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Message no. 1
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Shape Change spells
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 11:04:23 -0400
I was discussing this with one of my players, and I thought you guys
might be interested to know what came out of it, but first, a little bit
of background :

yep, in my game I have the dreaded mage with the psersonal Tiger Form
spell. Then, I got to thinking, what are the limitations on shapechange.
Can a mage turn himself into an elephant, and still use extra dice to
further augment his physical attributes? First stop to answering the
questio : Ka-Ge. In one questions forum it was suggested to limit
shapechange into things with a body close to that of the mage. +/- 2 was
suggested. It was too restricting, in my oppinion. So I came up with this :

Before starting to put magical energy into improving the physical
shape of the critter, the magician must first use it to expand/compress
his physical matter to accomodate the new form. That means that a mage
must get 2 successes for each point of difference in body just to succeed
in shape-changing. If any successes are left afterward, they can be used
to augment the physical attributes of the animal form.

That does put a somewhat limitating effect on the tiger, no
(let's see, average mage -> 4 body. Tiger, 8 body. So mage needs 8 successes
just to become a tiger.)

what do you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 11:34:42 -0400
Steve Menard writes:

> Before starting to put magical energy into improving the physical
> shape of the critter, the magician must first use it to expand/compress
> his physical matter to accomodate the new form. That means that a mage
> must get 2 successes for each point of difference in body just to succeed
> in shape-changing. If any successes are left afterward, they can be used
> to augment the physical attributes of the animal form.

I have a similar restriction (the game would be a bit overwacky if the mage
could turn into a cockroach to spy on people, or a blue whale as was
suggested once before), but I modify the Target Number instead of the
successes required. +2 to the TN for every plus or minus 50% body mass.
My justification is that you're creating or destroying mass from mana, and
although mana ('energy') is ultimately conserved when the spell ends, the
process takes a lot of effort.

I also like the idea of extra successes augmenting the animal's attributes..
I'll have to keep that one in mind. Thanks!


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "Everybody wants to go to heaven,
Please don't blame anyone else. | but nobody wants to die."
Message no. 3
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 09:28:41 -0700
><Wolfbane>>>Yep, in my game I have the dreaded mage with the personal
Tiger
>Form spell.
-----
So did I.
____
><Wolfbane>>>Ka-Ge: In one questions forum it was suggested to )limit
shapechange into things with a body close to that of the )mage. +/- 2 was
suggested. It was too restricting, in my )oppinion.
----
I agree. I used success on a 2:1 basis, to modify the size first (size was
based on estimated mass: mini, v.sm, sm., man, lrg, v. lrg, giantic) then
any extra successes went into improving the stats.
----
)<Wolfbane>>>So I came up with this :
> Before starting to put magical energy into improving the )physical shape
of the critter, the magician must first use it to )expand/compress his
physical matter to accomodate the new form. )That means that a mage
>must get 2 successes for each point of difference in body just to )succeed
in shape-changing. If any successes are left afterward, )they can be used to
augment the physical attributes of the animal )form.
----
I think this sounds very plausible. Using the body instead of some
arbitrary size like I was doing simplifies the problem. While it may seem
to be too restricting at first, when you have mages using personal Tiger
Form spells, the drain is lower, they most likely can pump a lot of there
pool into the spell, if they are initiates they can use centering, they have
foci to increase the number of dice they can use. All these variables give
them plently of power to create a powerful tiger (or any other animal), even
with the size restriction.

Enjoy.
Brian
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Breakdowns come and breakdowns go---
What are you going to do about it-
that's what I'd like to know.

-Paul Simon
*****************************************************************
"Nurse Wratchet": bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu
or brian-stewart@**.arizona.edu
*****************************************************************
Message no. 4
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:04:04 -0600
On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Menard Steve wrote:

> yep, in my game I have the dreaded mage with the psersonal Tiger Form
> spell. Then, I got to thinking, what are the limitations on shapechange.
> Can a mage turn himself into an elephant, and still use extra dice to
> further augment his physical attributes? First stop to answering the
> questio : Ka-Ge. In one questions forum it was suggested to limit
> shapechange into things with a body close to that of the mage. +/- 2 was
> suggested. It was too restricting, in my oppinion. So I came up with this :

Oh, mine's worse. A mage in my party had the tiger form locked, as
well. But his favorite form of attack was to shapechange into a fly, fly
into a person's mouth, then shapechange back into a tiger. I couldn't
stop him with rules, so I told him he had to stop it. Needless to say,
he wielded the rules against me and whined. He continued to try, I told
him he couldn't, and if he continued I would have to aask him to leave.
So he did. End of problem, though.

