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Message no. 1
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Silencers
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 14:50:33 -0500
How many of you make the characters replace their silencers and sound
suppresors? I'm just asking because depending on the make, model, and
type of round, they can wear out quickly or last for a while.

I'll admit that something like this probably won't be anything more
than another stat to keep track of, but how many of you would like
to see rules for wearing out silencers for the Tech Book? Rules for
the deterioration of other equipment (e.g. armor)? I know it's not
for the storytellers, but I'm sure there are enough "realistic"
players who would appreciate it.


J Roberson
Message no. 2
From: ntomlin <ntomlin@*****.VALDOSTA.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 16:25:31 -0400
maybe the new silencers are tech enough they don't wear out :) The
Ares slivergun says it has a built in silencer does that mean you
would have to buy a whole new gun?
Message no. 3
From: Hobbes Patrol Headquarters <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re : Silencers
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 15:54:15 -0500
>How many of you make the characters replace their silencers and sound
>suppresors? I'm just asking because depending on the make, model, and
>type of round, they can wear out quickly or last for a while.

>I'll admit that something like this probably won't be anything more
>than another stat to keep track of, but how many of you would like
>to see rules for wearing out silencers for the Tech Book? Rules for
>the deterioration of other equipment (e.g. armor)?

>J Roberson

We've done this in Cyberpunk. But, It'll work, I guess.

BTW, my only exposure to silencers is in the realm of paintball, where I've
cracked one while going for a flag grab. If was cool, 'cause it sprayed
paint everywhere! But mine never 'wore out'. (What do I know? It's a
paintball thing...)

-Tyger

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
! ...tho we say "All information should be free", it is not. !
! Information is the power and currency in the virtual world we inhabit. !
! -Billy Idol, from "CyberPunk" !
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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!He was independent, and unpredictable, but harmless. Except now !
!he had a philosophy, and that made him dangerous. !
! -From "Operation LIVEcrime" !
Queensryche
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Message no. 4
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1993 15:40:35 -0500
]how many of you would like to see rules for wearing out silencers for the Tech
]Book? Rules for the deterioration of other equipment (e.g. armor)?
Sorry. I don't know how many other players (and GMs) I speak for, but between
having to keep track of Ammo, gear, etc etc, I do NOT need any more numbers.
If you want to do it, fine, but I personally don't see the need. It's about as
obnoxious as having to figure out how much your lifestyle costs per day, and
then subtracting it every 24 hours... more realistic (maybe), but pointless.
IMHO, as always.
Rev
Message no. 5
From: "L.T.Bryant" <cs5025@***.AC.UK>
Subject: silencers
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 15:11:39 +0100
silencers
excuse me sirs ! Not being a full gm (so dont quote me
on this) but on my handy copy of the target number modifyers,
for shooting. i find no adgustment for the use of a silenser ,
and as far as i can remember the use of one does not affect
accuracy although it may cause a shortaning in range ( though
only slight) maybe the gm was just felling mean abought being
out smared or had outher more pressing mods to apply.
just a few thoughts.
STEEL
--
oh rose thou art sick
the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <jweste%smtp@******.HZEELAND.NL>
Subject: Silencers - Reply
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 10:32:39 +0200
In reply to the question of how to make silencers more playable (and more
likely to wear out):

You could call on the rule of one. If the player (or NPC) rolls all ones,
his silencer malfunctions. Trouble is, I have yet to six 1's.

Or you could roll 3D6 each time the weapon gets fired: roll less than
number of rounds fired in current Action, silencer gives up.

Just some thoughts...
Message no. 7
From: Tyger09@***.COM
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 02:22:27 EDT
>In reply to the question of how to make silencers more playable (and more
>likely to wear out):

>You could call on the rule of one. If the player (or NPC) rolls all ones,
>his silencer malfunctions. Trouble is, I have yet to six 1's.

Seen it! (Mage in the astral doing a simple spell, rolls 6 dice, all ones.
Uses pool, all ones. Blows karma, all ones. We dropped it at that as
fate.)

>Or you could roll 3D6 each time the weapon gets fired: roll less than
>number of rounds fired in current Action, silencer gives up.
>Just some thoughts...

Actually, that's ok. But who's that exacting? Why not use a dramatic time
to have the thing fail? :) Seriously, what if my sammie takes care of the
thing? Couldn't I expand the life of it? (Or, hey, DIKOTE the internal
baffle and get it over with! :P )

Actally, how about this as useless : Using a silencer and explosive rounds?
:)

-Tyger

******************************************************************
! |\ /| ! Tyger (Available on "Tyger09@***.com", and a !
! (I)_(I) ! few other locations as well.) !
! --- \ / --- ! Paintball, Pinball, and driving around the state !
! --- | --- ! of confusion without a licence. !
! \___/ \___/ !***************************************************
! "Never say 'Bite me!' to a carnivore." -Catt !
******************************************************************
Message no. 8
From: "Wow, Reality. That's a switch" <MHILLIARD@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: silencers
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 08:24:23 -0500
Uh, are you taking into account sound supressors?

Or are they the same thing.

