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Message no. 1
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 00:08:04 -0700
> It's not drivel or filler. It's deliberate misdirection. It allows each GM
> to customize his campaign for his preferences and power level.
> It also keeps munchkins who read the books from knowing everything about
> what goes on in the game world.
>

So it is ALL misdirection..I don't buy that..And I D@*m sure wouldn't waste
any more of my hard earned cash in rule books full of that sort of thing
either if I believed it for a moment..Afterall, I buy the books so I can
run/play the same game as everyone else..Not so I will have to change
everything to fit a universe I created..If I want a totally unique
universe..I will start from scratch and do it all myself..I will grant that
SOME of it is misdirection..However, I would say on average..Oh say 4% to 6%
is deliberate misdirection..another 4% to 6% is accidental/ignorance inspired
misdirection..maybe 3% is filler..leaving aprox 89% to 85% as helpful info in
one way or another..

> This whole debate has really piqued my interest,

I peaked a couple of days ago..

> and I'm hoping we get some
> response from FASAMike,


It would be nice..I am going to send in my 2 nuyen worth as well..

> or even better an Astral Plain Sourcebook!
>

It would be nice..but I don't see that happening..afterall Awakenings hasn't
been out for all that long..
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 2
From: AHayes@*******.com.au
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 16:54:28 +301000
> > and I'm hoping we get some
> > response from FASAMike,
>
>
> It would be nice..I am going to send in my 2 nuyen worth as well..

People!

Is it wise to blast the FASA guys with a zillion questions direct? (The
only
reason I ask is the last response I read from Tom Dowd where he asked not to
be subscribed to many mailing lists due to lack of time, etc, etc...)

We have (already) one person who has sent a bunch of questions to
FASAMike (who seems to
respond pretty well, based on prev. exp). Why don't we present questions
in a reasonably ordered fashion
so as to not kill off any chance of a reply?

Just a thought.
Cya.
Andrew.
Message no. 3
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 03:46:16 -0500 (EST)
>So it is ALL misdirection..I don't buy that..And I D@*m sure wouldn't waste
>any more of my hard earned cash in rule books full of that sort of thing
>either if I believed it for a moment..Afterall, I buy the books so I can
>run/play the same game as everyone else..Not so I will have to change
>everything to fit a universe I created..If I want a totally unique
>universe..I will start from scratch and do it all myself..I will grant that
>SOME of it is misdirection..However, I would say on average..Oh say 4% to 6%
>is deliberate misdirection..another 4% to 6% is accidental/ignorance inspired
>misdirection..maybe 3% is filler..leaving aprox 89% to 85% as helpful info in
>one way or another..

So play it that way, but realistically there's no way you're ever gonna be
playing SR the same as "everyone else."
There are so many unanswered questions, gaps in knowledge, and again,
deliberate misdirections that it's highly unlikely two people would ever
develop convergent game worlds.
Sure you can come close, and I'm nit picking here.
I still have to say that most of the sidebar comments are misdir.
Sure, a lot of it is useful as explanations, but FASA comes right out and
says that that's for each GM to decide.
Seen the Denver sourcebooks?
We decided that there wasn't a free spirit of Denver cruising around the
astral. Didn't particularly move us, so we axed it. No big deal, that's the
way these games work.
Trying to play an "official" game, or the same as everyone else is not only
impossible, it would be very, very dull.
By misdirection I don't mean filler, it's more along the lines of optional
information.
It might be true, or it might be someone's costly mistake. That's part of
the color of SR. The players realistically DON'T KNOW MUCH about their game
world, other than what directly affects them.
If we really want to nitpick, think about the whole immortal elves concept.
Most of this info has been presented as sidebars. I've run into a lot of
players who hate the concept, and have ditched it.
Misdirection? Oh yeah!
Start saying that it's all official rules material and you get some awfully
odd stuff floating around.


