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Message no. 1
From: Court Schuett <schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU>
Subject: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:43:03 -0500
>You really think so? I've found that burst fire shotguns are great. Just
>slap a Imp. Gas Vent IV on the thing. 6-4-1=1 (doubled is 2) I can take a
>+2 target modifier for a second 11D or 12D shot. Espcially because your
>standard target of 2 is upped to 4. Not that bad. And with a strength of 5
>or 6, the recoil goes away again. Sure it destroys the concealibility, but
>just keep it off of the weapon until you need it. Then slap the thing on as
>your first action in combat (after diving for cover that is), or before
>combat, if you know it's coming.

Huh? Slapping Imp. Gas Venting on? I thought that's one of those that
couldn't even be taken off. I don't have the books with me, but I'm pretty
sure of it. I thought the idea behind Gas Venting was to use the guns own
gsases to push the barrell down. That's what one guy in our group
described it as. He's the gun-type person in the group. He said they
drilled down into the barrell and fitted it out with what you see on top to
blow the gas out the top. Makes sense to me.



-=Court

/* Court Schuett, a totally modern boy.
schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The words were in my head
The gun was on the shelf
Found the ammo in his pocket
I felt like someone else

I stalked my lover's wife
Shot her in the chest
Picked the kids up from the sitter's
stopped for beer and cigarettes
-Too Much Joy
*****************************************************************************/
Message no. 2
From: mike.paff@*****.COM
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:58:22 -0700
From: Court Schuett <schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU>
> I thought the idea behind Gas Venting was to use the guns own
> gsases to push the barrell down. That's what one guy in our group
> described it as. He's the gun-type person in the group. He said they
> drilled down into the barrell and fitted it out with what you see on top to
> blow the gas out the top.
>
With real-life gas venting, is there any appreciable effect on the muzzle
velocity? I was thinking that if there was a reduction, this might translate
to a reduction of the power level (introduce a trade-off between recoil
reduction and damage potential).

Mike Paff
Message no. 3
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:28:23 -0400
In a message dated 97-06-09 13:13:57 EDT, you write:

<< With real-life gas venting, is there any appreciable effect on the muzzle
velocity? I was thinking that if there was a reduction, this might
translate
to a reduction of the power level (introduce a trade-off between recoil
reduction and damage potential).
>>

Actually, to my understanding, there is a trade off in muzzel velocity.

Personally my house rules on the subject goes something like for every two
full levels of gas venting, the power rating of the weapon is reduced by 1.

-Bandit

"At my lemonade stand I used to give the first glass away free and charge
five dollars for the second glass. The refill contained the antidote."
Message no. 4
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 02:00:06 +0100
In message <199706091658.JAA00268@*******.?>, mike.paff@*****.COM writes
>From: Court Schuett <schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU>
>With real-life gas venting, is there any appreciable effect on the muzzle
>velocity?

No. Problems include wear on the weapon (bending forces on the barrel
that it was not designed to take) and, with some weapons and some loads,
a pronounced vertical smoke plume from the compensator, but a muzzle
compensator doesn't usually affect velocity: it acts on the gas after
the bullet leaves the barrel.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:26:26 +0100
Court Schuett said on 11:43/ 9 Jun 97...

> Huh? Slapping Imp. Gas Venting on? I thought that's one of those that
> couldn't even be taken off. I don't have the books with me, but I'm pretty
> sure of it. I thought the idea behind Gas Venting was to use the guns own
> gsases to push the barrell down. That's what one guy in our group
> described it as. He's the gun-type person in the group. He said they
> drilled down into the barrell and fitted it out with what you see on top to
> blow the gas out the top. Makes sense to me.

What SR cals a gas vent is known as a muzzle brake IRL. Your buddy is
right, it's a way to vent some of the gas (hence the SR name) coming out
of the muzzle up and back, rather than forward. That reduces recoil and
the tendency of many weapons to "climb" when fired. There are several ways
to do it, though -- one is drilling into the barrel, which is sometimes
down with target pistols.

