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Message no. 1
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:55:17 EDT
Do shapeshifters need to learn an unarmed combat skill, or do they just use
the Critter style of unarmed combat (Reaction as skill)? After all, their
animal form techniques would seem to be hardwired (do you know any martial art
form that is designed for tigers? Not based on, but designed for?), but their
human form techniques would be less likely to be so (after all, if you think
in terms of crushing your opponents neck with a bite, you're going to be very
confused when you suddenly have this teeny mouth). If a shifter phys-ad takes
unarmed combat bonus, does it affect both forms?

Nexx
Message no. 2
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:11:00 -0500
>
> Do shapeshifters need to learn an unarmed combat skill, or do they just use
> the Critter style of unarmed combat (Reaction as skill)? After all, their
> animal form techniques would seem to be hardwired (do you know any martial art
> form that is designed for tigers? Not based on, but designed for?), but their
> human form techniques would be less likely to be so (after all, if you think
> in terms of crushing your opponents neck with a bite, you're going to be very
> confused when you suddenly have this teeny mouth). If a shifter phys-ad takes
> unarmed combat bonus, does it affect both forms?
>
Ouch...I was waiting for that. In the past I've let them have their
usuall skill when human, and use their reaction when their in animal form.
The rest I leave up to roleplaying. Heh...and as for the last. I don't
care what SR Comp says. I have yet to allow a Shifter PA. The way I figure
it, their powers are already grounded to their bodies, sorta like the
vampire debate we had awhile back. Shifter mages are another touchy subject.
I've allowed it in the past, if a decent explanation could be made.
(After all I don't see a shifter studying at MIT&M, or believing in the
Coyote Totem, perhaps its just me).
This is IMHO, and I'm sure others disagree.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 3
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:12:45 EDT
In a message dated 98-06-10 16:11:56 EDT, you write:

> I don't
> care what SR Comp says. I have yet to allow a Shifter PA. The way I figure
> it, their powers are already grounded to their bodies, sorta like the
> vampire debate we had awhile back.

Personally, I think this would make them more likely to be PA... they are so
grounded in their physical forms that it would be eassy for them to channel
any innate magical ability into them.

As for what magical tradition they would follow, I would make them similar to
Coyote shamans, but without the ethos... basically a mage who summons nature
spirits.

Nexx
Message no. 4
From: William Ashe <wmashe@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:14:52 -0700
>Do shapeshifters need to learn an unarmed combat skill, or do they just use
>the Critter style of unarmed combat (Reaction as skill)? After all, their
>animal form techniques would seem to be hardwired (do you know any martial
art
>form that is designed for tigers? Not based on, but designed for?), but
their
>human form techniques would be less likely to be so (after all, if you
think
>in terms of crushing your opponents neck with a bite, you're going to be
very
>confused when you suddenly have this teeny mouth). If a shifter phys-ad
takes
>unarmed combat bonus, does it affect both forms?
>
>Nexx

I agree; that a shapeshifter would have to learn unarmed combat/ human
style. But could a sentient critter learn unarmed combat/wolf style
(assuming a wolf).

Also I think I got this HTML reply crap fixed. If I'm still sending HTML,
let me know and I'll change my mail program

regards
Bright Light
Message no. 5
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:29:03 -0500
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:11:00 -0500 Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
writes:
>> Do shapeshifters need to learn an unarmed combat skill, or do they
just use
>> the Critter style of unarmed combat (Reaction as skill)? After all,
their
>> animal form techniques would seem to be hardwired (do you know any
martial
>> art form that is designed for tigers? Not based on, but designed
for?), but
>> their human form techniques would be less likely to be so (after all,
if you
>> think in terms of crushing your opponents neck with a bite, you're
going to
>> be very confused when you suddenly have this teeny mouth). If a
shifter
>> phys-ad takes unarmed combat bonus, does it affect both forms?