I do agree, though, that some spells and other things need to be modified
to disallow this kind of rule lawyering. But I don't subscribe to Ka-ge.


> what do you think?

I like the idea of minimum successes, but it doesn't stop the mage from
becoming a bacteria, then invading someone's body (as an extreme
example. The mage player i discussed before tried this first.

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes after an electrical storm I see in 5 dimensions. Why are the
sixty of you looking at me like that?"

--Cornfed, from _Duckman_
Message no. 5
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:08:22 -0600
On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:

> I have a similar restriction (the game would be a bit overwacky if the mage
> could turn into a cockroach to spy on people, or a blue whale as was
> suggested once before), but I modify the Target Number instead of the
> successes required. +2 to the TN for every plus or minus 50% body mass.
> My justification is that you're creating or destroying mass from mana, and
> although mana ('energy') is ultimately conserved when the spell ends, the
> process takes a lot of effort.

I like this rule. It also has some game description behind it, which I
like. I don't think that changing mass should be an easy process.

> I also like the idea of extra successes augmenting the animal's attributes..
> I'll have to keep that one in mind. Thanks!

I think that the successes-get-you-attributes thing is actually in the
original GrimII spell description.

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes after an electrical storm I see in 5 dimensions. Why are the
sixty of you looking at me like that?"

--Cornfed, from _Duckman_
Message no. 6
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:24:50 -0400
John IV writes:

> Oh, mine's worse. A mage in my party had the tiger form locked, as
> well. But his favorite form of attack was to shapechange into a fly, fly
> into a person's mouth, then shapechange back into a tiger.

Fly into a person's mouth? First, what's the person doing with his/her
mouth open? Second, what's to stop the person from biting the fly in half
or smashing it against the roof of his/her mouth as a reflex? Third, sure,
you'll probably split someone's head open this way, but wouldn't the MAGE
take damage from expanding in such a confined space? Skulls are very hard
objects; the fly/tiger/mage would NOT be unscathed.

You don't need to tell people they can't do things like this; you just have
to point out that such ideas are ridiculous, and if they insist on doing it
then come up with some harmful logical consequences. (Or bad guys with
flyswatters.) >8->



> I do agree, though, that some spells and other things need to be modified
> to disallow this kind of rule lawyering. But I don't subscribe to Ka-ge.

Yep.. I had to heavily revise the Control Thoughts spell to stop my shaman
from setting Mr. Johnson's starting negotiation price every time. Now the
spell still works as it used to, but the extent of the influence depends on
the number of successes rolled.. If the resisting target rolls more
successes, he/she knows about the mind control attempt, and Bad Things
Happen to the shaman as a result.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "I'll make the command easy to
My opinions are my opinions. | remember, like CTRL-ALT-F4-DEL."
Please don't blame anyone else. | - Dilbert (by Scott Adams)
Message no. 7
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:30:17 -0400
>>>>> "John" == John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
writes:

John> Oh, mine's worse. A mage in my party had the tiger form locked, as
John> well. But his favorite form of attack was to shapechange into a
John> fly, fly into a person's mouth, then shapechange back into a
John> tiger.

So... you did make him take as much damage as he dished out when he did
that, right?

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 8
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:26:10 -0700
John IV writes:

>Oh, mine's worse. A mage in my party had the tiger form locked, )as well.
But his favorite form of attack was to shapechange into )a fly, fly into a
person's mouth, then shapechange back into a )tiger.