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"I'm gonna buckle you're swash like it's never been buckled before!"
Message no. 4
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 04:03:03 -0500 (EST)
>players who hate the concept, and have ditched it.
>Misdirection? Oh yeah!
>Start saying that it's all official rules material and you get some awfully
>odd stuff floating around.
>
>
>
Also, I would like to add, not only that, but you get some serious
contradictions. Often, the side bar coversations disagree with each other.
And if it's ALL official, then what's going on? For a good example, read
the Dunkelzahn book. I think if more than 2 or 3 people agree with each
other on ANYTHING in there, then I need to go back to kindergarten....

Not a flame, but a small glow...;-)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Stay Cool, Stay Paranoid
Message no. 5
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
Subject: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 08:19:28 -0400
>>> GRANITE <granite@**.net> 09/09/96 03:08am >>>
> It's not drivel or filler. It's deliberate misdirection. It
allows each GM
> to customize his campaign for his preferences and
power level.
> It also keeps munchkins who read the books from
knowing everything about
> what goes on in the game world.
>

So it is ALL misdirection..I don't buy that..And I D@*m
sure wouldn't waste any more of my hard earned
cash in rule books full of that sort of thing either if I
believed it for a moment..Afterall, I buy the books so I
can run/play the same game as everyone else..Not
so I will have to change everything to fit a universe I
created..If I want a totally unique universe..I will start
from scratch and do it all myself..I will grant that
SOME of it is misdirection..However, I would say on
average..Oh say 4% to 6% is deliberate
misdirection..another 4% to 6% is accidental/ignorance
inspired misdirection..maybe 3% is filler..leaving
aprox 89% to 85% as helpful info in one way or
another..
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Not to be picky but most of those books are "Source
books" not "rule books". The only real rule book is
the original SR2 book. All the rest are expansions,
additions and clarifications to the main book.

You're probably right that most of it is true and
accurate descriptions. But how do you as a GM know
which of the comments are true and which are fake?
how can you tell the 85-89% of the true from the fake
or exaggeration? I generally look to see how much
information is in the book before I buy. I bought Aztlan
because I need info and possible ideas for runs from
Texas into Aztlan territory. I don't own corp security,
bug city or a few others because I didn't like or want
the info/rules that they have. If I had a decker in the
group I would buy VR2. I WISH they would come out
with a new RBB to scrap the old system they had.
Those books I consider more of a "rule book" than the
Awakenings book. Even shadow tech and SSC have
more of a "rules" bent that a "story telling" bent such
as Cybertech.
Message no. 6
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:13:26 -0500 (EST)
>I WISH they would come out with a new RBB to scrap the old system they had.

They are it's supposed to be out soon. I just caught the announcement this
August. (Belive it was in the Dunkelzhan book)


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"I'm gonna buckle you're swash like it's never been buckled before!"
Message no. 7
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:40:30 -0500 (EST)
You're probably right that most of it is true and
>accurate descriptions. But how do you as a GM know
>which of the comments are true and which are fake?
>how can you tell the 85-89% of the true from the fake
>or exaggeration? I generally look to see how much
>information is in the book before I buy. I bought Aztlan
>because I need info and possible ideas for runs from
>Texas into Aztlan territory. I don't own corp security,
>bug city or a few others because I didn't like or want
>the info/rules that they have. If I had a decker in the
>group I would buy VR2. I WISH they would come out
>with a new RBB to scrap the old system they had.
>Those books I consider more of a "rule book" than the
>Awakenings book. Even shadow tech and SSC have
>more of a "rules" bent that a "story telling" bent such
>as Cybertech.
>
>
Use whatever you want. Make up whatever you want. It's your game, and
guess what? You're the God of your universe! These books are written to
keep the players in the dark. Read the novels. In none of the novels does
a single Runner EVER know everything that is going on around them.

Of course, making stuff up or changing a "set" plot line or subject is also
a great way to throw off those guys who have read EVERY game book, source
book, novel, unofficial release, played all the available video games, etc.,
etc. It really throws them for a loop.:)

Also, by having alternative and letting you pick and choose, it allows you
creative control. I don't think the game would be much fun if everything
was set in stone... Half the fun My main character in the game I play in is
exploring the expanding and unexplored boundaries taht FASA opens. Who
cares that there is no book detaioling the Horrors yet? We're already
dealing with them slowly but surely! Don't let the books rule your game,
YOU should rule your game...

