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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:49:25 -0700
Lehlan Decker wrote:
/
/ On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 05:45:11PM +0000, James Lindsay wrote:
/ > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:16:44 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
/ <SNIP>
/ > > I wish people would get this right... SINLess, in the UCAS anyway, have
/ > > rights. They have the same rights as someone with a SIN, except possibly the
/ > > right to vote, but they could get a SIN and get that too.
/ > >
/ > > Of course, on corp turf, your milage may vary. But in the UCAS, the SINless
/ > > are people too, you know.
/ >
/ > Is this canon? Could you provide references? I'm not calling you a liar
/ > but I would like to show this to my ref.
/ >
/ Hmm...I most have missed the first reply. As far as I know there
/ are several references through the novels, Lone Star book, and probably
/ even BBB.

Also, if current US law is still applicable in the UCAS and the CAS
you don't have to be a citizen (SIN) to benefit from the laws.
However, actual law enforcement might not be helpful (for example, if
an illegal alien is robbed he might not receive as much attention as
a legal citizen in the same situation).

I have no idea what policy is in other countries.

BTW, this is one of those topics that pops up from time to time and
ends up starting a few brush fires. Please keep in mind that opinion
varies :)

-David
--
"The best way to cheer yourself is to try to cheer somebody else up."
- Mark Twain
--
ShadowRN GridSec
mailto:dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:58:51 -0500
On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 11:49:25AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> /
<SNIP>
> / >
> / Hmm...I most have missed the first reply. As far as I know there
> / are several references through the novels, Lone Star book, and probably
> / even BBB.
>
> Also, if current US law is still applicable in the UCAS and the CAS
> you don't have to be a citizen (SIN) to benefit from the laws.
> However, actual law enforcement might not be helpful (for example, if
> an illegal alien is robbed he might not receive as much attention as
> a legal citizen in the same situation).
>
> I have no idea what policy is in other countries.
>
> BTW, this is one of those topics that pops up from time to time and
> ends up starting a few brush fires. Please keep in mind that opinion
> varies :)
>
Heh..if opinions didn't vary what fun would it be.
I've had the impression from several books, that if you were sinless
you couldn't get a real job, education etc. (I'm thinking of
one of Stackpole's short stories, from Into The shadows).
I also recall, a story, where cops beat up the sinless, simply because
the don't exist, and no one will care what they have to say.
I'm also guessing from comments in the lone star book, and
NAGto North America, that the Bill of Rights still exist. I remember
a reference to Canada having to allow gun sales, due to our constitution
they adopted. But if Sinless aren't considered citizens, they have
no rights.
---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:09:12 -0700
Lehlan Decker wrote:
/
/ Heh..if opinions didn't vary what fun would it be.

:)

/ I've had the impression from several books, that if you were sinless
/ you couldn't get a real job, education etc. (I'm thinking of
/ one of Stackpole's short stories, from Into The shadows).

Correct. Not legally anyway.

/ I also recall, a story, where cops beat up the sinless, simply because
/ the don't exist, and no one will care what they have to say.

That's a reflection of the views of society, not the law.

You could say that because black people are treated as second class
citizens in the US that they are second class citizens. But legally
they are equal citizens. This is a case were society still hasn't
caught up with the law.

/ I'm also guessing from comments in the lone star book, and
/ NAGto North America, that the Bill of Rights still exist. I remember
/ a reference to Canada having to allow gun sales, due to our constitution
/ they adopted. But if Sinless aren't considered citizens, they have
/ no rights.

There are laws that restrict a person from getting a job unless they
are a citizen. That doesn't mean that they don't have any rights.
That's kinda like a christian say that it's okay to kill
non-christians because that commandment (Thou shall not kill) is for
christians only.

If an illegal alien kills someone he still has a right to a fair trial.

If someone kills an illegal alien they can be tried for murder.

If the laws haven't drastically changed in 205x SR then the same will
hold true for the SINless.

Now, that doesn't mean that society won't respect their rights...

