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Message no. 1
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:52:19 -0500 (EST)
I feel bad asking this, but are there any rules prohibiting a
Shapeshifter from installing Bioware? I know that your average GM is
just going to say no, but my friend is creating a character for a high
powered game and wanted to know if it was in the rules somewhere
already...

Mark
Message no. 2
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:40:41 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, March 18, 2000 5:55 AM
Subject: Shapeshifter Question


>
> I feel bad asking this, but are there any rules prohibiting a
>Shapeshifter from installing Bioware? I know that your average GM is
>just going to say no, but my friend is creating a character for a high
>powered game and wanted to know if it was in the rules somewhere
>already...
>
>Mark
>


I feel bad saying this, but it is probably quite legal. If it were clonal,
then it shouldn't matter, the new organ would have all the powers of the
shape shifter. This opens a whole can of worms about inserting shapeshifter
parts into a mundane that I don't want to think about. The only problems
would come from the actual surgery, since the healing ability would
regenerate removed parts and close the surgery hole (whatever), so the
surgeon would need wired reflexes or something. The regeneration power would
also make the cloned cells grow a lot faster, I think Also it would be a
specialist skill that nobody has, because there are very few werebeasts. In
our group someone has a weretiger (yeah thats right, the strongest werebeast
of them all) with something like 20 in the claw skill, and I think he has
bioware too, but that is a secret kept between him and the guy who was GMing
at the time and allowed it. In his defence, I will say that he does play all
the negatives of a werebeast even more than he needs to, like eating the
imformant because his animal shape is dumb.
I personally think that it should be flat out denied to enhance werebeasts
other than magically, but it would be strictly legal in a medical sense at
least.
Message no. 3
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 03:05:47 +0200
Simon Fuller wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
> To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
> Date: Saturday, March 18, 2000 5:55 AM
> Subject: Shapeshifter Question
>
> >
> > I feel bad asking this, but are there any rules prohibiting a
> >Shapeshifter from installing Bioware? I know that your average GM is
> >just going to say no, but my friend is creating a character for a high
> >powered game and wanted to know if it was in the rules somewhere
> >already...
> >
> >Mark
> >
>
> I feel bad saying this, but it is probably quite legal. If it were clonal,
> then it shouldn't matter, the new organ would have all the powers of the
> shape shifter. This opens a whole can of worms about inserting shapeshifter
> parts into a mundane that I don't want to think about. The only problems
> would come from the actual surgery, since the healing ability would
> regenerate removed parts and close the surgery hole (whatever), so the
> surgeon would need wired reflexes or something. The regeneration power would
> also make the cloned cells grow a lot faster, I think Also it would be a
> specialist skill that nobody has, because there are very few werebeasts. In
> our group someone has a weretiger (yeah thats right, the strongest werebeast
> of them all) with something like 20 in the claw skill, and I think he has
> bioware too, but that is a secret kept between him and the guy who was GMing
> at the time and allowed it. In his defence, I will say that he does play all
> the negatives of a werebeast even more than he needs to, like eating the
> imformant because his animal shape is dumb.
> I personally think that it should be flat out denied to enhance werebeasts
> other than magically, but it would be strictly legal in a medical sense at
> least.


Sorry to say that guys but bioware is an integral part of one's body so
it does not get rejected nor regenerated out of the system.
Munchkiny as hell but what can I say...It's allowed and it can be
explained. Suffer the cosequences boys.

As an after thought, try using narcoject on your annoying weretigers
and throw in the occasional weapon focus force 3+ to make the blood
boil a little bit. Don't forget the silver and that bioware will not
regenerate its stress points if the damage is from silver (he he he)

The Wiz
Message no. 4
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:13:29 -0500
The Wiz said:
> Sorry to say that guys but bioware is an integral part of one's body so
> it does not get rejected nor regenerated out of the system.
> Munchkiny as hell but what can I say...It's allowed and it can be
> explained. Suffer the cosequences boys.

I disagree. To me the precedent of inserting bioware in magically active
entities (which werebeasts are, whether mages or not) is well defined by the
existing rules. To assume otherwise does open the door to munchkinism. IMHO
even clonal bioware is still synthetically generated and lacks that natural
quality that is ever so important to the mana sensitive, not to mention that
the piece (even if genetically compatible) wasn't part of the original
package. Grow a new kidney sure, but add a toxin sac that didn't exist
before and the magical part of the flesh knows the difference. Rules or not
(since I'm too lazy to research it at the moment) to me the concept is
obvious, not to mention any GM worth his salt would easily knock it down for
game balance.