And one last time for everyone... The sidebar comments? They might be the
truth, every last contradictory statement. OR, they might all be lies...
The only way to tell is to check them out as a GM and Players and find out
what the truth is for you...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 8
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:02:31 -0500 (EST)
>>I WISH they would come out with a new RBB to scrap the old system they had.
>
>They are it's supposed to be out soon. I just caught the announcement this
>August. (Belive it was in the Dunkelzhan book)
>
Yeah, Riggers 2.0 I believe it's called... But not positive...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 9
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 18:06:31 -0700
AHayes@*******.com.au wrote:
> Is it wise to blast the FASA guys with a zillion questions direct?

Oh..I say a hearty yea, to this..afterall they are supposed to have all the
answers..right..

(The
> only
> reason I ask is the last response I read from Tom Dowd where he asked not to
> be subscribed to many mailing lists due to lack of time, etc, etc...)
> We have (already) one person who has sent a bunch of questions to
> FASAMike (who seems to
> respond pretty well, based on prev. exp).


Well..I do understand that the folk at FASA can be busy poeple..However, FASA
is dependant on the money you and I and everyone else puts into purchasing
the books and sets they put out..In order to get the kinds of things on the
shelves that we want to buy sometimes it is necessary to shout in the ears of
those that produce these things..It turns out benificial to all..We get the
sorts of things we want they get our money...Everyone is happy..
As for them being too busy to give us a little feedback on our
inquiries..well If they want us to loose interest and become disatisfied..Oh,
well..I suppose I can rent a movie..or maybe switch games to a product that
is written more concisely so as to not bring up this sort of titanic debate
over a bacteria, or to a company that gives more appreciation to those who
pay their bills..I really do not think it is asking too much..And if FASAMike
gets a full E-mail box once in a while, such is the price of being at the top
of the food chain..so to speak..

Why don't we present questions
> in a reasonably ordered fashion
> so as to not kill off any chance of a reply?


I believe that is what we are trying to do..But instead of one person trying
to paraphrase the thoughts of all a few of us will put the question to him
ourselves..It isn't as though we will be trying to get him into a debate..we
are simply asking who is officially correct..Since as everyone knows there
are no game cops that go around to check to see if you are playing the game
in a certain wa..well except maybe at GamesWorkShop or maybe T$R... ;)
If this kills off any chance for a reply...so be it I will dump all of my
gaming stuff and keep my money and my time..
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 10
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 22:15:29 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> So play it that way, but realistically there's no way you're ever gonna be
> playing SR the same as "everyone else."


Oh..I realise this..However, I like to GM in Cons..I will be going to one in
FL the first part of JAN...I like to run a game that anyone who joins in will
-for the most part- know what the rules are to begin with..none of those home
grown "Well this is the way I do it because I don't like the way it is in the
rules." stuff..This is why I use what is presented as much as possible...If
it appears in one of the gaming products then...

> There are so many unanswered questions, gaps in knowledge, and again,
> deliberate misdirections that it's highly unlikely two people would ever
> develop convergent game worlds.


True..but similar one..You bet..That is the sort of thing I shoot for...

> Sure you can come close, and I'm nit picking here.
> I still have to say that most of the sidebar comments are misdir.
> Sure, a lot of it is useful as explanations, but FASA comes right out and
> says that that's for each GM to decide.


Yes, that is true as well FASA does say that..However, that is your GM choice
to concider the sidebar stuff to be mostly hot electrons...I look on it as
another source of clarifications as to exactly what did they mean when they
said that..


> Seen the Denver sourcebooks?


Yup..I helped run the first FASA official type tourneyment at GenCon for
the Denver boxed set..I thought it was kind of a pain...But boy did we have
fun running the players through it.. :)

> Trying to play an "official" game, or the same as everyone else is not only
> impossible, it would be very, very dull.


