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Message no. 1
From: One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM>
Subject: Silencers...Ronin's Combat Corner Part 2
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:44:35 PST
Greetings once again folks. I think I've fully recovered from my last
post, so this one should be a little better. For obvious reasons (read:
fear of an airborne wet carp), I'm going to try to avoid any serious
physics based discussions. On to the topic at hand.

Silencers. The ultimate tool for firearm carrying runners. One of the
biggest drawbacks of firearms in this business is the sound. Nothing
ruins a runner's stealth better than the report of an Ares Predator
firing those Heavy Pistol rounds. Silencers seem to cure that
problem.......but what kind of drawbacks to they have?

According to the rules, the only drawbacks to having a silencer mounted
on a weapon are less concealability and inability to use a barrel
mounted gas vent system. In real life, silencers have a few more
drawbacks.

First, mounting a silencer on a weapon like a 9mm pistol dramatically
reduces the sound produced from the initial report of the shot.
However, the bullet is still travelling at supersonic speeds, and the
high pitch crack is still quite loud. There are currently two solutions
to that. One being to use subsonic rounds, designed to fly at subsonic
velocities so as to do away with that supersonic "crack" sound. The
other is to use a complex gas venting/rerouting silencer sytem that uses
normal rounds and renders them subsonic (just like the modern day HK
MP-5SD....to see it in action, watch the movies Navy SEALs and Air Force
One). Either way you have to substantially reduce the velocity of the
round to render it truly silent. This brings up a few issues. If the
round is travelling slower, won't it's penetration be reduced?
Probably. Today, when body armor is a rarity, hollow-point rounds fired
from an HK MP-5SD will probably take down a target. But what happens if
that target is wearing armor? Surely the slower rounds will have less
chance of penetrating the armor than faster rounds.

Now, let's look at it from a game mechanics point of view. In my games,
I assume that all silencers render the projectiles fired from them
subsonic. This dispenses with the need for yet another type of
ammunition. As a rule in my games, the attachment of a silencer to a
weapon reduces the power of the rounds fired from that weapon by 2. For
example, a heavy pistol with a silencer would have a damage code of 7M.
This makes PCs think twice about the usefulness of a silencer. Sure
it's useful, but there should be times when not using one is better than
using one. Facing sec goons in heavy armor is a good time to use a
weapon without a silencer.....you need every point of power you can get.
And, for that matter, the goons' weapons will NOT be silenced, so your
cover is blown regardless.

Just some ideas to kick around for GMs....especially if you have a PC
that insists on having each and every weapon he uses equipped with a
silencer. Also, (in my games), weapons using silencers treat ALL armor
as hardened.....i.e., your silenced SMG (power becomes 4-5) will be
unable to penetrate light security armor. Sounds appropriate, doesn't
it?

Anyway, send your comments, corrections, and wet carps this way. Let me
know how much you guys/girls like/dislike these rules.

-Ronin

Mai mentsu konna mai kikyo.

ICQ #:11373195


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Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Silencers...Ronin's Combat Corner Part 2
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:22:14 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, One Ronin wrote:
/
/ In my games,
/ I assume that all silencers render the projectiles fired from them
/ subsonic. This dispenses with the need for yet another type of
/ ammunition. As a rule in my games, the attachment of a silencer to a
/ weapon reduces the power of the rounds fired from that weapon by 2.

Hmm.. since all rounds are rendered subsonic, then wouldn't that
drastically lower the Power of rounds fired from Sniper rifles, whereas
it would hardly matter for a hold-out pistol?

I'd think that silencing rounds in this manner would lower the Power to
a fixed number, say 5, or apply a -1 to the Power, whichever is lower.

So the round coming out of a silenced sniper rifle goes from 14D to 5D,
whereas the round coming out of a hold-out goes from 4L to 3L.

