Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:47:18 -0400
Greetings -n- Salutations,

I don't even know if Mr. Kenson still subscribes to the list, but I would
really like an *official* ruling on this. If you are out there I would
much appreciate it.

I've come into conflict with a player over how the spell shapechange
works. I will provide the way I've explained it to my player, and if
possible the player's argument against it.

Shapechange
The spell can only be applied to the mage, or a willing target. The Target
Number for the spell is the target's Natural Body Attribute.

The spell has a Threshold of 1/2 the target's body (I'm guessing rounded
down) plus the difference between the body of the animal form and the
target's natural body attribute. (one point of argument is I say the
difference goes both ways, the player thinks it should only apply to
shapeshifting into larger animals and not smaller animals)

Threshold means that that is the absolute minimum number of successes you
need to achieve to successfully cast the spell.

The difference between the creature form's body and the target's natural
body is the minimum Force the spell must be to make the change.

EXAMPLES
Said character has a body of 5 and the spell "Shapechange" at 5. If he
wanted to become a Bat, which has a body of 1 he would need at least a
force 4 spell, with a difficulty of his body (5), and a Threshold of 1/2
his body plus the difference between his natural body and the bat's (7).
Or, another words, he needs 7 successes at difficulty 5.

If the same character wanted to become an Elephant (Body 15 with 3 points
of natural armor) he would still have a difficulty of 5 (his Body) but
would have to have at least a Force 13 spell (the difference between his
body and the elephant's) and even if he did he would need 15 successes
(the difference plus half the target's body).

Am I right?
-- Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle
Message no. 2
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:17:36 -0500
:I don't even know if Mr. Kenson still subscribes to the list, but I would
:really like an *official* ruling on this. If you are out there I would
:much appreciate it.

Dunno either, but I do recall hacking on this spell a lot in playtesting,
and thinking the final solution was pretty good...

:I've come into conflict with a player over how the spell shapechange
:works. I will provide the way I've explained it to my player, and if
:possible the player's argument against it.
:
:Shapechange
:The spell can only be applied to the mage, or a willing target. The Target
:Number for the spell is the target's Natural Body Attribute.
:
:The spell has a Threshold of 1/2 the target's body (I'm guessing rounded
:down) plus the difference between the body of the animal form and the
:target's natural body attribute. (one point of argument is I say the
:difference goes both ways, the player thinks it should only apply to
:shapeshifting into larger animals and not smaller animals)

It aplies both ways. Changing into a small animal can be a BIG
advantage to stealth, and where does all that extra mass go? Sure, "its
magic", but that means somebody has to work some extra mojo...

:Threshold means that that is the absolute minimum number of successes you
:need to achieve to successfully cast the spell.

Correct. NET successes, actually- if the target was magic resistant, or
for some reason somebody tried to block the spell, you'd need that many NET
succeses.

:The difference between the creature form's body and the target's natural
:body is the minimum Force the spell must be to make the change.
:
:EXAMPLES
:Said character has a body of 5 and the spell "Shapechange" at 5. If he
:wanted to become a Bat, which has a body of 1 he would need at least a
:force 4 spell, with a difficulty of his body (5), and a Threshold of 1/2
:his body plus the difference between his natural body and the bat's (7).
:Or, another words, he needs 7 successes at difficulty 5.

Watch your math- half of 5 is 2, and you add 4. That 6 net successes
at TN 5- still pretty damn hard. But then, you ARE turning a tough, largish
runner into a flying mouse...

:If the same character wanted to become an Elephant (Body 15 with 3 points
:of natural armor) he would still have a difficulty of 5 (his Body) but
:would have to have at least a Force 13 spell (the difference between his
:body and the elephant's) and even if he did he would need 15 successes
:(the difference plus half the target's body).

The diffrence is ten, and half the body is 2. That's 12 succeses. A
powerful intiaite could do it, using some karma and some foci.

:Am I right?
: -- Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle

On the rules, it seems so. On the math, maybe not.

Mongoose
Message no. 3
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 18:06:34 -0400
<snip description of Shapechanging>
:Am I right?
: -- Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle

On the rules, it seems so. On the math, maybe not.

LOL... um, I guess I was in a bit of a hurry.


*blush*,
-- Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle
Message no. 4
From: Sinabian@***.com Sinabian@***.com
Subject: Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:15:29 EDT
In a message dated 9/15/00 4:05:11 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
m0ng005e@*****.com writes:

<snip a lot of copy and reply and mathematics>

<< On the rules, it seems so. On the math, maybe not.

