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Message no. 1
From: EdgeWalker EdgeWalker@*****.net
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:05:27 +0100
Hi Everybody, Just a quickie.
SR3 states that Silencers can be used with Single Shot or Semi-Auto Weapons
only. However the Viper and the HK-227S both have Silencers and are both
capable of burst fire. I just wanted some confirmation before I let my
players start modifying weapons. Can silencers be used with burst fire
weapons (Not full auto, they have not get supressors for that one!!)?

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Message no. 2
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:10:54 EDT
In a message dated 5/9/99 8:02:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
EdgeWalker@*****.net writes:

<< Hi Everybody, Just a quickie.
SR3 states that Silencers can be used with Single Shot or Semi-Auto Weapons
only. However the Viper and the HK-227S both have Silencers and are both
capable of burst fire. I just wanted some confirmation before I let my
players start modifying weapons. Can silencers be used with burst fire
weapons (Not full auto, they have not get supressors for that one!!)? >>

The silencer simply would fail to work when firing in BF mode ... or you
could rule it comes with a SOUND SUPPRESSOR instead of a silencer.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 3
From: Nero nero@******.net
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 17:46:10 -0700
EdgeWalker wrote:
>
> Hi Everybody, Just a quickie.
> SR3 states that Silencers can be used with Single Shot or Semi-Auto Weapons
> only. However the Viper and the HK-227S both have Silencers and are both
> capable of burst fire. I just wanted some confirmation before I let my
> players start modifying weapons. Can silencers be used with burst fire
> weapons (Not full auto, they have not get supressors for that one!!)?

Nope(See Sound Suppresser on 281). Probably just a little snafu during
the writing..can't see any reason those two guns would be exempt.

Nero
Message no. 4
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:56:32 +1000
Nero writes:
> EdgeWalker wrote:
> > SR3 states that Silencers can be used with Single Shot or
> Semi-Auto Weapons
> > only. However the Viper and the HK-227S both have Silencers
> and are both
> > capable of burst fire. I just wanted some confirmation before I let my
> > players start modifying weapons. Can silencers be used with burst fire
> > weapons (Not full auto, they have not get supressors for that one!!)?
>
> Nope(See Sound Suppresser on 281). Probably just a little snafu during
> the writing..can't see any reason those two guns would be exempt.

Except for the obvious... the No Silencer rule applies to add-on silencers.
Integral silencers are different: the silencer is part of the gun design,
and so can work with the burst fire setting.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 5
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 18:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
> EdgeWalker wrote:
> > Hi Everybody, Just a quickie.
> > SR3 states that Silencers can be used with Single Shot or Semi-Auto
Weapons only. However the Viper and the HK-227S both have Silencers
and are both capable of burst fire. I just wanted some confirmation
before I let my players start modifying weapons. Can silencers be used
with burst fire weapons (Not full auto, they have not get supressors
for that one!!)?
>
> Nope(See Sound Suppresser on 281). Probably just a little snafu
during the writing..can't see any reason those two guns would be
exempt.
>
> Nero

Problem is, Nero, those two guns are and always have been exempt from
that rule, apparently. As far back as I can remember (which does not go
as far as SR1, although it was probably the case back then, too), both
of those weapons have had SILENCERS and been capable of burst fire. So
here's what I do.

The rule, as stated, stands. SS or SA guns can use silencers. BF or FA
weapons can only use sound suppressors. The only exceptions to this
rule are weapons with BF or FA capability, but which have integral
silencers. The silencer functions as a standard silencer if the weapon
fires in SA mode. If it fires in BF or FA mode, though, the performance
of the silencer downgrades to the point where it is only as good as a
sound suppressor.

Make sense?