-David
--
"The best way to cheer yourself is to try to cheer somebody else up."
- Mark Twain
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:27:55 -0500
On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 12:09:12PM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> /
<SNIP>
> / I also recall, a story, where cops beat up the sinless, simply because
> / the don't exist, and no one will care what they have to say.
>
> That's a reflection of the views of society, not the law.
>
> You could say that because black people are treated as second class
> citizens in the US that they are second class citizens. But legally
> they are equal citizens. This is a case were society still hasn't
> caught up with the law.
>
> / I'm also guessing from comments in the lone star book, and
> / NAGto North America, that the Bill of Rights still exist. I remember
> / a reference to Canada having to allow gun sales, due to our constitution
> / they adopted. But if Sinless aren't considered citizens, they have
> / no rights.
>
> There are laws that restrict a person from getting a job unless they
> are a citizen. That doesn't mean that they don't have any rights.
> That's kinda like a christian say that it's okay to kill
> non-christians because that commandment (Thou shall not kill) is for
> christians only.
>
> If an illegal alien kills someone he still has a right to a fair trial.
>
> If someone kills an illegal alien they can be tried for murder.
>
> If the laws haven't drastically changed in 205x SR then the same will
> hold true for the SINless.
>
> Now, that doesn't mean that society won't respect their rights...
>
Excellent examples.
I'm guessing your right in the differences between law and society.
Then you add in the factors of corps, goblinization, and the split
of US, and you get SR.
Hmm...it must apply in SR..I remember examples of runners being tried
for crimes, and the fact that they get a SIN right away when their
captured, so all info can be tagged to it.
In my game, you need a SIN to do "anything" legally.
Having multiple sins with different levels of authentication is very
useful as well.
As far as laws not catching up with society, or visa versa, this
always seems to be the case. Because society deals with the problem,
and a law is decided down the line.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 5
From: Rabid Dwarf <jjstoltenber@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:53:35 -0500
On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Lehlan Decker wrote:

> <SNIP>
> > / I also recall, a story, where cops beat up the sinless, simply because
> > / the don't exist, and no one will care what they have to say.
> >
> > That's a reflection of the views of society, not the law.
> >
> > You could say that because black people are treated as second class
> > citizens in the US that they are second class citizens. But legally
> > they are equal citizens. This is a case were society still hasn't
> > caught up with the law.
> >
> > / I'm also guessing from comments in the lone star book, and
> > / NAGto North America, that the Bill of Rights still exist. I remember
> > / a reference to Canada having to allow gun sales, due to our constitution
> > / they adoptAed. But if Sinless aren't considered citizens, they have
> > / no rights.
> >
> > There are laws that restrict a person from getting a job unless they
> > are a citizen. That doesn't mean that they don't have any rights.
> > That's kinda like a christian say that it's okay to kill
> > non-christians because that commandment (Thou shall not kill) is for
> > christians only.
> >
> > If an illegal alien kills someone he still has a right to a fair trial.
> >
> > If someone kills an illegal alien they can be tried for murder.
> >
> > If the laws haven't drastically changed in 205x SR then the same will
> > hold true for the SINless.
> >
> > Now, that doesn't mean that society won't respect their rights...
> >
> Excellent examples.
> I'm guessing your right in the differences between law and society.
> Then you add in the factors of corps, goblinization, and the split
> of US, and you get SR.
> Hmm...it must apply in SR..I remember examples of runners being tried
> for crimes, and the fact that they get a SIN right away when their
> captured, so all info can be tagged to it.
> In my game, you need a SIN to do "anything" legally.
> Having multiple sins with different levels of authentication is very
> useful as well.
> As far as laws not catching up with society, or visa versa, this
> always seems to be the case. Because society deals with the problem,
> and a law is decided down the line.

I understand what you are saying but, I feel that you are trying to apply
our 20th C. laws to a society that is completely different than ours.

First, you have to consider the Corps. Within their boundaries they are
nearly autonomous(sp?) allowing them to dispense justice. Where do the
SINless fit in here? Do the corps even have to report when SINless runners
or people are killed on their property? And if so what can the gov't do
about it?

Second, we are not dealing with a gov't police force, but Lone Star. Which
is a Corp itself. IMC the gov't has some influence but the corps control
so many of the public officials that it is almost a joke. So in this case
the question comes up How many Sinless simply disappear and no one cares?

Lastly in a semi-violent society like SR it would seem only right if the
laws were changed to match. i.e. more capital crimes. Would not the
criminal system adapt, if not it would be so overrun that a simple traffic
ticket would take 2 years to clear up. And also, I agree that in the gov't
framework, SINless have rights. But how good of a representation would
they get in court? Probably a public defender, if that.

I know I rambled a bit, I tend to do that sometimes. I'll try to be better
but thats my 2 pennies.

Jon Stoltenberg
aka. Rabid Dwarf
Message no. 6
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:55:58 +0100
Mr. Stoltenberg, the Rabid Dwarf, wrote about (snipped) how, while the police
might have laws protecting the SINless, there's no police, only Lone Star,
and the big eight with their extraterritoriality.

(As a side note.. it's *only* the big eight that has extraterritorial rights,
right? That's what makes them the big eight? Just making sure here).

Good points, all of them, despite rambling. Corporations are very fond of
their cash. A SINless isn't paying his way in the corporation, he isn't
working there, and just why should they go to a lengthy and expensive process
of bringing him to a fair tral if they think he's done something wrong? He
won't be missed by anyone credible, after all.... they might give him a
cursory trial, but would be just as likely to give him a strong mind probe
(Or the drug equivalent) to find out if he was up to something spooky, and
either kick him out, lock him down, or shut him down depending on the result.
(Or hire him, if he was good enough at the spooky stuff - with appropriate
failsafes, also known as Kink Bombs.).
Message no. 7
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:57:17 +1000
> a reference to Canada having to allow gun sales, due to our constitution
> they adopted. But if Sinless aren't considered citizens, they have
> no rights.

