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Message no. 1
From: K. Suderman suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu
Subject: shotguns and shot
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 08:06:50 -0500
Okay, this is a rules question that has been troubling me for some time-
maybe someone has the answer...

When firing a shotgun with shot, power decreases by one for each increment
of <choke> meters past the first. If power goes to zero, the shot has
dispersed enough that it is no longer dangerous. Easy.
But what if the shot hits someone (with armor) in that last meter, i.e.
with a power of 1?
There are two interpretations:
1. Power is reduced to zero and the shot is unable to penetrate their armor.
2. Their armor reduces the TN for the damage-resistance test but, strictly
speaking, doesn't reduce the power- therefore, they must roll 2's (the
lowest possible TN).

Which one is correct?


When I ran the sawed-off-shotgun-toting gangers, I went with option 1 and
the runners were relatively safe. Oddly enough, my players objected to it,
saying that option 2 was correct. <<shrug>> Okay, you asked for it...
[In the end, it was a moot point because the players took each other down
with friendly fire. I was there and I still don't understand it...]

Keith

Keith Suderman
Florida State University
Department of Oceanography
850-980-3218
Message no. 2
From: Cole, Wade A. wcole@********.com
Subject: shotguns and shot
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:42:11 -0600
> -----Original Message-----
> From: K. Suderman [mailto:suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu]
> Subject: shotguns and shot
>
>
> Okay, this is a rules question that has been troubling me for
> some time-
> maybe someone has the answer...
>
> When firing a shotgun with shot, power decreases by one for
> each increment
> of <choke> meters past the first. If power goes to zero, the
> shot has
> dispersed enough that it is no longer dangerous. Easy.
> But what if the shot hits someone (with armor) in that
> last meter, i.e.
> with a power of 1?
> There are two interpretations:
> 1. Power is reduced to zero and the shot is unable to
> penetrate their armor.
> 2. Their armor reduces the TN for the damage-resistance test
> but, strictly
> speaking, doesn't reduce the power- therefore, they must roll
> 2's (the
> lowest possible TN).
>
> Which one is correct?
>
>
> When I ran the sawed-off-shotgun-toting gangers, I went with
> option 1 and
> the runners were relatively safe. Oddly enough, my players
> objected to it,
> saying that option 2 was correct. <<shrug>> Okay, you asked
> for it...
> [In the end, it was a moot point because the players
> took each other down
> with friendly fire. I was there and I still don't understand it...]
>
> Keith
>
> Keith Suderman
> Florida State University
> Department of Oceanography
> 850-980-3218
>
>
>
I would say option 2 as well. At that range the shot is about like
a BB pellet. You could still lose an eye. :)
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Message no. 3
From: Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject: shotguns and shot
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:48:29 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: K. Suderman <suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu>

> Okay, this is a rules question that has been troubling me for some time-
> maybe someone has the answer...
>
> When firing a shotgun with shot, power decreases by one for each increment
> of <choke> meters past the first. If power goes to zero, the shot has
> dispersed enough that it is no longer dangerous. Easy.
> But what if the shot hits someone (with armor) in that last meter, i.e.
> with a power of 1?

On p 117 it says "When the power reaches 0, the shot is considered
ineffective and no further effects are determined."

On p 113 it says (under "Damage Resistance Test"): The target number for
this test is the Power Rating of the atacking weapon...." (edit out rules
for armour) "...Treat an result less than 2 as 2."

Also, in the grenade section with the diagrams and explanation text they are
applying damage of 1S to the target in the diagram for 'blast in a confined
space' rules.

So option #2 was the right one, they resist the 1S damage as 2S

Augustus
Message no. 4
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: shotguns and shot
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:18:06 +0100
According to K. Suderman, on Fri, 03 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> When firing a shotgun with shot, power decreases by one for each increment
> of <choke> meters past the first. If power goes to zero, the shot has
> dispersed enough that it is no longer dangerous. Easy.
> But what if the shot hits someone (with armor) in that last meter, i.e.
> with a power of 1?
> There are two interpretations:
> 1. Power is reduced to zero and the shot is unable to penetrate their armor.
> 2. Their armor reduces the TN for the damage-resistance test but, strictly
> speaking, doesn't reduce the power- therefore, they must roll 2's (the
> lowest possible TN).
>
> Which one is correct?