Mongoose >>


It seems that would be a matter of judgement. He's rounding up where you're
rounding down and maybe he's doing that just to make it that much harder. Not
sure in this instance, but some of the rules say round up and others say
round down... Just my .02¥
Message no. 5
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:11:47 -0400
<snip>
I don't even know if Mr. Kenson still subscribes to the list, but I would
really like an *official* ruling on this. If you are out there I would
much appreciate it.
</snip>

I would like to thank those of you who answered me on, and off, of the
list. I would also like to apologize to Mr. Kenson for using the list to
attempt to contact him for a matter that probably seems/is pretty trivial.


Thanks again folks,
-- Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle
Message no. 6
From: Lars Wagner Hansen l-hansen@*****.tele.dk
Subject: Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:32:33 +0200
<Sinabian@***.com> wrote:

>It seems that would be a matter of judgement. He's rounding up where you're
>rounding down and maybe he's doing that just to make it that much harder.
Not
>sure in this instance, but some of the rules say round up and others say
>round down... Just my .02¥

I've always played "round down" unless it secifically said round up in a
rule. Since there is no mentioning of rounding up/down in the Shapechange
spell, I would assume it was round down. Anothre difference was that
Aristotle <antithesis@**********.com> included the elephants 3 armor as
extra Body. I'm not sure about this. Should a critters Armor be included in
the final Body?

Lars
--
The solution to many problems lies in having somebody else do the work.
[Andrew S. Tanenbaum]
--
Lars Wagner Hansen mailto:l-hansen@*****.tele.dk
Jagtvej 11 http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
DK-4180 Sorø phone +45 5783 5950
Denmark
Message no. 7
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 19:09:34 +1200 (NZST)
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:

> I've always played "round down" unless it secifically said round up in a
> rule. Since there is no mentioning of rounding up/down in the Shapechange
> spell, I would assume it was round down. Anothre difference was that
> Aristotle <antithesis@**********.com> included the elephants 3 armor as
> extra Body. I'm not sure about this. Should a critters Armor be included in
> the final Body?
Since it only says "for determining the Threshold", I'd only add it to
body for determining the Threshold. On the other hand, I'm a player, not a
GM, so obviously I'm biased. On the gripping hand, it doesn't say to add
armour to body for any other purpose in the spell description.

Make of that what you will (as long as it's not a paper hat...)
--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 8
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:48:50 GMT
>From: "Lars Wagner Hansen" <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>
>Another difference was that
>Aristotle <antithesis@**********.com> included the elephants 3 armor as
>extra Body. I'm not sure about this. Should a critters Armor be included in
>the final Body?

"If a critter form has an armor rating , add the armor for body for
determining the threshold." That way players aren't going to be turning
into many gargoyles.

Where it says "changes target into a normal critter" does that mean only the
ones on pg 19 or Critters or are others allowed?

Phil

Let us assume we have a can opener.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
Message no. 9
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:38:41 EDT
"Aristotle" <antithesis@**********.com> wrote:
>I don't even know if Mr. Kenson still subscribes to the list, but I would

>really like an *official* ruling on this. If you are out there I would

>much appreciate it.

Oh, yeah, I'm still around, I just haven't posted much because I've been
quite busy lately (writing three novels in six months will do that to you).

First, the mandatory disclaimer. This is merely My Humble Opinion. It is not
"official" or FASA cannon. Those answers are found only in print or directly
from someone at FASA. That said...


>I've come into conflict with a player over how the spell shapechange

>works. I will provide the way I've explained it to my player, and if

>possible the player's argument against it.


>Shapechange

>The spell can only be applied to the mage, or a willing target. The Target

>Number for the spell is the target's Natural Body Attribute.

This, according to MitS, p. 148, is correct.


>The spell has a Threshold of 1/2 the target's body (I'm guessing rounded

>down) plus the difference between the body of the animal form and the

>target's natural body attribute. (one point of argument is I say the

>difference goes both ways, the player thinks it should only apply to

>shapeshifting into larger animals and not smaller animals)

Yes, you round down to determine Threshold. And, yes, it's the difference
between the subject's Body and the desired form's, whether it's an increase
or a decrease (reducing mass is just as difficult as adding it).


>Threshold means that that is the absolute minimum number of successes you

>need to achieve to successfully cast the spell.

Correct.


>The difference between the creature form's body and the target's natural

>body is the minimum Force the spell must be to make the change.

Correct.