So... I go to America, and the cops are allowed to beat me up? I'm not a
US citizen, they can do whatever they like to me...

... I don't think so, Tim.

Lady Jestyr

- I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 8
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:23:28 PST
>So... I go to America, and the cops are allowed to beat me up? I'm not
a
>US citizen, they can do whatever they like to me...
>
>... I don't think so, Tim.

Only if your from canada. They usually give Australians a warning
blow across the kneecaps first. :)



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Fall seven times, stand up eight."
-Japanese Proverb


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 9
From: Philippe Garneau <pgarneau@********.NET>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:32:56 -0500
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
À : SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date : lundi 2 mars 1998 17:26
Objet : Re: SINless and the Law


>> a reference to Canada having to allow gun sales, due to our constitution
>> they adopted. But if Sinless aren't considered citizens, they have
>> no rights.
>
>So... I go to America, and the cops are allowed to beat me up? I'm not a
>US citizen, they can do whatever they like to me...
>
>... I don't think so, Tim.
>
>Lady Jestyr
>
> - I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
>| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
>| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 10
From: Philippe Garneau <pgarneau@********.NET>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:41:55 -0500
>So... I go to America, and the cops are allowed to beat me up? I'm not a
>US citizen, they can do whatever they like to me...
>
>... I don't think so, Tim.
>
>Lady Jestyr


Sorry about the preceding message, that Send button is so akwardly placed in
Outlook Express...

Anyway, here's my comment:

my Lady , being an australian citizen (i guess), you're not SINless in the
US, you have ID (passport with visa, if it's required). A SINless person
would rather be a illegal alien with no passport and no way to prove his
identity, or likewise, someone with no identity whatsoever (no birth
certificate, no credit card, no social security, etc.). So with an ID (even
a foreign one), you exist, someone without an ID don't exist until the
Police assign you one. In Shadowrun, this can take a while! :-)

I suspect i'm repeating something that were already posted, but i didn't
spot this thread before this message, so i'm sorry if i wasted your time
(and mine).

Filou
Message no. 11
From: MgkellyMJ7 <MgkellyMJ7@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:13:09 EST
In a message dated 98-03-02 18:10:34 EST, you write:

<< So... I go to America, and the cops are allowed to beat me up? I'm not a
US citizen, they can do whatever they like to me...
>>

they're not really allowed to Lady J, but that doesn't really stop them....
;]

Mgkelly
Message no. 12
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:44:43 GMT
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:57:17 +1000, Lady Jestyr wrote:

> > a reference to Canada having to allow gun sales, due to our constitution
> > they adopted. But if Sinless aren't considered citizens, they have
> > no rights.
>
> So... I go to America, and the cops are allowed to beat me up? I'm not a
> US citizen, they can do whatever they like to me...

But you still hold citizenship *someplace*. The Aussie government would be
all over America if such a thing transpired based on the fact that "some
cops beat you up because they thought you had no rights."

In Shadowrun, the SINless aren't citizens of *any* government or corp. The
only people standing up for you would be (meta)human rights activists (or
some such). Depending on your campaign, their support of your rights could
vary considerably.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:13:42 +1000
Phillipe Garneau writes:
>>So... I go to America, and the cops are allowed to beat me up? I'm not a
>>US citizen, they can do whatever they like to me...
>>
>>... I don't think so, Tim.
>>
>>Lady Jestyr
>
>my Lady , being an australian citizen (i guess), you're not SINless in the
>US, you have ID (passport with visa, if it's required). A SINless person
>would rather be a illegal alien with no passport and no way to prove his
>identity, or likewise, someone with no identity whatsoever (no birth
>certificate, no credit card, no social security, etc.). So with an ID (even
>a foreign one), you exist, someone without an ID don't exist until the
>Police assign you one. In Shadowrun, this can take a while! :-)


So if you join the Mexicans and sneak across the border, and become an
illegal alien, the cops are allowed to beat you up?

To quote the Jestyr's own quote... "I don't think so, Tim."

Fact: Just because you're SINless doesn't mean that, in the UCAS, you don't
have rights. You might have restrictions on your activities (ie, you can't
open a bank account 'cause you can't prove who you are), but you still have
the basic fundamental rights.

Fact: On corp turf, or any other country, different rules apply. Your
mileage may vary, and all that jazz.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 14
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:25:02 GMT
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:13:42 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Fact: Just because you're SINless doesn't mean that, in the UCAS, you don't
> have rights. You might have restrictions on your activities (ie, you can't
> open a bank account 'cause you can't prove who you are), but you still have
> the basic fundamental rights.

These basic fundamental (ie: "human") rights aren't necessarily honoured by
every country on the globe. It might not be "right", but it happens. With
regards to these rights in UCAS territory, I still need sources for this
info...

