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Message no. 1
From: Owen Landgren <wodin@********.COM>
Subject: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:56:06 -0700
Just out of curiosity, what makes the Shapeshifter PC rules in SRC so
bad?

They have several disadvantages, like the bestial nature and no
cyberware flaws. Admittedly, regeneration is really good, and a mage
might get abusive if played long enough. Is the problem that the main
penalty (has no idea how the world works) is a roleplaying problem?

Curiosity killed the cat. . . and maybe even the Tiger shapeshifter.
Flame away, all.

--
Owen Landgren
Keeper of the Great Blue Egg of Reclai

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Message no. 2
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:31:54 -0500
----------
> From: Owen Landgren <wodin@********.COM>

> Just out of curiosity, what makes the Shapeshifter PC rules in SRC so
> bad?

Probably because they're a huge departure from normal PC's. When you get
right down to it, shapeshifters have very few reasons to be running the
shadows. I have a wolf shapeshifter in a PBEM, and he's running into this
problem. If his totem hadn't told him to be there, he likely wouldn't be
in the city, much less with our merry band of sociopaths. He doesn't
really have much in the way of goals, doesn't think much about the future,
except in terms of what his current action might result in. He's an
animal that walks as a man, and he's finding that the world of the
man-things is much more confusing than he likes.

> They have several disadvantages, like the bestial nature and no
> cyberware flaws. Admittedly, regeneration is really good, and a mage
> might get abusive if played long enough. Is the problem that the main
> penalty (has no idea how the world works) is a roleplaying problem?

Actually, I add a couple flaws onto a lot of shapeshifter characters
(well, I would if I could find a group). Most would get, without
recompense, the flaws of Sensitive system (call me an optimist, but I
would allow some fully clonal bioware to be placed in a shapeshifter...
but that's gonna cost him more than most will be willing to pay), Uncouth,
and Uneducated. Many are going to be chronologically about 3-6 years old
as beginning characters, and I'll penalize people who act too human.

> Curiosity killed the cat. . . and maybe even the Tiger shapeshifter.
> Flame away, all.

Curiosity was framed. Ignorance killed the cat.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
"The Kelti said of themselves that they did not lie, but they sometimes
took a very long way around in getting to the truth, with frequent stops
at interesting spots along the way."
-Morgan Llywelyn "The Horse Goddess"
Message no. 3
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:23:45 EDT
In a message dated 8/25/1998 12:06:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
wodin@********.COM writes:

> Just out of curiosity, what makes the Shapeshifter PC rules in SRC so
> bad?
>
> They have several disadvantages, like the bestial nature and no
> cyberware flaws. Admittedly, regeneration is really good, and a mage
> might get abusive if played long enough. Is the problem that the main
> penalty (has no idea how the world works) is a roleplaying problem?
>
> Curiosity killed the cat. . . and maybe even the Tiger shapeshifter.
> Flame away, all.
>
>
Actually, in SR3 rules applied liberally to the SRComp, the Shapeshifter PC is
now much more balanced as a magician. Drain (Physically damaging drain
anyway) no longer will heal by Regeneration, as at least IMO, Regeneration is
a magical power for a Shaper, and SR3 has rules about magic healing
drain/damage by magical means.

-K
Message no. 4
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:35:10 -0400
> Just out of curiosity, what makes the Shapeshifter PC rules in SRC so
> bad?
>
> They have several disadvantages, like the bestial nature and no
> cyberware flaws. Admittedly, regeneration is really good, and a mage
> might get abusive if played long enough. Is the problem that the main
> penalty (has no idea how the world works) is a roleplaying problem?
>
> Curiosity killed the cat. . . and maybe even the Tiger shapeshifter.
> Flame away, all.
>
Um, they're twinks?

Game companies always put out these hyperpowerful PC
archetypes/RCC/classes whose only serious drawback in a real world
system would be social or emotional. IF you get someone who can and will
do the things necessary to play them right they aren't too bad.
Generally though people tend to forget or ignore the annoying aspects of
the PC and revel in its god-like powers.
Not to harp but this is VERY common in Rifts and (the
now defunct) Torg.
Message no. 5
From: Tim Burke <ranger@********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:10:35 +1000
At 08:35 AM 25-08-98 -0400, you wrote:
>> Just out of curiosity, what makes the Shapeshifter PC rules in SRC so
>> bad?
>>
>> They have several disadvantages, like the bestial nature and no
>> cyberware flaws. Admittedly, regeneration is really good, and a mage
>> might get abusive if played long enough. Is the problem that the main
>> penalty (has no idea how the world works) is a roleplaying problem?
>>
>> Curiosity killed the cat. . . and maybe even the Tiger shapeshifter.
>> Flame away, all.
>>
> Um, they're twinks?
>
> Game companies always put out these hyperpowerful PC
>archetypes/RCC/classes whose only serious drawback in a real world
>system would be social or emotional. IF you get someone who can and will
>do the things necessary to play them right they aren't too bad.
>Generally though people tend to forget or ignore the annoying aspects of
>the PC and revel in its god-like powers.
> Not to harp but this is VERY common in Rifts and (the
>now defunct) Torg.
>

The one and only shapeshifter our old GM allowed seemed
to be pretty powerful and a balance breaker _until_ he hit a
completely warded building. Ever see the funny looks you
get when you're dual natured and try to cross a ward.
Splat.
This had us ROTFLOL.

I think initially the GM underestimated the power of the
shapeshifter PC and creamed him from the astral
by a swarm of ticked off bugs when he _finally_ realised
that they are very disruptive to party dynamics IMHO.

