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Message no. 1
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:37:45 -0400
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After some of the discussion about the price of simsense, and a bit of
controversy about exactly what's on a simchip anyway, I decided to
borrow my co-GM's copy of Shadowbeat, and do some research.

First of all, the acronym ASIST stands for Artificial Sensory
Induction System Technology. A long string of ten dollar words that
mean "simsense".
(A week or two back, people were throwing the term ASIST around like
it was "the operating system for a cyberdeck." It's not. It's just the
signal that the cyberdeck or rigger gear or simdeck is pumping into
your gray matter.)

Secondly, there are two types of simsense. "Baseline" simsense is
sensory data, to fool the body's external and internal senses.
"Full-X" simsense manipulates certain neurological systems to make the
viewer experience certain emotions.

Entertainment simsense in 205X does have a distinct plot, though the
stories tend to be heavy on experiences that create a strong physical
and/or emotional rush. There are lots of action sequences, romance,
sex, and the best food you ever tasted. Presumably, the stories are
less complex or told at a faster pace than contemporary movies, as
"Feature Length" for simsense is only one hour.

Since a simsense player features "RAS Override", a system that shuts
down most voluntary muscle control, I suspect that sims can't be much
more than 1 hour, otherwise the audience would get stiff. Titanically
long sims would probably feature an intermission, to allow the
audience to stretch.

Whether simsense runs in real time or not, is debatable. Certain
References in Lone Star Sourcebook (in a section about using simsense
for incarceration and parole) seem to indicate that time can't be
compressed, that a minute in simsense equals a minute in real life.
However Shadowbeat states that the studios do take liberties with
time, fading out over uninteresting blocks of time, flashing back to
earlier parts of the story, and altering the audience's perception of
the rate of time.

The sort of non-linear distortion of time used in entertainment sims
is described in Shadowbeat as being quite obvious, but accepted by the
audience as a convention of the medium. For the purposes of trying to
fool someone into mistaking a simsense experience for Real Life, the
sim would have to run in real time, otherwise the subject will
immediately notice the unreality of the situation, IMO.

Some people have been wondering about the costs of buying a simsense
recording, specifically since the price is tied to running time. The
prices can quickly get astronomical, as the length of a sim rises.

First off, there are two formats that both Baseline Simsense and
Full-X Simsense are available in. The Dir-X format is mostly intended
for theatrical release, or for the private home simtheaters of the
very rich. Since feature length Dir-X takes tens of thousands of
megapulses to store, and costs even more nuyen then that, it's not
likely that any real people would buy Dir-X simsense outright. They'd
buy tickets, sure, but not the movie itself.

The second format, ACT, is the format intended for the home consumer
market. A one hour "feature length" Full-X sim (senses and emotions)
takes up 108 Mp in the ACT format, and a baseline sim (just senses)
takes 36 Mp to store. This is a fraction of the storage space
available on a 500Mp, 10Y compact disc, so media costs shouldn't
really be a factor in sim prices, at the consumer level.

IMHO, it makes sense to standardize the price for sim by asuming that
all entertainment simsense is priced as if it were 60 mintues long,
the standard feature length.

This gives us a price of 540Y for a Full-X current hit. An average,
non current Full-X sim would be 360Y to buy. If you're willing to
bring your own set of emotions to the party, baseline sims cost 1/3
the price of a Full-X. Even at the "cheap" level, an entertainment sim
will run you 60Y for baseline, to 180Y for a cheap Full-X.

180 to 360 to 540 nuyen for a 1 hour recording? This might seem a bit
pricey, especially since a thousand nuyen will buy you a whole month
of Low Lifestyle. However, that 1 hour is a total escape, a vacation
from one's life. And since you bought the tape, you can visit that one
hour of dreamlife whenever you want.

I imagine that simsense rental is also a option. Comparing it to video
tapes in current RL, I'd approximate a new release rental at 20Y per
night. RL, 199X, many videotapes are priced at $100US when they're
first released, because the studios know that only rental stores will
be crazy enough to buy the tapes at that price. 540 nuyen for a hot
new sim doesn't sound too out of line now, does it?
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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 2
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:46:33 -0400
At 12:37 AM 6/11/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Some people have been wondering about the costs of buying a simsense
>recording, specifically since the price is tied to running time. The
>prices can quickly get astronomical, as the length of a sim rises.

Good post Paul. Could have done it myself, as I'm one of the seemingly few
that own Shadowbeat, but couldn't get off my lazy ass to do it...

Anyway, I think I *may* have an answer as to why longer simsense chips cost
more than shorter ones.

Okay, first we looks at modern films.

Titanic. Long movie, oodles of special affects. Lots of post-production,
which includes all those computer generated effects and the editing. Plus
major advertising. Total budget, including the ads, was better than $350
million I believe (I've heard it may have been closer to $450 mil, or as
low as $200 mil, but no one seems to really know the entire budget).

Clerks. A shorter film, black and white, no special affects. Minimal
post-production. Essentially no advertising. I think total budget was
less than $50K.

Now lets make those into simsense, an arena where movie theatres aren't
very common. I believe there are some places where you could go for
simsense like that, but I'm under the impression that simsense has more in
common with the home video market than the public theatre market.

