Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Shooting through cover
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:45:32 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Aerio Chrome wrote:

> I've not had any RL experience with this, but it seems that you should be
> able to position yourself in cover so that it doesn't impeded your
> movement too much. Laying prone by a corner gives you concealment from
> people shooting at you, but you still have amost full movement for
> shooting at other targets.

I can tell you this - laying down is the fastest way to restrict
your mobility. In order to move you either need to crawl or spend a
moment getting up. It's hard to change your direction of fire (standing
up, you just turn around, lying down it's not so easy).
Also, cover reflects more than just how much of your body is
exposed. It also reflects the amount of time your body is exposed.
Taking cover implies at least some movement. Part of the modifier for
taking cover deals with this movement. It also deals with temporarily
losing line of sight to the target while you're moving around. That split
second of reaquisition you need to make is one of the things that makes
the shot more difficult.
But essentially, you are correct. There are times when your
movement won't be restricted. But that's rarely "cover." It's usually
concealment, which is a totally different ballgame. I make a distinction
in my game between concealment and actual cover. Cover adds to people's
target numbers to hit you (as well as increasing your own to shoot back).
Concealment, on the other hand, adds to the target number people need on a
perception test to see you. Ferns and grass are a perfect example. If
you can't see your target, you can't engage him effectively. If you do
spot the target, the grass is going to do jack to stop the bullet. Once
you've sptted him, he's not in "cover" at all.

> Another home rule is that if a character is using APDS ammo, and their
> target is hiding behind a wall, who really cares that they have +6 cover?

I too use a similar house rule, but for all shots, not just APDS.
It also works by "accident," i.e. if you don't have any successes that
would hit the target including the cover modifier, you check if you have
any that hit using half the target's cover modifier (the half reflecting
the fact that if you can't see the target you don't really know how he's
positioned behind the cover, and may be shooting at the wrong place
entirely). If you do, then you hit the target, but the target gets the
benefit of the Barrier Rating of the cover as armor.
For example, Sleazy the Sam is shooting his Ares Predator at Timmy
the Target. They're in an abandoned trainyard, and Timmy the Target is
running as fast as he can in and among the stacks of discarded railroad
ties. It's long range (6), Sleazy has a smartlink (-2), it's partial
light conditions, but Sleazy has lowlight (+1), Sleazy is stationary (+0),
but his target is running (+3 - see note below), and has 75% cover (+6).
The final target number for the shot is 6-2+1+3+6 = 14. Sleazy spends his
first simple action aiming, dropping the target number to 13.
Sleazy rolls his skill of 5 and adds the maximum of 5 combat pool,
for a total of 10 dice. He gets a 1,2,3,3,4,5,5,5,10, and 11. Normally,
that would be a complete miss.
But wait! Sleazy has a 10 and an 11. The target number to hit
through cover is a 13 - target's cover/2 = 10. That's two successes!
Unfortunately, the GM rules that the heavy creosote-soaked, sun-hardened
timbers count as "structural material" and have a Barrier Rating of 12,
and the power level of the attack is only a 9. Alas, Timmy the target is
saved, as rounds that have his name on them smack harmlessly into the
railroad ties.

This rule makes players think. No longer can you jump behind the
rice-paper shoji panel and claim to be unhittable. People pay a lot more
attention to their surroundings, and positioning yourself near adequate
cover becomes important.

*NOTE from above - FASA pisses me off. Their target number
modifiers for moving targets are all out of whack. They have a stationary
target at -1 and a running target at +2. Why did they do this? Why make
a walking target the baseline? Leading even a slowly moving target
correctly isn't easy. To rectify this, I've made stationary targets +0,
walking targets +1, and running targets +3. This way, in ideal conditions
at short range with both a stationary shooter and target, the target
number to hit is a 4, just like every other base-line target number in the
freakin' game.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.html.com> List Owner
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.html.com> Assistant List Administrator
DVixen <dvixen@****.com> Keeper of the FAQs
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
David Buehrer <graht@********.att.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 2
From: Aerio Chrome aeriochrome@****.com
Subject: Shooting through cover
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:34:30 -0500
On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Marc Renouf
<renouf@********.com> writes:
<snip original post>
> I can tell you this - laying down is the fastest way to
>restrict your mobility. In order to move you either need to crawl or
spend a
>moment getting up. It's hard to change your direction of fire
>(standing up, you just turn around, lying down it's not so easy).