Game balance and player fun (two of the most important game concepts).

;)

Smilin' Jack

Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 5
From: Damian Sharp zadoc@***.neu.edu
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:44:29 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Mike & Linda Frankl wrote:

> The Wiz said:
> > Sorry to say that guys but bioware is an integral part of one's body so
> > it does not get rejected nor regenerated out of the system.
> > Munchkiny as hell but what can I say...It's allowed and it can be
> > explained. Suffer the cosequences boys.
>
> I disagree. To me the precedent of inserting bioware in magically active
> entities (which werebeasts are, whether mages or not) is well defined by the
> existing rules. To assume otherwise does open the door to munchkinism. IMHO
> even clonal bioware is still synthetically generated and lacks that natural
> quality that is ever so important to the mana sensitive, not to mention that
> the piece (even if genetically compatible) wasn't part of the original
> package. Grow a new kidney sure, but add a toxin sac that didn't exist
> before and the magical part of the flesh knows the difference. Rules or not
> (since I'm too lazy to research it at the moment) to me the concept is
> obvious, not to mention any GM worth his salt would easily knock it down for
> game balance.
>
> Game balance and player fun (two of the most important game concepts).
>
> ;)
>
> Smilin' Jack

Sure the interaction is very well defined. Get bioware, have a Virtual
Magic Rating. Don't lose essence. Does that affect a non-mage
shapeshifter? I don't know. :) Anyone?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Student |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have kleptomania, but when it gets bad, I take something for it.
Message no. 6
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 02:22:28 -0500
> On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Mike & Linda Frankl wrote:
>
> > The Wiz said:
> > > Sorry to say that guys but bioware is an integral part of one's
body so
> > > it does not get rejected nor regenerated out of the system.
> > > Munchkiny as hell but what can I say...It's allowed and it can
be
> > > explained. Suffer the cosequences boys.
> >
> > I disagree. To me the precedent of inserting bioware in magically
active
> > entities (which werebeasts are, whether mages or not) is well
defined by the
> > existing rules. To assume otherwise does open the door to
munchkinism. IMHO
> > even clonal bioware is still synthetically generated and lacks
that natural
> > quality that is ever so important to the mana sensitive, not to
mention that
> > the piece (even if genetically compatible) wasn't part of the
original
> > package. Grow a new kidney sure, but add a toxin sac that didn't
exist
> > before and the magical part of the flesh knows the difference.
Rules or not
> > (since I'm too lazy to research it at the moment) to me the
concept is
> > obvious, not to mention any GM worth his salt would easily knock
it down for
> > game balance.
> >
> > Game balance and player fun (two of the most important game
concepts).
> >
> > ;)
> >
> > Smilin' Jack
>
> Sure the interaction is very well defined. Get bioware, have a
Virtual
> Magic Rating. Don't lose essence. Does that affect a non-mage
> shapeshifter? I don't know. :) Anyone?

I would say, if I had been asked, is yes. Considering that a
shapeshifter is a direct result of magic and mana stemming from the
cyclical action of the Awakening, it would not matter at all about
whether or not it was a mage or shaman or anything... The very nature
of the beast is mana. As the book states, "Altering the body's
make-up with bioware--even cultured bioware cloned from the Awakened
character--alters the body's ability to channel mana." Since the very
nature of the transformation and regeneration abilities are mana
based, bioware would impede them. I don't know how much clearer you
can get about this.

Implanting anything into a creature such as a werebeast is not only
incredibly difficult (imagine trying to keep your incision from
closing as you operated), but it's also very unbalancing IMO. Once
you give a creature extra powers above and beyond what it already
possesses, you are opening a door into a world that you will regret.
Trust me... I've been there.

Player 1: "I wanna play a dragon!"
GM: "No way!"
P1: "Why not? You let him play a were-tiger!"
GM: "So? That's different. Dragons are too powerful."
Player 2: Actually, I think I could take a dragon with my bare hands
since you let me be an adept."
GM: "I did? Shit..."
P1: "How about a vampire?"
Player 3: "But I wanted to be a vampire!"
P1, P2, P3: "WAAAAAHHH!"


