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Message no. 1
From: Thanatos <sthanatos@*********.COM>
Subject: Shapeshifter Questions
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:28:55 -0500
I dont remember whether I wasnt present when this question was asked, or if
I just ignored the thread :) but I really need to know what's up with this,
so I've got a few questions to ask:

Ok, Shapeshifters get bonus dice for initiative, like Wolf gets a 1d6 init
bonus and Tiger getsa 2 d6 init bonus...can a shapeshifter get an increased
reflexes spell quickened on them, at 3d6 and for instance, that would make
a wolf shaman have 5d6 init. A Tger would have 6d6 init! ... that's not
suppose to be possible.

Another question, it isn't listed that shapeshifters have any enhanced
senses while in animal form, but this has to be an oversight right? They
have to have improved hearing and sight or whatever their animal form
dictates, right?

A flailing GM who has a very excited
Shapeshifter Player right now...

SThanatos
Message no. 2
From: John Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Questions
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 19:24:18 -0500
Thanatos wrote:
>
> I dont remember whether I wasnt present when this question was asked, or if
> I just ignored the thread :) but I really need to know what's up with this,
> so I've got a few questions to ask:

Fire away!

> Ok, Shapeshifters get bonus dice for initiative, like Wolf gets a 1d6 init
> bonus and Tiger getsa 2 d6 init bonus...can a shapeshifter get an increased
> reflexes spell quickened on them, at 3d6 and for instance, that would make
> a wolf shaman have 5d6 init. A Tger would have 6d6 init! ... that's not
> suppose to be possible.

By most rules, it's not possible. The SR3 versions of Increase Reflexes
(the physad power and the spell) explicitly state that they don't stack
with other forms of reflex-enhancement, whether magical or cyber. I
would say that it's a safe bet that a shaper's increased initiative
bonus is likely magical in origin (remember that a dual-natured critter
[like a shapeshifter] derives it's spiffy abilities [regneration, flame
aura, shapeshifting, et al] from the interaction between astral space
and their auras, making those abilities magical in nature). I seem to
also recall a couple of statements from FASA folks that, in general,
reflex enhancements don't stack (unless explicitly stated otherwise,
anyway) -- use the one with the highest overall rating when something
like that comes up -- and that there's a maximum limit of +4D6
Initiative. Be aware that those are *not* canon statements (to my
knowledge). They *may* be backed up in SR3, but somebody with a better
knowledge of the new rules set is going to have to verify that.

> Another question, it isn't listed that shapeshifters have any enhanced
> senses while in animal form, but this has to be an oversight right? They
> have to have improved hearing and sight or whatever their animal form
> dictates, right?

It's at this point that I'd like to point out that standard (aka
mundane, non-paranormal) critters under SR2 don't have such powers at
all. Enhanced vision, hearing, smell, etc are relegated to paranormal
status. If you decide to hand out such abilities, think very carefully
about it beforehand - shapers can very easily be very powerful
characters. They're difficult to accurately role-play and can cause some
game-balance issues if not handled carefully.

> A flailing GM who has a very excited
> Shapeshifter Player right now...

Good luck:)

--
John Pederson, otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
"Oooooh! Big talk from Mr. Got-All-My-Limbs! 'Look at me! I've got arms
and legs! JERK!" --Sluggy Freelance
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864/index.html ICQ UIN: 3190186
----------------------
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" No. 2 -- with a
bullet!
Sergeant-at-Arms and Greatest Swordsman of the Frinch Army
Message no. 3
From: Andrew Gwilliam <andrew@********.NET.UK>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Questions
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 01:12:16 +0000
> Ok, Shapeshifters get bonus dice for initiative, like Wolf gets a 1d6 init
> bonus and Tiger getsa 2 d6 init bonus...can a shapeshifter get an increased
> reflexes spell quickened on them, at 3d6 and for instance, that would make
> a wolf shaman have 5d6 init. A Tger would have 6d6 init! ... that's not
> suppose to be possible.

There are no animals in the 3rd Edition, so using rules from 2nd, tigers naturally have
3d6 initiative dice so shapeshifter physads could have 6d6 dice.


KO
Message no. 4
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Questions
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:20:38 -0500
John Pederson wrote:

> It's at this point that I'd like to point out that standard (aka
> mundane, non-paranormal) critters under SR2 don't have such powers at
> all. Enhanced vision, hearing, smell, etc are relegated to paranormal
> status.