*Doc' will get back to you with a smartass comment when his brain is
working properly again.*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 6
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:13:40 -0500
On Mon, 10 May 1999 01:05:27 +0100 "EdgeWalker" <EdgeWalker@*****.net>
writes:
>Hi Everybody, Just a quickie.
>SR3 states that Silencers can be used with Single Shot or Semi-Auto
Weapons
>only. However the Viper and the HK-227S both have Silencers and are
both
>capable of burst fire. I just wanted some confirmation before I let my
>players start modifying weapons. Can silencers be used with burst fire
>weapons (Not full auto, they have not get supressors for that one!!)?

(Possible) Interpretations:
1) The "gun" is actually a set; and though a silencer is included in the
set, the weapon cannot be fired in BF mode without ruining the silencer
(and probably the gun as well).

2) The silencer/gun combo is specially engineered to fire in BF mode.
Thus, this weapon can fire in BF with the accompaning silencer but not
with any other nor can the silencer be used with another weapon in BF
mode (In fact, I would rule that under this interpretation the gun cannot
use other silencers and the silencer won't fit other guns.).

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 7
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:44:08 +1000
D. Ghost writes:
> (Possible) Interpretations:
> 1) The "gun" is actually a set; and though a silencer is included in the
> set, the weapon cannot be fired in BF mode without ruining the silencer
> (and probably the gun as well).
>
> 2) The silencer/gun combo is specially engineered to fire in BF mode.
> Thus, this weapon can fire in BF with the accompaning silencer but not
> with any other nor can the silencer be used with another weapon in BF
> mode (In fact, I would rule that under this interpretation the gun cannot
> use other silencers and the silencer won't fit other guns.).

It's 2), in an odd way... the silence is _integral_ to the gun. It's built
in, and can't be removed. So, yes, the silencer can not be used with another
gun, nor can any other silencer be used with the gun (or any barrel-mounted
accessory, actually)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 8
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 19:24:40 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippola(TM)>
> (Possible) Interpretations:
> 1) The "gun" is actually a set; and though a silencer is included in
the set, the weapon cannot be fired in BF mode without ruining the
silencer (and probably the gun as well).
>
> 2) The silencer/gun combo is specially engineered to fire in BF mode.
Thus, this weapon can fire in BF with the accompaning silencer but not
with any other nor can the silencer be used with another weapon in BF
mode (In fact, I would rule that under this interpretation the gun
cannot use other silencers and the silencer won't fit other guns.).
> D. Ghost

Okay, no offense, Al, but interpretation 1 is stupid (hey, if you buy a
gun with an 'integral silencer' and it blew up in your hand the first
time you used burst fire, wouldn't you sue?). Interpretation 2 is okay.
But like I said, there's a third one. Integral silencers act as
silencers in SA mode. When the gun is fired in BF or FA, performance is
downgraded to the equivalent of a sound suppressor.

*Doc' puts on his Pedantic Man outfit and starts talking soprano.
"Damn, I gotta let the crotch out..."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 9
From: Nero nero@******.net
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 20:14:36 -0700
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> > EdgeWalker wrote:
> > > Hi Everybody, Just a quickie.
> > > SR3 states that Silencers can be used with Single Shot or Semi-Auto
> Weapons only. However the Viper and the HK-227S both have Silencers
> and are both capable of burst fire. I just wanted some confirmation
> before I let my players start modifying weapons. Can silencers be used
> with burst fire weapons (Not full auto, they have not get supressors
> for that one!!)?
> >
> > Nope(See Sound Suppresser on 281). Probably just a little snafu
> during the writing..can't see any reason those two guns would be
> exempt.
> >
> > Nero
>
> Problem is, Nero, those two guns are and always have been exempt from
> that rule, apparently. As far back as I can remember (which does not go
> as far as SR1, although it was probably the case back then, too), both
> of those weapons have had SILENCERS and been capable of burst fire. So
> here's what I do.