Very creative application, but I hope the mage took damage from expanding
inside such a solid space. Besides the difficulty in flying into a persons
mouth. I would require at least a T#8, in addition to someone trying to
stop the fly from flying into their mouth. Whenever, problems like this
come up; instead of just saying no, I try to pick apart the problem and find
out where the weakness(s) in their arguemetns are, and show them how foolish
certain applications can be, but if they insist on attempting it, then they
must be willing to face the consequences the gm dishes out.
---story line---Ok, Fly Boy, you fly towards the sec guards face roll your
quickness. OOPS. Out of the corner of your multifacted eye you detect
movement, attempting to fly away from the source you feel a tremendous
impact against your back and wings, next thing you see is a giant leather
sole coming down on you (roll your will). You atempt to shake off the
stunning effects of the hit you took earlier, but are unable too. As you
watch in dismay the leather sole covering your vision, then feel the
lifeblood being forced out of your body.<Sec Guard--Frag it I hate flies!
That one won't be bothering us again. Hey Sam Security want to lick it off
my boot (grin).?----

>I like the idea of minimum successes, but it doesn't stop the )mage from
becoming a bacteria, then invading someone's body (as )an extreme example.
The mage player i discussed before tried )this first.
>
If you have a mage who can generate enough sucesses to make herself a
bacteria (I would say maby 100+/-, bacteria are microscopic), then let them
do it.

Best of Luck.
Enjoy.

Brian
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Breakdowns come and breakdowns go---
What are you going to do about it-
that's what I'd like to know.

-Paul Simon
*****************************************************************
"Nurse Wratchet": bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu
or brian-stewart@**.arizona.edu
*****************************************************************
Message no. 9
From: Charles KcKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 18:21:00 -0500
> Oh, mine's worse. A mage in my party had the tiger form locked, as
> well. But his favorite form of attack was to shapechange into a fly, fly
> into a person's mouth, then shapechange back into a tiger. I couldn't
> stop him with rules, so I told him he had to stop it. Needless to say,
> he wielded the rules against me and whined. He continued to try, I told
> him he couldn't, and if he continued I would have to aask him to leave.
> So he did. End of problem, though.
Just have the person bite down real hard or sneeze...

Kilroy
Message no. 10
From: Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 01:36:50 +01.0
On 3 Aug 95 at 15:24, S.F. Eley wrote:
> Yep.. I had to heavily revise the Control Thoughts spell to stop my
> shaman from setting Mr. Johnson's starting negotiation price every
> time. Now the spell still works as it used to, but the extent of
> the influence depends on the number of successes rolled.. If the
> resisting target rolls more successes, he/she knows about the mind
> control attempt, and Bad Things Happen to the shaman as a result.

The silly buggers I call players tried that with me also once. Don't
forget that the duration of the spell is "sustained". Now mister
Johnson under influence agrees to pay them 10 times the usual pay,
but will he still be inclined to pay them that money once the mage
drops the spell? :> Nope mr J. will probably be seriously pissed of,
and take actions against the untrustworthy runners. Not paying them
for the run will be the first, and there may be more to follow :>:>

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Geek Code v3.0:
GLS d-(+) s+:+ a?(26) C+(++) U P? L? E? W+ N++ K? w+ O- M- V? PS+ PE-
Y+ PGP t+(--) 5? X++ R+(++) tv b+++ DI? D++ G+ e++ h+(!) r y+
Message no. 11
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 20:42:14 -0400
Brian Stewart writes:
> John IV writes:
>
> >I like the idea of minimum successes, but it doesn't stop the )mage from
> becoming a bacteria, then invading someone's body (as )an extreme example.
> The mage player i discussed before tried )this first.
> >
> If you have a mage who can generate enough sucesses to make herself a
> bacteria (I would say maby 100+/-, bacteria are microscopic), then let them
> do it.


Yep.. And give them all the sensory and locomotive abilities of that
bacteria too! >8->

(Of course, simply requiring them to name the species of bacteria would be
enough to stop most non-Biology majors..)


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "Nondeterminism means never
Please don't blame anyone else. | having to say you're wrong."
Message no. 12
From: "Lindblom Fredrik, Training" <fredrik.lindblom@*******.TELIA.SE>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 10:02:00 PDT
Yes, my players tried the fly-thing too. My response at the time was to
interpret the spell description literally. Thus "Normal Critter" was a
critter from the "Normal Critters"-table in the black book only.