The second one. Since the Power Level is higher than 0, there is still
damage potential, and so you need to roll against a TN of (1 - armor).

A rule I sometimes use (depending on how deadly I want to make firefights,
and whether I can be bothered to do the extra calculation) is that every two
points of armor over the Power Level give an extra die for damage
resistance. Thus, if you're facing a 1S shotgun "blast" while wearing an
armor jacket (Impact 3) you get (3 - 1) / 2 = 1 extra die. This doesn't
make much of a difference in most cases, but if you want to make, say,
insect spirits that bit tougher, it can be worth the bother ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The less of a life, the more mail you read.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 5
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: shotguns and shot
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:18:00 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, K. Suderman wrote:

> Okay, this is a rules question that has been troubling me for some time-
> maybe someone has the answer...

Option #2 is indeed correct. Even though the Power Level is a 1,
the minimum target number for a Body Resistance test is a 2. It's
directly analogous to having a 5/3 jacket and getting shot by a 6L light
pistol. You still have to make the roll, and 1's still fail.
As a side note, shotguns in general are an aspect of the game that
(I feel) need a few house rules to help them out. Minor tweaks, really,
but they make shotguns more realistic. If you're interested, drop me a
line and I'll pass them on.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.com> List Owner
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
DVixen <dvixen@****.com> Keeper of the FAQs
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 6
From: K. Suderman suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu
Subject: shotguns and shot
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 14:34:35 -0500
At 01:18 PM 11/3/00 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, K. Suderman wrote:
>
> > Okay, this is a rules question that has been troubling me for some time-
> > maybe someone has the answer...
>
> Option #2 is indeed correct.

Thanks everyone. My players will be *so* happy to know that shotguns
really are this deadly. :)

As a side note, shotguns in general are an aspect of the game that
>(I feel) need a few house rules to help them out. Minor tweaks, really,
>but they make shotguns more realistic. If you're interested, drop me a
>line and I'll pass them on.

Thanks Marc, I went to your website (it's bookmarked :) and checked it
out. I've already adopted your autofire rules, I'll add your shotgun
rules, too.

Keith


Keith Suderman
Florida State University
Department of Oceanography
850-980-3218
Message no. 7
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: shotguns and shot
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:50:20 -0500 (EST)
On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, K. Suderman wrote:

> As a side note, shotguns in general are an aspect of the game that
> >(I feel) need a few house rules to help them out. Minor tweaks, really,
> >but they make shotguns more realistic. If you're interested, drop me a
> >line and I'll pass them on.
>
> Thanks Marc, I went to your website (it's bookmarked :) and checked it
> out. I've already adopted your autofire rules, I'll add your shotgun
> rules, too.

Ah, but did you find my "New and Improved for SR3" edition?
Probably not, because I don't think I've gotten off my lazy ass and
finished it yet. :( I'm such a slacker. But here, in front of a live
studio audience, I give you a sneak preview of my updated and expanded SR3
house rules pertaining to shotguns. Enjoy.

