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Message no. 1
From: Tobias.D@********.de (Burning Avatar)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:52:29 +0200
Hoi chummers!

I've a problem with these animals: which attribute values use a
shapeshifter to learn (or raise) skills? The human or the animal ones?

Except in some obvious cases where it is clear in which form the
shapeshifter has to be (I don't think, that an animal can imrpove it`s
capability in using e.g. pistols or electronics, so it has to switch to
its human form for learning these), but what about athletics, unarmed
combat, the magical skills etc. ...?

Can the shapeshifter choose the better one? Has he learn the skills for
both forms seperately?

thx Burning Avatar

--
BA's Data Haven: http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/shadowrun
Message no. 2
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:54:15 +0200
According to Burning Avatar, on Saturday 31 May 2003 08:52 the word on the
street was...

> Can the shapeshifter choose the better one? Has he learn the skills for
> both forms seperately?

I'd say that, because shapeshifters are animals that change into humans,
they'd use the animal attributes to determine the Karma cost, except for
the skills they can only use in human form.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hooligans (zn) baldadige watervogel
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: nightgyr@*********.com.au (GreyWolf)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 19:25:51 +1000
> Can the shapeshifter choose the better one? Has he learn the skills for
> both forms seperately?
>
> thx Burning Avatar

Id say to use the human stats.

Why?

1. The shapeshifters ability is a boost (or limit) to the stat when in
animal form - not an actual stat itself.

2. It also stays in line with the gernal feel of the SR karma system.

3. Its a good idea basing things off the stats on the sheet. Imagine
allowing a mage with a quickened boost to willpower (which is bought with
karma just like shapechanging is) buying sorcery up high at the cheap rate?
It just smacks of a bit of a rort.

4. Do the same even if th animal form gives a minus to a stat. Gotta be fair
after all :)

nb: Just my suggestions 8-)

GreyWolf
Message no. 4
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 11:12:02 +0200
GreyWolf wrote :

>> Can the shapeshifter choose the better one? Has he learn the skills
>> for
>> both forms seperately?
>>
>> thx Burning Avatar
>
> Id say to use the human stats.
>
> Why?
>
> 1. The shapeshifters ability is a boost (or limit) to the stat when in
> animal form - not an actual stat itself.

It's been a while since I last read the Companion, but IIRC
shapeshifters must buy physical attributes separately for their 2
forms. They can be very athletic humans while remaining complete
vegetables as animals -- though the opposite happens more often.
Besides, like Gurth pointed out, they're animals, not humans: animal
form is their primary form.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 5
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 11:13:06 +0200
>> Can the shapeshifter choose the better one? Has he learn the skills for
>> both forms seperately?
>>
>> thx Burning Avatar

G> Id say to use the human stats.

G> Why?

G> 1. The shapeshifters ability is a boost (or limit) to the stat when in
G> animal form - not an actual stat itself.
G> GreyWolf

----------------------

The animal form is the natural form as I understand it. It was only choosen to express
the animal attributes as modifiers for the human ones (dunno the
reason beyond that), but in
"reality" it would be more apropriate to express the human atributes
as the animal ones with modifiers. That would also be the way in which
the shapechanger feels it I would say, for example the shapechaner
would not feel quicker in animal form it would feel slower in human
form because the animal form is its birt form.

ok maybe i got sligtlhy OT here ;)

Greetz
Hexren
Message no. 6
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 11:23:13 +0100
At 07:52 AM 31/5/2003, Burning Avatar wrote:
>I've a problem with these animals: which attribute values use a
>shapeshifter to learn (or raise) skills? The human or the animal ones?
>
>Except in some obvious cases where it is clear in which form the
>shapeshifter has to be (I don't think, that an animal can imrpove it`s
>capability in using e.g. pistols or electronics, so it has to switch to
>its human form for learning these), but what about athletics, unarmed
>combat, the magical skills etc. ...?

I'd say they use the lower version of the attribute except where the skill
can only be used in one form. Just because the animal form has a vastly
enhanced strength doesn't make the human form any better at beating on
people, in fact they're more likely to injure themselves trying something
their animal form would have no problem with... Think about a bear shifter,
as a bear a swipe with those front claws is a devastating attack as a human
it's very likely to break fingers, the shifters rather than anyone elses. A
lemur or a monkey is going to find the whole being human thing really
difficult, weak and slow.
However a slug shifter (now there's a cool idea :D ) will only learn to
point a firearm in human form and shouldn't have a problem with existing
habits interfering.

But then I don't like 'shifters as PCs anyway, I don't know many people who
can play animals properly, especially where it comes to motivations.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 7
From: fuchsiawonder@*****.com (Matt Huber)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
--- Burning Avatar <Tobias.D@********.de> wrote:
> Hoi chummers!
>
> I've a problem with these animals: which attribute values use a
> shapeshifter to learn (or raise) skills? The human or the animal
> ones?

> ...but what about athletics, unarmed
> combat, the magical skills etc. ...?

At least for magical skills, it doesn't matter. Mental Attributes are
the same for both forms.

-Matt/Pickle/Jew-Pac

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Message no. 8
From: Tobias.D@********.de (Burning Avatar)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:06:43 +0200
On Sat, 31 May 2003 11:23:13 +0100 Lone Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk>
wrote:

> Just because the animal form has a
> vastly enhanced strength doesn't make the human form any better at
> beating on people, in fact they're more likely to injure themselves
> trying something their animal form would have no problem with... Think
> about a bear shifter, as a bear a swipe with those front claws is a
> devastating attack as a human it's very likely to break fingers, the
> shifters rather than anyone elses.

And that's why I thougth about learning a skill (unarmed combat in this
case) for each form seperately and default in human form from the animal
unarmed combat, if the human form hasn't learned how to fight jet.