And if you truly do not have a SIN, no one can protect your "human rights"
until you are assigned a SIN, processed into the "system", and assigned a
council to defend your rights. I doubt you could enter a Shadowrun-era
courtroom (on either side of the law) without one-- how would you do the
paperwork? :)

> Fact: On corp turf, or any other country, different rules apply. Your
> mileage may vary, and all that jazz.

Hmmm... I wonder of corps have "Constitutions" and "Books of Law" that
the
everyday citizen can access. Be kinda helpful on a run to know how you'll
be treated if you get caught doing something illegal on corporate
territory.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:50:30 -0700
James Lindsay wrote:
/
/ And if you truly do not have a SIN, no one can protect your "human rights"
/ until you are assigned a SIN, processed into the "system", and assigned a
/ council to defend your rights. I doubt you could enter a Shadowrun-era
/ courtroom (on either side of the law) without one-- how would you do the
/ paperwork? :)

Where there's a lawyer, there's a way :)

-David
--
"The best way to cheer yourself is to try to cheer somebody else up."
- Mark Twain
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 16
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:53:35 PST
>Fact: Just because you're SINless doesn't mean that, in the UCAS, you
don't
>have rights. You might have restrictions on your activities (ie, you
can't
>open a bank account 'cause you can't prove who you are), but you still
have
>the basic fundamental rights.

It all looks really good on paper, but this is the dark, gritty world
of Shadowrun. Orks and Trolls are supposed have basic fundamental
rights, too. Do they get them? "I don't think so, Tim."
What about Ghouls? again, negative. What a happy, shiney place
Shadowrun would be if the cops were all nice and cheery to us as we
failed to produce a SIN. Like it's been said, Shadowrun reflects(even
if it is a funhouse mirror reflection) our modern world. Fail to
produce a drivers license when you get pulled over, consider yourself
lucky if they let you go w/o a ticket(which is rare, but happens). Fail
to produce a passport and visa, and see how quickly you are taking to
immegration office.
Remember, "In theory" and "In practice" are two different things.

>
>Fact: On corp turf, or any other country, different rules apply. Your
>mileage may vary, and all that jazz.

Which is, if I'm not mistaken, the note this whole thread started off
on.



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Fall seven times, stand up eight."
-Japanese Proverb


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:00:49 -0700
The Vagabond wrote:
/
/ >Fact: Just because you're SINless doesn't mean that, in the UCAS, you
/ don't
/ >have rights. You might have restrictions on your activities (ie, you
/ can't
/ >open a bank account 'cause you can't prove who you are), but you still
/ have
/ >the basic fundamental rights.
/
/ It all looks really good on paper, but this is the dark, gritty world
/ of Shadowrun. Orks and Trolls are supposed have basic fundamental
/ rights, too. Do they get them? "I don't think so, Tim."

Let's try to seperate the two arguments that are going on, cuz they're
getting mixed together.

Do the SINless have rights?

IMHO, yes. Currently in the US illegal aliens have rights and are
protected by the law. With the merger of the US and Canada into the
UCAS I don't see that changing.

Are the SINless treated accordingly?

Probably not. SR is a dark world with a lot of poverty and anger.

-David
--
"The best way to cheer yourself is to try to cheer somebody else up."
- Mark Twain
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 18
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:24:32 -0500
On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 07:57:17AM +1000, Lady Jestyr wrote:
> > a reference to Canada having to allow gun sales, due to our constitution
> > they adopted. But if Sinless aren't considered citizens, they have
> > no rights.
>
> So... I go to America, and the cops are allowed to beat me up? I'm not a
> US citizen, they can do whatever they like to me...
>
> ... I don't think so, Tim.
>
I think that was my original quote. Anyway...from the examples I remember,
they can't do whatever they like, but far fewer people will care if
these things happen, and your recourse is far less. As I mentioned in
another post, I think the 1st thing that happens is LS assigns you a SIN.
Sinless still have the basic rights, but it seems like keeping them
from being infringed upon would be much harder.
(And if your Sinless in a country, where there isn't a Bill of Rights
or the equivanlent, it may be a different story).

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:37:47 +0100
David Buehrer said on 6:50/ 3 Mar 98...

> Where there's a lawyer, there's a way :)

But how are you going to pay that lawyer if you're SINless? :) Can't
transfer money from your cred account, because either you don't have one
or it's an illegale one; and i doubt a respectable lawyer (is there such a
thing? :) would want to receive money that needs to be laundered before
being usable.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Now I've got to go away.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 20
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:54:37 -0700
Gurth wrote:
/
/ David Buehrer said on 6:50/ 3 Mar 98...
/
/ > Where there's a lawyer, there's a way :)
/
/ But how are you going to pay that lawyer if you're SINless? :) Can't
/ transfer money from your cred account, because either you don't have one
/ or it's an illegale one; and i doubt a respectable lawyer (is there such a
/ thing? :) would want to receive money that needs to be laundered before
/ being usable.

