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Message no. 1
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 00:26:56 -0400 (EDT)
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At 11:40 PM 8/4/99 -0400, Darrell L. Bowman wrote:
:> Level 2 - Lady Pandora Winter, Albino Fox Shapeshifter Wu Jen.

:Didn't we just have this discussion on the list (I don't
:remember the concensus of the group though). Can a
:shapeshifter be a magician?

Yes, they can, for the past decade or so this game's been around. :)

In the critters chapter of BBB1, p.179, it reads: "Beings that can
function as magicians are termed active."

The listing for shapeshifters a few pages later lists their Magic
Capability as "Many are active"

The critters chapter of BBB2 lists the exact same information.

The Critters sourcebooklet that comes with the SR3 GM Screen doesn't
use the "Active/Innate" clasification for Magic Capability that was
found in previous editions. Instead, there is a critter power called
"Magical Skills." The listing for Shapershifters' Powers does say
"Some display Magical Skills."

In the SR2 Companion, the Shapeshifter Character Creation Table on
p.36 does have a column for assigning chargen priorities to Magic.

The SR3 Companion's shapeshifter rules very clearly allow for the
possibility of Shapeshifter magic users of all flavors.

By the books it's quite clear, shapeshifters can be magic-users.

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-- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
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Message no. 2
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 01:34:39 -0400
On 5 Aug 99, at 0:26, runnerpaul@*****.com wrote:

> The Critters sourcebooklet that comes with the SR3 GM Screen doesn't
> use the "Active/Innate" clasification for Magic Capability that was
> found in previous editions. Instead, there is a critter power called
> "Magical Skills." The listing for Shapershifters' Powers does say
> "Some display Magical Skills."

There's my problem. I looked for Shapeshifters in SR3 and in
MiTS and didn't find a thing. I don't have the SR3GM or SR3
Companion, and didn't think to look in the SR2 companion.
Thanks for that info.


---
I do so hate to kill when I'm not getting paid,
but my new blade here seems to be enjoying it,
so, who's next?
-- Jerle Langthorn, The Raven,
Elven Assassin to a group of attackers.


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 3
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 18:06:52 -0400
Paul said:
> :Didn't we just have this discussion on the list (I don't
> :remember the concensus of the group though). Can a
> :shapeshifter be a magician?
>
> Yes, they can, for the past decade or so this game's been around. :)

Ok, no argument there, but for crying out loud a shapeshifting magic user is
as power gaming munchkin as it gets. I call bullshit on this one.

No one can justify a role-playing angle that justifies that level of power.

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 4
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:05:53 -0500
> Paul said:
> > :Didn't we just have this discussion on the list (I don't
> > :remember the concensus of the group though). Can a
> > :shapeshifter be a magician?
> >
> > Yes, they can, for the past decade or so this game's been around. :)
>
> Ok, no argument there, but for crying out loud a shapeshifting magic user
> is
> as power gaming munchkin as it gets. I call bullshit on this one.
>
> No one can justify a role-playing angle that justifies that level of
> power.
>
How 'bout this: You are the chosen of your totem. Not just chosen like all
the other Shamans are, but CHOSEN. You are the totem's avatar on Earth. When
the other totems get together and say, "Who's the coolest follower you
have?" your totem points at you. Why is this? Because you are a
shapeshifter. One who can change into the totem's animal. It was an honor to
be called and it is an honor to serve.

I still wouldn't allow anyone to play one though. Hell, I won't even let
anyone play a regular shapeshifter. There's just no need.
Message no. 5
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:25:08 +700
>Paul said:
>> :Didn't we just have this discussion on the list (I don't
>> :remember the concensus of the group though). Can a
>> :shapeshifter be a magician?
>>
>> Yes, they can, for the past decade or so this game's been around. :)
>
>Ok, no argument there, but for crying out loud a shapeshifting magic user is

>as power gaming munchkin as it gets. I call bullshit on this one.
>
>No one can justify a role-playing angle that justifies that level of power.


Depends on what you do with it. If you build a non combat mage it won't be that
bad.

Doesn't it take a whole bucketfull of points just be a shapeshifter? And then
another 30 to be a mage? That there's going to limit a few things.

I could see a shapeshifter mage modeled off of the Japanese Hengyoki (sp?) concept.
A mysterious magical fairy like individual. No real combat powers per say. Just
illusions and maybe a few mental items.
If a player purposfully works to not make a munchkin they can suceed. :)

Granted there are players I'd never let do it...
Message no. 6
From: Roger J. An ricker@********.com
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 18:31:31 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Mike & Linda Frankl wrote:

> Ok, no argument there, but for crying out loud a shapeshifting magic user is
> as power gaming munchkin as it gets. I call bullshit on this one.
>
> No one can justify a role-playing angle that justifies that level of power.

Hey it all depends on how your game goes. I personally think I have VERY
good PCs and the group of people I play with have had low level characters
and high level characters yet we've ALWAYS have been balanced. I GMed a
shapeshifter before the SR Companion Shapeshifter rules came out and it
was not unbalancing.

Remember there is ALWAYS a role-playing angle. Shapeshifters aren't all
that powerful. Remember if they choose to be magicians they will not be
very skilled and their attributes will be lower than that of a regular
magicians. A shapeshifter has to role-play more from animalistic point of
view. They are animals first who later on gained the ability to have a
human form.