I like the Idea with successes needed to change body, though.


MxM
Message no. 13
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 12:43:59 -0600
On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

[delete]
> John> fly, fly into a person's mouth, then shapechange back into a
> John> tiger.
>
> So... you did make him take as much damage as he dished out when he did
> that, right?

Ummmm... I didn't think about it at the time, because I was so
frustrated by it. I guess it's kind of an obvious solution, though,
isn't it? :)

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes after an electrical storm I see in 5 dimensions. Why are the
sixty of you looking at me like that?"

--Cornfed, from _Duckman_
Message no. 14
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 12:51:04 -0600
On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Brian A. Stewart wrote:

> Very creative application, but I hope the mage took damage from expanding
> inside such a solid space. Besides the difficulty in flying into a persons
> mouth. I would require at least a T#8, in addition to someone trying to
> stop the fly from flying into their mouth. Whenever, problems like this
> come up; instead of just saying no, I try to pick apart the problem and find
> out where the weakness(s) in their arguemetns are, and show them how foolish
> certain applications can be, but if they insist on attempting it, then they
> must be willing to face the consequences the gm dishes out.

I have another campaign now, and this is generally what I do. I don't
like to say "you can't." I'd rather say, "you can, but..."

> >I like the idea of minimum successes, but it doesn't stop the )mage from
> becoming a bacteria, then invading someone's body (as )an extreme example.
> The mage player i discussed before tried )this first.
> >
> If you have a mage who can generate enough sucesses to make herself a
> bacteria (I would say maby 100+/-, bacteria are microscopic), then let them
> do it.

The idea of having to beat a greater difficulty to alter your shape more
is something I like. Same with requiring a threshold. But what do you
do if the character's got that shapechange spell that's limited plus
having a specific spell focus?

> Best of Luck.
> Enjoy.

Thanks.

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes after an electrical storm I see in 5 dimensions. Why are the
sixty of you looking at me like that?"

--Cornfed, from _Duckman_
Message no. 15
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 12:53:10 -0600
On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Charles KcKenzie wrote:

> Just have the person bite down real hard or sneeze...

I did have an opposed test of unarmed combat, but he won anyway. In any
case, I think that I can handle it a little better with the advice
given. Thanks, everybody, for your input.

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes after an electrical storm I see in 5 dimensions. Why are the
sixty of you looking at me like that?"

--Cornfed, from _Duckman_
Message no. 16
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 12:45:11 -0700
John IV writes:

>The idea of having to beat a greater difficulty to alter your shape more
>is something I like. Same with requiring a threshold. But what do you
>do if the character's got that shapechange spell that's limited plus
>having a specific spell focus?
-----
I'm glad I'm not the only one with players like this.
I let them do it; afterall, why stifle creativity. But I will try to find
every weakness and limitation they have in the new form, and expect them to
play it. Also, if they can do it, so can the npc's (evil gm grin). Thanks
for the insight.

Enjoy.
Brian

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Breakdowns come and breakdowns go---
What are you going to do about it-
that's what I'd like to know.

-Paul Simon
*****************************************************************
"Nurse Wratchet": bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu
or brian-stewart@**.arizona.edu
*****************************************************************
Message no. 17
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 08:50:56 +0200
:->On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Brian A. Stewart wrote:
:->
:->> Very creative application, but I hope the mage took damage from expanding
:->> inside such a solid space. Besides the difficulty in flying into a persons
:->
:->> mouth.
Why does it have to be the mage. Case the spell on something like
a poisonous toad, change it to gnat. Using somesort of critter
control spell fly into said apparture. Drop both spells...

Sec. Guard is yawning, feels somthing on his toungue. Suddenly
his mouth is filled with poisonous (dead) toad. He is a) poisoned b)
chocking to death c) it would probably be easier to shoot him.