>Ouch...I was waiting for that. In the past I've let them have their
>usuall skill when human, and use their reaction when their in animal
form.
>The rest I leave up to roleplaying.

What I use is Beastform Combat is a seperate skill from Unarmed Combat
(seperated by 1 dot) so no, you can't use the Physad power of unarmed
combat as is for both forms. However you can can use it at a reduced
level (I don't recall where the rules are ... SRCo I think ...). for
every dot passed through (in this case 1) reduce the level of the
improved ability by one.

>Heh...and as for the last. I don't
>care what SR Comp says. I have yet to allow a Shifter PA. The way I
figure
>it, their powers are already grounded to their bodies, sorta like the
>vampire debate we had awhile back. Shifter mages are another touchy
subject.
>I've allowed it in the past, if a decent explanation could be made.

I think that's rather silly ... Shapers have fully mental human
capabilities ... they just have different personalities ... so why can't
they use magic? (BTW, speaking of PhysAd Vampires [a discussion before
my time apparently :) ], what happens if a PhysAd becomes a vampire?) ...
the only problem I see with PhysAd Shapers is they basically get Astral
Perception for free.

>(After all I don't see a shifter studying at MIT&M, or believing in the
>Coyote Totem, perhaps its just me).
>This is IMHO, and I'm sure others disagree.
>
>
>--
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lehlan Decker
<SNIP>

Oh really? And what about a Tiger or Leopard shifter following the Cat
totem. or a Bear shifter following, oh I don't know, Bear? I don't see
why shapers couldn't follow totems (I have fox shaper moon druid and
somehow, IMO, that seems very appropriate...). And I don't see why
shapers can't follow Totems that don't match their animal form ... no,
they wouldn't be common, but they might happen ... remember, the Totem
picks you not the other way around, and you don't neccissarily start out
as the model <insert Totem here> Shaman but instead move towards that
state as your bond with your Totem increases (it is a goal, not a state
of being ...) ... I think Shapers would be more likely to be shamans than
hermetics ... but I still believe a hermetic shifter would be possible.

AFAIK some of the traditional shapers of the orient were VERY magical,
however I must admit that most of such knowledge comes from Rolemaster's
Oriental Companion (most but not all ... however, it is rather difficult
to sort out what came from which source ...)

Oriental Shapers (Hengeyokai): Cat, Dog (Extremely Rarely Magicly
Active), Monkey, Rat, Crane, Fox, and Spider (bad in a big way ...)

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Message no. 6
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:36:24 EDT
In a message dated 6/10/98 8:04:04 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Nexx3@***.COM writes:

> Do shapeshifters need to learn an unarmed combat skill, or do they just use
> the Critter style of unarmed combat (Reaction as skill)? After all, their
> animal form techniques would seem to be hardwired (do you know any martial
> art
> form that is designed for tigers? Not based on, but designed for?), but
> their
> human form techniques would be less likely to be so (after all, if you
think
> in terms of crushing your opponents neck with a bite, you're going to be
> very
> confused when you suddenly have this teeny mouth). If a shifter phys-ad
> takes
> unarmed combat bonus, does it affect both forms?

1) If the shaper is an npc then use their reaction as their skill. If a
player, make them learn an Unarmed Combat (Natural Abilities) skill.

2) As for a martial art for Tigers, somewhere within Kung Fu (or whatever the
real name is which I can't remember at the moment) there should be a Tiger-
style Kung Fu. Otherwise the shaper Tiger should have a skill called Unarmed
Combat Theory (Martial Arts) to develop their own style of martial arts.

3) All abilities a shaper has exist in both forms. And a shaper Tiger with
centering could have their roar (growl ?!?) as a centering skill (something
called Shouting possibly ?!?).

-Mike
Message no. 7
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 04:02:39 -0500
> Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
>
> >Do shapeshifters need to learn an unarmed combat skill, or do they just use
> >the Critter style of unarmed combat (Reaction as skill)?

