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Message no. 1
From: Travis Heldibridle hildy@********.net
Subject: shotguns using Shot ammo
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:48:36 -0400
The new guy speaks again,

I was reading over the rules for shotguns using non-slug ammo. I
understand how normal ranges apply to a slug, like any other bullet,
but how do you determine the base target number for a shotgun using
shot ammo? Then every so many meters (determined by choke) the power
and target number both reduce by 1 until the power is reduced completly
and then the shot is done. I understand the part about the power
reducing, but not sure I understand range. I'm going to include a basic
example here out of my head, and I would much appreciate it if someone
could confirm if I got this right, or if am wrong I would appreciate
some clarification.

For simplicity I did not even attempt to add in condition modifiers.

Kelly fires his shotgun with a shotgun rating of 4 and 3 dice from
Combat Pool. The shotgun currently has a choke of 5. His roll gains him
a 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 2, and 5.

There are three targets within the cone of Kelly's shot blast. Target A
is standing 4 Meters away (Short Range) The difficulty to hit Target A
is 4. Target B is standing 12 Meters away (Medium Range) The target
number to hit Target B is 5 - 2(the shot spread once at 5 meters and
again at 10) = 3. Finally Target C is 40 Meters away (Long Range). The
shot has now spread at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 meters.
Presuming there is any Power left to the shot the target number to hit
Target C is 6 - 8(I am presuming that the target number can not go
below 2. Am I right here?) = 2.

So Kelly achieved 4 successes against Target A, 5 against Target B, and
finally 6 against Target C.

Now each target goes on to make Dodge tests(4) and Damage Resistance
tests vs the force of the gun (making note of the rules governing
Flechette ammunition). From their the damage is staged for each of them
and the combat round continues.

Am I looking at this right? I really need to get the Shotgun rules down
as I know for a fact I have several players who enjoy using them in
other games.

Thank you so very much,
--Aristotle
"This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the
beauty of the baud." -- The Mentor, Hacker's Manifesto
Message no. 2
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: shotguns using Shot ammo
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:40:26 +0200
According to Travis Heldibridle, at 12:48 on 11 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> I was reading over the rules for shotguns using non-slug ammo. I
> understand how normal ranges apply to a slug, like any other bullet,
> but how do you determine the base target number for a shotgun using
> shot ammo? Then every so many meters (determined by choke) the power
> and target number both reduce by 1 until the power is reduced completly
> and then the shot is done.

Sounds about right, yes.

> Kelly fires his shotgun with a shotgun rating of 4 and 3 dice from
> Combat Pool. The shotgun currently has a choke of 5. His roll gains him
> a 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 2, and 5.
>
> There are three targets within the cone of Kelly's shot blast. Target A
> is standing 4 Meters away (Short Range) The difficulty to hit Target A
> is 4. Target B is standing 12 Meters away (Medium Range) The target
> number to hit Target B is 5 - 2(the shot spread once at 5 meters and
> again at 10) = 3.

This is correct, yes.

A little note: it's easier to simply divide the range by the choke
setting, round down, and use that as a modifier to Power Level and target
number. Thus, at 12 m it's going to be a -(12 / 5) = -2.1, rounding to -2.
Much easier to picture (for me, anyway) than the whole "stepped pyramid"
approach to shotgun blasts that FASA seems to favor.

> Finally Target C is 40 Meters away (Long Range). The shot has now
> spread at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 meters. Presuming there is
> any Power left to the shot the target number to hit Target C is 6 - 8(I
> am presuming that the target number can not go below 2. Am I right
> here?) = 2.

By the same rule as above, 40 / 5 = -8, so you'd apply a -8 to the TN and
a -8 to the Power Level. If the weapon had a base Power Level higher than
8, the shot would still cause damage. If the weapon's base Power Level is
8 or less, target C could not be hit at all, because the shot had no Power
left.

So, assuming the Power Level is 9+, yes, you'd apply a -8 to the TN and it
would become 6 - 8 = -2, but no TN can go below 2 (as you correctly
observed), so it stays at 2.

> So Kelly achieved 4 successes against Target A, 5 against Target B, and
> finally 6 against Target C.

Seems like it, yes.

