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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Opher Lubzens)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Sat Aug 17 14:50:01 2002
I just thought about something- Silence spells should be great against
blasts, as blast is essentially a single pulse of extremely strong
sound.Anybody see holes in this assumption? and if not why shouldn't highly
sophisticated safes also have quickened silence spells on them(for the corps
that can afford it), as an anti explosive measure?



Opher Lubzens
-every light casts shadows


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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:35:01 2002
> I just thought about something- Silence spells should be great against
> blasts, as blast is essentially a single pulse of extremely strong
> sound.Anybody see holes in this assumption?

The silence spell would nerf the sound of the explosion but any damage
caused beyond the range of the spell will be heard quite clearly.

and if not why shouldn't highly
> sophisticated safes also have quickened silence spells on them(for the
corps
> that can afford it), as an anti explosive measure?

How would a quickened silence spell be an anti explosive measure on
sophisticated safes? To my mind this would encourage thieves to just blast
that sucker open since their explosives wouldn't be heard.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Cancerman)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Sat Aug 17 19:25:05 2002
At 05:32 PM 8/17/02, you wrote:
> > I just thought about something- Silence spells should be great against
> > blasts, as blast is essentially a single pulse of extremely strong
> > sound.Anybody see holes in this assumption?
>
>The silence spell would nerf the sound of the explosion but any damage
>caused beyond the range of the spell will be heard quite clearly.
>
> > and if not why shouldn't highly
> > sophisticated safes also have quickened silence spells on them(for the
> > corps
> > that can afford it), as an anti explosive measure?
>
>How would a quickened silence spell be an anti explosive measure on
>sophisticated safes? To my mind this would encourage thieves to just blast
>that sucker open since their explosives wouldn't be heard.

Because the blast portion of the explosion (excluding any shrapnel and
heat) is nothing more than compressed air, just like sound is nothing more
than compressed air vibrating at a specific frequency. I would not allow
Silence to automatically negate explosives, but I would think the spell
should at least reduce the power of the explosion by 1/2 the spells force.
Considering that most safe-cracking explosions are probably going to have a
minimum power of 12, and probably much higher, it should take a ritual
casting of Silence to effectively stop the blast effects.

And as you said, using Silence this way would have the drawback of muffling
the noise created by the explosion. Also, I think it would be more cost
effective for a corp to let a potential thief blast away at the safe thus
alerting any nearby guards than to pay a ritual team to protect it. I don't
think this is something runners should encounter very often.


--
Cancerman :: "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc"
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H underpolluted." -Lawrence Summers, chief economist of the World Bank >
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H
H
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:30:00 2002
According to Opher Lubzens, on Sat, 17 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> I just thought about something- Silence spells should be great against
> blasts, as blast is essentially a single pulse of extremely strong
> sound.Anybody see holes in this assumption? and if not why shouldn't
> highly sophisticated safes also have quickened silence spells on them(for
> the corps that can afford it), as an anti explosive measure?

IMHO you have to think about this in terms of magic, not in terms of
physics. Yes, an explosive blast is just moving air, and sound is also
moving air, but what does the Silence spell do? Does it stop air from
moving, or does it stop sound from existing? If it stops air moving, then
yes, it would negate (or at least impair) explosive blast. But if it stops
sound, it will only make for a silent explosion.

If you ask me, it prevents sound, not air movement. As for how it could do
this, there are several possible explanations. One is, "It's magic," but for
those who want a more physics-oriented way, how about saying it creates
sound waves of the same frequency but opposite amplitude of any sound made
inside the spell's area of effect? This would cancel out sound, but
(probably) not normal air movement, like wind or explosive blast effects.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:30:04 2002
According to Cancerman, on Sun, 18 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> And as you said, using Silence this way would have the drawback of
> muffling the noise created by the explosion.

If you're quickening spells on a safe anyway, you might as well anchor a
Detect Explosion spell, too, linked to some kind of alarm outside the
Silence radius.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:05:05 2002
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>

> Yes, an explosive blast is just moving air, and sound is also
> moving air, but what does the Silence spell do? Does it stop air from
> moving, or does it stop sound from existing? If it stops air moving, then
> yes, it would negate (or at least impair) explosive blast. But if it stops
> sound, it will only make for a silent explosion.

If it stopped air moving, then it would be an efficient damaging spell, as
anybody entering the target area would start to suffocate.

As there has been several reference to people surving a silence spell, we
should assume that it dosn't stop air moving.

Lars
--
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:20:01 2002
> As there has been several reference to people surving a silence spell, we
> should assume that it dosn't stop air moving.
>

And on a side note why try to explain a magical effect with physics? Ruins
the whole concept of "magic" IMNSHO

:oP

heh

But I agree a silence spell would not stop air from moving since many runs
have you casting silence on yourself/the group to make a stealth approach.
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Sun Aug 18 12:40:13 2002
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Sun, 18 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> If it stopped air moving, then it would be an efficient damaging spell,
> as anybody entering the target area would start to suffocate.