Titanic is the full hour long, done in Full-X and Dir-X and ACT (and has
that thing where you can switch character POVs; this film would have
probably, say, 6 POVs available). Has the best simsense actors available,
and includes huge amounts of time spent on editing and tweaking the
simsense signals. Not to mention the fact that the sets for this simsense
epic would cost insane amounts of money. In fact, the entire production
costs obscene amounts of nuyen.

Now Clerks as a simsense "film." Done only in Baseline and only in ACT,
probably only one Character POV, all done in real time so there would be
minimal editing and post-production of the sim signal. Relatively small
budget.

Now, both sims have to recover their money. The longer, more heavily done
Titanic is going to have far more cost to recover than the minimal Clerks.
In order to recoup their nuyen, Titanic *has* to cost more to purchase or
rent than Clerks. Remember I'm using more of a home rental market model
than the current theatrical release model. If a film like Titanic had
*only* the rental market to rely on, it would almost certainly cost more
than a low-budget indie film to rent or buy.

It's an idea anyway.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 3
From: Wraith <wraith@************.COM>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:13:55 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
>At 12:37 AM 6/11/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Now lets make those into simsense, an arena where movie theatres aren't
>very common. I believe there are some places where you could go for
>simsense like that, but I'm under the impression that simsense has more in
>common with the home video market than the public theatre market.
>


The novel "Dead Air" starts off with some guy going into a Simsense theater.
I don't know how common they are, but this one seemed to involve a place
where you can rent trode rigs for the non-cybered, or data cords for your
datajack (I assume you could bring your own too, but who knows? You can't
bring food into a movie theater now...). You then go to a room where you
sit in a comfy chair (if you ain't going to move for an hour, you want to be
in a seat that's comfortable IMHO) and plug your datacord/trode rig into a
port on the chair. Its been a while since I've read "Dead Air" so I might
be a little off on some of the details, but this is basically what is said.

Perhaps the reason for this is because Dir-X players are expensive and
regular simrigs, while able to play sims like that, don't give the same
quality...(today, a movie theater gives better sound/ picture quality,as
opposed to a video you rented, unless you shell out a lot of money to get
surround sound, wide screen TV, etc..)

Wraith
Message no. 4
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:16:17 -0400
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At 01:46 PM 6/11/98 -0400, Eric J.wrote:
>Anyway, I think I *may* have an answer as to why longer simsense
chips cost
>more than shorter ones.
>
>Okay, first we looks at modern films.
>

<<Snip Titanic, reeeeeely high budget film>>

>Clerks. A shorter film, black and white, no special affects.
Minimal
>post-production. Essentially no advertising. I think total budget
was
>less than $50K.

The 3 minute music video for Soul Asylum's song "Can't Even Tell",
from the Clerks soundtrack cost about twice as much as the original
movie did. Along similar lines, the guy (name escapes me at the
moment) who made the independent film "Swingers" had a bit of a
surprise while starring on "The Lost World: Jurassic Park." Seems he
started comparing budgets with Spielburg, and found out that the
entire cost of production for "Swingers" was less than the catering
budget for "Lost World".

>Now lets make those into simsense, an arena where movie theatres
aren't
>very common. I believe there are some places where you could go for
>simsense like that, but I'm under the impression that simsense has
more in
>common with the home video market than the public theatre market.

The impression that I got was that sim theaters were rarer than movie
theaters, but they weren't exactly scarce. I'd guess about 5-10 sim
theaters in a large metroplex like Seatle.

<<Snip Titanic and Clerks as sims>>

>Now, both sims have to recover their money. The longer, more heavily
done
>Titanic is going to have far more cost to recover than the minimal
Clerks.
>In order to recoup their nuyen, Titanic *has* to cost more to
purchase or
>rent than Clerks. Remember I'm using more of a home rental market
model
>than the current theatrical release model. If a film like Titanic
had
>*only* the rental market to rely on, it would almost certainly cost
more
>than a low-budget indie film to rent or buy.

The model I like to use is for the "movie ride" market. It's one of
the fastest growing segments of the entertainment industry. Some
rides, for example, Jurassic Park: The Ride, ended up costing more to
build than the original movie cost to make (and JP wasn't exactly
cheap to start with).

Even with the high cost of development and construction (not to
mention maintenence) these movie rides make enough money that the
themeparks and resorts keep building more and more of them. If they
can turn that sort of proffit with these movie rides, considering
they're somewhat scarce outside of Hollywood, Vegas, and Orlando,
consider the amount of income the sim studios would be able to bring
in with even just one or two sim theaters in each of the major
metropolitan areas, let alone 5-10.

>It's an idea anyway.

Yes it is. A rental/sale only model goes a long way to explaining the
high prices. Even if the sim studios were making money through
theatrical release, I could still see the prices being rather high.
Sim is more expensive, simply because it provides a higher level of
escapism.

Another thought: Since sim is rather expensive to own, I would imagine
that if there is a sim rental market, the discs are likely
copy-protected. The average runner wouldn't have too much problem with
the copy protection, since I imagine it's easyily enough defeatable by
any decker worthy of the term. Regular folk on the other hand, might
find it harder to just "dub off a copy"

Since sim isn't especially plot driven (a plot is there, but only to
give a reason for the intense sensory experiences to be tied together)
perhaps there's a market for just specific scenes out of popular
simsense titles.