> Now each target goes on to make Dodge tests(4) and Damage Resistance
> tests vs the force of the gun (making note of the rules governing
> Flechette ammunition). From their the damage is staged for each of them
> and the combat round continues.

Yep.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Another year and then you'll be happy.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: shotguns using Shot ammo
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:28:16 -0500
:Kelly fires his shotgun with a shotgun rating of 4 and 3 dice from
:Combat Pool. The shotgun currently has a choke of 5. His roll gains him
:a 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 2, and 5.
:
:There are three targets within the cone of Kelly's shot blast. Target A
:is standing 4 Meters away (Short Range) The difficulty to hit Target A
:is 4. Target B is standing 12 Meters away (Medium Range) The target
:number to hit Target B is 5 - 2(the shot spread once at 5 meters and
:again at 10) = 3. Finally Target C is 40 Meters away (Long Range). The
:shot has now spread at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 meters.
:Presuming there is any Power left to the shot the target number to hit
:Target C is 6 - 8(I am presuming that the target number can not go
:below 2. Am I right here?) = 2.
:So Kelly achieved 4 successes against Target A, 5 against Target B, and
:finally 6 against Target C.
:Now each target goes on to make Dodge tests(4) and Damage Resistance
:tests vs the force of the gun (making note of the rules governing
:Flechette ammunition). From their the damage is staged for each of them
:and the combat round continues.

All this is correct, except the dodge test. The poeple who are farrther
away have it even worser; not only are they easier to hit, but they have a
higher TN to dodge (+1 per level of sread- makes a tigh choke very useful).
They don't get much benefit from the power reduction if they don't have many
dice to resit dfmage with, either.
Theres a couple things we did in our game that helped this somewhat:
First, there is only one "primary target", who the shot must be
centered on. All others have the cummulative "+2 per addtional target"
penalty, starting with the closest being the first aditional target, etc.
Second, for shotgun blasts, normal armor provides addtional damage
resitance successes equal to the amount its approriate rating (ballistic or
twice impact) exceeds the shotguns power.

I personally feel the shotgun spread rules are unrealistically generous
(shots don't spead that much in real life, and if they did, skill would not
matter much aty all to thier use, so damage could not be staged up), but
with the above rules, they seem to work OK.


:Am I looking at this right? I really need to get the Shotgun rules down
:as I know for a fact I have several players who enjoy using them in
:other games.

:--Aristotle

I think other games use them rather differently. For a more realistic
effect, something along the lines of the suppresive fire rules might work
better (and don't evne TRY to figure out how to use a choked shotgun for
supressive fire in SR rules....)

Mongoose
Message no. 4
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: shotguns using Shot ammo
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:49:32 +0200
According to Mongoose, at 13:28 on 12 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> I think other games use them rather differently. For a more realistic
> effect, something along the lines of the suppresive fire rules might work
> better (and don't evne TRY to figure out how to use a choked shotgun for
> supressive fire in SR rules....)

Shouldn't be too difficult, and it would probably make the situation more
realistic than it is now.

How about this: the choke can be set as normal, which determines how wide
the blast will be at any particular point. For each target in the blast,
roll the shotgun's Power Level in dice against a TN 4. The number of
successes is the number of hits. Assume a shotgun blast is made up of a
number of 1L attacks equal to the Power Level of the weapon.

For example, a Mossberg CMDT has a Damage of 9S. With a choke of 5 at 17
meters range, its Power Level is reduced by 17 / 5 = 3.4, rounding to 3;
this gives a Power Level of 9 - 3 = 6. Thus, against a target at 17
meters, 6 dice are rolled. Assuming 4 successes, the damage would be 4M,
while with 6 successes it'd be 6S.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Another year and then you'll be happy.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: shotguns using Shot ammo
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:42:27 -0500
> I think other games use them rather differently. For a more realistic
> effect, something along the lines of the suppresive fire rules might work
> better (and don't evne TRY to figure out how to use a choked shotgun for
> supressive fire in SR rules....)

Shouldn't be too difficult, and it would probably make the situation more
realistic than it is now.