Believe it or not there are some groups that provide lawyers free of
charge in RL. In SR I'm sure there are a number of groups that might
provide legal aid to a SINless person for various reasons (the most
likely being PR for their cause, whatever that might be).

And, if a SINless person was beaten by Lone Star and survived to tell
the tale there would be lawyers crawling out of the woodwork to sue
Lone Star on the person's behalf. Even worse would be if the person
was killed and word got out. The persons family would be inundated
with lawyers. At least in the UCAS or the CAS, IMO.

Respectable lawers? <grin> Yeah, right.

If you have money it doesn't matter how illegal it is, you can find a
lawyer.

-David
--
"The best way to cheer yourself is to try to cheer somebody else up."
- Mark Twain
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 21
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:51:43 -0500
At 09:37 PM 3/3/98 +0100, you wrote:
>David Buehrer said on 6:50/ 3 Mar 98...
>
>> Where there's a lawyer, there's a way :)
>
>But how are you going to pay that lawyer if you're SINless? :) Can't
>transfer money from your cred account, because either you don't have one
>or it's an illegale one; and i doubt a respectable lawyer (is there such a
>thing? :) would want to receive money that needs to be laundered before
>being usable.
>
>
Gurth, don't you know that American/Corporate greed knows no bounds? ;-)

Sure, a criminal defense lawyer would not likely defend the SINless unless
ordered to by the court/controlling authority. But what about a civil
suit? *That* sort of lawyer is only interested in extracting money from
the defendant. And the lawyer gets a huge cut from what ever damages are
awarded.

So in *that* case, yes, a lawyer would take on a SINless client.

Plus, don't you all remember in nearly all the location books, where the
population stats are listed, numbers for legal aid for orks, trolls, and so
on? Like 1-800-HELP-ORK or something. The 2059 equivalent of the modern
day American ACLU. These organizations would almost certainly help the
SINless.

Erik J.

Kill 'em all, let the archeologists sort it out!
Message no. 22
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:59:04 GMT
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:54:37 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:

> Gurth wrote:
> /
> / David Buehrer said on 6:50/ 3 Mar 98...
> /
> / > Where there's a lawyer, there's a way :)
> /
> / But how are you going to pay that lawyer if you're SINless? :) Can't
> / transfer money from your cred account, because either you don't have one
> / or it's an illegale one; and i doubt a respectable lawyer (is there such a
> / thing? :) would want to receive money that needs to be laundered before
> / being usable.
>
> Believe it or not there are some groups that provide lawyers free of
> charge in RL. In SR I'm sure there are a number of groups that might
> provide legal aid to a SINless person for various reasons (the most
> likely being PR for their cause, whatever that might be).
>
> And, if a SINless person was beaten by Lone Star and survived to tell
> the tale there would be lawyers crawling out of the woodwork to sue
> Lone Star on the person's behalf. Even worse would be if the person
> was killed and word got out. The persons family would be inundated
> with lawyers. At least in the UCAS or the CAS, IMO.
>
> Respectable lawers? <grin> Yeah, right.
>
> If you have money it doesn't matter how illegal it is, you can find a
> lawyer.

But like I said in another post, if the courts were to award a SINless
individual money in such a suit, the only way that person could legally
receive payment would be to possess a legal credstick account-- available
only with a valid SIN. Courts don't like to break their own laws by
ordering payment via black market currency.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 23
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:56:05 GMT
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:51:43 -0500, Erik Jameson wrote:

> At 09:37 PM 3/3/98 +0100, you wrote:
> >David Buehrer said on 6:50/ 3 Mar 98...
> >
> >> Where there's a lawyer, there's a way :)
> >
> >But how are you going to pay that lawyer if you're SINless? :) Can't
> >transfer money from your cred account, because either you don't have one
> >or it's an illegale one; and i doubt a respectable lawyer (is there such a
> >thing? :) would want to receive money that needs to be laundered before
> >being usable.
> >
> Gurth, don't you know that American/Corporate greed knows no bounds? ;-)
>
> Sure, a criminal defense lawyer would not likely defend the SINless unless
> ordered to by the court/controlling authority. But what about a civil
> suit? *That* sort of lawyer is only interested in extracting money from
> the defendant. And the lawyer gets a huge cut from what ever damages are
> awarded.
>
> So in *that* case, yes, a lawyer would take on a SINless client.

Yes, but if the SINless individual somehow wins his or her case, how does
s/he go about receiving payment-- legally? That person would then need a
SIN so that s/he could have the money transferred into a legal credstick
account. Likewise, any lawyer that willfully engaged in illegal activity
(accepting laundered or otherwise "illegal" forms of payment) would be
disbarred, pronto.

IIRC, being SINless isn't an "optional lifestyle" that the UCAS government
approves of. They want their citizens to have SINs so that they can keep
track of them (just like having the appropriate citizenship papers today).
If you didn't, they'd insist that you get one before "bringing you into the
fold". IOW, you get a SIN, or else... (although I'm not sure what "or
else" would consist of).