The way this would work, the wageslave would rent a simsense disk of
the latest hit, watch it, and if they really enjoyed say, the second
lovemaking scene, they'd slot their credstick into their home
terminal, and order the decryption code that'd let their deck dub off
a copy of that particular scene. That way, they're only actually
buying 15-20 mintues of simsense, whatever their favorite part happens
to be.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 5
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:29:12 -0400
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At 01:13 PM 6/11/98 -0500, Wraith wrote:
>The novel "Dead Air" starts off with some guy going into a Simsense
theater.

Alright. I've not read "Dead Air" but from the description posted, it
sounds very similar to the way I pictured a sim theater to be.

A sim theater would need one commercial grade Dir-X player for each
title that plays simultaniously. There's another piece of equipment,
called a multiplexer, that distributes the signal from the player to
each seat in the theater. From the pricing structure listed in
Shadowbeat, it would be reasonable to asume that one
player/multiplexer serves a large number of seats. This would make it
very much like a conventional theater, a large room with a reasonable
seating capacity, where everyone files in and sits down at around the
same time to enjoy the same title.

Where things would differ however, is that there is no requirement
that every seat need a clear line of sight to the screen, because
there is no screen. This means no sloped floors, and alternate rows of
the comfy chairs might be facing each other, or the seating might not
be in rows at all. The floorplan might be more like a restaruant, with
tables and booths for conversation and snacks before and after the
sim, and perhaps during the intermission.

>Perhaps the reason for this is because Dir-X players are expensive
and
>regular simrigs, while able to play sims like that, don't give the
same
>quality...(today, a movie theater gives better sound/ picture
quality,as
>opposed to a video you rented, unless you shell out a lot of money to
get
>surround sound, wide screen TV, etc..)

Correct analogy, however, what I consider "regular" simplayers, the
ACT format players, simply are not "able to play sims like that".
There are consumer model simplayers that can handle Dir-X, but they're
grossly expensive. Even if they weren't, Dir-X sim itself is also
grossly expesnive.

Now, getting back to sim theaters, my best guess places the ticket
price at 50 nuyen. Again, simsense is on the expensive side. These
theaters have a large capital investment to recover, and Dir-X
versions of the latest hits run in the tens of thousands of nuyen to
buy (though I imagine the theaters lease the sim instead).

The process by which I arrived at a 50Y ticket price involves a lot of
sheer speculation, but it does reality check against a few other
numbers, some offical FASA cannon, and some, my own guestimations on
other simsense related prices.

A 50Y ticket price is a little over twice as much as the 20 nuyen
price I came up with for renting a simsense new release (20 nuyen
being about 1/25th of the purchase price of a hot new simsense). 50
for a ticket vs 20 to rent it "feels" about right, when compared to
today's prices.

In Shadowbeat, one of the telcom/trideo/matrix services available for
residences is Dir-X Simsense titles, piped into your home. This is
normally only available at the High and Luxury Lifestyles, but if you
don't have one of those, the service will set you back 10KY a month.

I'm guessing that this is the rough equivilent to today's premium
movie channels. Doing some rough math, if you asume that it's six
different sim titles a day, repeated 4 times in a 24 hour period, that
works out to aproximately 55 nuyen per title. If sim is concurently
released in theaters and on premium networks, then perhaps theater
tickets should be adjusted down to the 40-45 nuyen range, to better
reflect the fact that wacthing the new title in your own home is going
to be more expensive.

If however, the sim industry keeps the same pattern as the film
industry did, and releases their titles "Only in Theaters" first, then
it doesn't make sense to charge more when the title is later released
for premium broadcast. A schedule of 8 different titles, broadcast 3
times daily, works out to a little over 40 nuyen a title. This way,
the rich still get the prestiege of watching recent sims at home, but
if you want to see the new ones while they're still as hot as can be,
it'll cost more.

Hopefully, some ballpark figures for these prices (40-50Y for a
theater ticket, 20Y for a rental) will help with adding downtime
detail all your Shadowrun games out there.

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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:18:41 -0400
At 04:16 PM 6/11/98 -0400, you wrote:

>The impression that I got was that sim theaters were rarer than movie
>theaters, but they weren't exactly scarce. I'd guess about 5-10 sim
>theaters in a large metroplex like Seatle.

In a city as large as Seattle, 5-10 theatres is scarce.

BUT I like your analogy to the "event" rides such as Universal Studios
"Jurassic Park: the Ride." You'd have to make those simsense theatres into
palaces, make the entire excursion into a major event.

You'll also notice that theme park ticket prices have gone up every year,
not just with inflation but to pay for this massively expensive theme
parks. I mean, an adult admission to Disneyland is close to $50 dollars
now!! I can remember not too long ago when it was down around $20...


>>It's an idea anyway.
>
>Yes it is. A rental/sale only model goes a long way to explaining the
>high prices. Even if the sim studios were making money through
>theatrical release, I could still see the prices being rather high.
>Sim is more expensive, simply because it provides a higher level of
>escapism.

