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Message no. 1
From: Sebastian Vilstrup <vilstrup@*****.IHI.KU.DK>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 15:59:18 +0200
On tue 23 may Sebastian Wiers asked for rules concerning shotguns - he
felt they were too powerful

Since we are namesakes i'l give my rules for it:

As usual the power and target number are reduced by one for every
"choke" meters. That doesn't help the target much. He rolls vs. 2's
instead of 3's (assuming Enfield and armour jacket). It does help the
shooter though, so my gaming group and i came up with this:

Reduce damage level by one for every 3 choke effects; i.e. choke 5 at
30 meters would reduce target and power by 6 and damage level by 2 from S
to L. So the ol'e Enfield would only cause 2L at 30 m. and choke 5 with a
single shot.

I've also considered disallowing the cyberchoke, because, even with the
above rules, the shotgun is still powerful at short ranges. this would
make the players less prone to optimize their choke for a given situation

Sebastian

- The only good quote is a dead quote
Message no. 2
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 19:05:40 GMT
> On tue 23 may Sebastian Wiers asked for rules concerning shotguns - he
> felt they were too powerful
>
> Reduce damage level by one for every 3 choke effects; i.e. choke 5 at
> 30 meters would reduce target and power by 6 and damage level by 2 from S
> to L. So the ol'e Enfield would only cause 2L at 30 m. and choke 5 with a
> single shot.
>
> I've also considered disallowing the cyberchoke, because, even with the
> above rules, the shotgun is still powerful at short ranges. this would
> make the players less prone to optimize their choke for a given situation

Those rules actually do model shotguns pretty well. The answer for a
wireboy is to sprint one action. Quickness 6 x 4 - an extra 24 metres.
Probably a range of 30 metres at least now. That shotgun is now looking
at a 7M shot: no better than a submachinegun. Try to open the choke a
little and it really falls off.

Don't take the cyberchoke away: just ask "What choke setting?" If they
don't answer right away, just use whatever they had on the weapon last
time. Or have it take a Simple Action to change choke setting. Or,
nastiest of all (and fairly realistic), choked bores can't fire slug.

But the point of a shotgun is that it throws massively lethal slug, or
pumps out buckshot that is deadly at five metres and useless at fifty.
If the players get too enamoured of shotguns, have some NPCs engage
with assault rifles at 100-200 metres.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 3
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 20:12:11 BST
> Don't take the cyberchoke away: just ask "What choke setting?" If they
> don't answer right away, just use whatever they had on the weapon last
> time. Or have it take a Simple Action to change choke setting. Or,
> nastiest of all (and fairly realistic), choked bores can't fire slug.

I believe changing a cyber-choke is a simple, regular choke is a complex,
and didn't somebody post something about a shotgun where you could
open the choke so far that it didn't actually interfere with a slug.

Nt that I know about the mechanics of the choke, I have this mental
image of an iris valve at one end of the barrel, something that
would probably keep half the pelletsw in the shot gun :-(

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 4
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 00:13:10 GMT
> > Don't take the cyberchoke away: just ask "What choke setting?" If they
> > don't answer right away, just use whatever they had on the weapon last
> > time. Or have it take a Simple Action to change choke setting. Or,
> > nastiest of all (and fairly realistic), choked bores can't fire slug.
>
> I believe changing a cyber-choke is a simple, regular choke is a complex,
> and didn't somebody post something about a shotgun where you could
> open the choke so far that it didn't actually interfere with a slug.

In theory, yes. In practice, unless the choke retracts fully it risks being
damaged by the slug in passage: and if it retracts too far, combustion
gas leaks out with really nasty effects on the mechanism.