> Plus, don't you all remember in nearly all the location books, where the
> population stats are listed, numbers for legal aid for orks, trolls, and so
> on? Like 1-800-HELP-ORK or something. The 2059 equivalent of the modern
> day American ACLU. These organizations would almost certainly help the
> SINless.

Being an orc or troll *with* a SIN and being a (meta)human without one are
two different things. This is approximately the same difference as being a
black individual in the southern USA (circa 1960) and being an illegal
alien from Mexico.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 24
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:17:29 +0000
In article <199803032054.NAA07786@******.carl.org>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> writes
>And, if a SINless person was beaten by Lone Star and survived to tell
>the tale there would be lawyers crawling out of the woodwork to sue
>Lone Star on the person's behalf. Even worse would be if the person
>was killed and word got out. The persons family would be inundated
>with lawyers. At least in the UCAS or the CAS, IMO.

Because the lawyers get 25%-50% of the award. Contingency fees, huh?

When the potential payoff's five figures, you'll find a lawyer willing
to take a case on contingency fees.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 25
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:05:48 -0500
On 3 Mar 98 at 21:37, Gurth wrote:

> David Buehrer said on 6:50/ 3 Mar 98...
>
> > Where there's a lawyer, there's a way :)
>
> But how are you going to pay that lawyer if you're SINless? :) Can't
> transfer money from your cred account, because either you don't have
> one or it's an illegale one; and i doubt a respectable lawyer (is
> there such a thing? :) would want to receive money that needs to be
> laundered before being usable.

Believe it or not, there are some "charitable" lawyers that do
pro-bono work for illegals and homeless people today. Not many
though. :)

I've also heard of lawyers that have been convicted of crimes
themselves (usually white collar stuff like tax-evasion) that as
punishment, had to do pro-bono community service type lawyering.
Again, not very common. But it does happen.

And let's not forget groups like the ACLU that like to stir up
trouble whenever they can, if sometimes for no other reason than to
justify their existance.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes you're
- drekhead@***.net - | the pigeon, and sometimes
*-GridSec : Enforcer Division-* | you're the statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" | -Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
Message no. 26
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:49:21 -0500
> Believe it or not, there are some "charitable" lawyers that do
> pro-bono work for illegals and homeless people today. Not many
> though. :)

A number of law firms also require pro bono work or have voluntary
pro-bono programs. Further, law school students do quite a bit of
charitable work, and most major law schools run free legal clinics staffed
by students.
> I've also heard of lawyers that have been convicted of crimes
> themselves (usually white collar stuff like tax-evasion) that as
> punishment, had to do pro-bono community service type lawyering.
> Again, not very common. But it does happen.

Those ar just the ones I'd go to for some free advice on my taxes...:)

> And let's not forget groups like the ACLU that like to stir up
> trouble whenever they can, if sometimes for no other reason than to
> justify their existance.

Now, to bring this back on topic...one would think that there would be a
significant population that would reject the notion of SINs altogether,
sorta like the militia-survivalist-tax protester movement today, except on
a larger scale. The entire SR world seems geared more towards libertarian
politics- the whole idea of extraterritorial corporations seems like an
anarcho-capitalist's dream- yet SINs run counter to that trend. Further, what of the
citizens of a state which does not issue SINs or
their equivalent? There seem to be a number of unstable regions in the SR
world, Africa, SE Asia and parts of Europe come to mind, which I doubt
would be able to support the infrastructure necessary for the massive
undertaking of assigning and monitoring the SINs of an entire population.
Hell, I don't even think the UCAS government could regulate such an
undertaking. Just look at the inefficieny of the IRS or Post Office, let
alone social services like AFDC today, and you can see the numerous
problems that would quickly arrise. Couple this with the drastic
splintering of the former USA, the crash of '29 and changing definitions
of nationality with corporate-states, metahumanity, magic and the matrix
and it is doubtful that the UCAs could conduct an effective census to
figure out who is a citizen and who is not, and one can forget about
assigning each citizen an identification number which is tied to his or
her police record, driver's liscence, bank account, etc.
Thus, while SINs may exist in the SR world, one should expect them to be
frought with the bureaucratic errors and red-tape which plague any large
government program. What makes anyone think that all the different
organizations which manage the information provided on a SIN are in
constant and punctual communications with one another, or that they use
the same data format. (The DMV uses form 113567a4-tt56 while the DSS uses
the new 113567a4-tt57 form which is incompatible with the DMV form, so
when you try to uses your SIN for identification at the welfare office,
you come up as deceased in 2043. And, if you're lucky enough to be
employed with a mega-corp, just hope that diplomatic relations between
your employer and country of citizenship don't break down, because you'd
probably have to go through the state Department to get your paycheck.) At
best, then, the SIN system should be one consistently plagued with minor
errors that greatly inconvienence everyone's lives.
Message no. 27
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:18:21 +1000
James Lindsay writes:
>> Sure, a criminal defense lawyer would not likely defend the SINless
unless
>> ordered to by the court/controlling authority. But what about a civil
>> suit? *That* sort of lawyer is only interested in extracting money from
>> the defendant. And the lawyer gets a huge cut from what ever damages are
>> awarded.
>>
>> So in *that* case, yes, a lawyer would take on a SINless client.
>
>Yes, but if the SINless individual somehow wins his or her case, how does
>s/he go about receiving payment-- legally? That person would then need a
>SIN so that s/he could have the money transferred into a legal credstick
>account. Likewise, any lawyer that willfully engaged in illegal activity
>(accepting laundered or otherwise "illegal" forms of payment) would be
>disbarred, pronto.