On a completely different note... I'm not sure I understand the exact
definition of "munchkinism." I think I have the basics down, but
could someone give me a quick "once-over?" Is it the same thing as
saying, "Cheesy?" I hope not... I hate that word and the people who
hide behind it (only those who use it EVERY time they get shafted. I
am not trying to offend.)

Wasntka (Wolf)
Message no. 7
From: Damian Sharp zadoc@***.neu.edu
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:16:45 -0500 (EST)
On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Glenn Sprott wrote:

> > Sure the interaction is very well defined. Get bioware, have a
> Virtual
> > Magic Rating. Don't lose essence. Does that affect a non-mage
> > shapeshifter? I don't know. :) Anyone?
>
> I would say, if I had been asked, is yes. Considering that a
> shapeshifter is a direct result of magic and mana stemming from the
> cyclical action of the Awakening, it would not matter at all about
> whether or not it was a mage or shaman or anything... The very nature
> of the beast is mana. As the book states, "Altering the body's
> make-up with bioware--even cultured bioware cloned from the Awakened
> character--alters the body's ability to channel mana." Since the very
> nature of the transformation and regeneration abilities are mana
> based, bioware would impede them. I don't know how much clearer you
> can get about this.

Ture, it does say it effects the flow of mana. Then gives direct game
effects, a Virtual Magic Rating. Do the rules have any effects of Magic
Rating on a non-mage/adept shifter? I don't think so, but I could be wrong
there. Is it a good idea to let a shifter get bio-ware. Well, that depends
on the game. Is it easy to stop? Sure, shifters regen, so surgury can be
impossible.

However, the rules don't actually state any restrictions on a shifter
getting bioware. There's enough info in the books to make a strong case
for it (Nothing actually says no) and against it (Regeneration, Shifters
are dual natured). Mostly, it depends on your game.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Student |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have kleptomania, but when it gets bad, I take something for it.
Message no. 8
From: Even even@***********.fr
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 22:00:33 +0100
Adding another dimension to the shapeshifter/bioware question:

Given their 'bestial nature' - would most shapeshifters even concider implanting bioware
in themselves?

After all, the SR companion states that they cannot *willingly* accept any type of
cyberware. IMO, most shapeshifters would concider both bio- and cyberware artificially
constructed and alien to their bodies, and would thus simply not want it.
Message no. 9
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 03:06:23 +0200
Mike & Linda Frankl wrote:
IMHO> even clonal bioware is still synthetically generated and lacks
that natural
> quality that is ever so important to the mana sensitive, not to mention that
> the piece (even if genetically compatible) wasn't part of the original
> package. Grow a new kidney sure, but add a toxin sac that didn't exist
> before and the magical part of the flesh knows the difference. Rules or not
> (since I'm too lazy to research it at the moment) to me the concept is
> obvious, not to mention any GM worth his salt would easily knock it down for
> game balance.
>
I really feel bad speaking for something that I can easily be classified
as munchkinism but the logic for bioware on shapeshifters is there:
''It is cloned from the host's cellular matrix'' M&M p. 77.
Even if additional things are added to an organ, they are of the same
DNA sequence and therefore undetectable from the organism.

As for mana disruption, remember that awakened critters can receive
cyberware and still use their powers.

If you have to rule it out of your campaign do it on the level with
the player. IMO anyone who wants to insert bio in his shifter
is really out of character.

The Wiz
Message no. 10
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 03:06:29 +0200
Glenn Sprott wrote:
>
> I would say, if I had been asked, is yes. Considering that a
> shapeshifter is a direct result of magic and mana stemming from the
> cyclical action of the Awakening, it would not matter at all about
> whether or not it was a mage or shaman or anything... The very nature
> of the beast is mana. As the book states, "Altering the body's
> make-up with bioware--even cultured bioware cloned from the Awakened
> character--alters the body's ability to channel mana." Since the very
> nature of the transformation and regeneration abilities are mana
> based, bioware would impede them. I don't know how much clearer you
> can get about this.
>

Regeneration and transformation are as physical as they get. They are
primordial powers of the BODY. Magical yes, mana type no.
Regen is Type : P (Critters p.13). That's how clear we can get on that.