Nothing is impossible..And I am rarely dull...Well mostly rarely..well ok
sometimes I can be dull..But not when I am GMing...

> Misdirection? Oh yeah!
> Start saying that it's all official rules material and you get some awfully
> odd stuff floating around.
>

Odd stuff floating around??Orks and Trolls are normal?? :)
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 11
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 22:15:55 -0700
Jeffrey Riordan wrote:
> Not to be picky but most of those books are "Source
> books" not "rule books". The only real rule book is
> the original SR2 book. All the rest are expansions,
> additions and clarifications to the main book.
>

Well there goes another nit..hurry grab it..Oops, sorry..my sarcasm leaked
out there for a second..If a *source* book has even 1 rule in it I call it a
*rule* book as these books contain rules..As for the original I refer to that
one as the *core* rule book..as it contains the core system of rules the
gaming universe is built upon..and what are all these expansions,
clarifications and additions..but expansions, clarifications and additions to
the *rules*...

> But how do you as a GM know
> which of the comments are true and which are fake?

I read them all..not discounting anything until I find a conflict of some
sort..Then something has to go..I make a not of some sort and go on [this
keeps me consistant]..if a sidebar comment sounds as though the poster is
unsure..it goes on the I doubt it list..Until I run into something that
forces the issue..

> I generally look to see how much
> information is in the book before I buy.


Not a bad idea..I however, have this afliction..I am..well I'm a
collecter..there I said it..I cannot help the urge to buy everything until I
have the whole set..The biggest reason I stay away from Magic cards, I might
add..I would go broke trying to get all of the stupid things..So, anyway, I
end up with even the cruddiest if the supplements....

> If I had a decker in the
> group I would buy VR2.


I haven't read the whole thing yet..But so far I really like the things I
have seen in it..It seems a whole lot simpler..of course I haven't had to use
it yet either...

> I WISH they would come out
> with a new RBB to scrap the old system they had.


As others have said..It's a comin'...From what I recall It is supposed to be
out in late '97 and it is supposed to have new rules that are similar to
those for creating a 'Mech in BattleTech for SR vehicles...

> ......have
> more of a "rules" bent that a "story telling" bent such
> as Cybertech.

True..it is a bit dissapointing..but then in the story type you have to take
*more* of what is presented in story format as gospel than normal since there
is less in the GM section than there should be..FASA ARE YOU LISTENING????
You are creating work where there shouldn't have to be work..I for one do not
like it...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 12
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 01:19:31 -0500 (EST)
>And one last time for everyone... The sidebar comments? They might be the
>truth, every last contradictory statement. OR, they might all be lies...
>The only way to tell is to check them out as a GM and Players and find out
>what the truth is for you...:)

Yeah, I guess I went a little too far by saying that the sidebars were ALL
misdirection.
That's a little extreme. (What can I say? I'm an extreme kinda guy!) :-)
Maybe a better way to put it would be that the sidebars are all optional truth.
If you like the concept, it's true. If you don't like it, then it doesn't exist.


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"I'm gonna buckle you're swash like it's never been buckled before!"
Message no. 13
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 01:27:11 -0500 (EST)
>It isn't as though we will be trying to get him into a debate..we
>are simply asking who is officially correct..Since as everyone knows there
>are no game cops that go around to check to see if you are playing the game
>in a certain wa..well except maybe at GamesWorkShop or maybe T$R... ;)

Definately at Games Workshop, TSR's are a possibility, but they are so
sneaky they're more along the lines of an X-File. :-)

>If this kills off any chance for a reply...so be it I will dump all of my
>gaming stuff and keep my money and my time..

Little extreme don't you think?
Sounds like you're already petering out on RPG's and looking for an excuse
to bail . . .


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"I'm gonna buckle you're swash like it's never been buckled before!"
Message no. 14
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 01:31:56 -0500 (EST)
>Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>> So play it that way, but realistically there's no way you're ever gonna be
>> playing SR the same as "everyone else."
>
>Oh..I realise this..However, I like to GM in Cons..I will be going to one in
>FL the first part of JAN...I like to run a game that anyone who joins in will
>-for the most part- know what the rules are to begin with..none of those home
>grown "Well this is the way I do it because I don't like the way it is in the
>rules." stuff..This is why I use what is presented as much as possible...If
>it appears in one of the gaming products then...