A spellcaster using "shapechange" uses reaction for critter combat
(afaik) AND gets a reaction bonus equal to intellegence (and attrib
bonus for spell success). Why should they fight BETTER than
shapeshifters? I'd let them use reaction or a skill in either form, and
give them a full PA bonus (not to exceed base dice) in both.

-Mongoose
Message no. 8
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:27:26 -0500
>
> In a message dated 98-06-10 16:11:56 EDT, you write:
>
> > I don't
> > care what SR Comp says. I have yet to allow a Shifter PA. The way I figure
> > it, their powers are already grounded to their bodies, sorta like the
> > vampire debate we had awhile back.
>
> Personally, I think this would make them more likely to be PA... they are so
> grounded in their physical forms that it would be eassy for them to channel
> any innate magical ability into them.
>
> As for what magical tradition they would follow, I would make them similar to
> Coyote shamans, but without the ethos... basically a mage who summons nature
> spirits.
>
I could work with you on that one. But between their modified regen, animal
senses, and hefty damage most (all my PC's like tigers and wolves of course)
do in animal form. Giving them PA/Mage powers seem unbalancing.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 9
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:36:23 -0500
>
> On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:11:00 -0500 Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
> writes:
>
> >Heh...and as for the last. I don't
> >care what SR Comp says. I have yet to allow a Shifter PA. The way I
> figure
> >it, their powers are already grounded to their bodies, sorta like the
> >vampire debate we had awhile back. Shifter mages are another touchy
> subject.
> >I've allowed it in the past, if a decent explanation could be made.
>
> I think that's rather silly ... Shapers have fully mental human
> capabilities ... they just have different personalities ... so why can't
> they use magic? (BTW, speaking of PhysAd Vampires [a discussion before
> my time apparently :) ], what happens if a PhysAd becomes a vampire?) ...
> the only problem I see with PhysAd Shapers is they basically get Astral
> Perception for free.
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Oh really? And what about a Tiger or Leopard shifter following the Cat
> totem. or a Bear shifter following, oh I don't know, Bear? I don't see
> why shapers couldn't follow totems (I have fox shaper moon druid and
> somehow, IMO, that seems very appropriate...). And I don't see why
> shapers can't follow Totems that don't match their animal form ... no,
> they wouldn't be common, but they might happen ... remember, the Totem
> picks you not the other way around, and you don't neccissarily start out
> as the model <insert Totem here> Shaman but instead move towards that
> state as your bond with your Totem increases (it is a goal, not a state
> of being ...) ... I think Shapers would be more likely to be shamans than
> hermetics ... but I still believe a hermetic shifter would be possible.
>
> AFAIK some of the traditional shapers of the orient were VERY magical,
> however I must admit that most of such knowledge comes from Rolemaster's
> Oriental Companion (most but not all ... however, it is rather difficult
> to sort out what came from which source ...)
>
> Oriental Shapers (Hengeyokai): Cat, Dog (Extremely Rarely Magicly
> Active), Monkey, Rat, Crane, Fox, and Spider (bad in a big way ...)
>
Ick, I probably should snip more..anyway. I won't argue with you
concerning shapers in other systems. Hell I even partially agree
with letting them have magic abilities. My problem (at least in my game)
was game balance. Shapers (particulary ones by my house rules, since I
disliked SRComp's) are fairly powerful in their own right. (It may also
be because I've almost never had a PC ask to play a Fox or Seal, or
something else that isn't "combat" oriented).
In my game Shapers are still fairly rare (depending on where you are),
and magic using shapers are still NPC's. YMMV and if my players want
a Seal Mage Shifter, I could probably swing that.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 10
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:59:29 EDT
In a message dated 98-06-11 09:27:37 EDT, you write:

> I could work with you on that one. But between their modified regen, animal
> senses, and hefty damage most (all my PC's like tigers and wolves of
course)
> do in animal form. Giving them PA/Mage powers seem unbalancing.