> Implanting anything into a creature such as a werebeast is not only
> incredibly difficult (imagine trying to keep your incision from
> closing as you operated), but it's also very unbalancing IMO.

Use a silver scalpel to make the stupid incision.Please!


Once
> you give a creature extra powers above and beyond what it already
> possesses, you are opening a door into a world that you will regret.
> Trust me... I've been there.
>
> Player 1: "I wanna play a dragon!"
> GM: "No way!"
> P1: "Why not? You let him play a were-tiger!"
> GM: "So? That's different. Dragons are too powerful."
> Player 2: Actually, I think I could take a dragon with my bare hands
> since you let me be an adept."
> GM: "I did? Shit..."
> P1: "How about a vampire?"
> Player 3: "But I wanted to be a vampire!"
> P1, P2, P3: "WAAAAAHHH!"
>






> On a completely different note... I'm not sure I understand the exact
> definition of "munchkinism." I think I have the basics down, but
> could someone give me a quick "once-over?" Is it the same thing as
> saying, "Cheesy?" I hope not... I hate that word and the people who
> hide behind it (only those who use it EVERY time they get shafted. I
> am not trying to offend.)
>
Munckin...Picture ME without any ethics!!!

Really, munchkin is a player who plays for the sake of game power and
forsakes the spirit of the game completely.
Think mage/decker/rigger.
Think High pain tolerance 9/weretiger magician with quickened
+8 to all atributes and 14 great form elementals force 10.
Think of making ally spirits programming your computer utilities.
The difference with power gaming is the completely WRONG use of these
things. Instead of hellping the feeling of the game and plot, the
munchkin uses them to unbalance things in hiw ultimate benefit
(mind controlling the Johnson from the first meet to get information
and sustaining the spell for the rest of the story, robing banks and
killing witnesses, disrespecting higher ups and killing witnesses,
Wreccking hospitals, disintegrating passenger planes, mugging innocents
and killing witnesses, you name it).


The Wiz:

''Hello my name is Manolis and I haven't munchkinized for 6 years.''

Crowd in Munchkins Anonymous:

''Hello Manolis''

PS: Good thing about being an ex munchkin is that you can very easily
cope with munchkins in your group and coerce them into real role palying
instead of just being intimidated by them.
Message no. 11
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:05:54 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Manolis Skoulikas <greatworm@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Question


>
>> Implanting anything into a creature such as a werebeast is not only
>> incredibly difficult (imagine trying to keep your incision from
>> closing as you operated), but it's also very unbalancing IMO.
>
>Use a silver scalpel to make the stupid incision.Please!
>
>
Yeah, right, and have the edges of the incision go instantly necrotic. Not
so much of a problem because they will eventually regenerate, but there is
no way you could attach a new organ/whatever to necrotic cells and expect it
to take. Thats what would happen in my game to someone getting operated on
with a scalpel made of something they have a severe allergy to.

And where does the extra mass go when they shapeshift, if it isn't magical?



>Munckin...Picture ME without any ethics!!!
>
>Really, munchkin is a player who plays for the sake of game power and
>forsakes the spirit of the game completely.
>Think mage/decker/rigger.
>Think High pain tolerance 9/weretiger magician with quickened
>+8 to all atributes and 14 great form elementals force 10.
>Think of making ally spirits programming your computer utilities.
>The difference with power gaming is the completely WRONG use of these
>things. Instead of hellping the feeling of the game and plot, the
>munchkin uses them to unbalance things in hiw ultimate benefit
>(mind controlling the Johnson from the first meet to get information
>and sustaining the spell for the rest of the story, robing banks and
>killing witnesses, disrespecting higher ups and killing witnesses,
>Wreccking hospitals, disintegrating passenger planes, mugging innocents
>and killing witnesses, you name it).
>
>
>The Wiz:


Well, I've never disintegrated a passenger plane...
This is what I think of as munchkin too. Manipulating the rules to make an
incredibly inbalanced character that sucks all the challenge and interest
out of a game, turning it into a maths problem where the highest end number
wins. It's worst when the munchkin believes he is not a munchkin. "Sure I go
at 6000+95d6 initiative, I have body 97, 1000/1000 hardened armour and an
infinite combat pool, sure I use every beneficial optional rule there is and
none of the detrimental ones, but I mean, one good hit from God and I'm
going to feel it, so thats fair."
Message no. 12
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:23:21 -0800
On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:05:54 +1000 "Simon Fuller" <sfuller@******.com.au>
writes:
<SNIP>
> And where does the extra mass go when they shapeshift, if it isn't
> magical?
<SNIP>

Hmmm ... that gives me an interesting idea. Regeneration can heal ANY
wound completely and pretty much instantly, right? What if shape shifting
is a matter of regeneration working in conjuction with the lymph(?)
system? cells are destroyed and rebuilt as needed. This would mean that
shapeshifters would need HIGH energy intakes and/or that shapeshifting is
extremely taxing.

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

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Message no. 13
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:31:57 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Question


>On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:05:54 +1000 "Simon Fuller"
<sfuller@******.com.au>
>writes:
><SNIP>
>> And where does the extra mass go when they shapeshift, if it isn't
>> magical?
><SNIP>
>
>Hmmm ... that gives me an interesting idea. Regeneration can heal ANY
>wound completely and pretty much instantly, right? What if shape shifting
>is a matter of regeneration working in conjuction with the lymph(?)
>system? cells are destroyed and rebuilt as needed. This would mean that
>shapeshifters would need HIGH energy intakes and/or that shapeshifting is
>extremely taxing.
>
>--
>D. Ghost
>A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
>--Paul Erdos
>
Hmmm. It would also mean that a shapeshifter can die of cancer in a matter
of days. Watch that sunburn, mister weretiger!

I thought years ago of a good reason werewolves regenerate. They have two
templates, the human one and the wolf one. The template does not include
bullet wounds and whatnot, so the mutable flesh reshapes quickly to match
the unwounded template, in effect 'healing' the wound. That fits the
Shadowrun werewolves just as well as the comic book and horror movie
werewolves that spawned the theory. Moreso, because their template is in the
astral for all to see. All to see that have ghostsight, that is.
Message no. 14
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 04:47:22 +0200
Simon Fuller wrote:
> >
> Yeah, right, and have the edges of the incision go instantly necrotic. Not
> so much of a problem because they will eventually regenerate, but there is
> no way you could attach a new organ/whatever to necrotic cells and expect it
> to take. Thats what would happen in my game to someone getting operated on
> with a scalpel made of something they have a severe allergy to.
>
> And where does the extra mass go when they shapeshift, if it isn't magical?
>
I never said it was n't magical, just the opposite.
I said it was not mana based, but physical.

And do those cells actually get necrotic?

Hoo! Thank god I don't have any allergies. Seems intense!
I really feel bad for those of you who do.

But I think that normal recovery is the case (as oppossed to
regeneration )
in these cases, so the necrotic cells will eventually be discarded and
the
implant will be accepted.

The Wiz
Message no. 15
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 13:29:22 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Manolis Skoulikas <greatworm@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Question


>Simon Fuller wrote:
>> >
>> Yeah, right, and have the edges of the incision go instantly necrotic.
Not
>> so much of a problem because they will eventually regenerate, but there
is
>> no way you could attach a new organ/whatever to necrotic cells and expect
it
>> to take. Thats what would happen in my game to someone getting operated
on
>> with a scalpel made of something they have a severe allergy to.
>>
>> And where does the extra mass go when they shapeshift, if it isn't
magical?
>>
>I never said it was n't magical, just the opposite.
>I said it was not mana based, but physical.
>
>And do those cells actually get necrotic?
>
>Hoo! Thank god I don't have any allergies. Seems intense!
>I really feel bad for those of you who do.