++++++++++++++
Sure, what you suggested (included below) could work OK for individual
blasts. I meant using multiple spread blasts over an area for actual
suprresive fire; THAT would get complicated (easiest to do each shot
seperately). Of course, there are no FA shotguns (in the canon, at least),
so thats not an issue, and the number of shots is likely to be small enough
for your method, or it could jut be handled by figuring the modified power
(for bursts) and then using your method. However, I don't think this would
be supressive fire, because its not SUSTAINED fire. Its looks like its
normal fire that removes skill entirley from the equation (which I'm not
sure is good, or bad- its seems right, given the FASA shotgun rules, but
wrong for RL shotgun use).

Mongoose
+++++++++++++


How about this: the choke can be set as normal, which determines how wide
the blast will be at any particular point. For each target in the blast,
roll the shotgun's Power Level in dice against a TN 4. The number of
successes is the number of hits. Assume a shotgun blast is made up of a
number of 1L attacks equal to the Power Level of the weapon.

For example, a Mossberg CMDT has a Damage of 9S. With a choke of 5 at 17
meters range, its Power Level is reduced by 17 / 5 = 3.4, rounding to 3;
this gives a Power Level of 9 - 3 = 6. Thus, against a target at 17
meters, 6 dice are rolled. Assuming 4 successes, the damage would be 4M,
while with 6 successes it'd be 6S.

Gurth@******.nl
Message no. 6
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: shotguns using Shot ammo
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:13:05 -0400 (EDT)
This is a little long, but if you want to use shotguns in your
campaign, you might want to have a look. I included examples to
illustrate the major points.

On Wed, 12 May 1999, Mongoose wrote:

> I personally feel the shotgun spread rules are unrealistically generous
> (shots don't spead that much in real life, and if they did, skill would not
> matter much aty all to thier use, so damage could not be staged up), but
> with the above rules, they seem to work OK.

Agreed. If you set a choke to 2 you get something like a
30-degree cone of blast coming out the muzzle of your shotgun, which just
doesn't happen in real life. As such, I double the choke distance before
applying the spread. So at a choke setting of 2 (maximum spread), the
shot travels 4 meters before spreading to a 1 meter diameter pattern.
This solves most of the unrealistic spread problems found in SR2.
Also, in my opinion and the opinion of other shotgun users I've
talked to, shot ammunition should *not* use flechette rules for
increasing the damage code. The combined mass of the shot pellets is
roughly equivalent (if not less than) a slug from the same shotgun. So
where is the increased damage coming from? Is it the spread, meaning that
you'll potentially catch more vulnerable areas of the target? Sorry,
Charlie, that mechanic is taken up in the reduced target number as the
shot spreads, which manifests in an increased number of successes.
Basically, there's no good reason for it, so we run shot as having the
same base damage code as a slug (though we did have it go off Ballistic or
double Impact, whichever is higher to reflect the fact that pellets make
poor penetrators).
Also, if you're not comfortable with a shotgun still having a 2S
damage code all the way out to its maximum range, you can use a variation
in the burst/autofire rules in reverse. Basically, for every three drops
in power level, there's a corresponding drop in damage code. If the
damage code drops to nothing, the shot becomes ineffective (meaning that
while it may hit, and while it may hurt/scare the shit our of your target,
it won't do any actual damage). Either that or the pattern has become so
spread out that you may pass pellets on either side of the target without
hitting him or her.
For instance, consider the following situation: Using the above
described rules, an Enfield AS-7 is firing shot ammunition. It's base
damage code is a 9S (IIRC), and the shooter has set the choke to a 2.
Recall that the choke distance is doubled before spread is applied (as
described above), so shot travels 4 meters before spreading/increasing the
chance to hit/decreasing the power level. This shotgun's damage profile
would look like so:

Distance: < 4m 5-8m 9-12m 13-16m 17-20m 21-24m 25-28m
Damage: 9S 8S 7S 6M 5M 4M 3L