This brings up another topic on shapeshifters (for some reason, I am obsessed
with shape-changing... even the Naked Dwarf could turn into a bear... a really
BIG bear).

Has anyone comes up with other variants for shapeshifters? I've done coyotes,
eagles, and I think ravens... but what else have people come up with?

Nexx
Message no. 11
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:14:38 -0500
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:36:23 -0500 Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
writes:
>> On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:11:00 -0500 Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
>> writes:
<SNIP L.Decker: Shapers can't be PhysAds>
<SNIP D.Ghost: yes they can :P>
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> Oh really? And what about a Tiger or Leopard shifter following the
Cat
>> totem. or a Bear shifter following, oh I don't know, Bear? I don't
see
>> why shapers couldn't follow totems (I have fox shaper moon druid and
>> somehow, IMO, that seems very appropriate...). And I don't see why
>> shapers can't follow Totems that don't match their animal form ... no,
>> they wouldn't be common, but they might happen ... remember, the Totem
>> picks you not the other way around, and you don't neccissarily start
out
>> as the model <insert Totem here> Shaman but instead move towards that
>> state as your bond with your Totem increases (it is a goal, not a
state
>> of being ...) ... I think Shapers would be more likely to be shamans
than
>> hermetics ... but I still believe a hermetic shifter would be
possible.
>>
<SNIP traditional shapers of the orient (mostly based on RM)>

>Ick, I probably should snip more..anyway.

I did go on for a bit didn't I? :)

>I won't argue with you
>concerning shapers in other systems. Hell I even partially agree
>with letting them have magic abilities. My problem (at least in my game)
>was game balance. Shapers (particulary ones by my house rules, since I
>disliked SRComp's) are fairly powerful in their own right. (It may also
>be because I've almost never had a PC ask to play a Fox or Seal, or
>something else that isn't "combat" oriented).
>In my game Shapers are still fairly rare (depending on where you are),
>and magic using shapers are still NPC's. YMMV and if my players want
>a Seal Mage Shifter, I could probably swing that.
>
>
>--
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lehlan Decker
<SNIP Sig>

Well I made a tiger physad because I wanted to make that a siberian tiger
:) and the fox shaper is nasty as a mage (though not as far astral
Porjection is concerned since dual natured beings retain their physical
stats as their astral stats ...). Proper roleplaying ought to at least
partially balance the power of shaper mages/adepts since although the
tiger shaper might be a combat monster, he/she won't simply go around
beating the crap out of everything that looks at him/her funny ...

What do you use instead of SRCo? I use a mix of SRCo, BBB, and rule
tinkering ... I'm thinking of making a sys so you can just take the SR
stats of critter and make a shifter :) ... of course no Elephant or Rhino
shapers .... ick :) My guess is that players tend to go for Wolf and
Tiger shapers for imagery more than combat nastyness (one of my players
wanted to be a wolf shaper until she read their distinguishing features
:) ... problem is the Reaction Attribute and Attack power don't match up
exactly with standard calculations ... for the attack power I was
thinking of something like [Str / DL (round down)] + x where DL is a
number representing the damage level. 0.5 for light up to 4 for Deadly
using the same progression as the PhysAd Killing Hands power cost. and
the +x is a modifier to make the stats for the average critter fit.

Examples:
Dog, Small: standard strength =1; standard Attack = 3L;
Attack Power = [Str /.5] + 1.
Elephant: standard strength @; standard Attack = 10D;
Attack Power = [Str /4] + 0.
Shark, Large: standard strength ; standard Attack = 12D;
Attack Power = [Str /4] + 10.
Shark, Typical: standard strength =4; standard Attack = 10S;
Attack Power = [Str /2] + 8.
Tiger: standard strength =8; standard Attack = 10S;
Attack Power = [Str /2] + 6.

