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Message no. 1
From: Bob Tockley <arkhams.asylum@**.NET.AU>
Subject: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 03:06:36 +1100
This has probably already been posted sometime before, but I'm gonna
bring it up again (or for the first time) anyway...
Under what circumstances does a shockglove/weapon discharge and where are
the discharge/contact surfaces located. It makes sense that it'd discharge
on impact, right? But apparently you can do 'touch' type attacks with the
shockglove as well as punching with it, so the impact doesn't need to be
-that- hard at all (or so it seems). Which leads to the problem of
discharging on accidental contact (which is not something I wanna think
about) and the question of where exactly the discharge/contact surfaces are
located. I mean, are there contacts on the palm and on the bottom of the
fingers? If so, can you pick stuff up without discharging the glove? Go
on, answer the question... you know you want to.

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."

ARKHAM'S ASYLUM ( http://www.uq.net.au/~zzdeden/shadowrun/ )
Message no. 2
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:00:25 -0500
Quoting Bob Tockley (arkhams.asylum@**.NET.AU):
> Under what circumstances does a shockglove/weapon discharge and where are
> the discharge/contact surfaces located. It makes sense that it'd discharge
> on impact, right? But apparently you can do 'touch' type attacks with the
> shockglove as well as punching with it, so the impact doesn't need to be
> -that- hard at all (or so it seems). Which leads to the problem of
> discharging on accidental contact (which is not something I wanna think
> about) and the question of where exactly the discharge/contact surfaces are
> located. I mean, are there contacts on the palm and on the bottom of the
> fingers? If so, can you pick stuff up without discharging the glove? Go
> on, answer the question... you know you want to.

Hmm. Okay, if I were designing one of these, I'd want to be able to
strike with the palm as well as the knuckles, because in the sorts of
situations police would be using them (pretending those are your intended
customers - they and security guards), being able to stun with a touch
would be good sometimes. Punching someone always makes you look bad.
However, you'd also want to be damn sure that it'd never go off accidentally.
So there'd have to be a trigger switch of some sort that enables the shock
points.
I'd put the shock points on the knuckes and on the palm, and have
two triggers: the trigger for the knuckles on the front of the second bone
in the index finger, where you could press it with your thumb while
making a fist, and the trigger for the palm on the side of the knuckle
of the index finger, where you could press it with your thumb while
your hand is open with all of the fingers together. If those descriptions
don't make sense, just try punching and slapping, and look where your thumb
is :)

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 3
From: Marcel Emami <rab@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:17:40 +0100
ARKHAM wrote
> on impact, right? But apparently you can do 'touch' type attacks with the
> shockglove as well as punching with it, so the impact doesn't need to be
wasn't there a rule (buried deep in the Grimything I (Spell death touch),
that to touch
someone you make an Unarmed combat test with a -2 TN# ?.
Because it is much more easy to push some one than to Strike someone with
all your might.
If that is so I would apply this TN# modifier to shock gloves as well.

Kruss und Guss
Rab
E-mail: Rab@***.informatik.uni-mannheim.de
WWW : http://fim.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/~rab
GeekCode 3.0:
GM d-(+) s: a- C+(+++) U+ P? L>+ N K? w+$ o-->++ M V? PS+(++) PE-(--)
Y@ PGP@ t-(---) 5++ X@ R+++>$ tv+ b++ DI D++ G+
e+ h r+ y+
Message no. 4
From: Marcel Emami <rab@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:21:35 +0100
--Sean wrote
> your hand is open with all of the fingers together. If those descriptions
> don't make sense, just try punching and slapping, and look where your thumb
> is :)
I tried it, an now I have to type all with m y left hand only. One of us
both must had disfiguered :) hands, Oh excuse me. Someone of us must be
hand challengend.
That one with the fist trigger I belief and worked, but that one with the
triggering whern you strike with your hand, ... .



Kruss und Guss
Rab
E-mail: Rab@***.informatik.uni-mannheim.de
WWW : http://fim.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/~rab
GeekCode 3.0:
GM d-(+) s: a- C+(+++) U+ P? L>+ N K? w+$ o-->++ M V? PS+(++) PE-(--)
Y@ PGP@ t-(---) 5++ X@ R+++>$ tv+ b++ DI D++ G+
e+ h r+ y+
Message no. 5
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:31:01 -0500
Quoting Marcel Emami (rab@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE):
> > your hand is open with all of the fingers together. If those descriptions
> > don't make sense, just try punching and slapping, and look where your thumb
> > is :)
> I tried it, an now I have to type all with m y left hand only. One of us
> both must had disfiguered :) hands, Oh excuse me. Someone of us must be
> hand challengend.
> That one with the fist trigger I belief and worked, but that one with the
> triggering whern you strike with your hand, ... .