Thank you. It just occurs to me, that while the medium (the optical chips)
cost a relatively static amound of nuyen, the cost going into the
production itself isn't, and would vary wildly.

>Another thought: Since sim is rather expensive to own, I would imagine
>that if there is a sim rental market, the discs are likely
>copy-protected. The average runner wouldn't have too much problem with
>the copy protection, since I imagine it's easyily enough defeatable by
>any decker worthy of the term. Regular folk on the other hand, might
>find it harder to just "dub off a copy"

Probably very true. I get the impression, from the stuff written about
BTLs, that a fair amount of sims could be "one use only" type chips that
burn out after use. So to rent a sim wouldn't obviously cost the full
amount that's been quoted, but to own it, it would be. And rentals &
one-timers might be on a more flattened cost scale also.

>Since sim isn't especially plot driven (a plot is there, but only to
>give a reason for the intense sensory experiences to be tied together)
>perhaps there's a market for just specific scenes out of popular
>simsense titles.

You know...without saying too much about my own habits and whatnot, this
sounds a lot like the porn industry in many way. There are vast numbers of
videotapes that are nothing more than compilations, featuring one
particular thing like Blondes or Blondes with Biggun's or whatever. These
are dirt cheap to make and make almost pure profit for the video company.

>The way this would work, the wageslave would rent a simsense disk of
>the latest hit, watch it, and if they really enjoyed say, the second
>lovemaking scene, they'd slot their credstick into their home
>terminal, and order the decryption code that'd let their deck dub off
>a copy of that particular scene. That way, they're only actually
>buying 15-20 mintues of simsense, whatever their favorite part happens
>to be.

To continue my porn industry analogy, guess who'd be at the leading edge of
implementing this sort of concept? Probably the 205X purveyors of "blue
movies." I mean, today, who started using DVD & laser disks and video
CD-ROMs before nearly anyone else? Porn companies. Just like the
megacorps of SR, porn companies will adopt nearly any technology if they
think it'll make them more money, and they make piles of it now. Even more
"conservative" companies like Playboy are starting to get aggressive about
DVD; for about six months now, they've released all their soft-core films
on both video *and* DVD. Name one film company that's doing that to all
their films; they only do it to their major releases.

And considering that a fair amount of simsense seems to be extremely sexual
in nature (you actually get to *be* Dirk Diggler...), I don't think my
connections/analogies are that far off...

Erik J.

Who actually prefers Brunettes to Blondes and won't say anything more about
his own preferences in public...
Message no. 7
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:03:29 -0400
At 05:29 PM 6/11/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Now, getting back to sim theaters, my best guess places the ticket
>price at 50 nuyen. Again, simsense is on the expensive side. These
>theaters have a large capital investment to recover, and Dir-X
>versions of the latest hits run in the tens of thousands of nuyen to
>buy (though I imagine the theaters lease the sim instead).

50nY? Let me think...yeah, that seems about right. Perhaps luxury
theatres in Downtown Seattle and Bellevue would cost more, since their
chairs are "real Corinthian leather" and whatnot...

>A 50Y ticket price is a little over twice as much as the 20 nuyen
>price I came up with for renting a simsense new release (20 nuyen
>being about 1/25th of the purchase price of a hot new simsense). 50
>for a ticket vs 20 to rent it "feels" about right, when compared to
>today's prices.

Again, seems about right to me, though I'd say that a rental chip would
have a range of cost. Say, 10nY for an older and shorter sim, up to 30nY
for new long ones like Titanic, featuring Holly Brighton! Most sims would
fall around 20nY as you suggested.

>I'm guessing that this is the rough equivilent to today's premium
>movie channels. Doing some rough math, if you asume that it's six
>different sim titles a day, repeated 4 times in a 24 hour period, that
>works out to aproximately 55 nuyen per title. If sim is concurently
>released in theaters and on premium networks, then perhaps theater
>tickets should be adjusted down to the 40-45 nuyen range, to better
>reflect the fact that wacthing the new title in your own home is going
>to be more expensive.

Think more in terms not in cable, but in DirecTV satellite dishes. As an
aside, those things f*ckin' ROCK!! Anyway...the premium channels are all
available, plus. My dish gets SEVEN channels of HBO, the four prime
channels and then east coast feeds for three of them. More than cable.
Then there's the pay-per-view channels, with something like 40 channels
offering near on-demand movies. All with a few pushes of the remote's
buttons. I'd think that home entertainment, including sims, isn't much
more than a magnification of what's currently on the dish. On demand sims
and films, oodles of channels devoted to anything and everything.

Just like there's a channel all about Bobs in SR, there are some seriously
odd channels available on the dish. The Food Network? The Home
Improvement Network? The Travel Channel? All sorts of odd-ball stuff.

>If however, the sim industry keeps the same pattern as the film
>industry did, and releases their titles "Only in Theaters" first, then
>it doesn't make sense to charge more when the title is later released
>for premium broadcast. A schedule of 8 different titles, broadcast 3
>times daily, works out to a little over 40 nuyen a title. This way,
>the rich still get the prestiege of watching recent sims at home, but
>if you want to see the new ones while they're still as hot as can be,
>it'll cost more.