Hmmm... some of the numbers seem strange but I dunno, could be right ...
what do you think?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:36:48 -0500
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:59:29 EDT Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 98-06-11 09:27:37 EDT, you write:
>> I could work with you on that one. But between their modified regen,
animal
>> senses, and hefty damage most (all my PC's like tigers and wolves of
course)
>> do in animal form. Giving them PA/Mage powers seem unbalancing.

>This brings up another topic on shapeshifters (for some reason, I am
obsessed
>with shape-changing... even the Naked Dwarf could turn into a bear... a
really
>BIG bear).
>
>Has anyone comes up with other variants for shapeshifters? I've done
coyotes,
>eagles, and I think ravens... but what else have people come up with?
>
>Nexx

I was thinking of creating some of the traditional Oriental shapers ...
aw hell, why don't I do it now? :)

Cat, Dog, Monkey, Rat, and Crane (maybe I'll do spider later)

first the standard animal stats:
Cat, Dog, and Rat are given in the BBB

Animal Body Quick Str Cha Int Will Ess React Attack
Monkey (Chimp) 3 3x3 3 - 3/4 3 6 3 6M
Crane 1 5x4 1 - 2/4 2 6 3 3L
movement multiplier is x2 on land
(Stats are based on Rolemaster's Creatures and Monsters)

now for the Shaper stats (human form over animal form, a 0 means no
modifier, not a 0 stat)
Shaper Bod Quick Str Cha Int Will React Attack
Cat 0 +1 0 0 0 0 0
-1 +1 -1 0 0/+2 0 +2* [str]+2 M, -1 reach
Crane -1 +1 -1 +2 +1 +1 0
-2 +1 -2 +2 +1/+2 +1 0 [str/2]+3 L
Dog no modifiers
0 +1 0 0 0/+2 0 +1 [str]+3 M
Monkey 0 0 0 +2 0 0 0
0 0 0 +2 0/+1 0 0 [str]+3 M
Rat -1 0 -2 -1 +1 0 0
-2 +2 -3 -1 +1/+3 0 +2 [str/2]+2 L, -1 reach

Hmmm... these stats don't fit with the SRCo do they? oh well ... tell me
what you think ... :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 13
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:32:05 -0500
>
> On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:36:23 -0500 Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
> writes:

> Well I made a tiger physad because I wanted to make that a siberian tiger
> :) and the fox shaper is nasty as a mage (though not as far astral
> Porjection is concerned since dual natured beings retain their physical
> stats as their astral stats ...). Proper roleplaying ought to at least
> partially balance the power of shaper mages/adepts since although the
> tiger shaper might be a combat monster, he/she won't simply go around
> beating the crap out of everything that looks at him/her funny ...
>
> What do you use instead of SRCo? I use a mix of SRCo, BBB, and rule
> tinkering ... I'm thinking of making a sys so you can just take the SR
> stats of critter and make a shifter :) ... of course no Elephant or Rhino
> shapers .... ick :) My guess is that players tend to go for Wolf and
> Tiger shapers for imagery more than combat nastyness (one of my players
> wanted to be a wolf shaper until she read their distinguishing features
> :) ... problem is the Reaction Attribute and Attack power don't match up
> exactly with standard calculations ... for the attack power I was
> thinking of something like [Str / DL (round down)] + x where DL is a
> number representing the damage level. 0.5 for light up to 4 for Deadly
> using the same progression as the PhysAd Killing Hands power cost. and
> the +x is a modifier to make the stats for the average critter fit.
>
I have a variant house rules, based on the BBB I made up a looong time
ago. (I think as soon as I read Tikki's story in the anthology matter
of fact). I usually handle it on a case by case basis, and have actually
had very few players in recent days want to play one.
I have my very own Tiger Shaper, from way way way back named Twitch.
Wonder if I still have the sheet...hehh..I need a new NPC.