They could always ask for cash in hand or a certified credstick. If you are
required to pay someone, the method of payment can be specified by the
person you are required to pay. That's why, for example, garages can say
"Sorry, we don't take cheques", and a place without an EFTPOS terminal won't
accept your bankcard.

>IIRC, being SINless isn't an "optional lifestyle" that the UCAS government
>approves of. They want their citizens to have SINs so that they can keep
>track of them (just like having the appropriate citizenship papers today).
>If you didn't, they'd insist that you get one before "bringing you into the
>fold". IOW, you get a SIN, or else... (although I'm not sure what "or
>else" would consist of).


It's NOT legal to not have a SIN. If you don't not have a SIN, or something
similar (like a visa), you are living illegally in the UCAS. If you are
caught, you will be assigned one, and possibly fined depending on
circumstances, or deported. But you still have rights prior to being issued
that SIN.

>> Plus, don't you all remember in nearly all the location books, where the
>> population stats are listed, numbers for legal aid for orks, trolls, and
so
>> on? Like 1-800-HELP-ORK or something. The 2059 equivalent of the modern
>> day American ACLU. These organizations would almost certainly help the
>> SINless.
>
>Being an orc or troll *with* a SIN and being a (meta)human without one are
>two different things. This is approximately the same difference as being a
>black individual in the southern USA (circa 1960) and being an illegal
>alien from Mexico.


You still can't beat up the wetback from Mexico...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 28
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:20:05 +1000
James Lindsay writes:
>
>But like I said in another post, if the courts were to award a SINless
>individual money in such a suit, the only way that person could legally
>receive payment would be to possess a legal credstick account-- available
>only with a valid SIN. Courts don't like to break their own laws by
>ordering payment via black market currency.


Cash, and certified credsticks, are legal currency.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 29
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:33:33 -0700
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>


>>IIRC, being SINless isn't an "optional lifestyle" that the UCAS
government
>>approves of. They want their citizens to have SINs so that they can keep
>>track of them (just like having the appropriate citizenship papers today).
>>If you didn't, they'd insist that you get one before "bringing you into the
>>fold". IOW, you get a SIN, or else... (although I'm not sure what "or
>>else" would consist of).
>
>
>It's NOT legal to not have a SIN. If you don't not have a SIN, or something
>similar (like a visa), you are living illegally in the UCAS. If you are
>caught, you will be assigned one, and possibly fined depending on
>circumstances, or deported. But you still have rights prior to being issued
>that SIN.
>


This is something I'm not sure I understand, maybe I read wrong but in PoaD
didn't the big D' will stipulate that on such and such a date the first 5000
people at the whitehouse doors would get a free SIN?

So... are they required or not? And if they're required, do you have to pay
for them or not?

Karl
Message no. 30
From: Nexx <Nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:24:24 -0600
> This is something I'm not sure I understand, maybe I read wrong but in
PoaD
> didn't the big D' will stipulate that on such and such a date the first
5000
> people at the whitehouse doors would get a free SIN?
It was at some Seattle office, but this raises something that's been
getting to me.
In one of the books (I believe it was Lone Star, but I haven't read
through them in quite a while) it said that when the SINless were arrested,
they were issued a temporary SIN so they could easily be put through the
system. While my knowledge of Shadowrun isn't that vast, I would think
that if having a SIN was going to be so enforced, Dunkelzahn wouldn't have
felt it necessary to arbitrarily give people SIN's (they could have gone up
and requested them) nor would there be as many SINless (after all, not all
of the SINless are vile shadowrunners or twisted gangers <g>). That would
lead me to believe that SIN's cost Money, so much that it deserves a
capital letter. Why would it cost so much to be a legal citizen?
My current theory is to make it a crime to be poor. While someone pointed
out that the politics of shadowrunners seem to be very libertarian (by and
large), the politics of the rest of the world seem to be very
conservative... and quite frankly, I think it is Rush Limbaugh's wet dreams
to make it a crime to be poor. When everyone who can't afford a SIN is
technically a criminal, it gives you reason to ignore some of their rights.
Illegal search and seizure, harassment, all of which you have to be glad
is all they're doing, simply because they _could_ arrest you for not having
a SIN... and that probably scares some poor ork more than occasionally
getting yelled at by cops, simply because if they're in jail, they can't
provide for their families (or continue to make enough money that they can
pay off their cyberware)

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
aka Ellegon
ICQ 8108186
************
Why do they call this consensual reality? When did I sign a consent form?
I want the fuck off!
-Nexx Many-Scars
*************
"...and we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our
sacred honor. And we _shall_ keep the flame burning."
-The original Ellegon
***********
Am Moireach Mor!
Message no. 31
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law -Reply
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:19:14 -0500
>Cash, and certified credsticks, are legal currency.