I think you're mostly right. I'd think though, that instead of the current
three to six month (or so) delay from theatres into home video, it would be
compressed down to under a month. Big sims like Titanic! with Holly
Brighton would get a big splashy premiere, be a major theatre event for a
few weeks, then make it available for home pay-per-view within 3-4 weeks,
then to the rental market in about 6-8 weeks. Which would be compressing
the current scheme by at least half, if not a lot more (Titanic will be on
video in September (ick), something like 10 months after theatrical release).

>Hopefully, some ballpark figures for these prices (40-50Y for a
>theater ticket, 20Y for a rental) will help with adding downtime
>detail all your Shadowrun games out there.

Hey, it's these tiny bits of color that make a game of SR jump up to the
next level of fun. That's why books like Shadowbeat are actually quite
cool to own.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 8
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:07:57 -0500
Erik said:
<snipalot>
>Titanic. Long movie, oodles of special affects. Lots of
>post-production,
>which includes all those computer generated effects and the editing.
>Plus
>major advertising. Total budget, including the ads, was better than
>$350
>million I believe (I've heard it may have been closer to $450 mil, or
>as
>low as $200 mil, but no one seems to really know the entire budget).
>
>Clerks. A shorter film, black and white, no special affects. Minimal
>post-production. Essentially no advertising. I think total budget
>was
>less than $50K.
That was produced local to me, by somebody who lived near where it was
filmed(remember hearing about it in the paper or somewhere once)..He was
one of the characters, plus did the writing and directing. I'd say it was
under $25K, maybe. But anyway....
>Now lets make those into simsense, an arena where movie theatres
>aren't
>very common. I believe there are some places where you could go for
>simsense like that, but I'm under the impression that simsense has
>more in
>common with the home video market than the public theatre market.
>
>Titanic is the full hour long, done in Full-X and Dir-X and ACT (and
>has
>that thing where you can switch character POVs; this film would have
>probably, say, 6 POVs available). Has the best simsense actors
>available,
>and includes huge amounts of time spent on editing and tweaking the
>simsense signals. Not to mention the fact that the sets for this
>simsense
>epic would cost insane amounts of money. In fact, the entire
>production
>costs obscene amounts of nuyen.
>
>Now Clerks as a simsense "film." Done only in Baseline and only in
>ACT,
>probably only one Character POV, all done in real time so there would
>be
>minimal editing and post-production of the sim signal. Relatively
>small
>budget.

Also with a lot of things being done by the same person, likely...very
small budget.

>Now, both sims have to recover their money. The longer, more heavily
>done
>Titanic is going to have far more cost to recover than the minimal
>Clerks.
>In order to recoup their nuyen, Titanic *has* to cost more to purchase
>or
>rent than Clerks. Remember I'm using more of a home rental market
>model
>than the current theatrical release model. If a film like Titanic had
>*only* the rental market to rely on, it would almost certainly cost
>more
>than a low-budget indie film to rent or buy.
<snip sig>

John

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Message no. 9
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:41:55 -0400
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At 06:18 PM 6/11/98 -0400, Eric J. wrote:
>I get the impression, from the stuff written about
>BTLs, that a fair amount of sims could be "one use only" type chips
that
>burn out after use. So to rent a sim wouldn't obviously cost the
full
>amount that's been quoted, but to own it, it would be. And rentals &
>one-timers might be on a more flattened cost scale also.

It wouldn't have to be that harsh. The reason that BTL pushers use
chips that actually burn out is to keep their clientbase coming back
for more.

The simsense industry would probably use a variation of the Divx disks
that are around today. For those of who aren't familiar with Divx,
it's a mutant offshoot version of standard DVD video disks. The video
data on a Divx disk is encrypted, and IIRC, each individual disk has
its own serial number. You go out to the store, buy a Divx disk for
around 4-6 dollars.

Then when you get it home and pop the disk into your Divx player, a
modem in the player dials out to the central computer, logs the disk's
serial number, and gets a decryption code. For the first 48 hours
after you first insert the disk, any player will be allowed to dial in
to decrypt and be able to play the disk. After that, that disk's
serial number is locked out, and you can't play it any more. You can,
however, call an 800 number, give them your credit card info, and they
charge you 2-3 dollars, to let you decrypt and play the disk anytime
within another 24 hour period.

Divx's proponents say it's just like renting, execept you don't have
to worry about returning the disk. Personally, if I'm going to own a
copy of a title, I don't like having to pay someone any time I want to
view that title. I worry that if Divx does take off as the new model
for video rental and ownership, other industries, like software, might
try something similar (How would it change things if the software
license to your email client were a rental agreement?). Finally, my
bigest gripe about Divx is that it's keeping people from embracing the
new DVDs, because no one wants to get caught with another Betamax.
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-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
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Message no. 10
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:16:19 -0300
Erik Jameson escreveu:
>
>
>
> Probably very true. I get the impression, from the stuff written about
> BTLs, that a fair amount of sims could be "one use only" type chips that
> burn out after use. So to rent a sim wouldn't obviously cost the full
> amount that's been quoted, but to own it, it would be. And rentals &
> one-timers might be on a more flattened cost scale also.