Sounds reasonable. And I can see the need for a semi-cohesive rule base.
Looks like FAB really throws Con players a curveball . . .

>> Seen the Denver sourcebooks?
>
>Yup..I helped run the first FASA official type tourneyment at GenCon for
>the Denver boxed set..I thought it was kind of a pain...But boy did we have
>fun running the players through it.. :)

I agree. Denver is one messed up place. I salute you for your efforts in
running there!

>> Misdirection? Oh yeah!
>> Start saying that it's all official rules material and you get some awfully
>> odd stuff floating around.
>>
>Odd stuff floating around??Orks and Trolls are normal?? :)

Speaking as a RL Troll, I'd say I'm fairly normal ;-)


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"I'm gonna buckle you're swash like it's never been buckled before!"
Message no. 15
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 01:39:07 -0500 (EST)
>Not a bad idea..I however, have this afliction..I am..well I'm a
>collecter..there I said it..I cannot help the urge to buy everything until I
>have the whole set..The biggest reason I stay away from Magic cards, I might
>add..I would go broke trying to get all of the stupid things..So, anyway, I
>end up with even the cruddiest if the supplements....

Got a bad case of that myself, and not enough sense to avoid MtG! :-(
Wish I had avoided DMZ (Remember that 1st edition LOSER?!

>> If I had a decker in the
>> group I would buy VR2.
>
>I haven't read the whole thing yet..But so far I really like the things I
>have seen in it..It seems a whole lot simpler..of course I haven't had to use
>it yet either...

They did simplify things some, but I have run into a problem. After a
certain level, and with the right mix of programs, two deckers can no longer
really affect each other!
With an even match of programs (attack vs. defense) It becomes a big stand off.
I had to physically crash the system to end a fight. Neither decker could
gain on the other. They were just rolling dice, and negating each other's
damage.
VR2.0 blows vr1 out of the water, but it still isn't enough. The system
still bogs down too much for my tastes.

>> I WISH they would come out
>> with a new RBB to scrap the old system they had.
>
>As others have said..It's a comin'...From what I recall It is supposed to be
>out in late '97 and it is supposed to have new rules that are similar to
>those for creating a 'Mech in BattleTech for SR vehicles...

That sounds very good! The mech building rules are easy to follow, and make
very balanced machines. RBB2 would be much improved by such a system!


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"I'm gonna buckle you're swash like it's never been buckled before!"
Message no. 16
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 00:17:19 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> Little extreme don't you think?
> Sounds like you're already petering out on RPG's and looking for an excuse
> to bail . . .
>

What can I say I'm an extreme kind of guy..HHmmmm..I seem to rememgber that
from somewhere else..No but, really I believe the service it Extremely
important..I will pay more for an item if I get better service for the extra
I pay..It is like leaving a tip after a meal at a fine dining
establishment..I do not tip according to the value of the meal I purchased I
tip accordning to the service I received..And yes I can be pretty extreme..As
a matter of fact I plan to travel from Colorado to Florida so I can GM in a
Con in Orlando..I love to GM..right now I do not have a group..:( I have been
trying to get some of the guys I work with interested but every time I get 2
or more of them together we end up going fishing..My only hope is for the
weather to turn cold... :)

>
> Got a bad case of that myself, and not enough sense to avoid MtG! :-(
> Wish I had avoided DMZ (Remember that 1st edition LOSER?!
>

Yup, I have a box of that..I have never even taken the counters apart...

> VR2.0 blows vr1 out of the water, but it still isn't enough. The system
> still bogs down too much for my tastes.
>

I will have to remember that...

> That sounds very good! The mech building rules are easy to follow, and make
> very balanced machines. RBB2 would be much improved by such a system!
>

Yea, it is a system that they have already had years to work the bugs out
of..I personally have had no experience with it. But, I have heard good
things about it..I came over to FASA way too late for that colecting
affliction of mine..I limit myself to SR and EarthDawn..I am safer that
way...