While true that standard critters aren't listed as possessing enhanced
senses, it is also true that cats, dogs and other normal animals do
have abilities more capable than the human equivalent. I would
suggest to Thanatos that while in animal form (and only in animal
form) the proper abilities are available, this would also have a
relatively game balancing effect that a shifter in human form loses
what it feels are it's normal senses. Sort of like going from 20/20
vision to 80% blind. I would also suggest that any spell that is used
to enhance a sense for the human form would not carry over to the
animal form.


> If you decide to hand out such abilities, think very carefully
> about it beforehand - shapers can very easily be very powerful
> characters. They're difficult to accurately role-play and can cause some
> game-balance issues if not handled carefully.

I agree with this whole-heartedly, shapeshifters are, in my
experience, hard enough to run as a GM. It is too easy to think of
them in wholly human terms. This tends to lead to them getting cyber
and bioware, living in the city (possible but not as likely), and
etc. When this happens, they quit being animals and become
Uber-runners (possibly even munchkins). And yes shapeshifters are
considered animals in SR2, we will have to wait till the critters
section comes with the SR3 GM Screen to see if that status has been
updated.

--
Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
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W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 5
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Questions
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 19:44:04 -0600
----------
> From: Thanatos <sthanatos@*********.COM>
>
> Ok, Shapeshifters get bonus dice for initiative, like Wolf gets a 1d6
init
> bonus and Tiger getsa 2 d6 init bonus...can a shapeshifter get an
increased
> reflexes spell quickened on them, at 3d6 and for instance, that would
make
> a wolf shaman have 5d6 init. A Tger would have 6d6 init! ... that's not
> suppose to be possible.

Theoretically, yes, they can do that. However, you might want to consider
those bonuses magical and not let them stack them...

> Another question, it isn't listed that shapeshifters have any enhanced
> senses while in animal form, but this has to be an oversight right?
They
> have to have improved hearing and sight or whatever their animal form
> dictates, right?

My option is to take a look at the animal form. Subtract the first number
from the second in the Intelligence column. What remains is how many
additional dice you get to roll in animal form for detection with their
main senses.

--
Rev. Mark Hall
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
Now that I think about it, Rush Limbaugh is quite a bit like the sun.
He's a large ball of hot gas that inevitably draws the densest things
towards him.
Message no. 6
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Questions
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:43:17 -0600
Nexx wrote:
>
> ----------
> > From: Thanatos <sthanatos@*********.COM>
> >
> > Ok, Shapeshifters get bonus dice for initiative, like Wolf gets a 1d6
> init
> > bonus and Tiger getsa 2 d6 init bonus...can a shapeshifter get an
> increased
> > reflexes spell quickened on them, at 3d6 and for instance, that would
> make
> > a wolf shaman have 5d6 init. A Tger would have 6d6 init! ... that's not
> > suppose to be possible.
>
> Theoretically, yes, they can do that. However, you might want to consider
> those bonuses magical and not let them stack them...


Now you see why I have a hard time with Shapeshifters :-) Unfortunately,
yes, Physad powers and Increased Reflex spell locks do add to the
Shapeshifter's initiative in animal form.

However, the rules do explicitly state, and the one balancing thing
about shapeshifters, is the fact they can never, ever, have cyberware or
bioware, which takes some of the sting off of their ungodly speed and
still gives the advantage to the guy with a gun at range :-) Also, I
would rule against animal-form shifters from casting spells. (That might
be in the rules too, but I do not recall.)

And yes, I know there are some campaigns out there which allow cybered
and biowared shapeshifters. I avoid those like the plague.

--David
Message no. 7
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Questions
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:56:01 -0600
----------
> From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
>
> And yes, I know there are some campaigns out there which allow cybered
> and biowared shapeshifters. I avoid those like the plague.
>
> --David

Biowared shifters (who are still able to shift) could happen _IF_ (really
big if), they have a) mapped the shaper genome b) they clone the bioware
directly from the shaper c) they are able to adapt human designs to
shapers. All in all, I see it as easily an investment of several million
per .25 of body index (at least for the first several years...), simply
because they have to work with some really weird shit.

This assumes that a shaper character (not a player) would even want
bioware. I know my current shaper character wouldn't have anything to do
with it, simply because its not how Wolf wants him to be.