>Said character has a body of 5 and the spell "Shapechange" at 5. If he

>wanted to become a Bat, which has a body of 1 he would need at least a

>force 4 spell, with a difficulty of his body (5), and a Threshold of 1/2

>his body plus the difference between his natural body and the bat's (7).

>Or, another words, he needs 7 successes at difficulty 5.

6 successes (difference 4 + threshold 2). Otherwise correct.


>If the same character wanted to become an Elephant (Body 15 with 3 points

>of natural armor) he would still have a difficulty of 5 (his Body) but

>would have to have at least a Force 13 spell (the difference between his

>body and the elephant's) and even if he did he would need 15 successes

>(the difference plus half the target's body).

12 successes (difference 10 + theshold 2). Still not easy. Now you know why
people don't turn into elephants a lot in Shadowrun ;-)


>Am I right?

Looks like you've got it to me.

Take care,

Steve Kenson

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 10
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 01:55:59 -0500
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

----__JNP_000_0c8d.13f3.140f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:38:41 EDT TalonMail@***.com writes:
> "Aristotle" <antithesis@**********.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
> First, the mandatory disclaimer. This is merely My Humble Opinion.
> It is not
> "official" or FASA cannon. Those answers are found only in print or
> directly
> from someone at FASA. That said...
>
>
> >I've come into conflict with a player over how the spell
> >shapechange
> >works. I will provide the way I've explained it to my player, and
> >if
> >possible the player's argument against it.
<SNIP>

> >The spell has a Threshold of 1/2 the target's body (I'm guessing
> >rounded
> >down) plus the difference between the body of the animal form and
> >the
> >target's natural body attribute. (one point of argument is I say
> >the
> >difference goes both ways, the player thinks it should only apply
> >to
> >shapeshifting into larger animals and not smaller animals)

> Yes, you round down to determine Threshold. And, yes, it's the
> difference
> between the subject's Body and the desired form's, whether it's an
> increase
> or a decrease (reducing mass is just as difficult as adding it).

<SNIP>

Your comment just gave me an idea on how to explain the increased target
number to Aristotle's player:

When you assume a larger and/or denser form, you increase in mass. At the
end of the spell duration, you decrease in mass.

When you assume a smaller and/or less dense form, you decrease in mass.
At the end of the spell duration, you increase in mass.

The point is that regardless of which "direction" you go initially, you
will increase in mass *and* decrease in mass as part of the spell.

If the player is still stubborn about it, make the PC make sorcery test
to change back! ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
----__JNP_000_0c8d.13f3.140f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"
http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bottomMargin=0 leftMargin=3 rightMargin=3 topMargin=0>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:38:41 EDT TalonMail@***.com writes:<BR>&gt;
&quot;Aristotle&quot; &lt;antithesis@**********.com&gt;
wrote:<BR>&lt;SNIP&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; First, the mandatory disclaimer. This is merely My Humble Opinion.
<BR>&gt; It is not <BR>&gt; &quot;official&quot; or FASA
cannon. Those answers
are found only in print or <BR>&gt; directly <BR>&gt; from someone at
FASA. That
said...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;I've come into
conflict with a player over
how the spell <BR>&gt; &gt;shapechange<BR>&gt; &gt;works. I
will provide the way
I've explained it to my player, and <BR>&gt; &gt;if<BR>&gt;
&gt;possible the
player's argument against it.<BR>&lt;SNIP&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; &gt;The spell has a Threshold of 1/2 the target's body (I'm
guessing
<BR>&gt; &gt;rounded<BR>&gt; &gt;down) plus the difference
between the body of
the animal form and <BR>&gt; &gt;the<BR>&gt; &gt;target's
natural body
attribute. (one point of argument is I say <BR>&gt;
&gt;the<BR>&gt;
&gt;difference goes both ways, the player thinks it should only apply
<BR>&gt;
&gt;to<BR>&gt; &gt;shapeshifting into larger animals and not smaller
animals)<BR><BR>&gt; Yes, you round down to determine Threshold. And, yes,
it's
the <BR>&gt; difference <BR>&gt; between the subject's Body and the
desired
form's, whether it's an <BR>&gt; increase <BR>&gt; or a decrease
(reducing mass
is just as difficult as adding it).<BR></DIV>
<DIV>&lt;SNIP&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Your comment just gave me an idea on how to explain the increased target
number to Aristotle's player:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When you assume a larger and/or denser form, you increase in mass. At the
end of the spell duration, you decrease in mass.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When you assume a smaller and/or less dense form, you decrease in mass. At
the end of the spell duration, you increase in mass.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The point is that regardless of which &quot;direction&quot; you go
initially, you will increase in mass *and* decrease in mass as part of the
spell.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If the player is still stubborn about it, make the PC make sorcery test to
change back! ;)</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--<BR>D. Ghost<BR>Profanity is the one language all
programmers know
best<BR>- Troutman's 6th programming
postulate.<BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