Maybe those one-use chips wouldn't even need a simplayer: The user
would
just plug it straight into his/her datajack (Microsoft DirectJack(TM) by
Mitsuhama ? :) )


>
>
> >The way this would work, the wageslave would rent a simsense disk of
> >the latest hit, watch it, and if they really enjoyed say, the second
> >lovemaking scene, they'd slot their credstick into their home
> >terminal, and order the decryption code that'd let their deck dub off
> >a copy of that particular scene. That way, they're only actually
> >buying 15-20 mintues of simsense, whatever their favorite part happens
> >to be.
>
>
> And considering that a fair amount of simsense seems to be extremely sexual
> in nature (you actually get to *be* Dirk Diggler...), I don't think my
> connections/analogies are that far off...
>


Well I think that only true pornographic simsense would have
"lovemaking" scenes... or
at least "1st person" ones. I don't think action movies or something
like that has real sex scenes
anyway... or do them?

Bira
Message no. 11
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:59:51 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:16 AM 6/12/98 -0300, Bira wrote:
> Maybe those one-use chips wouldn't even need a simplayer: The user
>would just plug it straight into his/her datajack

Many BTLs are designed exactly this way. Right now, I'm combing my
source books, so I can post a summary lesson about BTL, like I did for
Simsense.

>> And considering that a fair amount of simsense seems to be
extremely sexual
>> in nature (you actually get to *be* Dirk Diggler...), I don't think
my
>> connections/analogies are that far off...
>
> Well I think that only true pornographic simsense would have
>"lovemaking" scenes... or
>at least "1st person" ones. I don't think action movies or something
>like that has real sex scenes
>anyway... or do them?

- From the impression I got, there is at least a little sex in any
simsense, even the action ones. Today's films can get away with
showing sex and not being considered pornographic, by not being to
graphic in their depiction of sex. Since simsense is 1st person,
there's no way to hide what's going on with clever camera angles and
strategically placed sheets, so I imagine that the standard for what's
allowable would have had to been shifted upwards.

Does the sex advance the plot of the sim? Is it between two consenting
adults who are in a loving relationship, are are at least falling in
love with each other as a result of the events in the plot of the sim?
Is the sex fairly straightforward, and not especially kinky? If so,
then the sim probably wouldn't be considered pornographic.

Sims with little plot, just sex scene after sex scene, with no
established relationships between the partners, sims with scenes with
multiple partners, and sims with sex that much of the population would
consider kinky -- those sims would be the ones considered
pornographic.

There is also the time constraint. Sex in a sim that's actually trying
to tell a story (however weak or improbable the plot is) would likely
only be a little 'quickie' sanwiched between action sequences, since
the usual sim only runs an hour or so. There might only be enough time
for things to reach the heavy petting stage before things get
interupted.

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PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 12
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long]
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:38:51 -0400
At 01:16 AM 6/12/98 -0300, you wrote:

>> And considering that a fair amount of simsense seems to be extremely sexual
>> in nature (you actually get to *be* Dirk Diggler...), I don't think my
>> connections/analogies are that far off...
>>
>
> Well I think that only true pornographic simsense would have
>"lovemaking" scenes... or
>at least "1st person" ones. I don't think action movies or something
>like that has real sex scenes
>anyway... or do them?


Yeah, they do, or at least that's the strong impression I get from
Shadowbeat and from other sources.

Think about it. Simsense is all about sensation; what it feels like to do
something and have that experience hightened. Actually *being* a
hero/shadowrunner would be an incredible thrill for the average wage slave.

And what is possibly the most intense sensation a human being can enjoy
that doesn't involve drugs? Sex. Other, "extreme" activities like say,
sky diving and bungee jumping are intense also and would be prime for a
simsense chip. But sex...sex is king.

Now, there are things like "documentary" simsense and there's I'm sure a
pile of sims without any sex at all. But if you look at the current rental
market, who's making the piles of money? Pornographic videotapes make more
money than the rest of the entire video industry. *That's* where the big
money is (even though no one you know has ever rented a porno, least of all
yourself...).

So the end result is a rather sizable amount of sex in mainstream simsense.

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 13
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long])
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:32:12 -0500
On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:43:25 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>At 12:42 PM 6/13/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>Warning!!! This posting does deal with stronger sexual issues and I am

>>simply putting this "semi-spoiler" in for everyone's general benefit.
IF
>>anyone >decides to reply to this, either use some spoiler space (such
as this
>>paragraph) or make it a personal email. I don't want to offend anyone,
but I
>>also feel it's time we got our collective heads out of our collective
A$$ES
>>as to just how far "Hard Core" can really be in Shadowrun, 20XX (you
can add
>>the last X yourself).
>>
>>-K
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Now then, on this thought, what would a "Hardcore Sim" be like?

>Oh, the possibilities!!
>
<SNIP Plain Vanilla :)>

>>Animalia and/or Constraints would also be considered at the medium end.
And I

>That'd properly Bestiality and Bondage & Domination.
>
>Bestality probably would *not* be "medium end." That's serious
hardcore,
>even today. It's maybe a purely mental thing, but for the vast
majority,
>it's one thing to have an orgy, it's something else entirely to screw a
>dog. A "swinger" would be looked on as odd, not normal. Someone caught
>having sex with an animal would be ostracized, rejected by the entire
>community.