If they choose to have a role in society, it is very hard for them to
match in (unless they're a fox shapeshifter) I mean they don't regenerate
in their human form, don't have inc reflexes (unless they're a physical
adept) and always tear up their clothes if they have to go into animal
form. They're hunted by the government. They're no where near as
malevolent as vampires or wendigos yet they aren't granted metahuman
rights!

It's hard to play a shapeshifter if your GM does the campaign correctly.
If the government find out there's a shapeshifter around, he or she is in
deep trouble. They are not at all TOO powerful. They are balanced
characters, who when played correctly, are very fun.

I am GMing a group with a shapeshifter wolf shaman. He is by no means
bullshit. It's a deep, meaningful character with a storyline and is very
balanced in the games.

There are definitely perks to being a shapeshifter magician but your
attributes and skills definitely suffer and most of my players are
experienced enough not to rely on edges or flaws so they really don't use
them. The edges and flaws come out naturally in their roleplaying.

Remember shapeshifter physical adepts can't use the abilities in animal
form and shapeshifter mages CAN cast spells in animal form that don't
require geasa or fetishes. It definitely adds a twist. : )

Lates,

Roger J. An
Message no. 7
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:46:10 -0400
>Remember there is ALWAYS a role-playing angle. Shapeshifters aren't
all
>that powerful. Remember if they choose to be magicians they will not
be
>very skilled and their attributes will be lower than that of a
regular
>magicians. A shapeshifter has to role-play more from animalistic
point of
>view. They are animals first who later on gained the ability to have
a
>human form.


Or people who grew up human and are wondering why they're freaks.
Hell, they run into their first shapeshifter, and regardless of what
side they're on, chances are they'll wanna save their live just to
have someone who can understand them, right?

>Roger J. An

-----
AK404

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that
cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just
comes in to work every day and has a job to do."
Message no. 8
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:01:39 +0200
> Paul said:
> > :Didn't we just have this discussion on the list (I don't
> > :remember the concensus of the group though). Can a
> > :shapeshifter be a magician?
> >
> > Yes, they can, for the past decade or so this game's been around. :)
>
> Ok, no argument there, but for crying out loud a shapeshifting magic user
is
> as power gaming munchkin as it gets. I call bullshit on this one.

I remember,....way back in the late 1980ies, there was this SuperNES game,
called shadowrun. There was a shapeshifting fox magicuser. FASA-approved and
all.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 9
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:05:53 +0200
> I could see a shapeshifter mage modeled off of the Japanese Hengyoki (sp?)
concept.
> A mysterious magical fairy like individual. No real combat powers per say.
Just
> illusions and maybe a few mental items.
> If a player purposfully works to not make a munchkin they can suceed. :)

That would be Hengeyokai.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 10
From: Tamino tamino@**********.wow.aust.com
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 16:22:59 +1000
At 06:06 5/08/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Paul said:
>> :Didn't we just have this discussion on the list (I don't
>> :remember the concensus of the group though). Can a
>> :shapeshifter be a magician?
>>
>> Yes, they can, for the past decade or so this game's been around. :)
>
>Ok, no argument there, but for crying out loud a shapeshifting magic user is
>as power gaming munchkin as it gets. I call bullshit on this one.
>
>No one can justify a role-playing angle that justifies that level of power.

I wouldn't consider it that munchy...given the BP/priority costs of a
magic user and a shapeshifter combo, the poor player is not going to
have many points left over for attributes. It would end up being
about as scary as a throw rug ;)

*remembers back to when one of the people in his group tried to make
up a elven shapeshifter mage and then whinged all night because he
had crappy attributes and skills...(some people just need to be
taught lessons ;)*



-Tamino ...All too easy

"ISTI MIRANT STELLA" - Bayeux Tapestry
tamino@**********.wow.aust.com
Message no. 11
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT)
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At 08:01 AM 8/6/99 +0200, Dennis Steinmeijer wrote:
:I remember,....way back in the late 1980ies, there was this SuperNES
: game, called shadowrun. There was a shapeshifting fox magicuser.
:FASA-approved and all.

Kitsune! Probably the least imaginative name they could have ever
come up with for a fox shapeshifter, but I always did have a soft
spot right here for her.

BTW, the SNES Shadowrun game was actually from the early 90's.
Shadowrun the pencil&paper RPG wasn't even released until 1989, and
the SNES and Sega Genesis games didn't come until a few years later.

Also, just because FASA put it's logo on the SNES game, it is not a
particularly good example of what should be possible in the
pencil&paper RPG. The main character in the game, the one directly
under user control, ends up with enough cyberware to kill you without
cybermancy, can sling spells without having to worry about drain (or
the fact that it should be impossible to cast spells with that much
cyber), and also decks what should be some very high security matrix
systems. The Genesis Shadowrun is a little better, because instead of
rolling the three character types into one ubercharacter, at the
beginning you're given the choice of playing a sammy, mage, or
decker.

Still, Kitsune has to be my favorite character from either of the two
games. She was cute.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

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Message no. 12
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Shapeshifer Magic-users? [was:A British Giant]
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:53:20 +0100
In article <NDBBJOAGGLDFDOBODKKBIEEBCAAA.mlfrankl@***.com>, Mike
& Linda Frankl <mlfrankl@***.com> writes
>Ok, no argument there, but for crying out loud a shapeshifting magic user is
>as power gaming munchkin as it gets. I call bullshit on this one.
>
>No one can justify a role-playing angle that justifies that level of power.

Depends how it's played. It can work and work well, creating an
interesting character whose powers are nicely balanced by their
vulnerabilities and weaknesses.

Or it can be a nightmare. I've seen both happen.


--
Paul J. Adam

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