Well I'm assuming that when they say "Allergy" they don't mean excessive
hystamine production because of oversensitivity like, say, pollen allergy,
but the more general contact with this substance causes cellular damage.
After all, you can't really be allergic to a metal in that way. People
become allergic to the nickel in jewellry, but that takes days of constant
contact, or at least hours, and involves the nickel being absorbed by the
skin. One explanation for the allergy to silver could be that the silver
disrupts the magical chemistry that allows the shape shifting, and so the
cells die off because they forget the shape the template is telling them to
take. This theory is taking the shapeshifting template theory as given and
can be argued on many points, but does explain things rather neatly, I
think. The tempate thing also is a good excuse for disallowing bioware if
you are that way inclined.
>
>But I think that normal recovery is the case (as oppossed to
>regeneration )
>in these cases, so the necrotic cells will eventually be discarded and
>the
>implant will be accepted.
>
>The Wiz
>
The problem here being that before the cells can reform and grow onto the
new organ, it will most likely have died due to lack of nutrient flow. It
wouldn't take long, longer than healing cells destroyed by extremely
invasive surgery with a basically poisonous implement. Better just to have a
surgeon with a move-by-wire system implanted :)

Now, cloning is possible now, not to mention in the 60's. You think how fast
you could grow entire weretigers, whos cells grow so quickly. You could have
an army in a few years, all exact clones of the original, so definite
weretigers. Then you just get a chair and a whip to control them, and take
over the world! Bwahahahahahaha!!!!

-ahem- I'm back now.
Message no. 16
From: Archimage4@***.com Archimage4@***.com
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 22:38:06 EST
In a message dated 3/18/00 10:17:29 PM, sfuller@******.com.au writes:

>Now, cloning is possible now, not to mention in the 60's. You think how fast
>you could grow entire weretigers, whos cells grow so quickly. You could have
>an army in a few years, all exact clones of the original, so definite
>weretigers. Then you just get a chair and a whip to control them, and take
>over the world! Bwahahahahahaha!!!!

The talk of clone armies are greatly exaggerated. We've got a lot of
problems with these things NOW, and considering all that the Earth's been
through in Shadowrun, I doubt the technology has advanced to the point where
you have near 100% successful cloning rate of a magical beast. Especially
since magic is so poorly understood.

Won't keep me from using it in a run, though! (INSERT="Evil_GM_Laugh")

Of course, this is all MHO.

-- The Archimage
Message no. 17
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:05:18 -0500
>> I would say, if I had been asked, is yes. Considering that a
>> shapeshifter is a direct result of magic and mana stemming from the
>> cyclical action of the Awakening, it would not matter at all about
>> whether or not it was a mage or shaman or anything... The very
nature
>> of the beast is mana. As the book states, "Altering the body's
>> make-up with bioware--even cultured bioware cloned from the
Awakened
>> character--alters the body's ability to channel mana." Since the
very
>> nature of the transformation and regeneration abilities are mana
>> based, bioware would impede them. I don't know how much clearer
you
>> can get about this.
>>

>Regeneration and transformation are as physical as they get. They are
>primordial powers of the BODY. Magical yes, mana type no.
>Regen is Type : P (Critters p.13). That's how clear we can get on
that.

I'm not sure I understand, "primordial powers of the BODY." Are you
implying that something can be magical and not mana based? Wait a
minute... I think I understand. You are referring to mana and
physical based powers... So, in your opinion, something that is
physical based does not fall under the "... alters the body's ability
to channel mana," category. I think that maybe you are taking that
whole thing a little too literally. Many times in the Shadowrun
rules, they refer to any magical power, spell, ability, etc. as
"mana." I don't think whether or not it's phyiscal or mana has any
real relevance to the argument. The fact is, without magic,
shapeshifters would not exist. Whether or not their power is physical
or mana-based doesn't really come into it, IMO. To perform ANY kind
of magic, whether it be inherent or otherwise, requires the aura of
the individual to channel mana energy from the astral to the physical
(if need be). Again, this is obvious, IMHO.

>> Implanting anything into a creature such as a werebeast is not only
>> incredibly difficult (imagine trying to keep your incision from
>> closing as you operated), but it's also very unbalancing IMO.

>Use a silver scalpel to make the stupid incision.Please!

A silver scalpel? To implant bioware? Is that all that is required
for drastic invasive surgery and the implantation of a bioware device?
Are we going to create silver nanites to attach each nerve ending to
the new bioware device so that it won't heal too quickly?

I appologize for my "tone," but I thought I made a valid point. The
main focus of that point was munchkinism (now that I understand it's
meaning). The spirit of this whole argument is whether or not it
SHOULD be allowed into the game. We could all go round and round
about whether or not it would work (in a fantasy realm), but until an
actual surgeon pops onto this BBS with experience in genetics,
cloning, transplant surgery, and shapeshifters, we all sound like
idoits. Once again, this is all my opinion.