> Examples:
> Dog, Small: standard strength =1; standard Attack = 3L;
> Attack Power = [Str /.5] + 1.
> Elephant: standard strength @; standard Attack = 10D;
> Attack Power = [Str /4] + 0.
> Shark, Large: standard strength ; standard Attack = 12D;
> Attack Power = [Str /4] + 10.
> Shark, Typical: standard strength =4; standard Attack = 10S;
> Attack Power = [Str /2] + 8.
> Tiger: standard strength =8; standard Attack = 10S;
> Attack Power = [Str /2] + 6.
>
> Hmmm... some of the numbers seem strange but I dunno, could be right ...
> what do you think?
>
I could work with that. A small dog doing 3L is fairly realistic, while
a Rottwieler or Pittbull would probably be in the 5L or such.
If I ever seen someone shapeshift into an elephant, I'm running...very very
very very very fast. Hmm..what about a crocodile shaper? It comes to
mind after some of the recent animal planet and discovery shows I've
seen. :)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 14
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:43:40 -0500
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:32:05 -0500 Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
writes:
<SNIP>
>If I ever seen someone shapeshift into an elephant, I'm running...very
very
>very very very fast. Hmm..what about a crocodile shaper? It comes to
>mind after some of the recent animal planet and discovery shows I've
>seen. :)
>
>
>--
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lehlan Decker
<SNIP Sig>

LOL, the Elephant was just as an example and since you can have stronger
than average critters (up to 150% of normal stats IIRC, which would mean
a 60 strength! and by my system, a 15D attack ...)

Ok, two new shapers (1 cuz you asked, the other cuz I'm feeling silly ;):
Turtle ("Cowabunga, dude!")
Croc ("I'm gonna catch me a turtle, I gah-run-teee!")

first Animal stats (converted from RMSS's Creatures & Monsters & RM's RMC
VI)
Critter Bod Quick Str Cha Int Wil Ess React Attack
Croc/Alligator
Large 6/1 2x3 30 - 1/3 2 6 2 8S
in water 2x4
Small 4/1 2x3 25 - 1/3 2 6 2 8M
in water 2x4
Tortoise
Large 2/2 1x2 0 - 1/3 2 6 2 2L, -1 reach
Small 1/2 1x2 0 - 1/3 2 6 2 2L, -1 reach
Turtle
Large 4/2 1x2 0 - 1/3 2 6 2 4M, -1 reach
in water 2x4 3 4M, -1 reach
Small 1/2 1x2 0 - 1/3 2 6 2 2L, -1 reach
in water 2x4 3 2L, -1 reach

hmmm... the animal stats don't look right ...
Have to fix them before we can make shifters for them ... anybody know
what would be right?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 15
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:05:00 -0500
>
> LOL, the Elephant was just as an example and since you can have stronger
> than average critters (up to 150% of normal stats IIRC, which would mean
> a 60 strength! and by my system, a 15D attack ...)
>
> Ok, two new shapers (1 cuz you asked, the other cuz I'm feeling silly ;):
> Turtle ("Cowabunga, dude!")
> Croc ("I'm gonna catch me a turtle, I gah-run-teee!")
>
> first Animal stats (converted from RMSS's Creatures & Monsters & RM's RMC
> VI)
> Critter Bod Quick Str Cha Int Wil Ess React Attack
> Croc/Alligator
> Large 6/1 2x3 30 - 1/3 2 6 2 8S
> in water 2x4
> Small 4/1 2x3 25 - 1/3 2 6 2 8M
> in water 2x4
> Tortoise
> Large 2/2 1x2 0 - 1/3 2 6 2 2L, -1 reach
> Small 1/2 1x2 0 - 1/3 2 6 2 2L, -1 reach
> Turtle
> Large 4/2 1x2 0 - 1/3 2 6 2 4M, -1 reach
> in water 2x4 3 4M, -1 reach
> Small 1/2 1x2 0 - 1/3 2 6 2 2L, -1 reach
> in water 2x4 3 2L, -1 reach
>
> hmmm... the animal stats don't look right ...
> Have to fix them before we can make shifters for them ... anybody know
> what would be right?
>
Hmm..Gators with an STR of 25+, that would make them on par with
dragons I think. I don't see it. Perhaps a 10-15 at most. (I forsee
a large troll wrestling gators).
Gators are also fairly fast to react. Perhaps a bit more on init.
Turtles. Those look ok. Depends on whether you talking about your
average turtle, a snapping turtle, or a sea turtle. Didn't
FASA have stats for an awakened Sea Turtle? I'll double check when I run
home to let the dogs out. :)