Phelan
Message no. 9
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: silencers
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 08:42:33 -0400
>>>>> "Wow," == Wow, Reality That's a switch
<MHILLIARD@****.ALBION.EDU>
>>>>> writes:

Wow> Uh, are you taking into account sound supressors?
Wow> Or are they the same thing.

They are the same thing, and yes he is.

Don't belive everything... make that anything Hollywood tells you.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 10
From: "Wow, Reality. That's a switch" <MHILLIARD@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Re: silencers
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 09:16:33 -0500
>Don't belive everything... make that anything Hollywood tells you.

Actually, I asked because they're both listed in the Accessories section of
the Black Book, and the supressor is 300Y more than the silencer.

Phelan

PS: Sorry for the screw-up, assuming it went out (I'm not sure that it did).
Message no. 11
From: Firepower <DVANDERS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: silencers
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 16:27:30 EST
The principle is the same.
YES, both will quiet down the noise of a shot---using internal baffles.
However, the larger the gun, the greater the amount and size of the
internal baffle system--to mute a heavy pistol, you would need one
big, ugly, troll--sized suppressor.
And it still wouldn't work the way you see on TV--that soft fffft that
you can't hear from a foot away. In actuality it takes tha sound from
something easily heard from thousands of yards away to something
that can be heard a mere one hundred yards away. Superb for the
high--powered Barett sniper rifle, with its ungodly range. No good for
a heavy pistol.
And, in answer to another, yes, a silencer will work on a SMG;
however, the constant battering of the gasses released will wear it
down very quickly indeed. My favorite trick---roll to have it fail
randomly--gives players grey hairs fast.
Also--the silencer does not mask the distinctive sounds of a gun in
operation--the snick--snick of the slide is pretty distinctive indeed.
However, a little imagination is the best way---see my next posting,
under Quiet Kills.

<Why me?>
Firepower
Message no. 12
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: silencers
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 21:47:45 -0500
>>>>> "Wow" == Wow, Reality That's a switch
<MHILLIARD@****.ALBION.EDU>
>>>>> writes:

Rat> Don't belive everything... make that anything Hollywood tells you.
Wow> Actually, I asked because they're both listed in the Accessories
Wow> section of the Black Book, and the supressor is 300Y more than the
Wow> silencer.

Is that "sound suppressor" or "flash suppressor" (it probalby doesn't
say).

In the Real World(tm) a "silencer" is a common misnomer for a sound
suppressor, which has the effect of muffling the sound; you cannot
completely eliminate the sound of a gunshot, it's a physical impossiblity.
A flash suppressor muffles the muzzle flash which is a Good Thing(tm) if
don't want your position discovered easily by watching for the flashes.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Message no. 13
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: silencers
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 20:09:29 +1100
Rat writes:

> Is that "sound suppressor" or "flash suppressor" (it probalby
doesn't say).

It says it's a sound suppressor. It also says that silencers act as flash
suppressors, but doesn't say the same when reffering to sound suppressors.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

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Message no. 14
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: silencers
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:09:41 -0500
>>>>> "Damion" == Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
writes:

Damion> Rat writes:
>> Is that "sound suppressor" or "flash suppressor" (it probalby
doesn't say).

Damion> It says it's a sound suppressor. It also says that silencers act as
Damion> flash suppressors, but doesn't say the same when reffering to sound
Damion> suppressors.

Great. Yet another example of FASA not knowing the first thing about
firearms and printing something that "looks good enough to us."

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 15
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: silencers
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 08:50:11 -0800
In my game, one can peruse the tech-toy shops and come up with an
"Active Sound Cancellation Interface", or ASCI, which uses a high-quality
"anti-noise" speaker and a purpose-built processor to cancel the sound of
whatever it is interfaced with.
This technology is in use today, and basically emits "anti-noise"
(no relation to antimatter) which is the same frequency, amplitude,
signal strength but exactly out of phase with the produced noise.
Works much better than old-style sound moderators.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 16
From: Firepower <DVANDERS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: silencers
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:39:50 EST
Adam Getchell writes;
<in my game...one can come up with an Active Sound Cancellation
Interface....using an "anti--noise speaker"...>

Excellent idea--the Bose Corporation has already designed
rudimentary versions of this, so I don't see why this technology
couldn't have been developed. In fact, I'm very surprised that one of
the techheads at FASA havn't come up with this already!!!

Of course, I'd put a high price and low avail on this item. Also, the
constant shock of handling pistol recoil might just jolt a few wires
loose every once in a while........

<Nightmares are fun if you're not having them.>

Firepower
Message no. 17
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: silencers
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:54:40 -0500
>>>>> "Firepower" == Firepower <DVANDERS@*****.VINU.EDU>
writes:

Firepower> Excellent idea--the Bose Corporation has already designed
Firepower> rudimentary versions of this, so I don't see why this technology
Firepower> couldn't have been developed. In fact, I'm very surprised that
Firepower> one of the techheads at FASA havn't come up with this already!!!