> Not that I know about the mechanics of the choke, I have this mental
> image of an iris valve at one end of the barrel, something that
> would probably keep half the pelletsw in the shot gun :-(

Actually it's basically a taper in the barrel. Nowadays you can change
"choke tubes" which are about the size of cartridges and screw into the
weapin just ahead of the breech. So you can have a tight choke for long-
range shots, then change it for a wide choke for woodland as you change
terrain.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 5
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: shotguns
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:59:59 +0200
lets not forget that some of these use heavy weapon recoil rules.

Gyr0
Message no. 6
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Shotguns
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:40:17 -0400
How would ya'll handle double barreled shotguns? What would be the
effect of firing both barrels at once?
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 7
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:14:30 -0400
>How would ya'll handle double barreled shotguns? What would be the
>effect of firing both barrels at once?
>--
>Bai Shen
>Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
>http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
>UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)

Two options.

1) role once to hit. Have the person resist the damage twice.
2) Treat it as a short burst, per the standard rules.

I prefere the second since it's less abusive.

Lorden
Message no. 8
From: Dom T-J <phobic@**.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:36:34 +1000
>How would ya'll handle double barreled shotguns? What would be the
>effect of firing both barrels at once?

Played 'Quake'?
I'd tend to rule that it had the same effect as a Burst... only +1 power
level (only one extra round), but stage up once.
Phobic
"He who fears nothing save fear itself. And trolls with clubs."
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:11:15 +0200
Bai Shen said on 20:40/7 Sep 98,...

> How would ya'll handle double barreled shotguns? What would be the
> effect of firing both barrels at once?

Per SR3 rules, this would be a short burst, and thus get +2 to the Power
Level. (Page 115, SR3.) This is why I treat double-barrel shotguns as
firing in single-shot mode with each barrel, so you can fire each in a
Simple Action and do damage twice (provided you hit twice, of course).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:32:09 +1000
>>How would ya'll handle double barreled shotguns? What would be the
>>effect of firing both barrels at once?
>
>Played 'Quake'?
>I'd tend to rule that it had the same effect as a Burst... only +1 power
>level (only one extra round), but stage up once.

Double-barreled shotguns use the rules for short bursts (+1 to the power
level, no staging increase). For a similar example check out the
description for the Walther Palm Pistol - it also has a one-or-two-barrel
firing mode.

Oh, and =) (That's a token emoticon just for you Ereskanti...)



- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."
Message no. 11
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:45:58 +1000
>Double-barreled shotguns use the rules for short bursts (+1 to the power
>level, no staging increase). For a similar example check out the
>description for the Walther Palm Pistol - it also has a one-or-two-barrel
>firing mode.

Stoopid... Stoopid. That's a typo guys. Shoulda been +2.



- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:30:37 -0600
<evil GM thought>

A troll weilding a six-barreled shotgun.

</evil GM thought>

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 13
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:42:59 -0400
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Gurth wrote:

->Bai Shen said on 20:40/7 Sep 98,...
->
->> How would ya'll handle double barreled shotguns? What would be the
->> effect of firing both barrels at once?
->
->Per SR3 rules, this would be a short burst, and thus get +2 to the Power
->Level. (Page 115, SR3.) This is why I treat double-barrel shotguns as
->firing in single-shot mode with each barrel, so you can fire each in a
->Simple Action and do damage twice (provided you hit twice, of course).

This way makes more sense too, as unlike bullets which come at you
"single file", a shotgun blast comes at you in "mob formation". One
attack, two damage resistance rolls. Hmmm.... But I'd have to say to
divide the number of successes by each barrel and round down, due to the
EXCESSIVE recoil this would create (as well as game fairness).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:42:24 +0200
According to David Foster, at 12:42 on 8 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> This way makes more sense too, as unlike bullets which come at you
> "single file", a shotgun blast comes at you in "mob formation".
One
> attack, two damage resistance rolls. Hmmm.... But I'd have to say to
> divide the number of successes by each barrel and round down, due to the
> EXCESSIVE recoil this would create (as well as game fairness).

