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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shaman vs Hermetic
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:51:00 -0500
>Shamanic? As in they receive their power from faith/someone above them?
>Hmm.
>I wonder what would be the thing ..
>
>Oh well.

The point I think is that Dragons don't necessarily have a totem, it's just that they
are more likely than not to use magic intuitively rather than systematically. This,
_IMHO_ is the true difference between the hermetic and shamanistic approaches
to magic, one is intuitive and emotion/spirit based, and the other is analytical and
forces/energy based.

And to the pro-hermetic posters from before I say this:
As stated in all FASA comments on the subject: BOTH traditions have BLIND
SPOTS and limitations. Shaman may not benefit from the scientific method, and
the abilities that sustained study provide, but Hermetics don't really understand the
deeper mysteries of magic _either_ AND NEVER WILL. Even after 40 years,
magic is still an art, not a science. Hermetic magic may be scientific in
terminology and methodology, but it still defies instrumentation and therefore
measurement. All magical experiments depend on the introspective perceptions
of the experiementor. Any 20th century scientist knows this is DISASTROUSLY
unreliable. Hermetic mages expect magic to be predictable and to follow
discoverable laws, and therefore the magic they discover does. They deduce
laws and rules, teach them to their apprentices, and then a shaman walks in and
does three unreproduceable, impossible, against-the-rules things before
breakfast. Does the shaman understand what he does? No. Both traditions are
looking at different sides of an elephant through a keyhole and coming to very
different conclusions about the nature of magic.

How can magic be both hermetic and shamanistic? How can it be rule based,
with forces, energies and detailed cause-and-effect chains, but simultaneously be
simply the half awake will of the universe, the collective unconscious, full of spirits
to be apeased, raw emotions embeded in inanimate objects, souls, with molecules
of quartz crystals "remembering" whether they were harvested by hand or
back-hoe.
It is the same problem that stumped Newtonian optics: how can light be both a
particle and a wave? How can photons exist and cause the photovoltaic effect
and still be in two places at the same time?
There are deeper rules to magic than have appeared yet to man, and perhaps in
a century there will be a new tradition that combines the known ones and solves
this problem. Until then, just keep in mind that magic is both and we don't
understand why.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 2
From: Steve Collins <steve_collins@********.ALEWIFE.KODAK.COM>
Subject: Re: Shaman vs Hermetic
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:16:30 U
Mail*Link® SMTP RE>>Shaman vs Hermetic

>>snip explanation of the differences between Shamanistic and Hermetic =
Magic<<

>How can magic be both hermetic and shamanistic? How can it be rule =
based,
>with forces, energies and detailed cause-and-effect chains, but =
simultaneously >be simply the half awake will of the universe, the =
collective unconscious, full >of spirits to be apeased, raw emotions =
embeded in inanimate objects, souls, >with molecules of quartz crystals =
"remembering" whether they were harvested by >hand or back-hoe.
>It is the same problem that stumped Newtonian optics: how can light be =
both a
>particle and a wave? How can photons exist and cause the photovoltaic =
effect
>and still be in two places at the same time?

The observer influences reality. A mage EXPECTS there to be identifiable =
laws to magic and so there are for him. A Shaman Believes in his Totem and =
EXPECTS it to answer his needs in a certain manner and so it does for him. =
Maybe that's all the Mana cycles are is the peoiodic lowering of certain =
Quantum uncertanties.

Mixing magic and quantum theory in one discussion always gives me a warm =
fuzzy feeling inside

Steve (who's dream is to earn enough money to be able to become a =
Theoretical Physicist because that doesn't pay too well especially whan =
you are trying to get the Education)

Further Reading

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