Well, because the hardware to cancel the sound of a gunshot would need to
be rather large and consume quite a bit of power. You need some moderately
sophisticated sensing apparatus and speakers/emitters capable of
duplicating the full range of pitch and volume of a gunshot, and power to
drive them. Then there's the fact that you're still emitting a signal and
that can be detected--which is why using destructive interference won't
work for things like radar stealth.

Impossible? Certainly not. Unwieldly? Definitely.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get away
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 18
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: silencers
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 14:19:44 -0800
On Mon, 31 Oct 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Well, because the hardware to cancel the sound of a gunshot would need to
> be rather large and consume quite a bit of power. You need some moderately
> sophisticated sensing apparatus and speakers/emitters capable of
> duplicating the full range of pitch and volume of a gunshot, and power to
> drive them. Then there's the fact that you're still emitting a signal and
> that can be detected--which is why using destructive interference won't
> work for things like radar stealth.

Why would the hardware need to be large? A gunshot releases less
than 1% of its energy as sound, so you certainly don't need the energy
storage of the shot.
And certainly, if you can have a man-pack laser the energy
storage is sufficiently dense as to make that component of the system small.
Speakers? Well, crystals can certainly duplicate a wide variety
of sounds, and as a matter of fact a gunshot is not all that complex a
waveform -- a pressure spike followed by gas release, easy enough to
record and digitize. The computers of 2054 would certainly be compact
and powerful enough to be able to learn the signature they need to cancel.
Destructive cancellation does work, and would not emit a signal
that could be detected, because most of the signal will have cancelled
with the original sound well below ambient noise levels. The geometry of
noise cancellation for a gun is a simple cone enclosing the bolt, breech
and muzzle, not difficult at all. Also, the platfor is relatively
stationary, so Doppler effects become relatively minor.
The only real problem is cancelling the noise of the bullet, which
practically is impossible because you can't set up a speaker array along
the flight path of the round. But the gun could be easily silenced,
probably with hardware no more bulky than a smartgun adaptor. In my game
ASCI weighs .5 kg, as the "computer" is a flake of diamond substrate with
doped plastic epitaxy and the "speaker" is an array of filaments with
differing crystals bonded to the surface.
Active radar cancellation would work in theory, except that the
velocities of the platforms (i.e. aircraft) are high so Doppler effects
become non-negligible, and the geometries are complex as well. But,
after all it works to a degree, as active radar cancellation is also more
well known as ECM.

> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get away

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 19
From: JOHANNA BURWELL-KALES <burwell@******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 16:39:16 -0800
what about the rumor that you can use a 2 liter coke bottle for a
silencer by tapig it around the gun barrel? A friend of ine who is
heavily nto guns said that he tried it once just to see if it worked and
amazingly it did, or so he says. Anyone else know anything about that
method? Good for one shots...
later alligator....
Message no. 20
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: silencers
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 20:16:18 -0500
>>>>> "Adam" == Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
writes:

Adam> Why would the hardware need to be large? A gunshot releases less
Adam> than 1% of its energy as sound, so you certainly don't need the
Adam> energy storage of the shot.

You still need a fairly large and powerful emitter to generate a 110+dB
signal that retains the fidelity and nuances of the original signal. While
the basic waveform is simple, you're dealing with chaos theory with the
signal permutations: air pressure, density, humidity, temperature all
subtlely affect the waveform, adding all kinds of little nuances that need
to be duplicated to obtain full destructive cancelation.

[...]

Adam> Destructive cancellation does work,

Yes, it does. You can experience it by piping a "mono" signal through
"stereo" speakers. You'll find "dead spots" where the volume is
tremendously reduced or canceled entirely.

Adam> and would not emit a signal that could be detected, because most of
Adam> the signal will have cancelled with the original sound well below
Adam> ambient noise levels.

You can't detect it audibly, but there is still energy being emitted. Any
emitted energy can be detected somehow.

Adam> The geometry of noise cancellation for a gun is a simple cone
Adam> enclosing the bolt, breech and muzzle, not difficult at all. Also,
Adam> the platfor is relatively stationary, so Doppler effects become
Adam> relatively minor.

True.

Adam> The only real problem is cancelling the noise of the bullet, which
Adam> practically is impossible because you can't set up a speaker array
Adam> along the flight path of the round.

The same holds true for the propellant gasses escaping the barrel, which is
the cause of the "bang!" noise. For the same reasons you can't use
destructive cancelation to negate the sound of the bullet, you can't use it
to silence the gasses. That's where the sound suppressor comes in; by
reducing the velocity of the escaping gasses to subsonic, no sonic boom is
created.

Compared to the gas bang, the bullet is a quiet whip-crack at supersonic
velocities.

Adam> But the gun could be easily silenced, probably with hardware no more
Adam> bulky than a smartgun adaptor. In my game ASCI weighs .5 kg, as the
Adam> "computer" is a flake of diamond substrate with doped plastic epitaxy
Adam> and the "speaker" is an array of filaments with differing crystals
Adam> bonded to the surface.

If you mean to have this system negate the sound of the action, this is
sufficient (if this is correct, then I think I misinterpreted your original
comments). Added to a weapon that fires subsonic ammunition from a closed
bolt and has a good sound suppressor you'll have a weapon that makes about
as much noise as a longbow, maybe less.

