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Message no. 1
From: Neil Smith <NSMITH@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Shooting locks
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 10:54:25 GMT
A standard everyday occurence in TV-land is the Hero(-ine) coming to
a locked door, pulling out a pistol and shooting the lock off to get
to the Innocent Bystander. Has anyone tried this? Is it realistic?
How easy is it to shoot open a lock? Or does shooting it just jam it
in the locked position?

Ta,

Neil.
Message no. 2
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Shooting locks
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 11:44:44 -0500
>>>>> "Neil" == Neil Smith <NSMITH@***.AC.UK> writes:

Neil> A standard everyday occurence in TV-land is the Hero(-ine) coming to
Neil> a locked door, pulling out a pistol and shooting the lock off to get
Neil> to the Innocent Bystander. Has anyone tried this? Is it realistic?
Neil> How easy is it to shoot open a lock? Or does shooting it just jam it
Neil> in the locked position?

Depends on the lock in question, but...

<dons his locksmith's hat>

You see, there are lots of kinds of locks. Most locks today are of the pin
variety: align a bunch of pins properly and you can turn the cylinder, thus
disengaging the lock. Most other mechanical locks are some variation of
this basic mechanism. So, when you shoot at this kind of lock, you'll
probably seriously mess up the cylinder, thus making it very easy to
disengage the lock. Or, you might shatter the bolt of a door lock, again,
making entry easy.

Any locking mechanism that relies on some form of mechanical apparatus can
be broken; if you break the lock or bolt, then you're in. And, as it's
impossible to make a lock that doesn't rely upon some form of mechanical
apparatus, well, you get the idea.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 3
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shooting locks
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 14:05:26 -0500
On Thu, 12 Jan 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Any locking mechanism that relies on some form of mechanical apparatus can
> be broken; if you break the lock or bolt, then you're in. And, as it's
> impossible to make a lock that doesn't rely upon some form of mechanical
> apparatus, well, you get the idea.

This is not entirely true. Keep in mind the concept of a
maglock. It keeps the door closed by supplying power to a very strong
magnet that holds the door in place. It needs no "mechanical" apparatus
per se, and doesn't really even need to have any moving parts.
However, it is subject to some of the same weaknesses. If you
shoot the magnetic attractor or the cable that supplies it power, the
door will open. This can be more difficult than it sounds, however, as
you may not know where these components are located in the wall/doorframe.
So just use a grenade and be done with it :)

Marc
Message no. 4
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Shooting locks
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 04:46:26 +0930
>
> On Thu, 12 Jan 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> > Any locking mechanism that relies on some form of mechanical apparatus can
> > be broken; if you break the lock or bolt, then you're in. And, as it's
> > impossible to make a lock that doesn't rely upon some form of mechanical
> > apparatus, well, you get the idea.
>
> This is not entirely true. Keep in mind the concept of a
> maglock. It keeps the door closed by supplying power to a very strong
> magnet that holds the door in place. It needs no "mechanical" apparatus
> per se, and doesn't really even need to have any moving parts.

> However, it is subject to some of the same weaknesses. If you
> shoot the magnetic attractor or the cable that supplies it power, the
> door will open. This can be more difficult than it sounds, however, as
> you may not know where these components are located in the wall/doorframe.
> So just use a grenade and be done with it :)
>

Excuse me, but how on earth can you not know where the great big
electomagnet is?? You could find out with a needle, if nothing else. :)

OTH, in a sensible maglock, when the power is cut, the field that was
stopping the deadbolts from falling into place is gone as well...

I'm with you, just use a grenade (or a nice shaped charge :) )

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 5
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shooting locks
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 14:31:41 -0500
>>>>> "Marc" == Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:

Marc> This is not entirely true. Keep in mind the concept of a maglock.
Marc> It keeps the door closed by supplying power to a very strong magnet
Marc> that holds the door in place. It needs no "mechanical" apparatus per
Marc> se, and doesn't really even need to have any moving parts.

So cut the power to the magnet. Door opens. Not a very secure arrangement.

Actually, a maglock is a lock that uses a magnetically encoded key; the
actual locking mechanism can be anything, but I doubt that anyone would use
a magnet to actually lock the door. A solenoid arrangement sure, but an
electromagnet is very easilly bypassed.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Shooting locks
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 05:10:38 +0930
>
> Marc> This is not entirely true. Keep in mind the concept of a maglock.
> Marc> It keeps the door closed by supplying power to a very strong magnet
> Marc> that holds the door in place. It needs no "mechanical" apparatus
per
> Marc> se, and doesn't really even need to have any moving parts.
>
> So cut the power to the magnet. Door opens. Not a very secure arrangement.
>
> Actually, a maglock is a lock that uses a magnetically encoded key; the
> actual locking mechanism can be anything, but I doubt that anyone would use
> a magnet to actually lock the door. A solenoid arrangement sure, but an
> electromagnet is very easilly bypassed.

I gotta admit this is how I've always seen maglocks... hence the maglock
passkey.