> Sounds reasonable. And I can see the need for a semi-cohesive rule base.
> Looks like FAB really throws Con players a curveball . . .
>

It gives me shivers to think of all the different comments at a convention if
FAB got used....

> I agree. Denver is one messed up place. I salute you for your efforts in
> running there!
>

Well I'll tell you I haven't been back since.. ;) Not to the SR Denver anyway
..Although, I have seen some raised topographical maps of Colorado and some
of just the Denver area..I have been thinking of picking a couple of these up
and altering them so they conform with the Denver of SR..It is amazing what a
little paint can do...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 17
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 03:42:50 -0500 (EST)
Steven Tinner Wrote:
>Speaking as a RL Troll, I'd say I'm fairly normal ;-)
>
>
>
I'm a RL Ork, but I know I'm not normal... And I'm not so sure about our
friend the Troll there, either...:)

All you metahuman spike babies out there in the Real World!

Let the world hear your cries of: <insert interesting quote here>




Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 18
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:03:07 +0100
Steven A. Tinner said on 13:13/ 9 Sep 96...

> >I WISH they would come out with a new RBB to scrap the old system they had.
>
> They are it's supposed to be out soon. I just caught the announcement this
> August. (Belive it was in the Dunkelzhan book)

I thought FASA's release schedule said it was planned for mid to late next
year... Maybe a good title for it would be "Rigging Short", seeing that
we've been hearing about this RBB 2 for almost a year now? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I swore I'd never ever be like him...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 19
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:03:07 +0100
Steven A. Tinner said on 1:39/10 Sep 96...

> They did simplify things some, but I have run into a problem. After a
> certain level, and with the right mix of programs, two deckers can no longer
> really affect each other!
> With an even match of programs (attack vs. defense) It becomes a big stand off.
> I had to physically crash the system to end a fight. Neither decker could
> gain on the other. They were just rolling dice, and negating each other's
> damage.

That's the same thing I found out during one of the few runs I allowed a
decker character (the adventure in NAN 1). The PC decker kept firing
combat programs at the bad guy NPC, and he did the same thing back, and
nobody took damage from it. It just turned into rolling dice, and more
dice, and even more dice, and then just a few more for good measure. I
think in the end one of the two had suffered a Light wound and the other
had nothing.

> >As others have said..It's a comin'...From what I recall It is supposed to be
> >out in late '97 and it is supposed to have new rules that are similar to
> >those for creating a 'Mech in BattleTech for SR vehicles...
>
> That sounds very good! The mech building rules are easy to follow, and make
> very balanced machines. RBB2 would be much improved by such a system!

I don't think it would -- look at the way a BattleMech is designed. About
the other way round than you do it IRL, if you ask me. First you set an
absolute maximum tonnage, and then you go fill it up. This makes it easier
on game stats designers, but not really realistic, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I swore I'd never ever be like him...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 20
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:39:18 -0700
GRANITE wrote:
<SNIP>
> > I generally look to see how much
> > information is in the book before I buy.
>
> Not a bad idea..I however, have this afliction..I am..well I'm a
> collecter..there I said it..
<SNIP>
>..So, anyway, I
> end up with even the cruddiest if the supplements....

Don't feel bad, Granite. Me too. I can't rest unless I have the entire
S/R library. 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, Novels...you name it. 'Course I
came out with a clever idea of how to not take the hit in my wallet as
badly. If my players find a S/R item on the shelf before I do and pick
it up to add to the GM's library they get a karma reward. (Modules = 8,
Source Books = 12-15 depending, Novels = 5). Since they aren't released
all that often, it's not like the characters get truckloads of karma out
of game play, but I consider the books adding to the game so it seems
justified.

> > If I had a decker in the
> > group I would buy VR2.
>
> I haven't read the whole thing yet..But so far I really like the things I
> have seen in it..It seems a whole lot simpler..of course I haven't had to use
> it yet either...