Adam> Active radar cancellation would work in theory, except that the
Adam> velocities of the platforms (i.e. aircraft) are high so Doppler
Adam> effects become non-negligible, and the geometries are complex as
Adam> well. But, after all it works to a degree, as active radar
Adam> cancellation is also more well known as ECM.

Well, sort of. ECM is the most extreme form of destructive cancellation,
flooding the receptor with so much noise that it can't distinguish
anything. But as I said before, sure you could make an object "invisible,"
("The Minotaur" notwithstanding :) but because it's broadcasting a
signal/energy its presence can still be detected. Not it's location, but
definitely its presence. Kinda like a weird application of the Uncertanty
Principle: you can't see where it is, but you can determine where it's
going by tracking the energy emissions.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 21
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Silencers...
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 20:23:47 -0500
>>>>> "JOHANNA" == JOHANNA BURWELL-KALES
<burwell@******.EDU> writes:

JOHANNA> what about the rumor that you can use a 2 liter coke bottle for a
JOHANNA> silencer by tapig it around the gun barrel?

It works tolerably for about two shots and then it's useless. A good,
well-made suppressor is good for quite a bit more than that.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |Earth, presumably from outer space.
Message no. 22
From: Firepower <DVANDERS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 13:27:31 EST
I suppose that this could work, by trapping the released gases of
the shot. However, the sound of the bullet breaking the sound barrier
would still remain...
Needless to say, having a 2-liter on the end of one's gun would
also definitely mess up the concealability just a wee bit........

<Shaken, not
stirred.....>

Firepower
Message no. 23
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 09:38:06 +1100
Firepower writes:

> Needless to say, having a 2-liter on the end of one's gun would
> also definitely mess up the concealability just a wee bit........

Especially when you fire - that Coke would just spray _everywhere_.



:-)

luke
Message no. 24
From: The Dragon <JMEYER@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 20:02:31 EST
> Especially when you fire - that Coke would just spray
_everywhere_.
>
You use the bottle when it's empty you DOLT.

Lead, follow, Do what cha like, but stay out of MY way!
-------The Dragon--------
Message no. 25
From: Magister <MELLIOTT@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 20:26:11 EST
> Especially when you fire - that Coke would just spray
_everywhere_.
>
You use the bottle when it's empty you DOLT.

Lead, follow, Do what cha like, but stay out of MY way!
-------The Dragon--------

As much as I hate to do it, I feel a flame coming on........here it
comes.......argh!!!.....<FFFFFLame On!>

Speaking of dolts, here we have a prime example. I have suffered this
fool for about as long as I can. After the recent debacles with Magic vs.
Science and the Magic in Concert, we were rightly chatised by the
management. Obviously, this fellow either did not get the picture or he
just doesn't care. His ego is way out of control from his name, to his
posts, to his sig. I seriously doubt that I will ever read any of his
childish missives again. I'm really sorry if this offends anyone but the
lizard, but, I just had to get this off my chest. If he would like to see
what serious people write about, he should check out Debbie G.'s
posts. That is what this net is for. <Flame dying out>
Thank you all for the chance to vent my anger,
The Magister
Message no. 26
From: Chris Ryan <chrisr@****.QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:39:16 --1000
> > Especially when you fire - that Coke would just spray
> _everywhere_.
> >
> You use the bottle when it's empty you DOLT.

Duh! You don't say...

Sheesh, I guess Luke had better avoid subtlety next time.

Talking about subtlety or lack thereof, our group accidently
set off a nuke in the middle of Oz. Well it wasn't us exactly,
but a terrorist masquerading as our semi-helpful employer for
the mission. Ah well, at least it was only a small one, and
underground...

Chris

Chris Ryan | Earthdawn List: earthdawn@********.iquest.com
Earthdawn Listowner | To subscribe send a message (no subj reqd) to
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Message no. 27
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 19:36:44 +1100
The Magister writes:

> Speaking of dolts, here we have a prime example. I have suffered this
> fool for about as long as I can. After the recent debacles with Magic vs.
> Science and the Magic in Concert, we were rightly chatised by the
> management. Obviously, this fellow either did not get the picture or he
> just doesn't care. His ego is way out of control from his name, to his
> posts, to his sig. I seriously doubt that I will ever read any of his
> childish missives again. I'm really sorry if this offends anyone but the
> lizard, but, I just had to get this off my chest. If he would like to see
> what serious people write about, he should check out Debbie G.'s
> posts. That is what this net is for. <Flame dying out>
> Thank you all for the chance to vent my anger,

That was a bit harsh. And picking on anothers .sig is not really on. His
.sig is more than likely a quote (I dunno where from though), and not
neccessarily a comment on himself.

Chris writes:

> Duh! You don't say...
>
> Sheesh, I guess Luke had better avoid subtlety next time.