Just a thought :)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: jpmumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Silencers...Ronin's Combat Corner Part 2
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:37:23 -0500
One Ronin wrote:
<SNIP>

>
>
> Just some ideas to kick around for GMs....especially if you have a PC
> that insists on having each and every weapon he uses equipped with a
> silencer. Also, (in my games), weapons using silencers treat ALL armor
> as hardened.....i.e., your silenced SMG (power becomes 4-5) will be
> unable to penetrate light security armor. Sounds appropriate, doesn't
> it?
>
> Anyway, send your comments, corrections, and wet carps this way. Let me
> know how much you guys/girls like/dislike these rules.

Ok here is my one thought on this matter. I am willing to bet that your
PC's go through the book looking for weapons with silencers built in and
have argued that tehy have allready accounted for the decrease in damage in
the design of the weapon.

>
>
> -Ronin

Grimlakin
Message no. 4
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Silencers...Ronin's Combat Corner Part 2
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:27:18 -0800
> Hmm.. since all rounds are rendered subsonic, then wouldn't that
> drastically lower the Power of rounds fired from Sniper rifles, whereas
> it would hardly matter for a hold-out pistol?
>
> I'd think that silencing rounds in this manner would lower the Power to
> a fixed number, say 5, or apply a -1 to the Power, whichever is lower.
>
> So the round coming out of a silenced sniper rifle goes from 14D to 5D,
> whereas the round coming out of a hold-out goes from 4L to 3L.

Well, a lot of the heavier rounds are already quite slow. The muzzle
velocity from a 5.56mm is around 2300 (where most of it's ability to
penetrate armor comes from) I think, but a 7.62 is quite slow in
comparison, somewhere around 12-1400. I can't remember anything else
offhand, and I don't have that chart here now. Another drawback with
silencers is the effect it has on long range accuracy, since it does slow
the round, and the normal type also uses a bit of friction to slow the
round, more expensive ones, like the H&K ones don't have that effect.
Also, you could also theoretically integrate a vent into a suppressor. The
suppressor wouldn't be as effective of course. Well, that's also assuming
that the venting is actually a barrel compensator like you can get now for
pretty much any gun quite cheaply.
Message no. 5
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Silencers...Ronin's Combat Corner Part 2
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:29:43 -0800
> First, mounting a silencer on a weapon like a 9mm pistol dramatically
> reduces the sound produced from the initial report of the shot.
> However, the bullet is still travelling at supersonic speeds, and the
> high pitch crack is still quite loud. There are currently two solutions
> to that. One being to use subsonic rounds, designed to fly at subsonic
> velocities so as to do away with that supersonic "crack" sound.

Well, there's a way around the subsonic crack without losing power. Use
.45ACP 230gr rounds. Virtually all of them are subsonic the way they are.
The old 1911's silence _very_ effectively.
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Silencers...Ronin's Combat Corner Part 2
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:25:47 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Hatchetman wrote:
/
/ > Hmm.. since all rounds are rendered subsonic, then wouldn't that
/ > drastically lower the Power of rounds fired from Sniper rifles, whereas
/ > it would hardly matter for a hold-out pistol?
/ >
/ > I'd think that silencing rounds in this manner would lower the Power to
/ > a fixed number, say 5, or apply a -1 to the Power, whichever is lower.
/ >
/ > So the round coming out of a silenced sniper rifle goes from 14D to 5D,
/ > whereas the round coming out of a hold-out goes from 4L to 3L.
/
/ Well, a lot of the heavier rounds are already quite slow. The muzzle
/ velocity from a 5.56mm is around 2300 (where most of it's ability to
/ penetrate armor comes from) I think, but a 7.62 is quite slow in
/ comparison, somewhere around 12-1400. I can't remember anything else
/ offhand, and I don't have that chart here now. Another drawback with
/ silencers is the effect it has on long range accuracy, since it does slow
/ the round,

So, would it be more accurate to reduce the range of a silenced weapon
(using a silencer that makes the rounds sub-sonic)?

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Silencers...Ronin's Combat Corner Part 2
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:41:26 +0100
According to David Buehrer, at 7:25 on 12 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> So, would it be more accurate to reduce the range of a silenced weapon
> (using a silencer that makes the rounds sub-sonic)?