Tim Burke
ranger@********.com.au
http://bear.tm/conjure/ ConJure 98. Brisbane's newest convention.
http://welcome.to/shadowrunning Shadowrun PBeM Site
Message no. 6
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:35:14 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Tim Burke wrote:

->At 08:35 AM 25-08-98 -0400, you wrote:
->>> Just out of curiosity, what makes the Shapeshifter PC rules in SRC so
->>> bad?
->>>
->>> They have several disadvantages, like the bestial nature and no
->>> cyberware flaws. Admittedly, regeneration is really good, and a mage
->>> might get abusive if played long enough. Is the problem that the main
->>> penalty (has no idea how the world works) is a roleplaying problem?
->>
->> Game companies always put out these hyperpowerful PC
->>archetypes/RCC/classes whose only serious drawback in a real world
->>system would be social or emotional. IF you get someone who can and will
->>do the things necessary to play them right they aren't too bad.
->>Generally though people tend to forget or ignore the annoying aspects of
->>the PC and revel in its god-like powers.
->
->The one and only shapeshifter our old GM allowed seemed
->to be pretty powerful and a balance breaker _until_ he hit a
->completely warded building. Ever see the funny looks you
->get when you're dual natured and try to cross a ward.
->Splat.
->This had us ROTFLOL.

Sounds similar to the arguments against the Highlander Immortal
rules (yeah, like the TV show, not the movie exactly). People said they
were severely unbalancing (thinking the TV show). I'm running a campaign
in which there are three immortals and a street sammy. Just to remind the
immortals, I use wards a lot. Immortals, by my definition, are dual
natured as well and cannot cross the ward without destroying it. Not to
mention their regenerative abilities are more like a Spirit than a Critter
(1 box per minute spent out of combat instead of all in one turn). With
the Hunters, Watchers and other Immortals all gunning for them, I'd say
Shapeshifters are more unbalancing than the Immortals. The street sammy
regularly has to help out the Immortals because they can't be sensed, can
go through wards like they're not there, usually much faster than the
Immortals, etc.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 7
From: Brandon Kern <bkern@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:03:37 -0700
From: Owen Landgren <wodin@********.COM>

> Just out of curiosity, what makes the Shapeshifter PC rules in SRC so
> bad?

In my games, I prefer awakened creatures to be something unusual. Having one
constantly in the party reduces them to the level of commonplace. As a
result, much of their mystique is lost. (IMO of course).


--
You are www.primenet.com/~bkern
What you do ICQ: 879171
When it counts. Pariah(-ic)
-The Masao
Message no. 8
From: Matt T Ork <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:21:39 -0400
On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:56:06 -0700 Owen Landgren <wodin@********.COM>
writes:
>Just out of curiosity, what makes the Shapeshifter PC rules in SRC so
>bad?

Huh. They've never seemed that way to me. Maybe I need to read the
rules closer...

>They have several disadvantages, like the bestial nature and no
>cyberware flaws. Admittedly, regeneration is really good, and a mage
>might get abusive if played long enough. Is the problem that the main
>penalty (has no idea how the world works) is a roleplaying problem?

Given to a decent role-player, I don't see why a 'shifter'd be so bad.
By 'decent role-player' I mean somebody who won't turn the creature into
a 'killing machine.' There really doesn't seem to be much reason for a
'shifter to spend a really extended period of time in a city, like Nexx
said. Take Striper from 'To Hunt the Hunter.' She went to get her cub,
and spent as little time as possible doing it and then getting out. A
werewhatever more than likely just won't see the need to stay in the
sprawl, unless the circumstances are really wierd.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"Here kitty, kitty, kitty...c'mere ya little...oh, hell..."

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:53:32 -0400
> Given to a decent role-player, I don't see why a 'shifter'd be so bad.
> By 'decent role-player' I mean somebody who won't turn the creature
> into
> a 'killing machine.'
>
Given to a decent role player a tac nuke is no big deal.
Its just that most folk can't resist munching on the power.

> There really doesn't seem to be much reason for a
> 'shifter to spend a really extended period of time in a city, like
> Nexx
> said. Take Striper from 'To Hunt the Hunter.' She went to get her
> cub,
> and spent as little time as possible doing it and then getting out. A
> werewhatever more than likely just won't see the need to stay in the
> sprawl, unless the circumstances are really wierd.
>
OK, so why would they be in a shadowrun team?
Message no. 10
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:11:28 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

->> There really doesn't seem to be much reason for a
->> 'shifter to spend a really extended period of time in a city, like
->> Nexx
->> said. Take Striper from 'To Hunt the Hunter.' She went to get her
->> cub,
->> and spent as little time as possible doing it and then getting out. A
->> werewhatever more than likely just won't see the need to stay in the
->> sprawl, unless the circumstances are really wierd.
->>
-> OK, so why would they be in a shadowrun team?

Ecological terrorism? (In a NAN campaign) Magically adept group
member? Hmm... if all the players were Shapeshifters, a "Call of the
Wild" campaign? ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 11
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:08:06 -0400
> ->> There really doesn't seem to be much reason for a
> ->> 'shifter to spend a really extended period of time in a city, like
> ->> Nexx
> ->> said. Take Striper from 'To Hunt the Hunter.' She went to get
> her
> ->> cub,
> ->> and spent as little time as possible doing it and then getting
> out. A
> ->> werewhatever more than likely just won't see the need to stay in
> the
> ->> sprawl, unless the circumstances are really wierd.
> ->>
> -> OK, so why would they be in a shadowrun team?
>
> Ecological terrorism? (In a NAN campaign) Magically adept
> group
> member? Hmm... if all the players were Shapeshifters, a "Call of the
> Wild" campaign? ]:-)
>
Basically they have to be a special case. They work fine
if the game is geared to support their roleplaying limitations any other
time they are out of place.
Message no. 12
From: Duncan McNeillBurton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:08:56 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

> > Given to a decent role-player, I don't see why a 'shifter'd be so bad.
> > By 'decent role-player' I mean somebody who won't turn the creature
> > into
> > a 'killing machine.'
> >
> Given to a decent role player a tac nuke is no big deal.
> Its just that most folk can't resist munching on the power.

any use of nuclear wepoans is pretty much munchy, unless it's hanging over
the fireplace to impress guests.