----__JNP_000_0c8d.13f3.140f--

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 11
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 01:55:59 -0500
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

----__JNP_000_0c8d.13f3.140f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:38:41 EDT TalonMail@***.com writes:
> "Aristotle" <antithesis@**********.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
> First, the mandatory disclaimer. This is merely My Humble Opinion.
> It is not
> "official" or FASA cannon. Those answers are found only in print or
> directly
> from someone at FASA. That said...
>
>
> >I've come into conflict with a player over how the spell
> >shapechange
> >works. I will provide the way I've explained it to my player, and
> >if
> >possible the player's argument against it.
<SNIP>

> >The spell has a Threshold of 1/2 the target's body (I'm guessing
> >rounded
> >down) plus the difference between the body of the animal form and
> >the
> >target's natural body attribute. (one point of argument is I say
> >the
> >difference goes both ways, the player thinks it should only apply
> >to
> >shapeshifting into larger animals and not smaller animals)

> Yes, you round down to determine Threshold. And, yes, it's the
> difference
> between the subject's Body and the desired form's, whether it's an
> increase
> or a decrease (reducing mass is just as difficult as adding it).

<SNIP>

Your comment just gave me an idea on how to explain the increased target
number to Aristotle's player:

When you assume a larger and/or denser form, you increase in mass. At the
end of the spell duration, you decrease in mass.

When you assume a smaller and/or less dense form, you decrease in mass.
At the end of the spell duration, you increase in mass.

The point is that regardless of which "direction" you go initially, you
will increase in mass *and* decrease in mass as part of the spell.

If the player is still stubborn about it, make the PC make sorcery test
to change back! ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
----__JNP_000_0c8d.13f3.140f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"
http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bottomMargin=0 leftMargin=3 rightMargin=3 topMargin=0>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:38:41 EDT TalonMail@***.com writes:<BR>&gt;
&quot;Aristotle&quot; &lt;antithesis@**********.com&gt;
wrote:<BR>&lt;SNIP&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; First, the mandatory disclaimer. This is merely My Humble Opinion.
<BR>&gt; It is not <BR>&gt; &quot;official&quot; or FASA
cannon. Those answers
are found only in print or <BR>&gt; directly <BR>&gt; from someone at
FASA. That
said...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;I've come into
conflict with a player over
how the spell <BR>&gt; &gt;shapechange<BR>&gt; &gt;works. I
will provide the way
I've explained it to my player, and <BR>&gt; &gt;if<BR>&gt;
&gt;possible the
player's argument against it.<BR>&lt;SNIP&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; &gt;The spell has a Threshold of 1/2 the target's body (I'm
guessing
<BR>&gt; &gt;rounded<BR>&gt; &gt;down) plus the difference
between the body of
the animal form and <BR>&gt; &gt;the<BR>&gt; &gt;target's
natural body
attribute. (one point of argument is I say <BR>&gt;
&gt;the<BR>&gt;
&gt;difference goes both ways, the player thinks it should only apply
<BR>&gt;
&gt;to<BR>&gt; &gt;shapeshifting into larger animals and not smaller
animals)<BR><BR>&gt; Yes, you round down to determine Threshold. And, yes,
it's
the <BR>&gt; difference <BR>&gt; between the subject's Body and the
desired
form's, whether it's an <BR>&gt; increase <BR>&gt; or a decrease
(reducing mass
is just as difficult as adding it).<BR></DIV>
<DIV>&lt;SNIP&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Your comment just gave me an idea on how to explain the increased target
number to Aristotle's player:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When you assume a larger and/or denser form, you increase in mass. At the
end of the spell duration, you decrease in mass.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When you assume a smaller and/or less dense form, you decrease in mass. At
the end of the spell duration, you increase in mass.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The point is that regardless of which &quot;direction&quot; you go
initially, you will increase in mass *and* decrease in mass as part of the
spell.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If the player is still stubborn about it, make the PC make sorcery test to
change back! ;)</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--<BR>D. Ghost<BR>Profanity is the one language all
programmers know
best<BR>- Troutman's 6th programming
postulate.<BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

----__JNP_000_0c8d.13f3.140f--

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Shapechange, ATTN: Steve Kenson, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!