And perhaps The Dragon would be a little better off including a smiley in
what he says. (I assume that the Dolt thing was a joke?)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 28
From: "James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 11:26:23 +0000
> From: Firepower <DVANDERS@*****.VINU.EDU>
> Subject: Weaponry discussion
>
> A few ideas and facts about weapons. Please don't argue with
> these--I learned this from an ex-Green Beret!
<CHOP>I always want a reasoned debate

> 1. Silencers and sound suppressors. These DO NOT work like you
> see on television--powerful .45s quited down to almost no sound at
> all. A silencer operates with internal baffles that break up and
> dissipate the air moved by the firing of the bullet, particularly the
^ by the expansion of the GASES.
> shock wave created when a bullet goes supersonic.
>
> FACT--you cannot silence a pistol heavier than a .22 with any true
> operational effectiveness.
<CHOP> Depends what you call silenced...

A Weapons noise comes in three parts
1> Mechanical noise
2> Gas leaving muzzle
3> bullet itself
Firing single shot from a closed bolt stops mechanical noise

The 'SILENCER' expands the barrel allowing the propellant gases
to expand and slow, so sound signiture is reduced from the blast

Subsonic rounds don't break the sound barrier, and so don't make
as much noise

FACT The MP5SD has a built in silencer, and firing a 9mm round
cannot be heard 5m away

FACT The .45 round is subsonic.

FACT the DeLise Carbine fires a .45 round from a bolt action and
is VERY quite

FACT 9mm becomes subsonic with bullets aprox 135grains...
a normal load is 100- 115 grains, but 147 grain JHP's are
easily available

>
> FACT--a silencer on an automatic weapon will be torn apart after about
> 20 to 30 rounds.
<CHOP> TRUE... but they're dead then

> Another FACT--I tend to use these rules in gaming. I have not had a
> problem with these facts--magic and dikoted arrows do a very
> effective job silently.
<CHOP> TWANG!!! ever heard a high power bow?
AND ARE SPELLS SILENT?

> One idea though--military and SWAT tend to use subsonic
> loads--since the bullet doesn't break the sound barrier, it is vewy,
> vewy quiet. BUT NOT SILENT. Everyone remember that when the kill
> has to be quiet.
>
<CHOP> You USE A silenced automatic, and it alters the sound...
> ^^^^^^
Yes it goes THUMP but not BANG. Most peaple will thing someone
dropped a heavy book or something.
And in a busy street it'll never be heard over the street noise
>

CHOPPER
Hark the herald graveworm sings
glory unto carrion things
P.S.
Why NOT use MAGIC to silence the gun?
Message no. 29
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:33:41 -0800
On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Damion Milliken wrote:

> And perhaps The Dragon would be a little better off including a smiley in
> what he says. (I assume that the Dolt thing was a joke?)

I wouldn't assume so. That's why I don't think Magister was
being harsh. It is pretty poor etiquette in general to call someone a
name directly, smiley or no smiley.
Now, as soon as I can figure out how to set my mail filter ...

> Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 30
From: Firepower <DVANDERS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 16:36:54 EST
<Chopper writes--9mm bullets become subsonic with 147--grain
bullets>
True enough. However, I fired quite a few 147--grain subsonic loads
through my Beretta 92 when I owned the monster, and I assure you that
they are anything but silent.

Firepower
Message no. 31
From: The Dragon <JMEYER@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:04:17 EST
edited for space.....
>....... picking on anothers .sig is not really on. His
> .sig is more than likely a quote (I dunno where from though), and not
> neccessarily a comment on himself.

My sig. is not a quote it is of my own making thank you!

> Chris writes:
>
> > Duh! You don't say...
> >
> > Sheesh, I guess Luke had better avoid subtlety next time.
>
> And perhaps The Dragon would be a little better off including a
smiley in
> what he says. (I assume that the Dolt thing was a joke?)
>
Here's the smiley you asked for =)
But did he really think you where supposed to use a full bottle! come
on I think he need the smiley! =)

Lead, follow, Do what cha like, but stay out of MY way!
-------The Dragon--------
Message no. 32
From: The Dragon <JMEYER@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:22:13 EST
> Talking about subtlety or lack thereof, our group accidently
> set off a nuke in the middle of Oz. Well it wasn't us exactly,
> but a terrorist masquerading as our semi-helpful employer for
> the mission. Ah well, at least it was only a small one, and
> underground...
>
> Chris
>
> Chris Ryan

Above ground, below ground it's nasty!

Lead, follow, Do what cha like, but stay out of MY way!
-------The Dragon--------
Message no. 33
From: KRIS HONEYCOTT <KHONEY@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:28:30 EST
Sound Suppressors are better. You get to use bigger firepower that
way.
Kage-kami
"Anger is a Gift"
Message no. 34
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 22:35:18 -0500
> <CHOP> TWANG!!! ever heard a high power bow?
> AND ARE SPELLS SILENT?
>

Umm, unless you are chanting, singing, or playing your guitar to center,
then most of them are. Ever heard a manabolt(The takedown spell of choice
for all silent magicians everywhere)?
Message no. 35
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 17:09:04 +1100
Someone writes:

> Umm, unless you are chanting, singing, or playing your guitar to center,
> then most of them are. Ever heard a manabolt(The takedown spell of choice
> for all silent magicians everywhere)?