- Burning Avatar

--
BA's Data Haven: http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/shadowrun
Message no. 9
From: Tobias.D@********.de (Burning Avatar)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:14:19 +0200
On Sat, 31 May 2003 18:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Matt Huber
<fuchsiawonder@*****.com> wrote:

> > ...but what about athletics, unarmed
> > combat, the magical skills etc. ...?
>
> At least for magical skills, it doesn't matter. Mental Attributes are
> the same for both forms.

Really? So they changed the rules since SRComp?

Sure, most modifiers in SRComp are physically but some are mental too
(e.g.: Bear animal -2 Will but not in human form; and Tiger has also
mental mods for animal form but not for human)

> -Matt/Pickle/Jew-Pac

- Burning Avatar

--
BA's Data Haven: http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/shadowrun
Message no. 10
From: fuchsiawonder@*****.com (Matt Huber)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 00:56:02 -0700 (PDT)
--- Burning Avatar <Tobias.D@********.de> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 May 2003 18:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Matt Huber
> <fuchsiawonder@*****.com> wrote:

> > > ...but what about athletics, unarmed
> > > combat, the magical skills etc. ...?
> >
> > At least for magical skills, it doesn't matter. Mental Attributes
> are
> > the same for both forms.
>
> Really? So they changed the rules since SRComp?

...Er, no.

> Sure, most modifiers in SRComp are physically but some are mental too
> (e.g.: Bear animal -2 Will but not in human form; and Tiger has also
> mental mods for animal form but not for human)

Yes, some shifters have mental mods. Those are applicable to both
forms.

Quoth the Companion:

p.35 - "The Mental Attributes (Charisma, Intelligence, and Willpower)
are always the same, no matter what form the shapeshifter is in."

-Matt/Pickle/Jew-Pac

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Message no. 11
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 11:11:20 +0100
At 08:06 AM 1/6/2003, Burning Avatar wrote:
>And that's why I thougth about learning a skill (unarmed combat in this
>case) for each form seperately and default in human form from the animal
>unarmed combat, if the human form hasn't learned how to fight jet.

I wouldn't go that far, although it is a reasonable mechanic... In fact the
more I think about it the more sense it makes.
If you can get away with it without a player revolt then...


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

GCC0.2: y75>?.uk[NN] G87 S@:@@[SR] B+++ f+ RM(RR) rm++ rr++ l++(--) m- w
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Message no. 12
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:57:23 +0200
According to Burning Avatar, on Sunday 01 June 2003 09:06 the word on the
street was...

> And that's why I thougth about learning a skill (unarmed combat in this
> case) for each form seperately and default in human form from the animal
> unarmed combat, if the human form hasn't learned how to fight jet.

Isn't this a bit unfair on shapeshifters, though? They'll have to spend
almost twice as much Karma as other people in order to learn skills if
they want to be able to use them all the time...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hooligans (zn) baldadige watervogel
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Tobias.D@********.de (Burning Avatar)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 15:56:55 +0200
On Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:57:23 +0200 Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> > And that's why I thougth about learning a skill (unarmed combat in
> > this case) for each form seperately and default in human form from
> > the animal unarmed combat, if the human form hasn't learned how to
> > fight jet.
>
> Isn't this a bit unfair on shapeshifters, though? They'll have to
> spend almost twice as much Karma as other people in order to learn
> skills if they want to be able to use them all the time...

Eh, I don't ment every skill. Only those that involve physical actions
and are useable in both forms.

ATM I think about unarmed combat, athletics and stehlth. Looking at the
skill list of SR3, I don't see other useful skills for an animal, that
would be used regulary. And if he want to use a *humen* skill, he can
default from that skill.

- Burning Avatar

--
BA's Data Haven: http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/shadowrun
Message no. 14
From: Tobias.D@********.de (Burning Avatar)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 15:11:12 +0200
On Sun, 1 Jun 2003 00:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Matt Huber
<fuchsiawonder@*****.com> wrote:

> p.35 - "The Mental Attributes (Charisma, Intelligence, and Willpower)
> are always the same, no matter what form the shapeshifter is in."

thx I overread that sentence ;)

- Burning Avatar

--
BA's Data Haven: http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/shadowrun
Message no. 15
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: shapeshifter, skills and attribute modifiers
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:39:27 +1000 (EST)
--- Lone Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk> wrote: >
<snip> But then I don't like 'shifters as PCs anyway,
I
> don't know many people who
> can play animals properly, especially where it comes
> to motivations.

Well maybe If theyh'd actually studied the animal,
then there wouldn't have been a problem with
motivation & better roleplaying. I played a horse
shapeshifter (damion's approval)seeing as It was my
career path at the time, It's worked quite well IMHO
(untill I allowed infection by a ghoul) I worked
shadows to afford feed bill & some grazing land, etc.
I had to explain a few things to my gm, like horses
only sleep a couple of hours a day, I would probabely
be alot taller than the average human to make up for
the weight ratio between tranformation ( average horse
400kg, thourbred 500 - 600 easy as athletes little fat
& muscle heavier than fat, aswell as height 16.2 hh)
In exchange I had to eat 2 - 2 1/2 more than average
human to represent large animal/higher metabolism
being restricted from constant grazing etc. I was also
non confrontational phys/adept who had evasive spells,
& flight or fight instinct, rarely engaging melee &
had stylized spells like a giant horse turd as
signature for fart/stink spell.

I'll quit rambling, If you want my notes on horse
shapeshifter give us a yell, my advise research your
beast before play, you might actually enjoy what you
learn as well as enjoy the stylization & coolness of
roleplaying It's peculiar perks :)

GZ - cowboy nerd was a nickname I earn't with my vast
knowledge on all things rural & horsie :)

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