Hmmm... actually the first thing that came to mind was Shapeshifters ...
(kind of like one of the sex scenes in an American Werewolf in Paris) ...
In which case, he might not be off ... normal animals would be a
different matter ... hmmm ... what about paranormals? Some "critters"
are considered sentient like the Sasquatch ... Also the Centaur & Satyr
are debatably sentient (I'm sure the Satyrs wouldn't object to
"assisting" in a XXX sim ...).

>B&D would depend. You'd probably get some really light B&D even in
normal
>sims (leather corsets and/or pants for example) and then you could crank
it
>up all the way to extreme hardcore with real whippings and chains and
>piercings (unwilling perhaps?). And there's a lot in-between.

... anything with intense feelings (helplessness from the B&D, or pain
from the S&M) would, IMO, be very popular asa sims ...

>>On the flipside of this, you get to find your "favorite partner" in the

>>middle of cheating on your "best friend". You decide to watch, then
walk in
>>and "join them". But as the scenes progress, you Fu@* them both in
whatever
>>style, and kill them with whatever method is available. And then, as
that
>>isn't enough for your currently level of rage/enflamed passion, you do
'em
>>both once they are dead.

>Now we're getting away from pure porn sims into snuff. Snuff BTLs
(black
>BTLs) in SR and snuff films today are seriously illegal. So I seriously
>doubt you'd be able to walk down to the local Blockbuster (american
video
>store chain) and pick up a snuff simsense.

In a porn context I think this situation would more likely lead to a B&D
or S&M scene ... though, K didn't say whether he meant kill as in dead or
kill as in pretend to be dead for the sim ...

>>AND that is just barely getting into the "Hard Core" areas. Believe me

>>folks, I have seen far worse that exists today, and goes -way- beyond
>>mutilation.

>Hard Core is really defined by the culture also. In some tribes and in
>many, if not most, royal families, incest of some degree is/was
considered
>normal (especially in royalty when marrying your cousin was the only way
to
>make sure the bloodline was pure). However, in modern American society,
>incest is a Jerry Springer topic (an extremely tasteless talk show that
>loves anything "perverse").

IIRC, incest was real popular in amonst the "royalty" (is that
appropriate?) of egypt ... Hey maybe in 205x, they'll dig up Jerry
Springer tapes for XXX Sim ideas ... "Transvestite Dwarf Amputees IV"
(That's from some joke about Jerry Springer I can't remember entirely ...
)

>And as I alluded to in the fashion posts, light Bondage & Domination
(which
>is also sometimes called S&M) has nearly become a part of mainstream pop
>culture. Five to ten years ago, even light B&D was considered
"perverse"
>by many.

Actually just straight ropes/constraints is B&D ... Pain is S&M ... I
don't know if B&D and S&M would become mainstream but maybe fetish would
(would fetish still be fetish if it's mainstream?)

>I could go on and on in this light. "Shockability" is part of it, but
also
>simply has to do with the culture in question.

>>We hope it will never reach the "Hard Sim" stage where suddenly
"Pedophilia"
>>becomes the number one hardsim you can purchase on the shelf. We hope
it
>>will never reach the stage where both you and your partner can get an
>>"Interactive Simplayer", just so you can heighten each other's
awareness by
>playing the "Until Death Do We Part" simfeed.

>Pedophilia? I seriously doubt you will ever be able to pick that up off
>the shelf. *However*, much like snuff films, pedophilia is a very
>underground thing and would likely remain that way. Want to inject both
>morality *and* depravity into an SR game? Have your runners try to
track
>down a child that has been kidnapped for a kiddie porn sim ring, and
have
>them offer a large sum of money to have the PCs forget about the whole
>thing...

... That's almost evil ... it is evil if the runners thought it'd be cool
to play the extreme mercenary (ie *ANY*thing for the right kind of money)
characters ... :)

>>Sexual action is just about the basest of experiences in our social
world
>>that is both widespread accepted and widespread misunderstood. As the
>>"SimChip" and the "BTL" would become more and more prevalent,
I can
readily
>>see the need to delve further and further into the "Sexual Shadows"
would
>>increase as well.

>Agreed. However, as we have discussed, sex is a (no pun intended)
sticky
>subject and many roleplayers are ill-equipped to handle it in a mature
>fashion. That may be because they are too young or it may be that their
>sexual experience is limited and/or colored by the media and not their
own
>experiences. In addition, I think companies are loathe to go into the
>subject for fear of being labeled pornography and/or driving away
younger
>customers and women.

It really is a shame, IMO ... Sex is one of the defining points of
cultures and can sometimes give real insights into the culture (By this I
mean sex in the broadest sense of the word). I mean, in days of yore,
kissing before marriage was a major no-no, and in the middle east there
is that veil/keep women covered up thing that I don't know enough to
really comment about :) ...