I haven't read it all either, our group uses NPC's for most of it's
decking needs. (Granted they pay through their bio-ware nostrils for it
;o) But the rules do seem to make decking less complicated and a whole
lot quicker. Also, I love the optional SOTA rules...and the Otaku look
like an interesting twist on the decker archetypes.


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 21
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:44:31 -0600 (MDT)
Loki wrote:
|
|came out with a clever idea of how to not take the hit in my wallet as
|badly. If my players find a S/R item on the shelf before I do and pick
|it up to add to the GM's library they get a karma reward. (Modules = 8,
|Source Books = 12-15 depending, Novels = 5). Since they aren't released
|all that often, it's not like the characters get truckloads of karma out
|of game play, but I consider the books adding to the game so it seems
|justified.

I give 'em karma equal to the dollar value of the product. That way I
don't have to worry about getting anything used :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 22
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 20:11:40 -0500
At 06:06 PM 9/9/96 -0700, you wrote:
>If this kills off any chance for a reply...so be it I will dump all of my
>gaming stuff and keep my money and my time..

You know, if you do, I'll gladly buy a copy of Lone Star off of you. :)

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"We were told to turn it down, stuff got broken, and everyone got naked. It
was a successful party."
-Marcus "DoubleDaves will have to name one of their stores after me" Drew.
Message no. 23
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 02:36:03 -0500 (EST)
>> > If I had a decker in the
>> > group I would buy VR2.
>>
>> I haven't read the whole thing yet..But so far I really like the things I
>> have seen in it..It seems a whole lot simpler..of course I haven't had to use
>> it yet either...
>
>I haven't read it all either, our group uses NPC's for most of it's
>decking needs. (Granted they pay through their bio-ware nostrils for it
>;o) But the rules do seem to make decking less complicated and a whole
>lot quicker. Also, I love the optional SOTA rules...and the Otaku look
>like an interesting twist on the decker archetypes.

Otaku are a fun one.
They don't get as abuseively powerful as deckers can. Plus any damage is
damage to the meat brain, so they tend to be more cautious.


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"Help! The toad is kicking my butt!"
Message no. 24
From: "Galen \"Marphod\" Silversmith" <argentum@****.isca.uiowa.edu>
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 02:11:31 -0500
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> Otaku are a fun one.
> They don't get as abuseively powerful as deckers can. Plus any damage is
> damage to the meat brain, so they tend to be more cautious.
>
>
I absolutely *HATE* how FASA's done the Otaku. After the teaser in
Denver, I was expecting so much more, more along the lines of true shaman
with a totem of the matrix. (or very WEIRD shaman, with a totem of the
matrix) and a much nicer blend of the Arts of Magic and Matrix.

Well, maybe I don;t hate it, I just think FASA fell short of their
potential for the archetype design.

Or, an even nastier idea. Tutor *IS* the Deep Resonance. Or similar to it.
Or perhaps, born from it...

*thinks evil and new ways to torture PCs*


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galen Silversmith "Please relax and enjoy your shoes"--DNA
galens@*********.org argentum@****.isca.uiowa.ede galen-silversmith@*****.edu
http://www.isca.uiowa.edu/users/galen-silversmith/
"May the ducks of your life quack ever harmoniously"--Andromeda Yelton
2.xx GCS/ED/M/S/U/O d++>-(--) H+ s--:+ g?>+ p? au a-->- w++ v?*+ c++(++++)
UL++++S++>H++++ P+>+++ L+(++)>+++ 3+>- E H++(+) K- !W>--- M+>-- V(-)
-op+ Y+>++
______ t+ 5+ j R++ G++ tv+ b+ D B--- e+ u* h! f?- r-- n+(--) y?
__\___ / Don't tease or feed the straight people SilenceÞath
\ // If space and time are curved, where do all the straight people
\ // come from? Bi, Pagan, And Proud!
\/ ListManager:death-and-pineapples@******.com
Message no. 25
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:55:21 +0100
Steven Ratkovich said on 3:42/10 Sep 96...