Okay, let me try again, then :)

Lay your hand flat on a table, palm down, with all of your fingers
together. Squeeze your thumb against the side of your hand. Put the trigger
where you're pushing.
Make a fist (a good one, with the thumb not inside the rest of
your fingers). Squeeze your thumb in against the fist. Put a trigger there,
too.

That ought to be more clear...I didn't word it too well the first
time.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 6
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 06:31:19 -0600
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:17:40 +0100 Marcel Emami
<rab@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE> writes:
>ARKHAM wrote
>> on impact, right? But apparently you can do 'touch' type attacks with
the
>> shockglove as well as punching with it, so the impact doesn't need to
be

>wasn't there a rule (buried deep in the Grimything I (Spell death
touch),
>that to touch
>someone you make an Unarmed combat test with a -2 TN# ?.
>Because it is much more easy to push some one than to Strike someone
with
>all your might.
>If that is so I would apply this TN# modifier to shock gloves as well.

That assumes that the Shock glove delivers a 6S shock on its own and
doesn't augment the impact of punch. Of course if it really and truely
augemented the impact of a punch, the power would be strength dependant
(like [Str/2+4]S). Something else to take into account: Shock gloves
impede normal strikes. This means there has to be something
(Discargers?) covering the most common strike points (Knuckles, palm
heels, etc ...). Then again, wearing shock gloves also impedes kicking
... ;)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 7
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:03:53 -0500
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Marcel Emami wrote:

-> --Sean wrote
->> your hand is open with all of the fingers together. If those descriptions
->> don't make sense, just try punching and slapping, and look where your thumb
->> is :)
->I tried it, an now I have to type all with m y left hand only. One of us
->both must had disfiguered :) hands, Oh excuse me. Someone of us must be
->hand challengend.
->That one with the fist trigger I belief and worked, but that one with the
->triggering whern you strike with your hand, ... .

It worked for me. I suppose if you ball up your fist with your
thumb on the side facing your opponent, that wouldn't work for you (but
you'll break your thumb every time you hit someone). Try putting the
thumb on the 'bottom' of your fist and you'll notice it reaches your 2nd
bone of your index fingers (and in my case, the 2nd bone of my middle &
ring fingers, but I have huge hands).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 8
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:12:25 -0800
> Make a fist (a good one, with the thumb not inside the rest of
>your fingers). Squeeze your thumb in against the fist. Put a trigger there,
>too.

Just put the trigger on the inside edge of the thumb and that will handle
both situations, with less circuitry/moving parts.

> --Sean
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 9
From: David Cordy <DCordy@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:14:38 -0800
> This has probably already been posted sometime before, but I'm gonna
> bring it up again (or for the first time) anyway...
> Under what circumstances does a shockglove/weapon discharge and where
> are
> the discharge/contact surfaces located. It makes sense that it'd
> discharge
> on impact, right? But apparently you can do 'touch' type attacks with the
> shockglove as well as punching with it, so the impact doesn't need to be
> -that- hard at all (or so it seems). Which leads to the problem of
> discharging on accidental contact (which is not something I wanna think
> about) and the question of where exactly the discharge/contact surfaces
> are
> located. I mean, are there contacts on the palm and on the bottom of the
> fingers? If so, can you pick stuff up without discharging the glove? Go
> on, answer the question... you know you want to.
>
>
I would say that the palm contacts would be located at the pad where the
thumb joins the hand, the pad opposite that by the wrist, and maybe four
small ones or a stripe right below where the fingers join on the palm. This
would allow for a good grip shock, with lots of surface area. As for the
punch activation. I would have it so a circuit has to be completed.
Basically, when you make a fist, your fingers curl, and make contact with a
strip that would be located about mid palm.

I hope that makes sense.

-David
Message no. 10
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:05:57 -0600
> Just put the trigger on the inside edge of the thumb and that will handle
> both situations, with less circuitry/moving parts.

Having the trigger in two points has an additional advantage over just
putting it on the thumb. Basically, I'd imagine that the safest way to do
this is to make it so that *only* the thumb may engage the trigger. (I guess
it would be like two contact pads, that when pressed together with a certain
amount of pressure, would complete the circuit).



