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Message no. 1
From: Joseph Casey CS91 <jcasey@**.STRATH.AC.UK>
Subject: Shooting in hand-to-hand
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 16:06:59 +0000
After some recent battle where the players have tried to use their
guns while engaged in melee-combat I find a few questions arising as to exactly
how these situations should best be handled.

If someone has been attacked in melee combat by another model and then
they try to use their firearm to shoot as with ranged combat, what modifiers
should apply to their shot if they are allowed to shoot at all.
Do they suffer the +2 modifier as with shooting out of unarmed combat?
Do they get a bonus for being at point blank range?
Does the defending model get to block against the shot? If so what do
they roll against and what modifiers apply?

Also ,If a mage tries to cast a physical damage spell into a close combat
does he risk hitting his team-mate or does he target the enemy model's aura or
something and are there modifiers for the enemy being partially covered by his
team-mate?

Help please,
cheers,
Jo.
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Shooting in hand-to-hand
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:17:46 +0930
Joseph Casey CS91 wrote:
>
> After some recent battle where the players have tried to use their
> guns while engaged in melee-combat I find a few questions arising as to exactly
> how these situations should best be handled.
>
> If someone has been attacked in melee combat by another model and then
> they try to use their firearm to shoot as with ranged combat, what modifiers
> should apply to their shot if they are allowed to shoot at all.
> Do they suffer the +2 modifier as with shooting out of unarmed combat?
Yep.

> Do they get a bonus for being at point blank range?
Nope.

> Does the defending model get to block against the shot? If so what do
> they roll against and what modifiers apply?
>
Nope. A common early move in a fight like this is to grab the gun (I add +2
to the TN to do this, but inflict no damage).

> Also ,If a mage tries to cast a physical damage spell into a close combat
> does he risk hitting his team-mate or does he target the enemy model's aura or
> something and are there modifiers for the enemy being partially covered by his
> team-mate?
>

Depends... Combat spell, no. It's going to only hurt the people the mage
desires it to hurt, even if it's an AOE spell. A Damaging Manipulation
might have penalties involved (depending on the spell).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 3
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Shooting in hand-to-hand
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 13:29:36 +1100
Robert Watkins writes:

> > Does the defending model get to block against the shot? If so what do
> > they roll against and what modifiers apply?
> >
> Nope. A common early move in a fight like this is to grab the gun (I add +2
> to the TN to do this, but inflict no damage).

I'd have it come under the "called shot" rules, and so be a +4. But what I
find is more common is having either bayonets on characters rifles, or using
the butt of the weapon with an elbow smash (there's a name for that attack,
but I can't think of it right now). That way the person with the weapon
never needs to drop the thing, etc etc, and can engage in melee combat with
not too much hassle.

> > Also ,If a mage tries to cast a physical damage spell into a close combat
> > does he risk hitting his team-mate or does he target the enemy model's aura
> > or something and are there modifiers for the enemy being partially covered
> > by his team-mate?
>
> Depends... Combat spell, no. It's going to only hurt the people the mage
> desires it to hurt, even if it's an AOE spell. A Damaging Manipulation
> might have penalties involved (depending on the spell).

Actually, a combat spell efefcts _everyone_ in it''s area of efefct, whether
the casting magician wants it to o not (I can't quote the rules as I haven't
got my book with me, but I"ll look it up later if you want). Also note that
I don't think the rules even except the caster from the effects if he casts
it that close. As for being behind partial cover, yes, other people do count
as cover modifiers for attacks.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(*) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') (!)tv(--)@
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 4
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Shooting in hand-to-hand
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 12:38:44 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> > Depends... Combat spell, no. It's going to only hurt the people the mage
> > desires it to hurt, even if it's an AOE spell. A Damaging Manipulation
> > might have penalties involved (depending on the spell).
>
> Actually, a combat spell efefcts _everyone_ in it''s area of efefct, whether
> the casting magician wants it to o not (I can't quote the rules as I haven't
> got my book with me, but I"ll look it up later if you want). Also note that
> I don't think the rules even except the caster from the effects if he casts
> it that close. As for being behind partial cover, yes, other people do count
> as cover modifiers for attacks.
>

A Combat Spell affects only the targets designated. If it hurt everyone,
it'd hurt people around corners, etc.


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 5
From: pran r mukherjee <pran@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shooting in hand-to-hand
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 23:08:26 -0400
>
> > Also ,If a mage tries to cast a physical damage spell into a close
combat
> > does he risk hitting his team-mate or does he target the enemy model's aura or
> > something and are there modifiers for the enemy being partially covered by his
> > team-mate?
> >
>
> Depends... Combat spell, no. It's going to only hurt the people the mage
> desires it to hurt, even if it's an AOE spell. A Damaging Manipulation
> might have penalties involved (depending on the spell).
>

This is WRONG. Anyone caught in an AOE spell is FUBARed. They are not
selective like that. If Ally #1 is caught with Baddy #37 in the same
fireball, both are hosed. Same with Damaging Manips, although there
cover and armor apply.
Message no. 6
From: John Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Shooting in hand-to-hand
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:33:39 +0100
> Also ,If a mage tries to cast a physical damage spell into a close combat
> does he risk hitting his team-mate or does he target the enemy model's aura or
> something and are there modifiers for the enemy being partially covered by his
> team-mate?