> > There really doesn't seem to be much reason for a
> > 'shifter to spend a really extended period of time in a city, like
> > Nexx
> > said. Take Striper from 'To Hunt the Hunter.' She went to get her
> > cub,
> > and spent as little time as possible doing it and then getting out. A
> > werewhatever more than likely just won't see the need to stay in the
> > sprawl, unless the circumstances are really wierd.
> >
> OK, so why would they be in a shadowrun team?

Because the team's objectives are in the best interest of the shaper's
totem, or itself. Or maybe he's learned that these gorups of humans eat
without having to hunt, and likes the convenience.

Later-
Duncan
Message no. 13
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:11:48 -0500
----------
> From: Duncan McNeillBurton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
> > OK, so why would they be in a shadowrun team?
>
> Because the team's objectives are in the best interest of the shaper's
> totem, or itself. Or maybe he's learned that these gorups of humans eat
> without having to hunt, and likes the convenience.
>
> Later-
> Duncan

Especially when someone else buys dinner <g>

Bishop
Message no. 14
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:37:56 -0400
David Foster wrote:
>
> Ecological terrorism? (In a NAN campaign) Magically adept group
> member? Hmm... if all the players were Shapeshifters, a "Call of the
> Wild" campaign? ]:-)

Ohhhhh.... Okay. I was confused at first, but now I get it: you want to
play _Werewolf._ >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 15
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:37:26 -0400
> > > Given to a decent role-player, I don't see why a 'shifter'd be so
> bad.
> > > By 'decent role-player' I mean somebody who won't turn the
> creature
> > > into
> > > a 'killing machine.'
> > >
> > Given to a decent role player a tac nuke is no big
> deal.
> > Its just that most folk can't resist munching on the power.
>
> any use of nuclear wepoans is pretty much munchy, unless it's hanging
> over
> the fireplace to impress guests.
>
<Foghorn>

Ah, ah say that's a joke son! Sarcasm!

(Boy's about as sharp as a bag a wet mice.)

</Foghorn>

> > > There really doesn't seem to be much reason for a
> > > 'shifter to spend a really extended period of time in a city, like
> > > Nexx
> > > said. Take Striper from 'To Hunt the Hunter.' She went to get
> her
> > > cub,
> > > and spent as little time as possible doing it and then getting
> out. A
> > > werewhatever more than likely just won't see the need to stay in
> the
> > > sprawl, unless the circumstances are really wierd.
> > >
> > OK, so why would they be in a shadowrun team?
>
> Because the team's objectives are in the best interest of the shaper's
> totem, or itself. Or maybe he's learned that these gorups of humans
> eat
> without having to hunt, and likes the convenience.
>
Then you are ignoring the original point that shapers
aren't inclined to stay in the city. The whole point was that the two
are mutually exclusive.

The very fact that we have to discuss this much to get a
decent reason to put them in means they aren't worth it. They'd be GREAT
as a guest appearance (GM's buddy is gonna stop by for one session). But
as a regular player...just doesn't work.
Message no. 16
From: Duncan McNeillBurton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:58:46 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

> > > > Given to a decent role-player, I don't see why a 'shifter'd be so
> > bad.
> > > > By 'decent role-player' I mean somebody who won't turn the
> > creature
> > > > into
> > > > a 'killing machine.'
> > > >
> > > Given to a decent role player a tac nuke is no big
> > deal.
> > > Its just that most folk can't resist munching on the power.
> >
> > any use of nuclear wepoans is pretty much munchy, unless it's hanging
> > over
> > the fireplace to impress guests.
> >
> <Foghorn>
>
> Ah, ah say that's a joke son! Sarcasm!
>
> (Boy's about as sharp as a bag a wet mice.)
>
> </Foghorn>

Mice have really sharp teeth... :) But in all seriousness, I understood
this, and was kiding as well. I thought mentioning impressing guests
witha weapon of mass destruction would serve the same purpose as adding a
smiley.

> > > > There really doesn't seem to be much reason for a
> > > > 'shifter to spend a really extended period of time in a city, like
> > > > Nexx
> > > > said. Take Striper from 'To Hunt the Hunter.' She went to get
> > her
> > > > cub,
> > > > and spent as little time as possible doing it and then getting
> > out. A
> > > > werewhatever more than likely just won't see the need to stay in
> > the
> > > > sprawl, unless the circumstances are really wierd.
> > > >
> > > OK, so why would they be in a shadowrun team?
> >
> > Because the team's objectives are in the best interest of the shaper's
> > totem, or itself. Or maybe he's learned that these gorups of humans
> > eat
> > without having to hunt, and likes the convenience.
> >
> Then you are ignoring the original point that shapers
> aren't inclined to stay in the city. The whole point was that the two
> are mutually exclusive.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm suggesting a possible special case to explain
it. Technically I'm even borrowing the case, but who's counting.

