm, and since you generally can't
take a hearth spirit very far anyhow, and CAN command it to obey anybody you
choose...

:> If you want more of a "communication code" system, I'm still not sure
:> why having a set of fetishes that your buddies remove from your body
would
:> not work. The fetishes form is with you in astral space (afiak).
:
: Sounds workable. I don't like relying on crutches with some
:of my characters though... Less true under SR3. 25 FP doesn't seem
:to get me quite as far as the old method after all the errata.

To me, it would be a way to avoid a really annoying game situation,
mostly.

Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:18:45 EST
In a message dated 11/8/1999 8:31:40 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> I once designed a sort of Clairaudience Focus to do this, and the occasional
> GM will allow even astrally projecting mages to use a cybercomm, but the
> watch idea is pretty much the commonplace one around here.

Where's this GM that would allow this? Projecting magicians not a chance,
even with the FABerand concepts we've had bouncing around. A "Perceiving"
magician is something else entirely.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 15
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:54:52 +1100
>: Are you sure? There's a good bit of abuse you can do with
>:remote services if sending the spirit off means that it doesn't count
>:as one of the spirits toward your limit, especially if you're a
>:shaman. (See that clock? Wait until 2am and then go make a mess over
>:here. Lather, rinse, repeat.)
At 21:15 8/11/99 -0600, Sebastian Wiers wrote:
> Sure, but you still only can have one per domain, I think, even for
>remote services. You may, however, be correct- as I said, I can't find the
>reference.

The reference for remote services is page 187 of SR3. However, it states
that remote service elementals are still bound and still count towards the
mage's charisma limit. This section, only referring to elementals, is the
only place that I know that talks about remote services. That there is no
section on remote services for nature spirits makes a certain amount of
sense since as long as the shaman stays in the one domain, the shaman can
continue to command the nature spirit he conjured for that domain (assuming
sufficient services and assuming the shaman can find it again) no matter
what distance is placed between the shaman and the nature spirit. There is
no radius of control such as a mage has for his elementals. Although, I do
tend to think that if a shaman sends his city spirit to perform a service
elsewhere in the city he'd probably prefer to release it and re-conjure
another city spirit, once confirmation comes in that it has performed its
requested task, rather than try to find it to command another service. On
the other hand, leaving a domain does sort of put the nature spirit
conjured for the previous domain in a remote service sort of situation
where it will continue trying to complete the last command until success,
sunrise, sunset or destruction. Additionally, it also counts towards the
shaman's number of spirits permissible, one spirit per domain, the same as
a mage's elemental still counts towards his number while it performs a
remote service.

Binding elementals with karma is described on page 98 of MITS. It states
that elementals so bound no longer count against a mage's charisma limit
for bound elementals. The wording seems ambiguous to me, however, on
whether the conjuring mage may still be aware of it being disrupted/destroyed.

Chris
Message no. 16
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Shaman Standard Practices
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:48:29 -0600
:Binding elementals with karma is described on page 98 of MITS. It states
:that elementals so bound no longer count against a mage's charisma limit
:for bound elementals. The wording seems ambiguous to me, however, on
:whether the conjuring mage may still be aware of it being
disrupted/destroyed.


This issue did come up in our game, and we decided that the mage would not
be so aware. Also, the question that came up was wether the spirit would go
free when if the mage were killed- again, we decided the answer was no. It
ended up that the mage died before the spirit, thanks to some interesting
infiltration work by our female teammates...

Mongoose

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Thwap!