Problem is, Doc,...your right. I had forgotten about that, the thing is
though in SR1 silencers work on automatic and semi-auto weapons, and in
the
same entry are also called sound suppressers (Pg 120 if anyone is
curious)
Did that dual wording make it all the way to SR3? *shrug* Maybe, but if
it
was meant as written then it would also seem to imply that any BF/FA
weapon
could have a silencer if someone took the time to build one, which
according
to the rules can't be done. Sort of a little jog around the block, no?
There may be some reason that only certain weapons could be modified
like
the Viper and HK227-S though I don't know enough about guns to even take
a guess. Anyone?

> The rule, as stated, stands. SS or SA guns can use silencers. BF or FA
> weapons can only use sound suppressors. The only exceptions to this
> rule are weapons with BF or FA capability, but which have integral
> silencers. The silencer functions as a standard silencer if the weapon
> fires in SA mode. If it fires in BF or FA mode, though, the performance
> of the silencer downgrades to the point where it is only as good as a
> sound suppressor.

I take it you're speaking of modifiers for perception tests, and that
there
is no 300 round cutoff? If so, I agree with the perception mods, though
I
would still make them have to replace the thing. Any gun knowledgeable
folks know of the possibility to make a everlasting suppresser for a FA?

Nero
Message no. 10
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 21:43:03 -0500
At 07:24 PM 5/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
><Snippola(TM)>
>> (Possible) Interpretations:
>> 1) The "gun" is actually a set; and though a silencer is included in
>the set, the weapon cannot be fired in BF mode without ruining the
>silencer (and probably the gun as well).
>>
>> 2) The silencer/gun combo is specially engineered to fire in BF mode.
>Thus, this weapon can fire in BF with the accompaning silencer but not
>with any other nor can the silencer be used with another weapon in BF
>mode (In fact, I would rule that under this interpretation the gun
>cannot use other silencers and the silencer won't fit other guns.).
>> D. Ghost
>
>Okay, no offense, Al, but interpretation 1 is stupid (hey, if you buy a
>gun with an 'integral silencer' and it blew up in your hand the first
>time you used burst fire, wouldn't you sue?). Interpretation 2 is okay.
>But like I said, there's a third one. Integral silencers act as
>silencers in SA mode. When the gun is fired in BF or FA, performance is
>downgraded to the equivalent of a sound suppressor.

Why do you have to say that the silencer acts as a sound suppressor in BF or FA
mode? Sounds like you're a reactionary GM :)

I agree with Robert. Add on silencers work per the rules. Weapons designed
with integral silencers can be designed so that BF and FA are silenced.

There's really not a conflict here :)

-Graht
--
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Message no. 11
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:00:34 -0700 (PDT)
> >Okay, no offense, Al, but interpretation 1 is stupid (hey, if you
buy a gun with an 'integral silencer' and it blew up in your hand the
first time you used burst fire, wouldn't you sue?). Interpretation 2 is
okay. But like I said, there's a third one. Integral silencers act as
silencers in SA mode. When the gun is fired in BF or FA, performance is
downgraded to the equivalent of a sound suppressor.
>
> Why do you have to say that the silencer acts as a sound suppressor
in BF or FA mode? Sounds like you're a reactionary GM :)

A) Because I think it makes sense - I doubt any real world silencer
would work as well when you fire a burst as it would when you fire a
single shot.

B) Because I had my GM's hat on. The munchkin in me (player persona :)
) says, "It's a silencer! End of discussion!"

> -Graht

*Doc' grins evilly. "How do you say that? Grot?"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:37:48 +0200
According to EdgeWalker, at 1:05 on 10 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> SR3 states that Silencers can be used with Single Shot or Semi-Auto Weapons
> only. However the Viper and the HK-227S both have Silencers and are both
> capable of burst fire. I just wanted some confirmation before I let my
> players start modifying weapons. Can silencers be used with burst fire
> weapons (Not full auto, they have not get supressors for that one!!)?