Good point. It would make Silence a very good anti-burglar spell, though: anyone
spending enough time to open the safe will be easy to arrest once they've passed
out :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Sun Aug 18 12:40:23 2002
According to Jonathan, on Sun, 18 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> And on a side note why try to explain a magical effect with physics?
> Ruins the whole concept of "magic" IMNSHO

With the way SR's magic system is set up, IMHO there are some things that
need a physics explanation as part of the reason why the magic does what it
does. But if you try to make it too detailed, in most cases you'll find you
can't come up with a good enough explanation that fits well enough -- like
here.

Something I've said to my group a couple of times, when someone tried to
design a spell to have some effect in a specific way, is to not describe
how a spell reaches an effect, but just describe the effect -- because if
you work out how it works, it's much easier for other people to shoot holes
in it, or come up with situation where it works against you in ways you
hadn't intended but which are logical extensions of your description :) "It
silences sounds" is a much better spell effect than, "It silences sounds by
preventing air movement."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Sun Aug 18 12:50:01 2002
> With the way SR's magic system is set up, IMHO there are some things that
> need a physics explanation as part of the reason why the magic does what
it
> does. But if you try to make it too detailed, in most cases you'll find
you
> can't come up with a good enough explanation that fits well enough -- like
> here.
>

Me I just like the simple magic is magic explination, if it could be easily
done normally with science it's no longer magic. :)

But a good view point on it all the same and something to consider :)
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Opher Lubzens)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:40:01 2002
Cancerman claimed
>should at least reduce the power of the explosion by 1/2 the spells force.
>Considering that most safe-cracking explosions are probably going to have a
>minimum power of 12, and probably much higher, it should take a ritual
>casting of Silence to effectively stop the blast effects.
I don't think so- most of the corps of the size I'm thinking about are in
the bigger AA or greater range so the spell will probably be at least Force
6 - and reducing the strength of an explosive by 25% is probably worth it,
since, as I understand it, most safe crackers will try to use the least
explosives so as not to damage the safe's content(that what's they want
after all).

Gurth digressed:
>Yes, an explosive blast is just moving air, and sound is also
>moving air,

Aren't they one and the same, explosive blast being within the larger
category of sound in the same way a single beat of drum is(and AFAIK a
strong enough sound can cause injury and death becuse of overpressure)?




Opher Lubzens
-every light casts shadows




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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Mon Aug 19 17:05:05 2002
In a message dated Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:51:48 +0300, lubzens@*******.com writes:

>
>
> I just thought about something- Silence spells should be great against
> blasts, as blast is essentially a single pulse of extremely strong
> sound.Anybody see holes in this assumption? and if not why shouldn't highly
> sophisticated safes also have quickened silence spells on them(for the corps
> that can afford it), as an anti explosive measure?
>
>
>
> Opher Lubzens
> -every light casts shadows


The only problem with what yoiu said is that a blast is not just a single pulse of sound,
it is expanding gases that rip open whatever is trying to contain them. the sound comes
from the rapid expansion of the gas.
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Tue Aug 20 04:15:04 2002
>From: "Opher Lubzens" <lubzens@*******.com>
>Gurth digressed:
>>Yes, an explosive blast is just moving air, and sound is also
>>moving air,
>
>Aren't they one and the same, explosive blast being within the larger
>category of sound in the same way a single beat of drum is(and AFAIK a
>strong enough sound can cause injury and death becuse of overpressure)?

One of Gurth's mails on a previous thread (Great Dragon and hideous
digressions) is useful here, the two aren't quite the same, yes sound can
cause injury but an explosion - although noisy, isn't just a big bang. Gurth
quoted some facts from one of his demolition manuals which put the explosive
speed of IIRC TNT at somewhere in the region of 26,000 feet per second (I
assume that's at room temperature at sea level (the air pressure around the
explosion having some (very minor) effect on the speed of the explosion.))
so the blast wave (to use a very unprofessional term) of a TNT explosion
moves outward radially from the centre of the explosion at a speed of 26,000
feet every second. The speed of sound under similar conditions is 331.3 m/s
which at 3.3 feet to the meter converts to 1093 feet per second, sound
therefore has a top speed approx 1/26 that of the explosive front.
The explosion itself therefore cannot be sound alone.

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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Silence and blast
Date: Tue Aug 20 05:30:01 2002
According to Opher Lubzens, on Mon, 19 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> >Yes, an explosive blast is just moving air, and sound is also
> >moving air,
>
> Aren't they one and the same, explosive blast being within the larger
> category of sound in the same way a single beat of drum is(and AFAIK a
> strong enough sound can cause injury and death becuse of overpressure)?

That's the real question, IMHO. They are (essentially) the same phenomenon
when speaking in physics terms, but are they when you're looking at it from
a magical point of view? To illustrate what I mean, consider a car wheel. If
it's just lying around somewhere, you can cast a spell at it. But as soon as
someone bolts it onto a car, you can't -- you have to target the whole car.
This because, to magic, "a car" is a different entity from "a wheel"
even
though a car is made up of all kinds of small components.

IMHO, the best way of looking at how magic in SR works, is to look at
something and go with the first impression you get from it. If for the
concept of "explosion," your first thought is of the sound it makes, then
I'd say you could affect it with a Silence spell. But if you think of the
destruction it causes, then it's clearly not a sound in the same way as
someone speaking is, in magical terms anyway.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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