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 16
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:23:54 -0500
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:05:00 -0500 Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
writes:
<SNIP>
>> hmmm... the animal stats don't look right ...
>> Have to fix them before we can make shifters for them ... anybody know
>> what would be right?

>Hmm..Gators with an STR of 25+, that would make them on par with
>dragons I think. I don't see it. Perhaps a 10-15 at most. (I forsee
>a large troll wrestling gators).
>Gators are also fairly fast to react. Perhaps a bit more on init.
>Turtles. Those look ok. Depends on whether you talking about your
>average turtle, a snapping turtle, or a sea turtle. Didn't
> FASA have stats for an awakened Sea Turtle? I'll double check when I
run
>home to let the dogs out. :)
>
>--
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lehlan Decker
<SNIP Sig>

Well, according to the RMC VI which I was using as a reference, they are
stronger than Rhinos but not as strong as Elephants ... (an Elephant has
a strength bonus of +120, a Rhino of +50, a large croc of +75, and a
small of +45 ... for reference, RM Dragons have Strength bonuses of +190
to +470 ... and just to give you nightmares, a Leviathon has a strength
bonus of +8200 [but hey, 500'-1000' {152-304 meters} foot long dragons
tend to be pretty strong ...] ... hmmmm, might be interesting to use this
critter in a campaign as the /first/ dragon ...)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 17
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:13:29 -0500
> Well, according to the RMC VI which I was using as a reference, they are
> stronger than Rhinos but not as strong as Elephants ... (an Elephant has
> a strength bonus of +120, a Rhino of +50, a large croc of +75, and a
> small of +45 ... for reference, RM Dragons have Strength bonuses of +190
> to +470 ... and just to give you nightmares, a Leviathon has a strength
> bonus of +8200 [but hey, 500'-1000' {152-304 meters} foot long dragons
> tend to be pretty strong ...] ... hmmmm, might be interesting to use this
> critter in a campaign as the /first/ dragon ...)
>
Well the North America Critter book, lists the awakend leatherback.
None of the stats were above six I believe. (I should have written
the down), and your talking about a turtle the size of a person.
I'm guessing RMC is Role Master? What is a human's average strength?
Thier scale doesn't mesh well with SR's by the look of it.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 18
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:27:29 -0500
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:13:29 -0500 Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
writes:
>> Well, according to the RMC VI which I was using as a reference, they
are
>> stronger than Rhinos but not as strong as Elephants ... (an Elephant
has
>> a strength bonus of +120, a Rhino of +50, a large croc of +75, and a
>> small of +45 ... for reference, RM Dragons have Strength bonuses of
+190
>> to +470 ... and just to give you nightmares, a Leviathon has a
strength
>> bonus of +8200 [but hey, 500'-1000' {152-304 meters} foot long dragons
>> tend to be pretty strong ...] ... hmmmm, might be interesting to use
this
>> critter in a campaign as the /first/ dragon ...)