> The very fact that we have to discuss this much to get a
> decent reason to put them in means they aren't worth it. They'd be GREAT
> as a guest appearance (GM's buddy is gonna stop by for one session). But
> as a regular player...just doesn't work.

I don't know...if you assemble a strange enough group under equally
strange circumstances, the shapeshifter might even seem normal. But I
guess that falls into teh special circumstances rule.

*shrug*

oh, well...back to killing time trying to figure out the best way to
reroute printer and intercom wires for eight different computers, three
printers, five intercoms, and three scanners.

Later-
Duncan
Message no. 17
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:13:41 -0400
> > <Foghorn>
> >
> > Ah, ah say that's a joke son! Sarcasm!
> >
> > (Boy's about as sharp as a bag a wet mice.)
> >
> > </Foghorn>
>
> Mice have really sharp teeth... :) But in all seriousness, I
> understood
> this, and was kiding as well. I thought mentioning impressing guests
> witha weapon of mass destruction would serve the same purpose as
> adding a
> smiley.
>
Oh I know...just havin fun. Actually you know, I paused
thinking about the mice's teeth and claws when I wrote this...:)

<snip>
> > The very fact that we have to discuss this much to
> get a
> > decent reason to put them in means they aren't worth it. They'd be
> GREAT
> > as a guest appearance (GM's buddy is gonna stop by for one session).
> But
> > as a regular player...just doesn't work.
>
> I don't know...if you assemble a strange enough group under equally
> strange circumstances, the shapeshifter might even seem normal. But I
> guess that falls into teh special circumstances rule.
>
I dunno. I just don't like em. I like to have normal
folks I my games but everything is a GM call in the end.

> oh, well...back to killing time trying to figure out the best way to
> reroute printer and intercom wires for eight different computers,
> three
> printers, five intercoms, and three scanners.
>
Speaking of special circumstances...
Message no. 18
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:48:24 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Steve Eley wrote:

->David Foster wrote:
->>
->> Ecological terrorism? (In a NAN campaign) Magically adept group
->> member? Hmm... if all the players were Shapeshifters, a "Call of the
->> Wild" campaign? ]:-)
->
->Ohhhhh.... Okay. I was confused at first, but now I get it: you want to
->play _Werewolf._ >8->

Yuk.... that'd mean more books and a whole new set of rules....
naw. I'll have to deal with that when I get SR3 anyways... ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 19
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:45:18 -0500
----------
> From: Duncan McNeillBurton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
> > Then you are ignoring the original point that shapers
> > aren't inclined to stay in the city. The whole point was that the two
> > are mutually exclusive.
>
> I'm not ignoring it. I'm suggesting a possible special case to explain
> it. Technically I'm even borrowing the case, but who's counting.

Me, for one <g>. However, Duncan is right in this case. The allure of
not having to hunt for food is going to catch many shapeshifters for a
time... though they're likely to grow tired of it. After all, they'll
miss the thrill, feel themselves slipping out of shape (wolves, for
example, have to be treated very carefully when taken into captivity,
because if you give them a large amount of food, they'll eat till the get
sick, not knowing that things will always be like this). Sentient wolves
might also have some ethical problems with it, especially (in the case
that Duncan is borrowing) if they follow Wolf. Wolf is a hunter. Eating
foods in the way the man-things is fine for his followers amongst the
man-things, but not for his most favored Children.

> > The very fact that we have to discuss this much to get
a
> > decent reason to put them in means they aren't worth it. They'd be
GREAT
> > as a guest appearance (GM's buddy is gonna stop by for one session).
But
> > as a regular player...just doesn't work.
>
> I don't know...if you assemble a strange enough group under equally
> strange circumstances, the shapeshifter might even seem normal. But I
> guess that falls into teh special circumstances rule.

After all, compared to (for example) an amnesiac rigger worth more than
the GDP of a small country, a sociopathic elven former company man, a 16
year old Phoenix shaman followed around by one of her ancestors, a samurai
with a sword fetish and a physical adept with no soul... he seems damn
near normal.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
"The Kelti said of themselves that they did not lie, but they sometimes
took a very long way around in getting to the truth, with frequent stops
at interesting spots along the way."
-Morgan Llywelyn "The Horse Goddess"
Message no. 20
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:56:29 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

-> Then you are ignoring the original point that shapers
->aren't inclined to stay in the city. The whole point was that the two
->are mutually exclusive.
->
-> The very fact that we have to discuss this much to get a
->decent reason to put them in means they aren't worth it. They'd be GREAT
->as a guest appearance (GM's buddy is gonna stop by for one session). But
->as a regular player...just doesn't work.

Hmmm.... Shapeshifter Raccoons would stay in the city,
Shapeshifter Rats, Shapeshifter Dogs.... I suppose those sorts of
Shapeshifters would be more "acceptable" to an urban campaign. I don't
have SRComp handy or I'd see if these were in there. Probably not.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 21
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:01:13 -0400
> Me, for one <g>. However, Duncan is right in this case. The allure
> of
> not having to hunt for food is going to catch many shapeshifters for a
> time... though they're likely to grow tired of it. After all, they'll
> miss the thrill, feel themselves slipping out of shape (wolves, for
> example, have to be treated very carefully when taken into captivity,
> because if you give them a large amount of food, they'll eat till the
> get
> sick, not knowing that things will always be like this). Sentient
> wolves
> might also have some ethical problems with it, especially (in the case
> that Duncan is borrowing) if they follow Wolf. Wolf is a hunter.
> Eating
> foods in the way the man-things is fine for his followers amongst the
> man-things, but not for his most favored Children.
>
I would think all the other problems of the city would
make this less than likely. You have smog, acid rain, unending noise,
planes flying over, etc and the food is probably gonna taste REALLY
nasty to a were anyway. Think about it, you can have fresh (as in still
bleeding) venison or NutriSoy Sloppy Joes with extra HandyCheez. Your
choice.