Wasntka (Wolf)

Ps. I do have one question for anyone who wishes to help a fellow
gamer... I'm having trouble getting my responses and my email to
behave in an "orderly fashion." Is there something that I am missing
or are all of my posts going to appear this way? I'm mainly referring
to responses... I think others out there are having the same problem,
but don't want to ask for fear of seeming like a fool. Me? I don't
really have that problem... I respect all of you as gamers and human
beings, and I know that will not treat me any differently for asking a
simple question (even if it is academic).

Thanks!
Message no. 18
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:15:16 -0500
Sorry... I somehow managed to figure out the email and posting
problem that I had. Nevermind about the question. I figured it out
all by my lonesome! I'm a big kid now!!!

Also, to clarify my point in my last post, when I said that it doesn't
matter whether or not it is physical or mana isn't really the point...
I meant that physical or mana-based powers. I think any form of magic
requires "mana energy," not necessarily mana-based power. Whether
physical or mana, it all requires mana energy, and that is what I
think the creators of the game had in mind.

Wasntka (Wolf)
Message no. 19
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:14:45 -0500
Wiz wrote:
> I really feel bad speaking for something that I can easily be classified
> as munchkinism but the logic for bioware on shapeshifters is there:
> ''It is cloned from the host's cellular matrix'' M&M p. 77.
> Even if additional things are added to an organ, they are of the same
> DNA sequence and therefore undetectable from the organism.

In mundane entities, yes, referring mostly to the rejection process
(antibodies and all that). I am drawing a parallel between the fact that
werebeasts and magic users are tightly bound to mana. If bioware effects
magic users then IMHO I think that it should effect were-creatures
similarly.

> As for mana disruption, remember that awakened critters can receive
> cyberware and still use their powers.

Assuming they don't go insane from it. I would reduce the effects of some
powers based on the mana resistance caused by having implants installed. To
me the basic rule is simple. Install cyberware or bioware and it impedes
magic, plain and simple. Anything else is just a bid for more power or a
rules loophole that someone at FASA has just missed.

> If you have to rule it out of your campaign do it on the level with
> the player. IMO anyone who wants to insert bio in his shifter
> is really out of character.

While I agree with you whole-heartedly on the "out of character" angle some
players take the posture that the GM is just saying no. Back a refusal up
with some game logic or at least a good argument then you can usually get
more response. Remember even some good players that aren't munchkins still
like finding a good rules loophole and giving them something to base their
understanding of your decision makes it easier to accept.

We can debate this for some time but our points of reference are different.
You are referencing a text and rules (which are important), but my angle
comes from the basic concepts of GM'ing formed from a lot of doing and
playing through various rules systems (even in SR). To keep your players
happy, the game in balance, and keep a group of people coming back week you
must perceive that there is a set of basic concepts that go on beneath the
rules that most game designers work from.

The makers of SR didn't just make it harder for magic users to use cyberware
or bioware because it worked out according to the rules logic. They did it
to prevent a powerhouse class of characters (I mean cyberware and fireballs,
who wouldn't sign up). The rules are there because if they just said that it
was "out of character" many players would disagree and build these monsters,
creating a lot of game havoc and driving off a lot of GM's.

:)

Smilin' Jack

Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 20
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:14:47 -0500
Wiz said:
> And do those cells actually get necrotic?
>
> Hoo! Thank god I don't have any allergies. Seems intense!
> I really feel bad for those of you who do.

Your missing the levels L M S D. Most people have L level allergies (to use
SR terms). If a person with an S level to bees gets stung they really suffer
(which could draw a parallel to Were's having necroticized tissue).

:)

Smilin' Jack

Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 21
From: Scott Harrison Scott_Harrison@*****.com
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 19:06:19 -0500
In a message from Mike & Linda Frankl <mlfrankl@***.com>
dated Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:14:45 -0500, my mailer made me see:

-> Wiz wrote:
-> > I really feel bad speaking for something that I can easily be classified
-> > as munchkinism but the logic for bioware on shapeshifters is there:
-> > ''It is cloned from the host's cellular matrix'' M&M p. 77.
-> > Even if additional things are added to an organ, they are of the same
-> > DNA sequence and therefore undetectable from the organism.
->
-> In mundane entities, yes, referring mostly to the rejection process
-> (antibodies and all that). I am drawing a parallel between the fact that
-> werebeasts and magic users are tightly bound to mana. If bioware effects
-> magic users then IMHO I think that it should effect were-creatures
-> similarly.