The Viper and HK-227S do both have silencers, yes. You can take this to
mean that they are only really effective when firing in semi-automatic
mode, and that when firing bursts (or when using a silencer on a weapon
set to full-automatic mode) the silencer quickly stops being effective. An
explanation for this is that the silencer fills up with the gases
generated by all the rounds being fired, while a suppresser is built to
get rid of most of those gases more quickly. (Note that a silencer would
still be effective when firing on semi-auto even after full-autofire has
gone through it. It wouldn't be permanently destroyed or anything.)

--
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Message no. 13
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 05:25:50 EDT
In a message dated 5/9/99 5:50:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nero@******.net
writes:

> > Hi Everybody, Just a quickie.
> > SR3 states that Silencers can be used with Single Shot or Semi-Auto
> Weapons
> > only. However the Viper and the HK-227S both have Silencers and are both
> > capable of burst fire. I just wanted some confirmation before I let my
> > players start modifying weapons. Can silencers be used with burst fire
> > weapons (Not full auto, they have not get supressors for that one!!)?
>
> Nope(See Sound Suppresser on 281). Probably just a little snafu during
> the writing..can't see any reason those two guns would be exempt.
>
> Nero

That is because both of these weapons are special cases, and were "designed"
to include integral silencing. Its a special feature, only available to
those two particular weapons. No other burst fire weapons are allowed to
have sound supressors.
Message no. 14
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:05:10 -0500
On Mon, 10 May 1999 11:44:08 +1000 "Robert Watkins"
<robert.watkins@******.com> writes:
<SNIP>
>It's 2), in an odd way... the silence is _integral_ to the gun. It's
built
>in, and can't be removed. So, yes, the silencer can not be used with
another
>gun, nor can any other silencer be used with the gun (or any
barrel-mounted
>accessory, actually)

Well, since you (I think) had posted that before I sent the message, I
didn't include it. It wasn't my intention to include all
interpretations.

Note to Doc: If the silencer included in a gun "set" cannot be used in BF
mode, there will be a warning, thus if you use it in BF mode anyway and
the gun blows up, it will be misuse of the product and you would lose
your lawsuit. :)

Isn't there a gun in NAGtRL that has a custom silencer (but not integral)
that only it can use?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 15
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:09:25 +0100
In article <19990509.202347.-836877.0.dghost@****.com>,
dghost@****.com writes
>(Possible) Interpretations:
>1) The "gun" is actually a set; and though a silencer is included in the
>set, the weapon cannot be fired in BF mode without ruining the silencer
>(and probably the gun as well).

Don't tell Heckler and Koch, they've sold _thousands_ of MP-5SDs and they
handle autofire just fine...

>2) The silencer/gun combo is specially engineered to fire in BF mode.
>Thus, this weapon can fire in BF with the accompaning silencer but not
>with any other nor can the silencer be used with another weapon in BF
>mode (In fact, I would rule that under this interpretation the gun cannot
>use other silencers and the silencer won't fit other guns.).

I'd go for this. IRL, silencers are pretty thoroughly weapon-specific. Some
weapons - again, like the MP-5SD - are designed to be suppressed, and so
are very good at it. Others get a canful of baffles screwed on the muzzle
as an afterthought, and so are less efficient.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 16
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Silencers and Burst Fire Weapons.
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:19:32 +0100
In article <19990510040034.26294.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>> Why do you have to say that the silencer acts as a sound suppressor
>in BF or FA mode? Sounds like you're a reactionary GM :)
>
>A) Because I think it makes sense - I doubt any real world silencer
>would work as well when you fire a burst as it would when you fire a
>single shot.

Why not? One shot or ten shots, each individual shot makes no more
noise. The gas is dissipated just as thoroughly, the bullet is subsonic or it
isn't... the biggest problem is overheating, but you can certainly fire a
whole magazine out of a H&K MP-5SD without affecting the (remarkably
effective) suppression...

The big issue with suppressed weapons ends up being the noise of the bolt
cycling, the spent cases jingling, and the noise of bullets hitting hard
objects: reducing the percieved firing signature below those levels is
manageable even today.


--
Paul J. Adam

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