> > I don't know...if you assemble a strange enough group under equally
> > strange circumstances, the shapeshifter might even seem normal. But
> I
> > guess that falls into teh special circumstances rule.
>
> After all, compared to (for example) an amnesiac rigger worth more
> than
> the GDP of a small country, a sociopathic elven former company man, a
> 16
> year old Phoenix shaman followed around by one of her ancestors, a
> samurai
> with a sword fetish and a physical adept with no soul... he seems damn
> near normal.
>
I don't have a problem with their oddity, just that for
all the power they have they would never willingly stay.
Message no. 22
From: Gabriel Birke <GorbiMail@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:37:28 +0200
David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US> wrote:



> Hmmm.... Shapeshifter Raccoons would stay in the city,
>Shapeshifter Rats, Shapeshifter Dogs.... I suppose those sorts of
>Shapeshifters would be more "acceptable" to an urban campaign. I don't
>have SRComp handy or I'd see if these were in there. Probably not.


Thinking of Wererats: how big are they? I always wondered if there could be
a shapeshifter with less mass than a human.
Thinking of dragons: Where do THEY put their mass when in human shape?
You could say "Hey, that's magic" but has anyone an explanation HOW magic
does the trick? Materia/energy-transformation?

Gorbi
Message no. 23
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:04:46 -0400
Gorbi didst sayeth:

>David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US> wrote:
>> Hmmm.... Shapeshifter Raccoons would stay in the city,
>>Shapeshifter Rats, Shapeshifter Dogs.... I suppose those sorts of
>>Shapeshifters would be more "acceptable" to an urban campaign. I don't
>>have SRComp handy or I'd see if these were in there. Probably not.
>
>Thinking of Wererats: how big are they? I always wondered if there could be
>a shapeshifter with less mass than a human.
>Thinking of dragons: Where do THEY put their mass when in human shape?
>You could say "Hey, that's magic" but has anyone an explanation HOW magic
>does the trick? Materia/energy-transformation?


I'd call it magic. However, since the aura always remains that of their
true animal self, wouldn't that cause some other problems in human form,
namely in the presence of others who are either dual natured or just
astrally active.

Case in point, when Dunkelzhan showed up for the Inaugural Ball with Daviar,
he was in human form, and they were mingling normally with the folks in the
crowd. Wouldn't this make for some serious problems if his aura is still
the size of a Great Dragon?

And another semirelated note, what would the Secret Service think about
being charged with defending the life of one of the most physically and
magically powerful beings on Earth? Particularly since he ended up dead.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 24
From: Matt T Ork <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:15:10 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:04:46 -0400 Duncan McNeill-Burton
<dmcneill@************.EDU> writes:

<snip astral stuff. I ain't got a clue. Happens a lot>
>And another semirelated note, what would the Secret Service think about
>being charged with defending the life of one of the most physically and
>magically powerful beings on Earth? Particularly since he ended up
>dead.

Racism is a big no-no with the Secret Service. Since your partner may be
black or white, etc, going down to th' weekly cross burnin's aren't
exactly conducive to productive behavior. Those assigned to the
President have the distinct duty to be a human shield. While some of
them may think that Dunky didn't *need* protection ("He's a great big
lizard who can throw fireballs, and he needs us in kevlar running
around?"), they'd protect him nonethless. It's their job.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"Protect HIM? Hah! He can protect ME lots better!"

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 25
From: David Blank <XRacer8654@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:22:55 EDT
In a message dated 8/25/98 1:43:59 PM Central Daylight Time,
bryan.covington@****.COM writes:

> Then you are ignoring the original point that shapers
> aren't inclined to stay in the city. The whole point was that the two
> are mutually exclusive.
>


And where else can they go? Except for the Awaken Nations like Siberia most of
the world is overran with meta humanity. Besides, if you check the Stripper
series there was the following Shapeshifters hunting in the shadows of the
city:

First was Steel/Castillano and his pack.
He then later in the series directed Stripper to yet another pack in another
city.
Then there was her mate.

This suggests that when all their natural habitat was "developed" the
shapeshifters like a lot of other animals learned how to make do in the city.
Message no. 26
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:44:32 EDT
In a message dated 8/25/98 2:48:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, GorbiMail@**
ONLINE.DE writes:

> You could say "Hey, that's magic" but has anyone an explanation HOW magic
> does the trick? Materia/energy-transformation?
assuming conservation of matter and energy, it just transforms mass into Mana,
or vice versa. As regards dragons, I always figured they had a spell Human
form (like critter form, only human :-)
Message no. 27
From: William Ashe <wmashe@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:18:45 -0700
>They have several disadvantages, like the bestial nature and no
>cyberware flaws. Admittedly, regeneration is really good, and a mage
>might get abusive if played long enough. Is the problem that the main
>penalty (has no idea how the world works) is a roleplaying problem?


The big disadvantage is their dual nature: want to screw up a shapeshifter
just slap a ward around him
(SR3 not withstanding)

Regards
Bright-Light
Message no. 28
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:19:32 -0400
Neil the Ork Barbaian ( <g> ) didst sayeth:

>On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:04:46 -0400 Duncan McNeill-Burton
><dmcneill@************.EDU> writes:
>
><snip astral stuff. I ain't got a clue. Happens a lot>
>>And another semirelated note, what would the Secret Service think about
>>being charged with defending the life of one of the most physically and
>>magically powerful beings on Earth? Particularly since he ended up
>>dead.
>
>Racism is a big no-no with the Secret Service. Since your partner may be
>black or white, etc, going down to th' weekly cross burnin's aren't
>exactly conducive to productive behavior. Those assigned to the
>President have the distinct duty to be a human shield. While some of
>them may think that Dunky didn't *need* protection ("He's a great big
>lizard who can throw fireballs, and he needs us in kevlar running
>around?"), they'd protect him nonethless. It's their job.