I just make it two Firearms tests, in essence making the gun fire two
separate shots one right after the other. Not entirely accurate, I know,
but better than simply adding +2 to the Power and leaving it at that.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:06:15 -0400
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Gurth wrote:

->According to David Foster, at 12:42 on 8 Sep 98, the word on the street was...
->
->> This way makes more sense too, as unlike bullets which come at you
->> "single file", a shotgun blast comes at you in "mob
formation". One
->> attack, two damage resistance rolls. Hmmm.... But I'd have to say to
->> divide the number of successes by each barrel and round down, due to the
->> EXCESSIVE recoil this would create (as well as game fairness).
->
->I just make it two Firearms tests, in essence making the gun fire two
->separate shots one right after the other. Not entirely accurate, I know,
->but better than simply adding +2 to the Power and leaving it at that.

Why two tests, though? It's only one gun. What would be your
rationale if one missed and one hit on a double-barreled shotgun? Did the
other barrel turn sideways? (I know, silly, but you get my point).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:40:40 +0200
According to David Foster, at 16:06 on 8 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> ->I just make it two Firearms tests, in essence making the gun fire two
> ->separate shots one right after the other. Not entirely accurate, I know,
> ->but better than simply adding +2 to the Power and leaving it at that.
>
> Why two tests, though? It's only one gun. What would be your
> rationale if one missed and one hit on a double-barreled shotgun? Did the
> other barrel turn sideways? (I know, silly, but you get my point).

For shot rounds the following doesn't make much sense, but if you're
firing slugs of one kind or another (which almost everybody always does in
the SR games I've played in, so that's mainly what I was talking about),
you can very well hit with one round and miss with the other. Thus, two
tests.

OTOH with shot rounds the patterns would be overlapping to such a degree
that anyone caught by one blast is also in the other, so there only one
"to hit" test would be sufficient I think, but damage could be resisted
twice.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:58:21 -0700
Gurth on -268443480 wrote:
> According to David Foster, at 16:06 on 8 Sep 98, the word on the street was...
>
> > ->I just make it two Firearms tests, in essence making the gun fire two
> > ->separate shots one right after the other. Not entirely accurate, I know,
> > ->but better than simply adding +2 to the Power and leaving it at that.
>
> For shot rounds the following doesn't make much sense, but if you're
> firing slugs of one kind or another (which almost everybody always does in
> the SR games I've played in, so that's mainly what I was talking about),
> you can very well hit with one round and miss with the other. Thus, two
> tests.
>
> OTOH with shot rounds the patterns would be overlapping to such a degree
> that anyone caught by one blast is also in the other, so there only one
> "to hit" test would be sufficient I think, but damage could be resisted
> twice.

With a sawed of shotgun, that's probably true. With a full barrel, it
would depend on the range. I think people vastly over estimate the
spread on a shot pattern. In game mechanics, it doesn't matter, as
SR projects two cones out, and the radius of those cones increases
very quickly.

To clarify that and summarize:
SR Game Mechanics - The spread on shot rounds quickly overlaps.
Real life - not as fast as one might think.
But, if both barrels are fired at once, I'd just add recoil and make it
one roll.

Maybe that was redundant in light of the overall thread. Oh well.

-Rob
Message no. 18
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:39:06 -0400
This is slightly OT, but oh, well.

> >How would ya'll handle double barreled shotguns? What would be the
> >effect of firing both barrels at once?
> Played 'Quake'?

The Quake(and most other shooters) shotgun blows. The only decent one
was in DOOM2.

> I'd tend to rule that it had the same effect as a Burst... only +1 power
> level (only one extra round), but stage up once.

I thought it was +2 for a two round burst?
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 19
From: Dom T-J <phobic@**.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:53:50 +1000
>> I'd tend to rule that it had the same effect as a Burst... only +1 power
>> level (only one extra round), but stage up once.
>I thought it was +2 for a two round burst?
>Bai Shen

Yes, sorry. I hadn't encountered the rules for short bursts, and was
simply stating how I thought it could be handled.