But a magnetic lock is still possible. One example I know of is some types
of elevators. Not to mention bank vaults (anyone remember "Die Hard" :) )

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shooting locks
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 12:16:33 +0100
> However, it is subject to some of the same weaknesses. If you
>shoot the magnetic attractor or the cable that supplies it power, the
>door will open. This can be more difficult than it sounds, however, as
>you may not know where these components are located in the wall/doorframe.
>So just use a grenade and be done with it :)

You could construct a lock that uses a natural magnet to keep the door
locked, and a more powerful electromagnet to open it. If you cut the power
to the electromagnet, the lock automatically closes.


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl
De elektronische B-weg...

GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3
E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@
h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shooting locks
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 12:16:44 +0100
>A standard everyday occurence in TV-land is the Hero(-ine) coming to
>a locked door, pulling out a pistol and shooting the lock off to get
>to the Innocent Bystander. Has anyone tried this? Is it realistic?
>How easy is it to shoot open a lock? Or does shooting it just jam it
>in the locked position?

Shooting open a lock with ball ammo would be almost impossible, I think.
Especially what you see in the movies, where The Hero(tm) shoots a single
pistol round at a chain that's padlocked to a fence and the chain breaks.
Normal locks...well, I don't really think it'd work. Your best bet would be
to do it as seen in Who Framed Roger Rabbit, simply use your SMG to shoot
_around_ the lock and then just kick it out of the door. OK, it sounds
simpler than it is.

Actually, the best thing to do is to get anti-hinge ammo (as used by
anti-terrorist units). Only available for shotguns, you use it to shoot the
hinges off the door, and then open the door to the other side as it's
supposed to open.


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl
De elektronische B-weg...

GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3
E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@
h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 9
From: Robert Hobson <cain@*****.NB.CA>
Subject: Re: Shooting locks
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 14:50:59 -0400
>> However, it is subject to some of the same weaknesses. If you
>>shoot the magnetic attractor or the cable that supplies it power, the
>>door will open. This can be more difficult than it sounds, however, as
>>you may not know where these components are located in the wall/doorframe.
>>So just use a grenade and be done with it :)
>
>You could construct a lock that uses a natural magnet to keep the door
>locked, and a more powerful electromagnet to open it. If you cut the power
>to the electromagnet, the lock automatically closes.

I'll go with a shape charge. If the door don't open make your own door.
This trick works floors, walls and ceilings.
Robert Hobson

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
+ xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx +
+ xxxxxxxxxx Under xxxxxxxxxx Robert Hobson +
+ xxxxxxx Construction xxxxxx ___ cain@*****.nb.ca +
+ xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (o o) +
+---------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo---------------------+
Message no. 10
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shooting locks
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 16:19:27 -0800
On Thu, 12 Jan 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> So cut the power to the magnet. Door opens. Not a very secure arrangement.
>
> Actually, a maglock is a lock that uses a magnetically encoded key; the
> actual locking mechanism can be anything, but I doubt that anyone would use
> a magnet to actually lock the door. A solenoid arrangement sure, but an
> electromagnet is very easilly bypassed.

I'd have to agree. Actually, I imagine the setup would be the
opposite: keeping power supplied to the solenoid holds a bolt under the
influence of a very strong spring from slamming shut. The door is
electromechanically locked (and the maglock passcard is the _access
system_ as opposed to a keypad); if the power is cut to the
electromechanical system the spring slams the bolt home and triggers the
"power out" alarm.
An example of this system was in the movie "Die Hard" (though I'm
usually loathe to recommend Hollywood as a source of realism).

> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/Adam/getchell.html
Message no. 11
From: Malcalypse The Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Shooting locks
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 22:57:35 -0500
On Thu, 12 Jan 1995, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Jan 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> > Any locking mechanism that relies on some form of mechanical apparatus can
> > be broken; if you break the lock or bolt, then you're in. And, as it's
> > impossible to make a lock that doesn't rely upon some form of mechanical
> > apparatus, well, you get the idea.
>
> This is not entirely true. Keep in mind the concept of a
> maglock. It keeps the door closed by supplying power to a very strong
> magnet that holds the door in place. It needs no "mechanical" apparatus
> per se, and doesn't really even need to have any moving parts.
> However, it is subject to some of the same weaknesses. If you
> shoot the magnetic attractor or the cable that supplies it power, the
> door will open. This can be more difficult than it sounds, however, as
> you may not know where these components are located in the wall/doorframe.
> So just use a grenade and be done with it :)
>
> Marc
>

Also, a sufficiently powerful magnet should also be able to nuetralize
(or overpower) the magnet holding the door closed. This may set off an
alarm (but cutting the wire almost certainly will) Also, it's _much_
quieter.... Anyone have any idea just how powerful a maglock system would
be?

------
If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumbered here
While these visions did appear.
-Shadow
Message no. 12
From: Inquisitor <ESPD92MS@****.ANGLIA-POLYTECHNIC.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: shooting locks
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 16:55:00 GMT
Using a grenade is a very shoddy way of doing things and is also very danger-
ous if the players are in an enclosed space such as a corridor or room. If
you need to get in quickly there are two techniques that the Brit army use.
1) Shaped charge. This comes in the form of an X and can be any size the
pcs want.Coz of its shape the hole blown is roughly circular so that an ass
ault team will have no probs getting in. It also reduces shrapnel etc.

Further Reading

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