>But the possibilities are practically boundless. For those of you that
>have read Wold & Raven, the mobster does kidnap women so he can sell
them
>off to the highest bidder; probably happens within the "canon" FASA SR
>world also. Good old fashioned "white" slavery.

Actually, Cyberpirates gives the Price Index for Sex Slaves (pg 137-138)
...Sex Slaves SE Asia are only 30% of Seatle prices ... but no where that
I know of are the Seatle prices for Sex Slaves given ...

>We also know that through
>the Matrix, musicians don't *have* to sell out to a label, they can just
>distribute their music over the Matrix. Pornographers of all stripes,
from
>the vanilla to the extremely illegal, can do that same sort of thing
>(that's what they are doing now...). And with organized crime and
>corporations that are law unto themselves, there's sure to be massive
>amounts of nuyen to be made in the skin trade.

I don't know ... Can they do that with simsense? I guess they can since
CDecks create simsense on the fly and upload it into your melon ... hmmmm
...

<SNIP>

>I just hope that if/as this thread continues, we can keep up the focus
and
>not get bogged down in making judgements or juvenile jokes.
>
>Erik J.
<SNIP Sig>

YupYup ... hope so ... :)

Btw.... I'm surprised no one's mentioned Hentai in this thread yet ...
That would seriously kick ass but would also be alot of work ... hmmmm
... maybe requiring a specialized CyberDeck and a virtual machine? (ie
program a virtual hentai universe into a virtual machine and then deck to
control the characters ... only some of the deckers would be hooked up
with simrigs ... perhaps a little something in the simsense rigs to beef
the emotional response ... hmmm for safety the host would have to be
seperated from the `trix but if it wasn't, it might be "the rage" to deck
into the latest hentai simflick and see if you make it into the final Wax
version of the sim.)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 14
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long])
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:06:54 -0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
>
>
> Btw.... I'm surprised no one's mentioned Hentai in this thread yet ...
> That would seriously kick ass but would also be alot of work ... hmmmm
> ... maybe requiring a specialized CyberDeck and a virtual machine? (ie
> program a virtual hentai universe into a virtual machine and then deck to
> control the characters ... only some of the deckers would be hooked up
> with simrigs ... perhaps a little something in the simsense rigs to beef
> the emotional response ... hmmm for safety the host would have to be
> seperated from the `trix but if it wasn't, it might be "the rage" to deck
> into the latest hentai simflick and see if you make it into the final Wax
> version of the sim.)
>


Computer-Generated simfeed, I guess... You'd need lots of specialized
equipment to generate
(just as animation today), but otherwise I think it would run on a
normal simsense player after
the production work is finished.

Bira
Message no. 15
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Simsense, Some Basic Facts [Long])
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:47:22 -0400
At 10:06 PM 6/15/98 -0300, you wrote:
>Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>>
>> Btw.... I'm surprised no one's mentioned Hentai in this thread yet ...
>> That would seriously kick ass but would also be alot of work ... hmmmm
>> ... maybe requiring a specialized CyberDeck and a virtual machine? (ie
>> program a virtual hentai universe into a virtual machine and then deck to
>> control the characters ... only some of the deckers would be hooked up
>> with simrigs ... perhaps a little something in the simsense rigs to beef
>> the emotional response ... hmmm for safety the host would have to be
>> seperated from the `trix but if it wasn't, it might be "the rage" to
deck
>> into the latest hentai simflick and see if you make it into the final Wax
>> version of the sim.)

Actually, I think this would be very popular amongst deckers and other
Matrix junkies. For many of those folks, the Matrix is as real, and
sometimes more so, than "real life." It makes total sense that they would
then be the ones to really get into virtual sex. And that is what you are
talking about.

Virtual sex (not simsense sex) probably takes place in secure Matrix
locations and are "virtual brothels" or "virtual singles clubs." I
say
secure because the decker's have dropped their defenses and are actually
*looking* for that biofeedback response. And I'm sure you can use software
reality filters to make things like like a hentai film or whatever.

You could use this process also to "act" in a hentai film.

Of course, you wouldn't even really need actors for animated simsense.

According to Shadowbeat and Prime Runners, simsense is far more than just
cutting and pasting together someone's recorded experiences. Those signals
are manipulated, added to, cut, amplified, extended and shortened by the
technicians back in the studio behind the mixing board. They also have
things called "patches" that give out a certain signal (say, pleasure) but
most patches are fairly obvious (which is why the top sim actors/actresses
are top; not only can they give good urge, they don't need to be patched as
often, so less work for the techs).

So if you animate something, then experience it via the Matrix (so you get
your auditory and visual stimuli), then slot nothing but modified patches,
you'd have hentai without the need for more than a couple of people, none
of whom need to be terribly talented. Yes, the patches would be obvious to
the audience as patches, but I doubt most folks interested in simsense
hentai would care terribly.

Of course, if you could somehow match the animated action with something
really going on to the actress/actor, you would get a premium quality
hentai sim...

You know, Shadowbeat is one of those books that you look at after several
years and realize just how useful it can be. Sure, guns and gear books
give you immediate gratification, but something like Shadowbeat sort of
grows on you after time before you realize it's utility.

Erik J.

Who would say that Shadowbeat does have the worst cover art though...

Further Reading

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