Distance (cont): 29-32m 33-36m > 36m
Damage (cont): 2L 1(2)L Ineffective

Obviously, setting the choke to a higher value keeps the shot
pattern more tightly grouped, which increases your ability to effectively
damage targets at longer ranges (which is pretty much exactly the case
with real shotguns)
As Mongoose pointed out, however, other targets after the
first must be declared secondary, tertiary, etc. As such, they are
subject to the +2 target number modifier. The beauty of it is, you don't
need to roll again, just look at the numbers to see who got hit.
For example, "Shotgun Exley" decides to open up on a pair of
fleeing suspects with his Ithaca 990. He has his choke set at a 5. The
first target is 20 meters away, the second (a faster runner) is 30 meters
away. Exley declares that the closer suspect is his primary target
(meaning that the farther is his secondary target). For argument's
sake (and because I don't have my range table in front of me), say that
both are in medium range for the weapon (base target number 5).
His target is running (+2 or +3 depending on which rules you use
- we'll go off SR2/SR3 and say +2), bringing the base target number to a
7. Light conditions are fine, and Exley is unwounded. But the target
number drops, because of the spreading shot pattern. At 20 meters, a
choke setting of 5 has spread twice (or four times by the canon rules -
but they are unrealistically sucky, so we'll say it spreads twice as per
the house rule described above), meaning that the target number to hit the
first target has dropped to a 7 - 2 = 5. For the second target, the shot
pattern spreads again, dropping the target number to a 4, but the +2
secondary target number modifier brings that back up to a 6. Thus, Exley
needs 5's to hit the primary target and 6's to hit the secondary.
Exley rolls his Shotgun skill of 4 and dumps all 4 allowable
Combat Pool dice into the roll. He gets a 1,1,2,3,4,4,5, and a 9. This
means he has two successes on the first fleeing suspect (enough to stage
the damage up), and 1 success on the second. Unfortunately for Exley, the
second target is far enough away that the damage code actually drops below
the base by a level (as the pattern has spread 3 times).
Easy, simple, far more realistic.

Someone also proposed the concept of suppressive fire with
shotguns, but balked at the mechanics. But the mechanics are simple.
Work shotguns just like other weapons, but rather than allocating all
their effect on a single 1m x 1m target area, use the spread to figure out
how big an area the shotgun's fire "covers" with suppression. When
calculating the target number for suppression fire, apply the same -1 per
spread that you would normally. Similarly, decrease the power level (and
damage code if you use that house rule) as normal. Note that at a spread
of 1m in diameter, the shotgun is still covering the same area as normal
suppressive fire - but it covers it slightly more thoroughly as the
shooter gets a -1 to his suppression fire target numbers from the
spreading of the pattern. He's blanketing the area with shot rather than
piercing it with a comparatively small bullet hole.
Note that if the shot spreads to cover more than one 1m x 1m area,
you're likely to hit more folks, albeit with less damage. Further, since
it takes 1 round per meter to "walk your fire" between adjacent suppressed
areas, you may be able to get "overlap" of your patterns as you walk your
suppressive fire across an area (hey, nobody ever said that autofire
shotguns were a polite way to suppress the enemy).
Keep in mind, however, that with increased shot pattern comes
decreased damage. Very quickly, you'll run into a situation where the
power level has decreased to the point that whatever cover your target is
hiding behind will be unaffected by your attack (i.e. the power level
will drop below the Barrier Rating of the cover).

For instance, "Gunner Thompson" wants to lay down suppressive fire
on a doorway at the end of the hall to keep the sec-goons' heads down
while his buddies finish bypassing the maglock into the top-secret lab
beside them. He uses the rangefinder in his cybereyes to calculate the
distance (20 meters). Since it's a double doorway, he'd like to be able
to suppress the whole thing at once, because he doesn't know which
side the goons might be coming from. Fortunately, he's carrying a
Mossberg CMDT-SM. As long as his shot pattern covers 2m (the width of the
doorway), the GM rules that he doesn't have to split his shots to cover
different 1m x 1m sections of the doorway. As such, his pattern needs to
spread twice (to a diameter of 2m). So in order to spread twice over a
distance of 20m, he needs to set his choke to a 5 (or 10 by the sucky
canon rules), which he does using his cyberchoke. Heh.
He then opens up on the doorway with two bursts. Since the
Mossberg CMDT-SM is capable of burst fire, that allows Gunner to dump 6
rounds into his suppression fire, which will cover the doorway for the
next 10 phases (or until his next initiative pass under SR3). His target
number is a 4 modified by wounds and cover (movement mods don't apply to
suppressive fire). Fortunately, Gunner is unwounded. Cover is a slightly
different matter, and depends on how the goons expose themselves. Also,
the shot pattern has spread twice so as to cover the entire area, bring
the "to hit" target number down to a 2 plus cover mods.
So if any poor sucker steps fully out into that doorway (i.e.
takes no cover), Gunner will roll 6 dice (the number of rounds fired) with
a target number of 2 (the suppression target number). Every two successes
he gets count as a single round hitting. So Sec Goon A steps out like an
idiot, and Gunner rolls his dice, getting a 2,2,3,5,7,10. Youch! That's
three rounds hitting, which is a base of 9S reduced to 7S from drop in
power level due to spread, increased to 10D for three rounds (effectively
a burst) hitting the target. Double youch!
Had Goon A played it smart and taken partial cover by only
exposing part of himself in the doorway, Gunner's target number would have
been a 2 + 4 = 6. As such, only the 7 and 10 are successes, and Goon A
would have taken a simple one-round hit at 7S (9S - 2 for spread).
In other words, it pays to stay the hell out of the suppressed
area. Autofire shotguns work extremely well for suppression fire, which
is precisely why such weapons as the H&K CAWS and Mark 3 Jackhammer were
designed.