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
(A fan of efficient, non-lethal weaponry in shadowrun).
Message no. 11
From: Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:20:24 -0600
On 10/26/98, at 1:09 PM, Adam Getchell wrote:

>Just put the trigger on the inside edge of the thumb and that will handle
>both situations, with less circuitry/moving parts.

Actually, for safety, you could make it contact-only in the same spot.
I.E.
the thumb contacting the index finger at that certain spot would allow the
glove
to "charge" as such, but breaking the contact lets you "discharge" the
glove quickly
if necessary.


Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."
Message no. 12
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:45:00 -0600
:wasn't there a rule (buried deep in the Grimything I (Spell death touch),

Its not so deaply buried; its in the SR2 + Sr3 section on spell
ranges. It may be in the mlee combat sections also.

:that to touch
:someone you make an Unarmed combat test with a -2 TN# ?.
:Because it is much more easy to push some one than to Strike someone with
:all your might.
:If that is so I would apply this TN# modifier to shock gloves as well.

I would not recomend that; effective use of a shock weapon requires
solid and extended contact (manufactures provide time / efect stats,
usually in the 1 sec range for "completely disabled"). A "touch" will
not
suffice to do more than distract (it may cause involuntary flinching, but
a -2 tn is far to good for an already powerful weapon).

Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:50:41 -0600
:That assumes that the Shock glove delivers a 6S shock on its own and
:doesn't augment the impact of punch. Of course if it really and truely
:augemented the impact of a punch, the power would be strength dependant
:(like [Str/2+4]S). Something else to take into account: Shock gloves
:impede normal strikes. This means there has to be something
:(Discargers?) covering the most common strike points (Knuckles, palm
:heels, etc ...). Then again, wearing shock gloves also impedes kicking
:... ;)



They impede strikes because they require a GRASP (tazers take longer
contact than a single strike to be effective). Not that a lot of
(skilled) holds don't do nasty damage themselves... Wearing shock gloves
also still allows a normal attack- you don't HAVE to go for the shock.

Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:13:23 -0500
Quoting Adam Getchell (acgetchell@*******.EDU):
> > Make a fist (a good one, with the thumb not inside the rest of
> >your fingers). Squeeze your thumb in against the fist. Put a trigger there,
> >too.
> Just put the trigger on the inside edge of the thumb and that will handle
> both situations, with less circuitry/moving parts.

But the inside edge of the thumb is used to grip things, in some
positions, and you wouldn't want it triggering by accident. Actually,
I like the idea someone proposed, of having the trigger require contact
between something on the thumb and something elsewhere, making it almost
impossible to trigger it by accident.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 15
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 21:43:36 -0600
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:12:25 -0800 Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
writes:
>> Make a fist (a good one, with the thumb not inside the rest of
>>your fingers). Squeeze your thumb in against the fist. Put a trigger
>there,
>>too.

>Just put the trigger on the inside edge of the thumb and that will
>handle
>both situations, with less circuitry/moving parts.

>> --Sean

Uhm, Adam. Why not use impact triggers? That would solve the problem
AND ellimate any need for timing on the user's part (in so far as
thumb-twitching is concerned.). Or do you mean to turn on the gloves?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 16
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:19:51 -0600
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:50:41 -0600 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
writes:
<SNIP>
>Something else to take into account: Shock gloves
>:impede normal strikes. This means there has to be something
>:(Discargers?) covering the most common strike points (Knuckles, palm
>:heels, etc ...). Then again, wearing shock gloves also impedes kicking
>:... ;)



> They impede strikes because they require a GRASP (tazers take longer
>contact than a single strike to be effective). Not that a lot of
>(skilled) holds don't do nasty damage themselves... Wearing shock
gloves
>also still allows a normal attack- you don't HAVE to go for the shock.

Actually, in SSC it says punching (I thought it said Unarmed combat but I
just found my SSC) Shock Gloves does (Str-1)M damage.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Message no. 17
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 03:13:00 -0600
> Uhm, Adam. Why not use impact triggers? That would solve the problem
> AND ellimate any need for timing on the user's part (in so far as
> thumb-twitching is concerned.). Or do you mean to turn on the gloves?

Why not? Because some twisted people (like myself <grin>) want to be able to
use it with a handshake, or some other discrete fashion.