>Well the North America Critter book, lists the awakend leatherback.
>None of the stats were above six I believe. (I should have written
>the down), and your talking about a turtle the size of a person.
>I'm guessing RMC is Role Master? What is a human's average strength?
>Thier scale doesn't mesh well with SR's by the look of it.
>
>--
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lehlan Decker
<SNIP>
Average strength is a 50 which gives a strength bonus of 0, then a human
has a racial srength bonus of +5, for a total strength bonus of +5.
Alligators/crocs are supposed to be strong as hell ... hold on, lemme
check something ... hmmmm ... the listed size is 5'-19.5'(1.5-5.9 m)

If you can think of the name of the critter, I've got the P/E which lists
the stats for P/NA ... an Afanc which is an 4.5 meter awakened crochas a
strength of 8 ... and a reeaction of 3 ... :/

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 19
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:41:54 -0500
> Average strength is a 50 which gives a strength bonus of 0, then a human
> has a racial srength bonus of +5, for a total strength bonus of +5.
> Alligators/crocs are supposed to be strong as hell ... hold on, lemme
> check something ... hmmmm ... the listed size is 5'-19.5'(1.5-5.9 m)
>
> If you can think of the name of the critter, I've got the P/E which lists
> the stats for P/NA ... an Afanc which is an 4.5 meter awakened crochas a
> strength of 8 ... and a reeaction of 3 ... :/
>
Hmm..so SR average =3, RMC average = 55
Interesting. The leatherback is in Paranomal Guide to North America.
Has the powers of engulf, I think 2 points of armor, etc.
I think there is an awakened aligator in one of the books as well, but
I didn't check.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 20
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:47:25 EDT
In a message dated 98-06-12 13:05:31 EDT, you write:

> Didn't
> FASA have stats for an awakened Sea Turtle?

Yep... the New Leatherback, with the engulf power
Message no. 21
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:31:56 -0500
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:41:54 -0500 Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
writes:
>> Average strength is a 50 which gives a strength bonus of 0, then a
human
>> has a racial srength bonus of +5, for a total strength bonus of +5.
>> Alligators/crocs are supposed to be strong as hell ... hold on, lemme
>> check something ... hmmmm ... the listed size is 5'-19.5'(1.5-5.9 m)
>>
>> If you can think of the name of the critter, I've got the P/E which
lists
>> the stats for P/NA ... an Afanc which is an 4.5 meter awakened crochas
a
>> strength of 8 ... and a reeaction of 3 ... :/

>Hmm..so SR average =3, RMC average = 55
>Interesting. The leatherback is in Paranomal Guide to North America.
>Has the powers of engulf, I think 2 points of armor, etc.
>I think there is an awakened aligator in one of the books as well, but
>I didn't check.
>--
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lehlan Decker
<SNIP Sig>

no, you don't add the strength stat and the strength bonus ... in fact
you don't normally use the strength stat except for determining the
strength bonus.

An Average human has a strength bonus of +5 in RM, and Str 3 in SR
An Average elf has a strength bonus of +0 in RM, and Str 3 in SR

Critters from P/NA with Engulf and 2 pts of armor:
none .... maybe armor has been changed? ... oh wait found it ... has 3
points of armor ... the New Leatherback strength of 5 .... but how big is
it?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 22
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:38:03 +0100
At 11-Jun-98 wrote Nexx Many-Scars:


>Has anyone comes up with other variants for shapeshifters? I've done
coyotes,
>eagles, and I think ravens... but what else have people come up with?

Burmesian Phyton
(This char is on my page if someone is interested)

And since I have made up house rules for modifying animal stats for use as
shapers I have no prob turning any anima in SR into a shaper.

--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft?"
--Christine Comaford PC Week 27/9/95

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters and Combat
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:52:03 +0100
At 11-Jun-98 wrote Alfredo B Alves:



>What do you use instead of SRCo? I use a mix of SRCo, BBB, and rule
>tinkering ... I'm thinking of making a sys so you can just take the SR
>stats of critter and make a shifter :)

Well Pix as you already know I`m working on a shaper sup and that part is
already
done if you want to see the current status fell free to drop a line :)
--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft?"
--Christine Comaford PC Week 27/9/95

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------

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