Another is to fit an add-on device that has the same effect, but can be
removed, should that be necessary. For an example of a RL weapon with an
effective muzzle brake, look at the AK-74 (not 47, 74).

However, I wouldn't allow anyone to remove or fit a gas vent in a Complex
Action. SRII states "Once installed, gas-vent systems cannot be removed."
which doesn't make much sense either, since they could be screwed onto the
weapon rather than be welded (or forged) on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well that's allright now, you don't listen to me anyway.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 6
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:07:31 -0500
> However, I wouldn't allow anyone to remove or fit a gas vent in
> a Complex Action. SRII states "Once installed, gas-vent systems
> cannot be removed." which doesn't make much sense either,

Actually, it makes perfect sense. I muzzle brake like on a rifle
(your AK-74 or my M16) is screwed on to an exact torque and
an exact angle by a qualified armorer.

In the military, it was a court martial offense to tamper with the
gas vent on one's weapon... it got done all the time, and once,
during a live fire exercise, one of the idiots in my platoon had
his gas vent fall off... gone. So, was he. He got 5 years in a
military prison for it.

Cool.

Gossamer
Message no. 7
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:13:34 -0500
>In the military, it was a court martial offense to
>tamper with the gas vent on one's weapon... it
>got done all the time, and once, during a live
>fire exercise, one of the idiots in my platoon
>had his gas vent fall off... gone. So, was he.
>He got 5 years in a military prison for it.

Just out of curiosity, why would one tamper with
one's gas vent? What did this poor idiot hope to
gain?

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 8
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:27:01 -0600
Quoth Mike Elkins:
>
> >In the military, it was a court martial offense to
> >tamper with the gas vent on one's weapon... it
> >got done all the time, and once, during a live
> >fire exercise, one of the idiots in my platoon
> >had his gas vent fall off... gone. So, was he.
> >He got 5 years in a military prison for it.
>
> Just out of curiosity, why would one tamper with
> one's gas vent? What did this poor idiot hope to
> gain?

Weapons are "sensitive items" and the gas-vent, being part of that
item is also considered a "sensitive item." Theft, or loss, of these
items is a Bad Thing(tm) punishable by incarceration if it is felt
necessary. If he was trying to steal it then that was what he got
for his troubles.

--
|
Mike Loseke | You never know how fluffy poodles are,
mike@*******.com | until you step in one.
|
Message no. 9
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:52:46 -0500
> >In the military, it was a court martial offense to
> >tamper with the gas vent on one's weapon... it
> >got done all the time, and once, during a live
> >fire exercise, one of the idiots in my platoon
> >had his gas vent fall off... gone. So, was he.
> >He got 5 years in a military prison for it.
>
> Just out of curiosity, why would one tamper with
> one's gas vent? What did this poor idiot hope to
> gain?

Cleanliness. That was my CO's favorite place to

...here... wait...

<FUCKING_PISSED_OFF>

That was my $^&#$%&^ CO's ()%$^(*&^*() favorite
place to )*&%&^%# run a (*&^$@*&%** cotton
)()(*&*^$&* swab in order to find !#$%@$#@ carbon
so that he could %$^@%$^^#% fail you at a
$#!$@^%# inspection!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!!

aaaaAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHhhhh!!!

</FUCKING_PISSED_OFF>

So some people would remove them, get them
bright and shiny (apparently having a silver barreled
M16 was not a problem to my CO) with no carbon,
and then we'd be patted on the heads like the
good little boys we were.

That's why I think that all officers should have to
spend at least 2 years as an enlisted man...