Shotguns
Another annoying rule by FASA is that scattershot is treated
like flechette ammunition for the purposes of upping the damage code. Why?
For instance, if you get shot with scattershot before it has traveled a
sufficient distance to begin spreading, it's still one damage code higher
than a slug would have been, even though it's almost exactly the same mass
hitting you. And the argument that it hits more vital areas because of the
spread doesn't wash, because that's reflected in the lower target number.
As such, shotguns do the same damage regardless of whether they
are firing shot or slug munitions. Thus, a Remington Roomsweeper does 9M
standard when firing shot ammunition. Slug ammunition is resisted with
standard Ballistic armor, and scattershot is resisted with Ballistic or
double the target's Impact armor, whichever is higher (still like
flechette in this regard, reflecting the fact that pellets make poor
penetrators).
For all of the folks out there who want to rend and tear their
enemies with reckless abandon (and for all the munchkins lurking out there
- you know who you are), it is of note that I have included an ammunition
type called "scatter flechette" that fires a cluster of sharp projectiles,
rather than a single dart like normal flechette ammo. It offers the best
of both worlds (i.e. it spreads like shot as well as upping the Damage
Code like normal flechette). Similarly, it is reasonable to use things
like "scatter needler" (see the Neo-Anarchists' Guide to Real Life
sourcebook, p. 30), explosive slugs, armor-piercing slugs, or whatever.
Also, the scatter rates are a bit out of whack. Using the
scattershot rules as written (SR3, p. 177), buckshot can come blazing out
of the barrel in like a 30-degree cone. Having used shotguns, I can say
from experience that this is just plain wrong, even for sawed-offs.
Because of this, I have ruled that the shot must travel a number of meters
equal to twice the current choke setting before spreading another
half-meter in radius. This solves most of the unrealistic spread problems
found in the Shadowrun rules as published.
Another problem with shotguns is that the mechanics for them
break down at extreme ranges. The reason for this is that even after a
shot pattern has spread to a diameter of 7 or 8 meters, the Damage Code is
still a 2S. By SR3 canon rules, once the power level drops to zero the shot
is ineffective, but had the target been just a few meters closer, he or
she would have had to resist 1(2)S. This is a prett extreme jump from a
serious wound to nothing. So if you're not comfortable with a shotgun
still having a 2S damage code all the way out to its maximum range, you
can use a variation in the burst/autofire rules in reverse. Basically,
for every three drops in Power Level, there's a corresponding drop in
damage code. If the Damage Code drops to nothing, the shot becomes
ineffective (meaning that while it may hit, and while it may sting and/or
scare the shit our of your target, it won't do any actual damage). Either
that or the pattern has become so spread out that you may pass pellets on
either side of the target without hitting him or her.
For instance, consider the following situation: Using the above
described rules, a Defiance T-250 is firing shot ammunition. It's base
Damage Code is a 10S, and the shooter has set the choke to a 2. Recall
that the choke distance is doubled before spread is applied (as described
above), so shot travels 4 meters before spreading/increasing the chance to
hit/decreasing the power level. This shotgun's damage profile would look
like so:

Distance: < 4m 5-8m 9-12m 13-16m 17-20m 21-24m 25-28m 29-32m 33-36m >36m
Damage: 10S 9S 8S 7M 6M 5M 4L 3L 2L Ineffective

In this case, since the original Power Level started out at a
10, the spread rendered the shot ineffective even though the Power Level
for the next spread would still have been a 1. Had the original Power
Level been an 8S, the incremental drop in Power Level would have dropped
to 0 before the spread brought the damage down below Light. In either
instance, the shot is ineffective beyond that range (i.e. both reduction
mechanics still work as a limiting factor).
Obviously, setting the choke to a higher value keeps the shot
pattern more tightly grouped, which increases your ability to effectively
damage targets at longer ranges (which is pretty much exactly the case
with real shotguns).
It is often the case that more than one target will fall within
the radius of the shot pattern. In such cases, it is possible that more
than one target will be hit by the same shot. It should be pointed out,
however, other targets after the first must be declared secondary,
tertiary, etc. As such, they are subject to the +2 target number
modifier. The beauty of it is, you don't need to roll again, just look at
the numbers to see who got hit.
For example, "Shotgun Exley" decides to open up on a pair of
fleeing suspects with his Ithaca 990. He has his choke set at a 5. The
first target is 20 meters away, the second (a faster runner) is 30 meters
away. Exley declares that the closer suspect is his primary target
(meaning that the farther is his secondary target). For argument's sake
(xxxx), say that both are in medium range for the weapon (base target
number 5). His target is running (+3 modifier as described in Modifier
Changes above). Light conditions are not the best (because suspects never
flee where you can see them clearly), giving Exley another +2. But at
least he's unwounded, bringing the base target number to an 5 + 3 + 2 10. But the target
number drops, because of the spreading shot pattern.
At 20 meters, a choke setting of 5 has spread twice (or four times by the
canon rules - but they are unrealistically sucky, so we'll say it spreads
twice as per the house rule described above), meaning that the target
number to hit the first target has dropped to a 10 - 2 = 8. For the
second target, the shot pattern spreads again, dropping the target number
to a 7, but the +2 secondary target number modifier brings that back up to
a 9. Thus, Exley needs 8's to hit the primary target and 9's to hit the
secondary.
Exley rolls his Shotgun skill of 4 and dumps all 4 allowable
Combat Pool dice into the roll. He gets a 1,1,2,3,4,5,8, and a 9. This
means he has two successes on the first fleeing suspect (enough to stage
the damage up), and 1 success on the second. Unfortunately for Exley, the
second target is far enough away that the Damage Code actually drops below
the base by a level (as the pattern has spread 3 times).
Easy, simple, far more realistic.