Here's a semi-relevant movie reference:

In Casino, a character in DeNiro's casino is assisting someone playing
Blackjack (by signaling the dealer's hole card to the person actually
playing the game). One of the security people discreetly taps him with a
cattle prod. The victim is dragged away, presumably as a result of a heart
attack. Various mischief ensues out of the eye of the public.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 18
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 03:21:46 -0600
> Actually, in SSC it says punching (I thought it said Unarmed combat but I
> just found my SSC) Shock Gloves does (Str-1)M damage.

But it doesn't also say that the shock damage ALSO occurs. (If I remember
correctly). Personally, I like the idea of punching someone with the gloves,
and doing both impact and shock damage).

Imagine this... someone develops a variant of cyber-weaponry combat skills
that incorporates a punch combined with a spur attack. (Basically, I'd think
that your spurs would have to be actually designed to work in tandem with
your fist). Now, strap a pair of Shock Gloves on 'em.

Punch: (STR-1)M
Spurs: (STR)M
Shock: 7S Stun
Combine them all together for a fun little tap on your neighbor's kidneys.
Hey, it's munchkin, but it's fun!

whoah...SR3 appears to agree with me (as far as combining the punch with the
shock)... p122 Shock Glove: (STR-1)M + 7S Stun


-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:54:54 +0100
According to Marcel Emami, at 13:17 on 26 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> wasn't there a rule (buried deep in the Grimything I (Spell death
> touch), that to touch someone you make an Unarmed combat test with a -2
> TN# ?. Because it is much more easy to push some one than to Strike
> someone with all your might. If that is so I would apply this TN#
> modifier to shock gloves as well.

In the Grimoire it states that to cast a Touch-range spell against an
unwilling target, you need to make an Unarmed Combat skill test with a -1
modifier due to only having to touch the aura, not the person attached to
it. In SR3 this has been revised to an unmodified Unarmed Combat test,
though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Carsten Baermann <Carsten.Baermann@****.UNI-GIESSEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:21:07 +0100
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Gurth wrote:

> In the Grimoire it states that to cast a Touch-range spell against an
> unwilling target, you need to make an Unarmed Combat skill test with a -1
> modifier due to only having to touch the aura, not the person attached to
> it. In SR3 this has been revised to an unmodified Unarmed Combat test,
> though.

From what I remember reading SR3 (German), the -1 modifier for
Touch-ranged spells still exists. I read the Magic section yesterday and
think the rule was somewhere in there. But I will make sure of this and
read the section again when I get home from university.

Bye,
########### Carsten Baermann - http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gcg4 ##########
# carsten.baermann@****.uni-giessen.de - case@**********.uni-giessen.de #
########## finger gcg4@**.hrz.uni-giessen.de for PGP Public Key #########

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
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PS+ PE+ Y+ PGP+ t++@ 5- X R+(++) tv- b++(+++) DI- D G+(++) e(*) h! r- y?
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 21
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:21:09 +0100
And so it came to happen that Carsten Baermann wrote in reply to
Gurth:
>
> On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Gurth wrote:
>
> > In the Grimoire it states that to cast a Touch-range spell against an
> > unwilling target, you need to make an Unarmed Combat skill test with a -1
> > modifier due to only having to touch the aura, not the person attached to
> > it. In SR3 this has been revised to an unmodified Unarmed Combat test,
> > though.

I do think Modifiers aply. As long as you not meant the old -1
modifier out of Grimoire
SR3rd. states on Page 183 1st. column, 3rd. Paragraph "...The unarmed
Combat Test to touch the target, however is subject to normal melee
modifiers..."
Does it contradict it the above statement somewhere else in SR3rd.?

> >From what I remember reading SR3 (German), the -1 modifier for
> Touch-ranged spells still exists. I read the Magic section yesterday and
> think the rule was somewhere in there. But I will make sure of this and
> read the section again when I get home from university.

Seems the same in the german translation on page 183. If there is
another entry that contradicts I havent found so far.

--
---> Steadfast
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Ger. BABY...
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shockgloves and other fun weaponry
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:43:26 +0100
According to Carsten Baermann, at 11:21 on 27 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> From what I remember reading SR3 (German), the -1 modifier for
> Touch-ranged spells still exists. I read the Magic section yesterday and
> think the rule was somewhere in there. But I will make sure of this and
> read the section again when I get home from university.

Yes, you're right -- I misremembered the text. Instead of saying you need
to touch the _aura_, SR3 says you only need to touch the _target_, thus
you get a -1 TN modifier. It was the word "aura" that was left out, not
the -1 modifier as I thought.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Further Reading

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