What's this "silent" bit? Manabolt is the takedown spell of _magicians_
everywhere, who cares if the magician is the silent type or not, manabolt is
still one of the most effective spells around. At least it was until the new
uses for levitate person were dreamed up by some insidiously evil little
mind.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 36
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 17:17:10 +1100
The Dragon writes:

> But did he really think you where supposed to use a full bottle! come
> on I think he need the smiley! =)

He did.

BTW, if you really believed what he typed... I've got this great little
convertible for sale... :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 37
From: "James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: silencers
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 11:34:24 +0000
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
> Subject: Silent bullets
>
> >>>>> "Jan-bart" == Jan-bart van Beek
<flake@***.DDS.NL> writes:
>
> Jan-bart> Great idea, that silent bullet. Did ya think of that one yourself
> Jan-bart> or does this baby really exist.
>
> It doesn't exist.
RAT>
<CHOP> WRONG! The Russian dreamed it up.
They make 7.65x43mm pistol rounds to this design, and use then
in a silent pistol and a one shot combat knife

SEE 'Jane's guide to infantry weapons'93-94, under 'Commonwealth
of independant states' (Russia) for details.

>Jan-bart> BTW (By the way, for the few of you who don't know what it means)
> Jan-bart> how about combining it with subsonic bullet technology and a
> Jan-bart> high-tech silencer. I think that would make the bullet soundless
> Jan-bart> and flashless.
>
RAT> These absolutes are impossible to achieve. You can get damn close to silent
RAT> and flashless, but you cannot completely eliminate the noise via mechanical
RAT> means.
<CHOP>WHO cares? If the bullet noise is reduced to a level where
it is lost in the background noise, or is no longer recognised
as a gunshot, the silencer has done its job...
> Jan-bart> Another point, subsonic bullets are less lethal.
>
> Not by much.
>
> Jan-bart> This is because high velocity bullets disrupt the blood stream in
> Jan-bart> your vessels, they create a tiny wave of blood streaming in the
> Jan-bart> opposite direction.
>
> Um, no. Bullets work by transferring lots of kinetic energy. This causes
> deformation of the target, which if living, causes major tissue damage,
> blood loss, and ultimately shock (assuming something vital to continued
> survival is damaged, like the brain or heart). That is what kills.
>
<CHOP> I agree... its the F*K huge hole the bullet just ripped
out of you that does the most damage.Hydrostatics can injure,
but the shock of the bullet injury is worse.

Quick Wound channel diagram

1 2 3 4
______ ---------- \___
=======<______ ___
\ \ ------/
\ \
1 Bullet in.
2 bullet starts to tumble
3 bullet moving sideways
3 bullet may break up
4 bullet exits backwards

NASTY! (this is taken fron USA 5.56 round and my memory)
> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|which, if exposed due to rupture, should
> PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
> -----------------------------

CHOPPER
Thanks to the bullet boys for making life a lot more deadly>
Message no. 38
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: silencers
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 13:22:34 +0000
> > Jan-bart> Another point, subsonic bullets are less lethal.
> >
> > Not by much.

The .45 ACP round (as used by the Colt M1911) is subsonic anyway. So
.45 caliber pistols and SMG's can be fitted with a suppressor,
minimising propellent noise at no cost to effectiveness.

> >
> > Jan-bart> This is because high velocity bullets disrupt the blood stream in
> > Jan-bart> your vessels, they create a tiny wave of blood streaming in the
> > Jan-bart> opposite direction.
> >
> > Um, no. Bullets work by transferring lots of kinetic energy. This causes
> > deformation of the target, which if living, causes major tissue damage,
> > blood loss, and ultimately shock (assuming something vital to continued
> > survival is damaged, like the brain or heart). That is what kills.
> >
> <CHOP> I agree... its the F*K huge hole the bullet just ripped
> out of you that does the most damage.Hydrostatics can injure,
> but the shock of the bullet injury is worse.

Depends on the bullet. The main mechanisms for bullet damage are

wound path
cavitation
hydrostatic shock

the last is Jan-barts 'wave of blood' effect. It is only present in high
velocity rounds (not the .45 for example) and is the reason a sniper
rifle can hit you in the arm and burst your heart. Sniper rifles
lose a lot of effect (both in range and deadliness) when silenced.
The Barret from FoF just cannot be as deadly as it is and as quiet.

Lastly, it's worth pointing out that if a weapon is silent it will
usually be used in a situation where rapid firing is not too important.
(I'm thinking senry takeout) So bullets can be aimed well and placed
better. This means that a low power round can be effective when
silent because the shot will almost always be a called shot.
I know there'll be exceptions, but it's worth pointing out.

I apologise if I've repeated previous postings, but this is one
of my favourite subjects and my mail system has been down recently
(I got kicked off the list, sniff :-)

See ya'all

GLO (yeah, think I'll stick with that, it's simple, like me)



--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
Message no. 39
From: The Dragon <JMEYER@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 15:52:30 EST
> The Dragon writes:
>
> > But did he really think you where supposed to use a full bottle!
come
> > on I think he need the smiley! =)
>
> He did.
>
> BTW, if you really believed what he typed... I've got this great little
> convertible for sale... :-)
>
REALLY just what i've been looking for !!!! '=)

Lead, follow, Do what cha like, but stay out of MY way!
-------The Dragon--------
Message no. 40
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Silencers...
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:01:18 +1100
The Dragon wrote:

> But did he really think you where supposed to use a full bottle! come
> on I think he need the smiley! =)

Don't you read your private email, Dragon?