Andre'
<031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>

Its time for a new sig, when I think of one I'll append it.
-Andre'

Boom Boom Shake the Room !
-Phoenix, Pyromanical Hermetic Mage of Seattle 2053
Message no. 18
From: Allen Versfeld <aversfel@****.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:14:27 +0200
> > >I like the idea of minimum successes, but it doesn't stop the )mage from
> > becoming a bacteria, then invading someone's body (as )an extreme example.
> > The mage player i discussed before tried )this first.

Not possible. One single bacteria (sp? bacterium? what the hell is a
single bacteria called?) can't hurt you - it first has to reproduce until
there are millions of them, and only then can it hurt you.

I doubt that any spell could allow you to reproduce by fusion ;-)
Message no. 19
From: "Lindblom Fredrik, Training" <fredrik.lindblom@*******.TELIA.SE>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:25:00 PDT
I'm not so sure about this, since I don't have the grimmy here, but...

Never mind the player mage shapechanging into hideous things. What about him
running around changing sec guards into, say, sheep? If I remember it right,
range is limited, and the spell is not resisted!

Big ork with hvy sec armor and a laser wanders into the storage room the
players are hiding in. The mage makes a few arcane gestures and WHAMMO! A
confused "braaah" is heard from the entrance followed by several
"twang-ZAP"s as the other players cheerfully stun the sheep senseless with
tasers...

Now, this has not really ever _occured_ in my campaign...

yet... :)


MxM
Message no. 20
From: MENARD Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:53:51 -0400
On Mon, 7 Aug 1995, Lindblom Fredrik, Training wrote:

> I'm not so sure about this, since I don't have the grimmy here, but...
>
> Never mind the player mage shapechanging into hideous things. What about him
> running around changing sec guards into, say, sheep? If I remember it right,
> range is limited, and the spell is not resisted!
>
> Big ork with hvy sec armor and a laser wanders into the storage room the
> players are hiding in. The mage makes a few arcane gestures and WHAMMO! A
> confused "braaah" is heard from the entrance followed by several
> "twang-ZAP"s as the other players cheerfully stun the sheep senseless with
> tasers...
>
> Now, this has not really ever _occured_ in my campaign...

well, it might not be resisted, but it still packs a punch(somethin
like serious drain). SO if your mage wants to run around doing that, let
him! after the third he's not gonna be worth much anymore. I also suggest
the threshold rule(2 success by 1 body point diference). an average guard
will have 4-5 Body, I'd say a sheep has 2. so that 4-6 successes, just
enoufh so that the mage has to put magic poll into casting, so there's
less for resisting drain!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 21
From: "Lindblom Fredrik, Training" <fredrik.lindblom@*******.TELIA.SE>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 19:25:00 PDT
> well, it might not be resisted, but it still packs a punch(somethin
>like serious drain). SO if your mage wants to run around doing that, let
>him! after the third he's not gonna be worth much anymore. I also suggest
>the threshold rule(2 success by 1 body point diference). an average guard
>will have 4-5 Body, I'd say a sheep has 2. so that 4-6 successes, just
>enoufh so that the mage has to put magic poll into casting, so there's
>less for resisting drain!

Hmmm...ok, what if I make it exclusive, and with a specific spell focus and
a power focus and expendable fetish and redesign it to "shapechange biped
into sheep" quite restricted target, neh? HEY, who let this munchkin enter
the house! WHAMMO! Braaah...

Sorry, Steve, I had to...:-)


MxM
Message no. 22
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 15:02:21 -0400
> I'm not so sure about this, since I don't have the grimmy here, but...
>
> Never mind the player mage shapechanging into hideous things. What about him
> running around changing sec guards into, say, sheep? If I remember it right,
> range is limited, and the spell is not resisted!

Voluntary target.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "Program flowering --
My opinions are my opinions. | Procedures, functions, data
Please don't blame anyone else. | Bloom effervescent."
Message no. 23
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 19:59:22 +0200
> Never mind the player mage shapechanging into hideous things. What about him
> running around changing sec guards into, say, sheep? If I remember it right,
> range is limited, and the spell is not resisted!
Grimoire p. 132: "This spell transforms a VOLUNTARY target...", so there is no
need to resist (and you can't transform a sec guard, of course!)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 24
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 17:08:15 +0000
> I'm not so sure about this, since I don't have the grimmy here, but...
> Never mind the player mage shapechanging into hideous things. What about him
> running around changing sec guards into, say, sheep? If I remember it right,
> range is limited, and the spell is not resisted!
>
> Now, this has not really ever _occured_ in my campaign...