--
Rev. Mark Hall
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
Now that I think about it, Rush Limbaugh is quite a bit like the sun.
He's a large ball of hot gas that inevitably draws the densest things
towards him.
Message no. 8
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Questions
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 02:15:43 EST
In a message dated 11/16/1998 8:13:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
andrew@********.NET.UK writes:

> > Ok, Shapeshifters get bonus dice for initiative, like Wolf gets a 1d6 init
> > bonus and Tiger getsa 2 d6 init bonus...can a shapeshifter get an
> increased
> > reflexes spell quickened on them, at 3d6 and for instance, that would
make
> > a wolf shaman have 5d6 init. A Tger would have 6d6 init! ... that's not
> > suppose to be possible.
>
> There are no animals in the 3rd Edition, so using rules from 2nd, tigers
> naturally have
> 3d6 initiative dice so shapeshifter physads could have 6d6 dice.

I just thought I would toss this in here. The bonus dice to initiative given
for the animals stats in the SR2 are the bonus number of total dice that an
animal gets. Such as that if you see two stars next to the reaction, then the
critter in question gets three dice for initiative. They do NOT cumulate in
the case of the shapers.

Just FYI

-K
Message no. 9
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Questions
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:36:17 -0600
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 19:24:18 -0500 John Pederson
<pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU> writes:
>Thanatos wrote:
<SNIP>
>> Another question, it isn't listed that shapeshifters have any enhanced
>> senses while in animal form, but this has to be an oversight right?
They
>> have to have improved hearing and sight or whatever their animal form
>> dictates, right?

>It's at this point that I'd like to point out that standard (aka
>mundane, non-paranormal) critters under SR2 don't have such powers at
>all.

Not quite true... Look at their Intelligence ratings. The difference
bewteen the two numbers is the animal's "Enhanced Senses".

>Enhanced vision, hearing, smell, etc are relegated to paranormal
>status. If you decide to hand out such abilities, think very carefully
>about it beforehand - shapers can very easily be very powerful
>characters. They're difficult to accurately role-play and can cause some
>game-balance issues if not handled carefully.
<SNIP>

You could just give give what you think are appropriate bonuses to
perception. Hmmmm ... Another idea is to make to make all Shapeshifters
Adepts (Physical Adepts) and make them purchase a few abilities according
to their animal (Wolf might be Improved Senses [Hearing, Smell], Enhanced
Perception; Bear might be Improved Senses [Smell], Enhanced Perception,
Mystic Armor, and Suspended State; Cat might be Catfall [Awakenings],
Improved senses [Smell, Hearing], Enhanced Perception, Improved Reflexes;
etc...)

If you do take that route, I wouldn't reccomend allowing the full 8
Essence to become 8 Magic. Maybe Half that. Then, allow the player to
spend the remaining points. Also, you might need to up the cost of
creating Shapeshifters if you do this.

Just a thought.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 10
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Questions
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:02:07 -0600
D. Ghost wrote:

> If you do take that route, I wouldn't reccomend allowing the full 8
> Essence to become 8 Magic. Maybe Half that. Then, allow the player to
> spend the remaining points. Also, you might need to up the cost of
> creating Shapeshifters if you do this.

8? Did you say 8? Ooooo I would LOVE 8!!!!

> D. Ghost
> (aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
> "Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
> re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.
>

Grimlakin
Message no. 11
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter Questions
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:58:33 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Thanatos
> Sent: Tuesday, 17 November 1998 9:29
>
>
> Ok, Shapeshifters get bonus dice for initiative, like Wolf
> gets a 1d6 init
> bonus and Tiger getsa 2 d6 init bonus...can a shapeshifter
> get an increased
> reflexes spell quickened on them, at 3d6 and for instance,
> that would make
> a wolf shaman have 5d6 init. A Tger would have 6d6 init!
> ... that's not
> suppose to be possible.

An idea I suggested to Steve Kenson for 3rd Ed (which didn't make it
in :( ) was simply altering all of the spells and wired reflexes
descriptions to a fixed number of dice rather than an increase to your
existing amount. So instead of Increase Reflexes +3d6 you would have
a spell called Improved Reflexes - 4d6. There is no assumption made
about adding the bonuses together, you use the 4d6 the spell gives
you, or you use your original amount. The same would also count for
wired and the like.

I know that doesn't directly answer your question, but it is a house
rule that I use that completely avoids all of these 'can I stack this
increase with this increase?' questions.

NightRain.

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