Right I never said anything about having unrestricted LOS's or movement,
I use a dry erase board for combat and if a character in cover cannot see
a target (because of interference by their cover) they cannot shoot that
target without taking the movement penalty (and cover modifier if they
don't re-position themselves).

> Also, cover reflects more than just how much of your body is
>exposed. It also reflects the amount of time your body is exposed.
>Taking cover implies at least some movement. Part of the modifier
>for taking cover deals with this movement. It also deals with
temporarily
>losing line of sight to the target while you're moving around. That
>split second of reaquisition you need to make is one of the things that
>makes the shot more difficult.

Okay, I've always viewed cover as amount of target exposed, and didn't
worry about the shooter's movement, ducking back behind cover, etc. That
is a good point. So in your game does that mean someone who's aiming
doesn't get penalized for moving around (if they're ducking back behind
cover, they can't be aiming at a target)? As well shouldn't they be
incapable of dodging (or even Combat Pool use) without sacrificing their
aiming if it is spread out over multiple Passes/Actions?

> But essentially, you are correct. There are times when your
>movement won't be restricted. But that's rarely "cover." It's
>usually concealment, which is a totally different ballgame. I make a
>distinction in my game between concealment and actual cover. Cover adds
to
>people's target numbers to hit you (as well as increasing your own to
shoot
>back). Concealment, on the other hand, adds to the target number people
need
>on a perception test to see you. Ferns and grass are a perfect example.

>If you can't see your target, you can't engage him effectively. If you
>do spot the target, the grass is going to do jack to stop the bullet.
>Once you've sptted him, he's not in "cover" at all.

Okay, I've delt with this by allowing a character to ignore the cover
modifiers (most foliage cannot stop bullets) and shoot at people who are
in concealment once they notice them.

<snip original>
> I too use a similar house rule, but for all shots, not just
>APDS. It also works by "accident," i.e. if you don't have any successes
>that would hit the target including the cover modifier, you check if you

>have any that hit using half the target's cover modifier (the half
>reflecting the fact that if you can't see the target you don't really
know how
>he's positioned behind the cover, and may be shooting at the wrong place
>entirely). If you do, then you hit the target, but the target gets
>the benefit of the Barrier Rating of the cover as armor.

Again, I was using APDS to stress the point, it should work equally well
with other ammunition types (although I've thought about not allowing it
with explosive ammo, after all it does detonate on contact which in this
case would be on impact with the barrier, not the target).

<snip Sleazy's rough break>
> This rule makes players think. No longer can you jump behind
>the rice-paper shoji panel and claim to be unhittable. People pay a lot

>more attention to their surroundings, and positioning yourself near
>adequate cover becomes important.

Right, movies annoy me when people take cover behind flimsy interior
walls and don't get hit by rounds that impact those walls and should
punch right through.

<snip mini-rant on target numbers>

>Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Aeriochrome
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Message no. 3
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Shooting through cover
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:40:07 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 17 Jun 1999, Aerio Chrome wrote:

> Okay, I've always viewed cover as amount of target exposed, and didn't
> worry about the shooter's movement, ducking back behind cover, etc. That
> is a good point. So in your game does that mean someone who's aiming
> doesn't get penalized for moving around (if they're ducking back behind
> cover, they can't be aiming at a target)? As well shouldn't they be
> incapable of dodging (or even Combat Pool use) without sacrificing their
> aiming if it is spread out over multiple Passes/Actions?

Actually, this is already written into the rules. If you use your
combat pool dice for *anything* before you fire, you lose the benfit of
your aim. No dodging, no adding to Body resistance tests. I think this
is mentioned in the section on aiming.

Marc

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Shooting through cover, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.