Also keep in mind that shotguns can be used for suppression.
The mechanics are simple if you just apply the rules for shotguns to the
basic mechanics for suppressive fire (Cannon Companion p. xxxx). Work
shotguns just like other weapons, but rather than allocating all their
effect on a single 1m x 1m target area, use the spread to figure out how
big an area the shotgun's fire "covers" with suppression. Simply decrease
the power level (and damage code using the rule above) as normal.
Note that if the shot spreads to cover more than one 1m x 1m
area, you're likely to hit more folks, albeit with less damage. Further,
since it takes 1 round per meter to "walk your fire" between adjacent
suppressed areas, you may be able to get "overlap" of your patterns as you
walk your suppressive fire across an area (hey, nobody ever said that
autofire shotguns were a polite way to suppress the enemy).
In other words, it pays to stay the hell out of the suppressed
area. Autofire shotguns work extremely well for suppression fire, which is
precisely why such weapons as the H&K CAWS and Mark 3 Jackhammer were
designed.
Keep in mind, however, that with increased shot pattern comes
decreased damage. Very quickly, you'll run into a situation where the
power level has decreased to the point that whatever cover your target is
hiding behind will be unaffected by your attack (i.e. the Power Level will
drop below the Barrier Rating of the cover).

Because I'm a sick bastard, I also apply the drop in target
number (and power level, and damage code) when calculating if random folks
are hit by stray rounds, and what damage they take from those strays. Heh.
Blazing away with a shotgun is a remarkably good way to hit people you
didn't mean to. Sometimes spread is not your friend, and can result in
catching unintended civvies or poorly positioned team members in your shot
pattern. Like anything else, a shotgun has an intended use and may not be
appropriate for any given situation.
Finally, the last minor change stems from the fact that shotguns
are notoriously good at knocking people down (generally because of their
poor penetration characteristics). Because of this, shotguns do not halve
their Power Level for purposes of calculating knockdown target numbers.
By including just a few simple rules (less spreading, decreasing
damage code for three spreads, and area suppression) you can make shotguns
both more realistic and more effective for their intended role without
making them overly powerful.

Questions? Comments?

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.com> List Owner
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
DVixen <dvixen@****.com> Keeper of the FAQs
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 8
From: K. Suderman suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu
Subject: shotguns and shot
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 18:28:17 -0500
At 10:50 AM 11/6/00 -0500, you wrote:

> > As a side note, shotguns in general are an aspect of the game that
> > >(I feel) need a few house rules to help them out.
>
> Ah, but did you find my "New and Improved for SR3" edition?

<snip new and improved rules>

> Questions? Comments?
>
>Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Well... I like the realism, but I fear the complexity. Don't get me
wrong, they're not too complex and the logic is impeccable. However, my
group plays so rarely that we have to re-learn the ranged-combat modifiers
every time (and I don't think we've ever figured out spirit
combat...). <sigh> (I also have a couple of players who will *never* be
able to calculate target numbers, but that's another rant...)
I really like the reduction in wound level, though. Hopefully
I'll be the only one using a shotgun (my players are partial to sniper
rifles, used as clubs (no, I don't know why...)) and I can test these out...

Thanks much,

Keith


Keith Suderman
Florida State University
Department of Oceanography
850-980-3218
Message no. 9
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: shotguns and shot
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:40:52 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, K. Suderman wrote:

> > Ah, but did you find my "New and Improved for SR3" edition?
>
> <snip new and improved rules>
>
> Well... I like the realism, but I fear the complexity. Don't get me
> wrong, they're not too complex and the logic is impeccable. However, my
> group plays so rarely that we have to re-learn the ranged-combat modifiers
> every time

Gotcha. Yeah, Shadowrun's modifier-heavy mechanics makes that a
little tough. Still, it's a pretty simple rule, so give it a (buck) shot
and see what happens.

> I'll be the only one using a shotgun (my players are partial to sniper
> rifles, used as clubs (no, I don't know why...)) and I can test these out...

Ye gads. And I thought some of *my* past players were bad...

Marc

Further Reading

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