I wasn't referring to their problems with his being a dragon. I'm
referring to how silly they'd feel if someone rushed the First Wyrm with a
gun and they'd reflexively gone into the evacuation drills.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 29
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:09:56 EDT
In a message dated 8/25/98 7:27:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dmcneill@********
TECH.EDU writes:

>
> I wasn't referring to their problems with his being a dragon. I'm
> referring to how silly they'd feel if someone rushed the First Wyrm with a
> gun and they'd reflexively gone into the evacuation drills.
<picturing a small group of agents trying to "cover" a huge dragon, while
said
dragon's head is towering over them to see hwat is happening>
Message no. 30
From: Matt T Ork <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:17:21 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:19:32 -0400 Duncan McNeill-Burton
<dmcneill@************.EDU> writes:

>I wasn't referring to their problems with his being a dragon. I'm
>referring to how silly they'd feel if someone rushed the First Wyrm with
a
>gun and they'd reflexively gone into the evacuation drills.

It's all about image. I'm sure ol' Lofwyr lets his security forces take
care of any would-be wyrm-whackers, so why wouldn't Dunkelzahn let the
Secret Service do what they were trained for? He seemed to like making
the effort to do things like humans did in some respects. 'Course, if he
was in his natural form it would be kinda hard to do evac, though I'm
sure the Servicemen would still provide him cover with their own bodies.


-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"This way, Mr. President...yessir, we blew out a wall because we couldn't
get you through the kitchen in your dragon form...yessir..."

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 31
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 07:37:50 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Gabriel Birke wrote:

->David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US> wrote:
->
->> Hmmm.... Shapeshifter Raccoons would stay in the city,
->>Shapeshifter Rats, Shapeshifter Dogs.... I suppose those sorts of
->>Shapeshifters would be more "acceptable" to an urban campaign. I don't
->>have SRComp handy or I'd see if these were in there. Probably not.
->
->Thinking of Wererats: how big are they? I always wondered if there could be
->a shapeshifter with less mass than a human.
->Thinking of dragons: Where do THEY put their mass when in human shape?
->You could say "Hey, that's magic" but has anyone an explanation HOW magic
->does the trick? Materia/energy-transformation?

I made up a spell that transferred physical matter into astral
matter (still conserving energy, simply a different state). Perhaps
something along these lines could be happening magically. Which is why a
dragon looks like a dragon in the Astral (unless it's Masking).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 32
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:28:46 +0200
Michael vanHulst wrote:

> In a message dated 8/25/98 2:48:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, GorbiMail@**
> ONLINE.DE writes:
>
> > You could say "Hey, that's magic" but has anyone an explanation HOW
magic
> > does the trick? Materia/energy-transformation?
> assuming conservation of matter and energy, it just transforms mass into Mana,
> or vice versa. As regards dragons, I always figured they had a spell Human
> form (like critter form, only human :-)

But if a dragon would transform to human, but his aura staying the form of a
great dragon he wouldn't fit through the door of a wooden house...
Must look very strange for anybody passing by wouldn't see the reason for his not
fitting through the door.

Blix
Message no. 33
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:45:42 EDT
In a message dated 8/26/98 11:40:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, WiebkeT@**
ONLINE.DE writes:

> But if a dragon would transform to human, but his aura staying the form of a
> great dragon he wouldn't fit through the door of a wooden house...
> Must look very strange for anybody passing by wouldn't see the reason for
> his not
> fitting through the door.
note that this is no longer the case, since astral forms pass through living
forms now anyway.
I think dragons mask their astral forms so that they do not appear to be
dragons.
In regards to wards, I often wondered, did Dunk reflexivly break all the
wards that he passed through? Powerful enough, but... seems kinda wasteful. I
always thought masking should be able to actually turn off the astral part of
a dual, or at least the size would bear only on whatever formt hey currently
wore.
Message no. 34
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:29:03 -0700
><snip astral stuff. I ain't got a clue. Happens a lot>
>>And another semirelated note, what would the Secret Service think about
>>being charged with defending the life of one of the most physically and
>>magically powerful beings on Earth? Particularly since he ended up
>>dead.
>
>Racism is a big no-no with the Secret Service. Since your partner may be
>black or white, etc, going down to th' weekly cross burnin's aren't
>exactly conducive to productive behavior. Those assigned to the
>President have the distinct duty to be a human shield. While some of
>them may think that Dunky didn't *need* protection ("He's a great big
>lizard who can throw fireballs, and he needs us in kevlar running
>around?"), they'd protect him nonethless. It's their job.


The secret service personaell assigned to dignitary protection are NOT
just human shields. Prevention is 99.99...99 percent of the game. Dunkelzhan
still needs people doing that, for the same reason Loffwyre needs employees.
In many ways, the fact that he is a dragon makes their job harder; for one
thing, keeping his food supply safe would be a bitch...

Mongoose
Message no. 35
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:59:49 -0300
> The very fact that we have to discuss this much to get a
> decent reason to put them in means they aren't worth it. They'd be GREAT
> as a guest appearance (GM's buddy is gonna stop by for one session). But
> as a regular player...just doesn't work.