Gossamer
Message no. 10
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil -Reply
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:06:45 -0500
>> Just out of curiosity, why would one tamper
with
>> one's gas vent? What did this poor idiot
hope to
>> gain?
>
>Cleanliness. That was my CO's favorite place
to
>Snip...>
So it was a Catch-22, if you took it off you got
reamed, but if you didn't take it off you got
reamed. Now it makes perfect sense ;)

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 11
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:19:36 +0100
In message <199706101758.MAA19670@****.madison.tec.wi.us>, Gossamer
<kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US> writes
>> However, I wouldn't allow anyone to remove or fit a gas vent in
>> a Complex Action. SRII states "Once installed, gas-vent systems
>> cannot be removed." which doesn't make much sense either,
>
>Actually, it makes perfect sense. I muzzle brake like on a rifle
>(your AK-74 or my M16) is screwed on to an exact torque and
>an exact angle by a qualified armorer.
>
>In the military, it was a court martial offense to tamper with the
>gas vent on one's weapon... it got done all the time, and once,
>during a live fire exercise, one of the idiots in my platoon had
>his gas vent fall off... gone. So, was he. He got 5 years in a
>military prison for it.

The flash hiders on our L1A1s didn't give any recoil reduction, IIRC.
You _could_ remove them, but nobody was daft enough to do so.

Five years for losing a flash hider seems pretty extreme, though. I
assume there were additional circumstances? (We've had blank firing
adapters shot off into the wide blue yonder during exercises and nobody
got custodial sentences)


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 12
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:16:43 +0100
In message <199706101658.SAA20704@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>Court Schuett said on 11:43/ 9 Jun 97...
>However, I wouldn't allow anyone to remove or fit a gas vent in a Complex
>Action. SRII states "Once installed, gas-vent systems cannot be removed."
>which doesn't make much sense either, since they could be screwed onto the
>weapon rather than be welded (or forged) on.

Of _course_ they can be removed.

Mr AK-74, meet Mr Hacksaw :)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 13
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:32:37 +1000
> >With real-life gas venting, is there any appreciable effect on the muzzle
> >velocity?
>
> No. Problems include wear on the weapon (bending forces on the barrel
> that it was not designed to take) and, with some weapons and some loads,
> a pronounced vertical smoke plume from the compensator, but a muzzle
> compensator doesn't usually affect velocity: it acts on the gas after
> the bullet leaves the barrel.
>

What about noise factors?
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:43:19 +0100
Paul J. Adam said on 23:16/10 Jun 97...

> Of _course_ [gas vents] can be removed.
>
> Mr AK-74, meet Mr Hacksaw :)

That's what I've always said too. Although I let players make Firearms B/R
rolls to see if they can remove "built-in" accessories without affecting
the weapon too much.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Drowning in the main-stream.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:43:19 +0100
MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 12:32/11 Jun 97...

> > No. Problems include wear on the weapon (bending forces on the barrel
> > that it was not designed to take) and, with some weapons and some loads,
> > a pronounced vertical smoke plume from the compensator, but a muzzle
> > compensator doesn't usually affect velocity: it acts on the gas after
> > the bullet leaves the barrel.
>
> What about noise factors?

Weapon noise seems to go sideways a lot more (at least in the AK-74), and
may be dangerous in situations like at firing ranges, where everyone is
side by side.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Drowning in the main-stream.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 16
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:21:55 -0500
> >He got 5 years in a military prison for it.

> Five years for losing a flash hider seems pretty extreme,
> though. I assume there were additional circumstances?

Of course there were. We'd just had a flash suppressor or
three ... sort of... fall off during the previously mentioned
rifle inspections... and we'd all been warned about the
consequences... Were you all aware that US Marines were
particularly pig-headed about the most silly things?

Cheers

Gossamer
Message no. 17
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shotguns and Recoil
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:18:13 -0700
| Of course there were. We'd just had a flash suppressor or
| three ... sort of... fall off during the previously mentioned
| rifle inspections... and we'd all been warned about the
| consequences... Were you all aware that US Marines were
| particularly pig-headed about the most silly things?

Marines !!!! Pig headed!?!?!?!?! <Bogle>

I'm shocked!

=)

-Caric

"I was NAKED!!!!!!!!!!!"
-Blackjack our Racoon Shaman when asked why he ran away from one
particular fight."

Further Reading

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