Phobic
"He who fears nothing save fear itself. And trolls with clubs."
Message no. 20
From: Alexandre van Chestein <havoc@****.CA>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:36:15 -0400
Upon the node of time, Gurth clicked:

>> ->I just make it two Firearms tests, in essence making the gun fire two
>> ->separate shots one right after the other. Not entirely accurate, I know,
>> ->but better than simply adding +2 to the Power and leaving it at that.
>>
>> Why two tests, though? It's only one gun. What would be your
>> rationale if one missed and one hit on a double-barreled shotgun? Did the
>> other barrel turn sideways? (I know, silly, but you get my point).

>For shot rounds the following doesn't make much sense, but if you're
>firing slugs of one kind or another (which almost everybody always does in
>the SR games I've played in, so that's mainly what I was talking about),
>you can very well hit with one round and miss with the other. Thus, two
>tests.

>OTOH with shot rounds the patterns would be overlapping to such a degree
>that anyone caught by one blast is also in the other, so there only one
>"to hit" test would be sufficient I think, but damage could be resisted
>twice.

>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

I personally have a problem with resisting damage twice. Taken
to a certain point, this would make a double-barelled shotgun more powerful
than a Panther Assault Cannon or an AVM. Allow me to explain.

With a Panther and its cozy 18D, even if you roll no successes, you
take Deadly damage and, if in full health, immediately drop to near-death
until your overflow runs out. Now, with two damage resistance tests, there
is a chance that high enough damage ratings will add up (say, Serious and
Serious, or anything with Deadly) and kill the character outright, filling
overflow in one shot. Even if you take a Vindicator and fire away all 15
rounds into a poor slot, that 22D will only bring him up to unconscious.
That's fifteen minigun bullets doing less than two loads of buckshot. To
me, that's a wee bit unfair. Which is why I'd definitely use the Short
Burst rules when firing both barrels at once, and double the recoil.

And while we're on the shotgun subject, here's a little question:
can shot pellets be Dikoted, and if they can, will it still increase damage
since they're not really edged?


---=== "Those who do not believe in magic will never find it." ===---
- Roald Dahl

Alexandre van Chestein - Havoc - havoc@****.ca
Message no. 21
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:02:20 -0700
> And while we're on the shotgun subject, here's a little question:
>can shot pellets be Dikoted, and if they can, will it still increase damage
>since they're not really edged?

Probably not, but you can make the rounds milspec flechette loads with
fullerene flechettes and dice armor and flesh like nobody's business ...
probably easiest to model it as dikoted flechette rounds, say 20 flechettes
per shotshell ... ;-)

Another writeup lost somewhere in the mists of time: I did smart bullets,
variable ballistics rounds, fullerene flechettes, smart grenades, and other
nasty and munchy things ... ;-)

> Alexandre van Chestein - Havoc - havoc@****.ca

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 22
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Shotguns
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:47:27 -0400
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Adam Getchell wrote:

->> And while we're on the shotgun subject, here's a little question:
->>can shot pellets be Dikoted, and if they can, will it still increase damage
->>since they're not really edged?
->
->Probably not, but you can make the rounds milspec flechette loads with
->fullerene flechettes and dice armor and flesh like nobody's business ...
->probably easiest to model it as dikoted flechette rounds, say 20 flechettes
->per shotshell ... ;-)
->
->Another writeup lost somewhere in the mists of time: I did smart bullets,
->variable ballistics rounds, fullerene flechettes, smart grenades, and other
->nasty and munchy things ... ;-)

What would be the cost of Dikoting a gun barrel? Nearly
frictionless, reduces cleaning time, far less velocity loss due to barrel
length (making it possible for longer barrels without problems)...
Ouch. Ok, I've put out the idea, someone make it as deadly as I
believe it to be..... ]:-) Then use it on your players. <EvilGM(tm)grin>

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

Further Reading

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