I scavenged some Whitw Wolf rules from a magazine here and managed
to come up with a workable set of shifters, more balanced, I guess, and
they just might work in SR3 too. Anyone wants them?

Bira
Message no. 36
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:43:42 -0500
----------
> From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
> > The very fact that we have to discuss this much to get
a
> > decent reason to put them in means they aren't worth it. They'd be
GREAT
> > as a guest appearance (GM's buddy is gonna stop by for one session).
But
> > as a regular player...just doesn't work.
>
> I scavenged some Whitw Wolf rules from a magazine here and managed
> to come up with a workable set of shifters, more balanced, I guess, and
> they just might work in SR3 too. Anyone wants them?
>
> Bira

Hit me, Bira. I've always liked things that change their shape...

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
"The Kelti said of themselves that they did not lie, but they sometimes
took a very long way around in getting to the truth, with frequent stops
at interesting spots along the way."
-Morgan Llywelyn "The Horse Goddess"
Message no. 37
From: Thomas Charron <thomascharron@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:02:10 PDT
One can NEVER have to much stuff.. zap 'em over.. Sounds neat..
Nothin like addin stuff people wouldn;t expect.. ;-P

> I scavenged some Whitw Wolf rules from a magazine here and managed
>to come up with a workable set of shifters, more balanced, I guess, and
>they just might work in SR3 too. Anyone wants them?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 38
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:42:42 EDT
In a message dated 8/25/98 10:56:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bryan.covington@****.COM writes:

> OK, so why would they be in a shadowrun team?

Anyone remember Castillano from some of the early Shadowrun stuff? He is a
fixer were-wolf with a bunch of shifter friends (Striper, other were's, etc.).
Why does he do it? Why does Striper do it?

For some it may be a way of fitting into a changed world. For others it could
the rush, the hunt, amusement. Make the character history interesting enough
you can come up with a number of reasons.

The big question is......why would the runners stick with a shapeshifter? Why
wouldn't they turn him in for a bounty (if there is one in the area your
characters exist in).

Once again you can come up with background and history, but the important
thing is that all the players and the GM should agree to allow shifters if
there is going to be one.

Because no matter how you color it they are pretty damn cool and can way
better then the other standard PCs.

However, if you are running a Russian campaign in Siberia then you might have
everyone in the group be a shapeshifter. Just an idea! :)

Otter
Message no. 39
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:46:57 EDT
In a message dated 8/25/98 12:40:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> Yuk.... that'd mean more books and a whole new set of rules....
> naw. I'll have to deal with that when I get SR3 anyways... ]:-)
>

Not really. When my website is up there will be rules for running what I call
"World of Shadows." (I know it's not original but I like it). In a nut shell
it will be rules for Wordl of Darkness/Shadowrun crossovers. You can check
that out and I'll let you know when it's done.

Otter
Message no. 40
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:29:29 +0200
Michael vanHulst wrote:

> note that this is no longer the case, since astral forms pass through living
> forms now anyway.

WHAT? Why should that be? I mean, it isn't logic, isn't it? So an astrally
projecting mage would be able to "fly" through people? That sounds really odd...

Blix
Message no. 41
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:43:24 EDT
In a message dated 8/27/98 8:22:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, WiebkeT@**
ONLINE.DE writes:

> WHAT? Why should that be? I mean, it isn't logic, isn't it? So an astrally
> projecting mage would be able to "fly" through people? That sounds really
> odd...

Yes they can, and the person they flew through would get a chance to detect
them.

-Bandit
Message no. 42
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:56:05 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Tim Burke
> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 11:11 PM
>
>
> The one and only shapeshifter our old GM allowed seemed
> to be pretty powerful and a balance breaker _until_ he hit a
> completely warded building. Ever see the funny looks you
> get when you're dual natured and try to cross a ward.
> Splat.

That's not how it would work though. At least not from an sr2 point
of view. I haven't seen sr3 yet, so I have no ideas if there are any
changes there. But the ward only stops purely astral objects, and can
have no effect on the physical. This means that the shaper can walk
right through the ward, and either gets through safely, or has his
aura ripped up by the ward. There is no 'invisible wall' type
syndrome though.

Unless of course you just mean he was splattered by the ward as
opposed to splattered against the ward. Oh well,

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 43
From: Tim Burke <ranger@********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:27:33 +1000
At 10:56 PM 27-08-98 +1000, you wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
>> Behalf Of Tim Burke
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 11:11 PM
>>
>>
>> The one and only shapeshifter our old GM allowed seemed
>> to be pretty powerful and a balance breaker _until_ he hit a
>> completely warded building. Ever see the funny looks you
>> get when you're dual natured and try to cross a ward.
>> Splat.
>
>That's not how it would work though. At least not from an sr2 point
>of view. I haven't seen sr3 yet, so I have no ideas if there are any
>changes there. But the ward only stops purely astral objects, and can
>have no effect on the physical.

Absolutely correct there. However by their very nature dual natured
beings have a constant presence on the astral. It's this that stops
the shapeshifter from crossing the warded area in the physical.
The physical is bound by the limitations on the astral in that he
was a phys adept and could only perceive.

SR Comp p.37 "magical barriers such as wards block the movement
of shapeshifters' astral forms; and the movement of their astral
form is limited by the movement of their physical bodies."
Thus the splat. Regardless of that however he was a big Vegas
sized neon in the astral saying
"G-R-O-U-N-D Y-O-U-R S-P-E-L-L H-E-R-E >>>>"

>This means that the shaper can walk
>right through the ward, and either gets through safely, or has his
>aura ripped up by the ward. There is no 'invisible wall' type
>syndrome though.