> All you metahuman spike babies out there in the Real World!
>
> Let the world hear your cries of: <insert interesting quote here>

"You might be an immortal elf if..." anyone? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I swore I'd never ever be like him...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 26
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 17:11:13 EST
--------------------------------------------


%>> > If I had a decker in the
%>> > group I would buy VR2.
%>>
%>> I haven't read the whole thing yet..But so far I really like the things I
%>> have seen in it..It seems a whole lot simpler..of course I haven't had to
%use >> it yet either...
>
%>I haven't read it all either, our group uses NPC's for most of it's
%>decking needs. (Granted they pay through their bio-ware nostrils for it
%>;o) But the rules do seem to make decking less complicated and a whole
%>lot quicker. Also, I love the optional SOTA rules...and the Otaku look
%>like an interesting twist on the decker archetypes.

%Otaku are a fun one.
%They don't get as abuseively powerful as deckers can. Plus any damage is
%damage to the meat brain, so they tend to be more cautious.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Pardon me but a good otaku that has had time to program and some Karma is
WAY more powerful than a decker, and he doesn't have to throw away his
fairlight every 4 years because of SOTA.
Ferri
Message no. 27
From: "Galen \"Marphod\" Silversmith" <argentum@****.isca.uiowa.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:32:01 -0500
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Ferri Pagano wrote:
> %Otaku are a fun one.
> %They don't get as abuseively powerful as deckers can. Plus any damage is
> %damage to the meat brain, so they tend to be more cautious.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Pardon me but a good otaku that has had time to program and some Karma is
> WAY more powerful than a decker, and he doesn't have to throw away his
> fairlight every 4 years because of SOTA.

True, but how many PC's LIVE for four game years? In my experience, not
bloody many. Hell, my current group of PCs shouldn;t have lived pass the
first combat in PeaceMaker (from NAN vol 1). They were bloody lucky the
Shaman had Lock to buy a few turns...

Although, I was kinda amused. THey were being chased by the citymaster,
in a van, and instead of the shaman summoning a spirit with movement or
acident powers, she was shooting, at a citymaster, with a light pistol...


Sooooo: How do you GMs out there not die laughing at times like that?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galen Silversmith "Please relax and enjoy your shoes"--DNA
galens@*********.org argentum@****.isca.uiowa.ede galen-silversmith@*****.edu
http://www.isca.uiowa.edu/users/galen-silversmith/
"May the ducks of your life quack ever harmoniously"--Andromeda Yelton
2.xx GCS/ED/M/S/U/O d++>-(--) H+ s--:+ g?>+ p? au a-->- w++ v?*+ c++(++++)
UL++++S++>H++++ P+>+++ L+(++)>+++ 3+>- E H++(+) K- !W>--- M+>-- V(-)
-op+ Y+>++
______ t+ 5+ j R++ G++ tv+ b+ D B--- e+ u* h! f?- r-- n+(--) y?
__\___ / Don't tease or feed the straight people SilenceÞath
\ // If space and time are curved, where do all the straight people
\ // come from? Bi, Pagan, And Proud!
\/ ListManager:death-and-pineapples@******.com
Message no. 28
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: sidebars and trainingwheels -Reply
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:15:16 -0700
Loki wrote:
> Don't feel bad, Granite. Me too. I can't rest unless I have the entire
> S/R library.


Oh, I don't..I simply realise my mania and stay away from stuff like those
silly card games that would be mearly a permenant source of frusteration to
me...

> If my players find a S/R item on the shelf before I do and pick
> it up to add to the GM's library they get a karma reward.


I do like this idea..The player gets rewarded in more that simple karma
though..the player is also rewarded with a richer game universe, and the GM
doesn't have to bear the financial burden all by himself..I will have to try
and do this when I start my new group..

Thomas Deeny wrote:
> You know, if you do, I'll gladly buy a copy of Lone Star off of you. :)


If this should come to pass you get first dibbs..However, I really doubt it,
FASA has a fairly good track record for customer service like this and I
doubt we will be dissapointed..unless of course we don't like the answer we
get..but of course that is another story all together...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer

Further Reading

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