And yes, the original message had a smiley: 3 lines down, 1 line above
my name.

Hmm, can I think of anything to add to make this post worthwhile ...



Nope.
Guess not.

luke
Message no. 41
From: Malcalypse The Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 21:53:40 -0500
On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Matt Hufstetler wrote:

> Umm, unless you are chanting, singing, or playing your guitar to center,
> then most of them are. Ever heard a manabolt(The takedown spell of choice
> for all silent magicians everywhere)?

Am I the only one enamoured with Chaos and Chaotic World? These spells
are based off INT, something that most sams and some mages have low stats
in... I tend to have a good manabolt and powerbolt as well, for opposing
mages.

Shadow
Message no. 42
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Silencers
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 22:11:43 -0500
>>>>> "shadow" == Malcalypse The Younger
<shadow@******.NET> writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No, you're not. I've met Mal-2, and you're not he. Unless you are, in which
case ignore that previous statement.

shadow> Am I the only one enamoured with Chaos and Chaotic World? These
shadow> spells are based off INT, something that most sams and some mages
shadow> have low stats in...

If you belive that I've got some beachfront property in Nevada for sale.

Seriously, nearly every street ronin I've seen has good mental as well as
physical attributes. INT gives you Reaction, Combat Pool, and perception,
three of the most important things for anyone who finds themselves in
combat more than once in a lifetime.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get away
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 43
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 02:35:00 +1100
Shadow writes:

[Sammies have low mental stats, particularily Int, so use Chaostic things,
and save the manabolts and powerbolts for the enemy mages]

Odd tactics there Shadow, like Rat said, most razorguys have pretty good
mental stats, and whats the manabolts vs mages bit? You'd have to be crazy
to cast a manabolt at an enemy mage, for starters they'll have high Will,
and plus they'll have magic pool to defend. The powerbolt is by far superior
against mages (and the bullet is usually even better).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 44
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 14:09:25 +0000
The SS Rat wrote:
>
> shadow> Am I the only one enamoured with Chaos and Chaotic World? These
> shadow> spells are based off INT, something that most sams and some mages
> shadow> have low stats in...
>
> If you belive that I've got some beachfront property in Nevada for sale.
>
> Seriously, nearly every street ronin I've seen has good mental as well as
> physical attributes. INT gives you Reaction, Combat Pool, and perception,
> three of the most important things for anyone who finds themselves in
> combat more than once in a lifetime.

I lost a team of NPC troll snipers cos their Int was low. They were good
shots and had high stealth, but when it came to a 'sniper duel' with
the PCs they lost cos their Int was too low to beat the PCs stealth
skill.

My karate teacher says thet your main weapons are your eyes and
your brain. He's right.

GLO

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
Message no. 45
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Silencers
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 12:47:34 -0500
>>>>> "Gareth" == Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
writes:

Gareth> I lost a team of NPC troll snipers cos their Int was low. They were
Gareth> good shots and had high stealth, but when it came to a 'sniper
Gareth> duel' with the PCs they lost cos their Int was too low to beat the
Gareth> PCs stealth skill.

Then your player's characters are as stupid as the players :).

Gareth> My karate teacher says thet your main weapons are your eyes and
Gareth> your brain. He's right.

Actually, he's wrong. Your main weapons are your eyes (to see), your brain
(to reason), and your feet (to run away).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 46
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: silencers
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:03:55 -0800
On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Gareth Owen wrote:

> Depends on the bullet. The main mechanisms for bullet damage are
>
> wound path
> cavitation
> hydrostatic shock

Hydrostatic shock as a mechanism for damage has been disproven by
the Wound Ballistics Lab in Aberdeen, Maryland. Works great on
watermelons and coke cans and things with rigid walls but doesn't work on
the human body.
Another myth they disproved was the "light bullets tumble" when
striking brush or foliage. The truth is *all* bullets tumble, from .22
to .50 when encountering shrubbery.
"Did you say shrubbery?"
"Yes, I'm a shrubber, ..." <Okay, no more Monty Python ;->

> Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 47
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 11:01:06 -0800
On Fri, 4 Nov 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Actually, he's wrong. Your main weapons are your eyes (to see), your brain
> (to reason), and your feet (to run away).

Absolutely correct. That's what we teach in self-defense, and
what I've been taught in any martial art that I have practiced.

> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 48
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 16:02:36 -0500
>
> On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Matt Hufstetler wrote:
>
> > Umm, unless you are chanting, singing, or playing your guitar to center,
> > then most of them are. Ever heard a manabolt(The takedown spell of choice
> > for all silent magicians everywhere)?

Shadow wrote:
>
> Am I the only one enamoured with Chaos and Chaotic World? These spells
> are based off INT, something that most sams and some mages have low stats
> in... I tend to have a good manabolt and powerbolt as well, for opposing
> mages.