It would do both: range _and_ armor penetration are reduced, both because
of the lower velocity of the bullet. However, implementing this in SR
probably requires a table that shows how these stats are modified for each
weapon class, instead of giving a blanket statement of "-2 Power Level, -
50% range" or whatever. As has been pointed out, naturally subsonic rounds
(like those from, say, a light pistol or a shotgun) would not be affected
at all, while rifle rounds would be penalized severely.

Something like:

WEAPON POWER RANGE
Light Pistol normal normal
Heavy Pistol -2 90%
SMG -2 80%
Assault Rifle -3 75%

for example. I'm not saying these are in any way definite figures, just
some examples of how the stats might be altered.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He likes to sleep. Sometimes he has good dreams.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Silencers...Ronin's Combat Corner Part 2
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:52:43 -0800
> / Well, a lot of the heavier rounds are already quite slow. The muzzle
> / velocity from a 5.56mm is around 2300 (where most of it's ability to
> / penetrate armor comes from) I think, but a 7.62 is quite slow in
> / comparison, somewhere around 12-1400. I can't remember anything else
> / offhand, and I don't have that chart here now. Another drawback with
> / silencers is the effect it has on long range accuracy, since it does
slow
> / the round,
>
> So, would it be more accurate to reduce the range of a silenced weapon
> (using a silencer that makes the rounds sub-sonic)?

Well that also, or increase TN for longer ranges. You just need to aim
higher. I've never used a silencer on anything other than heavy pistols and
sport/sniper rifles before though. If you're using anything else, they
probably know you're there already anyways. It does slow the bullet down,
and so it does have less power, but it's not really noticable right away,
it still has sufficient muzzle velocity.
Message no. 9
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Silencers...Ronin's Combat Corner Part 2
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:41:37 +0200
Hatchetman wanted to reduce power

David B says

>So, would it be more accurate to reduce the range of a silenced
weapon
>(using a silencer that makes the rounds sub-sonic)?
>
>-David B.


I would be inclined to say that both range and power are going to
suffer, depending
on the ballistic properties of any given firearm and the various
ammunitions for that
firearm.

While we have always known that SR is an abstract system, it's a
little tuough to swallow
that silenced weapons are as effective as unsilenced weapons. Where to
draw a line
that says either subtractions to power or subtractions to range is a
litle beyond the system
as it now stands.

We also have the problem of existing weapons from canon materials with
integral silencing
or supression. (anyone else think the Viper is broken?) Thats gonna be
tough to explain away
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Silencers...Ronin's Combat Corner Part 2
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:33:00 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Gurth wrote:
/
/ According to David Buehrer, the word on the street was...
/
/ > So, would it be more accurate to reduce the range of a silenced weapon
/ > (using a silencer that makes the rounds sub-sonic)?
/
/ It would do both: range _and_ armor penetration are reduced, both because
/ of the lower velocity of the bullet. However, implementing this in SR
/ probably requires a table that shows how these stats are modified for each
/ weapon class, instead of giving a blanket statement of "-2 Power Level, -
/ 50% range" or whatever.

What do you think of: A subsonic silencer reduces the Power of the
weapon by 75% (round up). When determining the base TN use the next
highest range column (a silenced Assault Rifle firing at a target
within Medium range would use the Long range TN).

Using this method a light pistol would be only slightly
inconvenienced. It's power would go from 6L to 5L, and it's maximum
range would go from 50m to 30m. A sniper rifle however would be more
affected. It's Power would go from 14S to 11S and it maximum range
would drop from 1000m to 700m.

I would say that a subsonic silencer would modify perception tests to
notice the shot by +6 (auto or burst fire by +4).

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Silencers...Ronin's Combat Corner Part 2
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:31:31 +0100
According to David Buehrer, at 15:33 on 14 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> What do you think of: A subsonic silencer reduces the Power of the
> weapon by 75% (round up).

No, as this would mean all weapons are penalized, even those that would
not suffer from reduced penetration because their ammo is already
subsonic.

> When determining the base TN use the next highest range column (a
> silenced Assault Rifle firing at a target within Medium range would use
> the Long range TN).

This might work as an easy enough solution, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He likes to sleep. Sometimes he has good dreams.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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