Then by that rationale all a spirit would have to do to cross a
ward would be to manifest and walk right through. This pretty
much defeats the intended purpose of warding the place.
As for getting your aura ripped up by an astral food processor
urrghhh sounds messy. I imagine that would have to hurt.

>Unless of course you just mean he was splattered by the ward as
>opposed to splattered against the ward. Oh well,
>
>NightRain.
>

The entire issue about shapeshifters I suppose is moot
in my game because they simply are _not_ an option
for a PC. I hate them.

Tim Burke
ranger@********.com.au
- who desperately needs a cool street name
Message no. 44
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:56:43 +0000
NightRain wrote:

> > The one and only shapeshifter our old GM allowed seemed
> > to be pretty powerful and a balance breaker _until_ he hit a
> > completely warded building. Ever see the funny looks you
> > get when you're dual natured and try to cross a ward.
> > Splat.
>
> That's not how it would work though. At least not from an sr2 point
> of view. I haven't seen sr3 yet, so I have no ideas if there are any
> changes there. But the ward only stops purely astral objects, and can
> have no effect on the physical. This means that the shaper can walk
> right through the ward, and either gets through safely, or has his
> aura ripped up by the ward. There is no 'invisible wall' type
> syndrome though.

Sure there would be...well it wouldn't be invisible to the shifter
because they are dual planer, but a ward would definitely stop one. A
ward will attempt to stop anything moving through astral space, it really
doesn't care if you happen to be on the physical plane as well.

Caric
Message no. 45
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:11:43 EDT
In a message dated 8/27/1998 7:58:03 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU writes:

<snipped silly comments about shapers splatting against a Ward>

> That's not how it would work though. At least not from an sr2 point
> of view. I haven't seen sr3 yet, so I have no ideas if there are any
> changes there. But the ward only stops purely astral objects, and can
> have no effect on the physical. This means that the shaper can walk
> right through the ward, and either gets through safely, or has his
> aura ripped up by the ward. There is no 'invisible wall' type
> syndrome though.
>
> Unless of course you just mean he was splattered by the ward as
> opposed to splattered against the ward. Oh well,
>
Okay Rob, I'm gonna bite this one. Where on Earth did you get that idea
concerning Dual Natured critters (and the like) where a Ward was concerned????
The Ward -does- stop said beings as well, as they are restricted by not one,
but two sets of universal constants.

-K
Message no. 46
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:57:01 -0500
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:10:05 -0400 David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
writes:
>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Michael vanHulst wrote:
>
>->In a message dated 8/26/98 11:40:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
WiebkeT@**
>->ONLINE.DE writes:
>-> I think dragons mask their astral forms so that they do not appear
to be
>->dragons.
>-> In regards to wards, I often wondered, did Dunk reflexivly break all
the
>->wards that he passed through? Powerful enough, but... seems kinda
wasteful.
>->I
>->always thought masking should be able to actually turn off the astral
part
>->of
>->a dual, or at least the size would bear only on whatever formt hey
currently
>->wore.

> Hmmmm.... Dual creatures being able to actively able to turn off
>their Dual image. This is one of those areas where: if you say yes,
you
>take away part of the difficulty of playing a dual being (My
>Homemade Highlander Immortals, Shapeshifters, etc.). But on the other
>hand, you have to be able to explain (at least to yourself) how a dragon
>can walk out of a warded building or area without destroying the Ward.
> Sounds like a great place for input, folks. Opinions?
>
>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
<SNIP Sig>

Hmmm... I don't like it. :) Lowfyr could have all the S-K wards attuned
so he can pass freely perhaps. (IFF this can be done without providing a
ritual link to him to his magicians.) Another option is to say that
Masking is capable of spoofing wards (remember Lowfyr & Dunk are pretty
high grade Intiates). Perhaps an opposed to test (Masking versus Ward
rating)? I have the odd feeling that something like this is already
included in SR ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 47
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:02:09 +1000
> > Hmmmm.... Dual creatures being able to actively able to turn
> off
> >their Dual image. This is one of those areas where: if you say yes,
> you
> >take away part of the difficulty of playing a dual being (My
> >Homemade Highlander Immortals, Shapeshifters, etc.). But on the
> other
> >hand, you have to be able to explain (at least to yourself) how a
> dragon
> >can walk out of a warded building or area without destroying the
> Ward.
> > Sounds like a great place for input, folks. Opinions?
> >
> >Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
> <SNIP Sig>
>
> Hmmm... I don't like it. :) Lowfyr could have all the S-K wards
> attuned
> so he can pass freely perhaps. (IFF this can be done without providing
> a
> ritual link to him to his magicians.) Another option is to say that
> Masking is capable of spoofing wards (remember Lowfyr & Dunk are
> pretty
> high grade Intiates). Perhaps an opposed to test (Masking versus Ward
> rating)? I have the odd feeling that something like this is already
> included in SR ...
>
> D. Ghost
> (aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
> o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`
>
I believe you're thinking of 'phasing'. As described in Awakenings, if
an initiate can succeed in some kind of test versus the ward's rating
(you can see I use this rule a lot :) ), he can pass through the ward as
if it didn't exist for him - but only for him. He doesn't 'open a hole'
which would allow others to pass through.

Does that explain it?

Doc'
Message no. 48
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifters: Why so maligned?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:50:52 +0200
M. Sean Martinez wrote:

> Yes they can, and the person they flew through would get a chance to detect
> them.
>

Well, I don't like that rule - but I'll wait 'till I get SR3 before I damn it
;-)
Blix

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