Helicopter gunship sweeps in, rockets armed and miniguns spinning up...

Coyote shaman kicks in polarising filters on her cybereyes to cut reflection
on canopy, stares at pilot.

Pilot loses interest in strafing run, begins wondering how to catch flies
on his tongue. The doorgunner doesn't have time to try kissing the frog who
is now sitting in the pilot's seat before the helicopter crashes...

Okay, it would have been easier to mana-bolt the pilot or shoot at the helo
or something. But for a Coyote shaman it was irresistible...

It used to be a Threshold spell: so you needed a fairly good roll to get
it to work. But it certainly was funny :-)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:39:02 +0200
>Never mind the player mage shapechanging into hideous things. What about him
>running around changing sec guards into, say, sheep? If I remember it right,
>range is limited, and the spell is not resisted!

Our shaman did that with the guard in the tower in HB... Only it was a bat,
not a sheep...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wicked mental dope
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 26
From: "Lindblom Fredrik, Training" <fredrik.lindblom@*******.TELIA.SE>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:21:00 PDT
Sascha wrote:

>Grimoire p. 132: "This spell transforms a VOLUNTARY target...", so there is
no
>need to resist (and you can't transform a sec guard, of course!)

Are we talking about the same spell here? (Sorry, don't have the rules with
me...)


MxM
Message no. 27
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:44:19 +0200
:->Sascha wrote:
:->
:->>Grimoire p. 132: "This spell transforms a VOLUNTARY target...", so
there is
:->no need to resist (and you can't transform a sec guard, of
:->course!)
What is the definition of a voluntary target ? The mage obviously can
cast the spell on himself, no problems, but what about casting on
another individual, more persons unless they have done this
repeatedly and successfully would unconsciously balk or resist at the
idea of changing into a some sort of critter.


Another question, what happens if the character casting the spell on
himself happens to have cyberware, lets say thermographics and
he/changes into a goat (for whatever reason). Does this 'goat' have
thermographic vision ? Actually at the same time what happens to
bioware ?

Andre'
<031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>

Its time for a new sig, when I think of one I'll append it.
-Andre'

Boom Boom Shake the Room !
-Phoenix, Pyromanical Hermetic Mage of Seattle 2053
Message no. 28
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:10:14 +0200
> :->Sascha wrote:
> :->
> :->>Grimoire p. 132: "This spell transforms a VOLUNTARY target...",so
there is
> :->no need to resist (and you can't transform a sec guard, of
> :->course!)
> What is the definition of a voluntary target ? The mage obviously can
> cast the spell on himself, no problems, but what about casting on
> another individual, more persons unless they have done this
> repeatedly and successfully would unconsciously balk or resist at the
> idea of changing into a some sort of critter.
Grimoire p. 123: "Voluntary Subject Required [...]: This modifier affects
spells that only work on a voluntary target. The target must know that
the spell is being used on him _and_ must accept the magic willingly."

That may throw up the question about Control Thoughts/Control Emotion,
but Shapechange alone does not allow a not-knowing-what-happens
guard-ant.
Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 29
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 01:10:40 +1000
Lindblom Fredrik, Training writes:

> Are we talking about the same spell here? (Sorry, don't have the rules with
> me...)

Shapechange, the spell that transforms someone and gives them attribute
boosts, is a voluntary spell.
Transform, the spell that transforms someone and gives them the intelligence
of the creature the're transformed into is not a voluntary spell. Nor,
according to the book, is it resisted. However, I rule that it is.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shape Change spells
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:42:09 +0200
>Shapechange, the spell that transforms someone and gives them attribute
>boosts, is a voluntary spell.

You know the good thing about Shapechange? Its TN is the subject's
Willpower. That means our dwarf shaman (the usual subject for her own
Shapechange spell) needs to roll 7s to use it :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wicked mental dope
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)

Further Reading

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