Because I'm a sick bastard, I also apply the drop in target number
(and power level, and damage code) when calculating if random folks are
hit by stray rounds, and what damage they take from those strays. Heh.
Blazing away with a shotgun is a remarkably good way to hit people you
didn't mean to. Sometimes spread is not your friend, and can result in
catching unintended civvies or poorly positioned team members in your shot
pattern. Like anything else, a shotgun has an intended use and may not be
appropriate for any given situation.

By including just a few simple rules (less spreading,
decreasing damage code for three spreads, and area suppression) you can
make shotguns both more realistic and more effective for their intended
role without making them overly powerful.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Message no. 7
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: shotguns using Shot ammo
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:19:59 -0700
> This is a little long, but if you want to use shotguns in your
>campaign, you might want to have a look. I included examples to
>illustrate the major points.

Good points.

> Also, in my opinion and the opinion of other shotgun users I've
>talked to, shot ammunition should *not* use flechette rules for
>increasing the damage code. The combined mass of the shot pellets is
>roughly equivalent (if not less than) a slug from the same shotgun. So
>where is the increased damage coming from? Is it the spread, meaning that

The more efficient transfer of kinetic energy to the target. This is the
same reason why frangible ammunition is more lethal than military ball
rounds.

A 10ga shotgun shell has a payload of about 45 grams. Assuming an impact
velocity of 300 meters/sec (a number I just invented; not based on firearm
tables) the total kinetic energy of the payload is 2045 Joules.

Now, a slug impacting a human body (cross section distance of 30
centimeters) will most likely travel all the way through. The linear energy
density of the slug is then 6816 Joules/meter. By contrast, shot will stop
with the first 3 centimeters or so of body (less for breastbone), giving it
a linear energy density a factor of 10 higher.

If the frontal diameter of the shotslug is 15 millimeters, the total area
of the slug is 176 mm^2. For the shotshell, assume (and this is far too
generous, in all likelihood) 50 1mm diamter steel balls. Total frontal area
~ 40 mm^2.

So, volume energy density for the shotshell is something like 40 times
higher than for the slug. Given that human tissues has an elasticity
factor, and thus requires a minimum energy density it is likely that the
shotshell will deposity more effective energy (energy density - elasticity)
and the total volume of wound channel will be greater.

Factors this back of the envelope calculation does not take into account:
deformation energy of lead buckshot, velocity decrease for buckshot due to
aerodynamic effects, overpenetration by the slug, physiological
effectiveness of one large wound channel vs. many smaller ones, varying
tissue densities, and probably a few others I'm not thinking of at the
moment.

Still, these deficits do not appear to mar the final conclusion: properly
designed shot ammunition is more effective at destroying flesh at close
range. Real world experience seems to bear this out.

> By including just a few simple rules (less spreading,
>decreasing damage code for three spreads, and area suppression) you can
>make shotguns both more realistic and more effective for their intended
>role without making them overly powerful.

I like them.

>Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about shotguns using Shot ammo, you may also be interested in:

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