He hits everything in the area of effect if its a damaging manipulation -
he gets to choose his targets (aligning the spell to their auras) if its
a combat spell (Note that this also has a flipside - you canot hit targets that
you canot see).

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 7
From: John Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Shooting in hand-to-hand
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:57:10 +0100
> Actually, a combat spell efefcts _everyone_ in it''s area of efefct, whether
> the casting magician wants it to o not (I can't quote the rules as I haven't
> got my book with me, but I"ll look it up later if you want). Also note that
> I don't think the rules even except the caster from the effects if he casts
> it that close. As for being behind partial cover, yes, other people do count
> as cover modifiers for attacks.

You are definitely wrong here, cause if that were the case mages could use
combat spells to shoot around the corner (hitting people they cant see).
You have to see someone to hit him with a combat spell, because you align
the spell to his aura or somesuch - if you ask me this means that you can
avoid alligning the spell to the auras of those you dont want to hit.
Damaging manipulations on the other hand are a different thing...

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 8
From: John Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Shooting in hand-to-hand
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 12:03:41 +0100
> This is WRONG. Anyone caught in an AOE spell is FUBARed. They are not
> selective like that. If Ally #1 is caught with Baddy #37 in the same
> fireball, both are hosed. Same with Damaging Manips, although there
> cover and armor apply.

No - just listen to your argument "caught in an AOE spell". You canot
get caught in an area of effect combat spell - because it has to visible
effect. The fireball spell (combat spell) is nothing like the **&* fireball
everyone has in mind. It involves no balls of fire flying through the air
and exploding on impact. The effects of fireball go something like this:
Mage starts to concentrate and fractions of a second later the guys he
wants to take out and are in the area of effect simply explode.
Now I agree you also have the elemental effects wich I comvieniently
left out. That is another question as their damage codes are not
incorporated in the general damage code of the spell.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Shooting in hand-to-hand
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 23:37:00 +0930
John Fikouras wrote:
>
> You are definitely wrong here, cause if that were the case mages could use
> combat spells to shoot around the corner (hitting people they cant see).

*sigh* I hate having to admit when I'm wrong, but here goes.

Taken directly from the book, AOE spells affect _all_ valid targets. Valid
targets, obviously, are limited to the ones you can see (and also taking
into account such things as Mana spell affecting only living targets).

(See Page 130, Hardback. Area-effect spell).

[ snip ]

> Damaging manipulations on the other hand are a different thing...

Yeah.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 10
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shooting in hand-to-hand
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:50:01 -30000
On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, John Fikouras wrote:

> > This is WRONG. Anyone caught in an AOE spell is FUBARed. They are not
> > selective like that. If Ally #1 is caught with Baddy #37 in the same
> > fireball, both are hosed. Same with Damaging Manips, although there
> > cover and armor apply.
>
> No - just listen to your argument "caught in an AOE spell". You canot
> get caught in an area of effect combat spell - because it has to visible
> effect. The fireball spell (combat spell) is nothing like the **&* fireball
> everyone has in mind. It involves no balls of fire flying through the air
> and exploding on impact. The effects of fireball go something like this:
> Mage starts to concentrate and fractions of a second later the guys he
> wants to take out and are in the area of effect simply explode.
> Now I agree you also have the elemental effects wich I comvieniently
> left out. That is another question as their damage codes are not
> incorporated in the general damage code of the spell.

{Assume, for the sake of arguement, that the AoE combat spell in question
is the Manaball spell. I choose this spell because it is an AoE spell
that can only affect living creatures, and therefore don't have to worry
about the spell affecting the car that is also in the AoE. Nor does it
have an elemental effect. This spell just pumps raw astral energy into
the auras in the AoE}

Delete "the guys he wants to take out" from the above quoted paragraph. All
auras within the area of effect have to resist the effects of the spell.
The mage cannot discriminate. Now, the target numbers for each one of
those auras within the AoE may in fact be different, depending on the
various factors (mostly line-of-sight interruptions) affecting the mage's
target number. Remember, for an AoE combat spell, the mage rolls the
dice *once*, then assesses effects according to each target's individual
cover with relation to the casting mage.

Oh, BTW, this has no visible effect on the target. No flashing lights,
no howling magics, nothing. The target just starts bruising and
internally bleeding.

Next, discussion of combat spells w/ elemental effects, and Damaging
manipulation spells (Both with AoE).

Combat spells with Elemental Effects (CS+EE) :-)
These spells cause the EE to appear around each target in the AoE.
Hellblast, for example, engulfs each target within the AoE with a
*magical* flame. The targets are surrounded by flame for an instant.
This spell is subject to LOS modifiers for each target seperately, as a
normal AoE combat spell.

Damaging Manips. (DM's)
This class of spell *must* have an elemental effect. (See Grim II, spell
design rules). An AoE DM, when cast, summons a "pointer" into being at
the caster's location. This "pointer" then travels from the caster to
the desired point in space (unless blocked) at which time it expands to
fill the entire AoE with the elemental effect. In effect, the caster
"gates" in the element to fill the AoE. Damage is then assesed according
to how much and how well (Damage code and successes) of the element was
brought into being. This element is real, but probably unsustainable.
(Water sinks into the ground, fire goes out to to lack of fule, acid is
neutralized/diluted, ice melts, electricity ground, etc.)


Chavez:"I want to see his eyes when it happens."
Clark:"So use a good scope on the rifle."

Further Reading

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