Since when? All the Samurai I've known are always Charisma
deficient(Decrease Charisma -4? Would that immobilize them if brought
below 0???? <EVIL GRIN>). Intelligence is direct perception. Willpower,
is nearly almost as high as most Samurai's intelligences, only because the
combat pool is rather important.

But you are right. Chaotic world and Chaos are nifty. They offset the
bonuses due to smartlinks.
Message no. 49
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 16:15:53 -0700
>Am I the only one enamoured with Chaos and Chaotic World? These spells
>are based off INT, something that most sams and some mages have low stats
>in... I tend to have a good manabolt and powerbolt as well, for opposing
>mages.


nope - Chaos can be very effective - of course the best us I have seen to
royally screw someone up is to hit them with hyper and then use Chaos on them.

just watch as they sink into horrified psycotic oblivion

Nightfox
Message no. 50
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 16:30:56 -0700
On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Malcalypse The Younger wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Matt Hufstetler wrote:
>
> > Umm, unless you are chanting, singing, or playing your guitar to center,
> > then most of them are. Ever heard a manabolt(The takedown spell of choice
> > for all silent magicians everywhere)?
>
> Am I the only one enamoured with Chaos and Chaotic World? These spells
> are based off INT, something that most sams and some mages have low stats
> in... I tend to have a good manabolt and powerbolt as well, for opposing
> mages.
>
> Shadow
>
I'm sorry Shadow, but every single street sam I know has boosted INT for
a high reaction. Attacking the Int stat of a sam is almost as bad as
attacking the Bod stat.

Mike aka Spellslinger
Message no. 51
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 17:18:32 +1100
Rat writes:

> Gareth> I lost a team of NPC troll snipers cos their Int was low. They were
> Gareth> good shots and had high stealth, but when it came to a 'sniper
> Gareth> duel' with the PCs they lost cos their Int was too low to beat the
> Gareth> PCs stealth skill.
>
> Then your player's characters are as stupid as the players :).

What brought this on? It was the NPCs that had the Int problem and lost -
the PCs were clever and used stealth ratehr than going for a straight out
gunfight.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 52
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Silencers
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 09:50:05 -0500
>>>>> "Damion" == Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
writes:

Damion> What brought this on? It was the NPCs that had the Int problem and
Damion> lost - the PCs were clever and used stealth ratehr than going for a
Damion> straight out gunfight.

OOps! I saw "NPC" and read "PC." Sorry.

Dyslexics Untie!

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get away
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 53
From: Kage-kami <KHONEY@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 13:10:15 EST
Excuse me? Troll snipers? Fraggin why chummer?




Kage-kami


"Anger is a Gift"
Message no. 54
From: Malcalypse The Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 23:40:35 -0500
On Sat, 5 Nov 1994, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Shadow writes:
>
> [Sammies have low mental stats, particularily Int, so use Chaostic things,
> and save the manabolts and powerbolts for the enemy mages]
>
> Odd tactics there Shadow, like Rat said, most razorguys have pretty good
> mental stats, and whats the manabolts vs mages bit? You'd have to be crazy
> to cast a manabolt at an enemy mage, for starters they'll have high Will,
> and plus they'll have magic pool to defend. The powerbolt is by far superior
> against mages (and the bullet is usually even better).

I may have been unclear. I see many sammies (and some mages) in my
campaigns running around with INTs of around 4. Most Sammies have
Willpowers of 5-6, same with Body. So, a Chaotic World spell into the
bunch take their TN#s up a few, then Powerbolt the mages, manabolt the
Sammies.... Or, better a Manaball/Powerball combo. With the added target
numbers, you have a good chance for a high % of take downs..

Shadow
Message no. 55
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: silencers
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:11:13 +0000
Adam wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Gareth Owen wrote:
>
> > Depends on the bullet. The main mechanisms for bullet damage are
> >
> > wound path
> > cavitation
> > hydrostatic shock
>
> Hydrostatic shock as a mechanism for damage has been disproven by
> the Wound Ballistics Lab in Aberdeen, Maryland. Works great on
> watermelons and coke cans and things with rigid walls but doesn't work on
> the human body.
>

Oh! My sources are innacurate then, thanks for pointing that out.

GLO

"Live nad learn, die and forget."

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
Message no. 56
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Silencers
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:58:59 +0000
>
> Excuse me? Troll snipers? Fraggin why chummer?
>
> Kage-kami
>
> "Anger is a Gift"

Well,
the adventure is taking place in the Congo, and I've created a history
for the Congo that gives it an oppressive military dictator who
controls the rather small army and a lot of trolls and orks which
were cast out of society when they goblinized and recruited by
the aforementioned dictator, giving him a powerful shock trooper
corps. They were part of a troll 'terror patrol' - you know,
burn a few villages, blow upa few cattle, keep the peasants
terrified. Non-trolls would have been a better choice for the
sniper role though, dwarves would be better, I guess.

In a nutshell, social reasons.

GLO (yep, I'm gonna stick with this)

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"

Further Reading

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Thwap!