I am assuming SR3 here...

Problem is that one can be a "non-magically active" werebeast. In this case one
does not possess the Magic attribute. Therefore, one does not realize a penalty for
acquiring cyberware or bioware in the same manner that a character with a Magic attribute
does.

Logically one might assume that if one could acquire cyberware or bioware then the
"magical" abilities of the shapeshifter should be reduced (like a mages
potential being reduced). However, the shapeshifter only really has dual-nature,
regeneration, and form changing. One could make up house rules to say things like:
"you no longer regenerate instantly all your damage, but only body number of
boxes," "you now have to roll to see if you regenerate," your form change
takes 1d6 actions to take effect," etc. Of course one could use the penalties for
being a shapeshifter in addition or instead and say things like: "you are now more
allergic to silver," "you have acquired an allergy to gold," "your
astral aura is now a beacon summoning all types of nasty things to you," etc.
However, this is all arbitrary and really doesn't feel right.

However, I believe that it would be next to impossible to get the bioware introduced into
the shapeshifter. The shapeshifter heals the body totally every round. This makes
surgery difficult. The shapeshifter's body would most likely reject anything artificial
introduced into it. Therefore, the only chance would be to use tailored bioware.
However, the shapeshifter's body would not accept newly created organs even if they were
from the same DNA. Remember this concept of soul? Imagine that the cells not only
possess DNA but also some sort of magical property (not Magic attribute). It may be
impossible for the genetic engineers to reproduce the magical property of cells.
Therefore, no cloning shapeshifters and no regrowing organs. This seems more realistic
with keeping shapeshifters as well defined as they are.

So it boils down to there are no rules that state no bioware. However, following the
logic of many other rules one can find it difficult to see it possible. Of course it is
up to the game master.

By the way, I do play a weretiger...and sometimes eating people is what happens. :-) Oh
the joys of O+...

--
Scott Harrison
Message no. 22
From: Chipeloi chipeloi@***.nl
Subject: Shapeshifter Question
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:21:40 +0200
In the asylum, Scott Harrison whispered in the corridors:



> Problem is that one can be a "non-magically active" werebeast. In
> this case one does not possess the Magic attribute. Therefore, one
> does not realize a penalty for acquiring cyberware or bioware in the
> same manner that a character with a Magic attribute does.
>
how about this:
in the game i play with gurth as GM
i'm playing an tiger shapeshifter
but he found ( as do i ) the the regenaration rules are way to power
full
so i throw my essence in dice agains an target numer that is the
same as the amount of damage boxes in damage i have
this works .....wel it works
i'm not all powerful as in: O 3 ppl are shooting at me no problem

but to the point if the player wants cyberwear and/or bioware
dubble the essence loss or even trippel it
and lets not even start with the oparating cost
or something like: heee the shapeshifter is out lets call misster
jhonson and ask him if he can sell fresh tiger skin =)

(when was playing my tiger i walked in an room and one of the
caraters walked up to me and mesured me went back to the table
and looked in an book skinning an animal in 10 easy lessons)

The more cyberwear the less esence and less chance to regenarate


> Logically one might assume that if one could acquire cyberware or
> bioware then the "magical" abilities of the shapeshifter should be
> reduced (like a mages potential being reduced).

>
> However, I believe that it would be next to impossible to get the
> bioware introduced into the shapeshifter. The shapeshifter heals the
> body totally every round. This makes surgery difficult.
>
in the books i don't remember where there is an comment :
some goverments have found an way to in plant cyberwear into an
shapeshifter there are placed into places that when he shapeshifts
are extreemly damaging
i think it go's something like that


> By the way, I do play a weretiger...and sometimes eating people is
> what happens. :-) Oh the joys of O+...

wel eating meta-humans......
ya my caracter has don it a few times like ppl who seen me
shapeshift and some other "problems"
its part of the caracter why eat "normal" food
when you got milions of happy meals on legs walking around?

--
>If you thought Chipeloi was crazy just wait till you meet me !

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