Yes, but all income must be reported and crossfiled with a (possibly
fake) SIN so that taxes can be handled legally. You don't want to let
people avoid their fair share of taxes, do you? It is probably legal to pay
someone with a certified credstick if THEY have a SIN, but certified
credstick to certified credstick transfers (or just handing it to the guy)
are problem technically illegal (impossible to enforce, of course).

The above is IMHO.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 32
From: Bruce Ford <shaman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:05:17 -0700
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Karl Low wrote:

> This is something I'm not sure I understand, maybe I read wrong but in PoaD
> didn't the big D' will stipulate that on such and such a date the first 5000
> people at the whitehouse doors would get a free SIN?

The first 1000 people would be bequeathed a SIN if at the DFMR at such a
time on such a date.

> So... are they required or not? And if they're required, do you have to pay
> for them or not?

In theory, it is required. In practice, it is rarely enforced. It is
usually reserved for people within the corporate or government structure
that are desired to be kept within or associated to said structures, for
the productive members of society.

On top of it, in order to issue one, records must be established and few,
if any censors travel into any district that has a low security rating, so
the unwashed masses rarely ever get recorded beyond a guestimation of
their numbers.

Unless you are being charged with a crime, where you are issued a SIN, it
is my belief that you have to pay a fee and most people that don't have a
SIN either can't afford it or don't care to have it as they have found
other means to scratch out a living and may not have an education to
really understand the benefits of SIN beyond the bias that it is a
distinction between the haves and the have nots.

You can also get into the whole social stratification and bias toward the
lower classes but I think at least for myself, it's simplest to sum up
with my beginning statement: In theory, it is required to have a SIN but
in practice it is not enforced unless it can be easily done so.

-----
Bruce Ford aka Rendar, the educated Ork Street Samurai.

"The Shadows are your friend. Intelligence, your ally. Negotiation, your
companion. Violence, your lover...but frag, chaos is your wife!"
-Summary of the run's results to a Johnson.

E-mail: shaman@*******.com ICQ#: 4804267
Message no. 33
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:10:26 +1000
Karl Low writes:

>>It's NOT legal to not have a SIN. If you don't not have a SIN, or
something
>>similar (like a visa), you are living illegally in the UCAS. If you are
>>caught, you will be assigned one, and possibly fined depending on
>>circumstances, or deported. But you still have rights prior to being
issued
>>that SIN.
>This is something I'm not sure I understand, maybe I read wrong but in PoaD
>didn't the big D' will stipulate that on such and such a date the first
5000
>people at the whitehouse doors would get a free SIN?
>
>So... are they required or not? And if they're required, do you have to pay
>for them or not?


If they work like the Social Security Number: Yes, they are required. No, if
you qualify for citizenship, you wouldn't have to pay for them (you'd get it
allocated at birth, just after (or before?) the birth certificate is filed).

For those who don't have them allocated like that, it is implied that they
have to be purchased (I remember a fiction piece somewhere about an Ork
woman saving up to buy her kid a SIN so he could get a job at a factory).
Presumably this purchase is to represent cost of processing for people who
couldn't be bothered to do it right.

The Big D's statement could also have meant that there would be an limited
amnesty for illegal immigrants (who also wouldn't have SINs).

It's also possible to get a SIN by being arrested, where they allocate it to
you. The judge might add the cost on to your fine, if you get convicted, but
maybe not. However, this gives you a criminal record.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 34
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:59:41 +0100
Robert Watkins said on 17:10/ 5 Mar 98...

> It's also possible to get a SIN by being arrested, where they allocate it to
> you. The judge might add the cost on to your fine, if you get convicted, but
> maybe not. However, this gives you a criminal record.

If the judge doesn't add the SIN's cost (asusming there is one) to your
fine, this could be the best way to get one. All you need to do is commit
something minor, like pissing against a building just when there happen to
be some cops walking by (if it doesn't work first time, try again until
they take you in), and you have a SIN. Sure, you've got a criminal record
but it's not as if you've done anything serious.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I want to see the ground give way, I want to watch it all go down.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 35
From: Da Twink Daddy <twinkie@*******.DMSC.K12.AR.US>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:46:39 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>


>>IIRC, being SINless isn't an "optional lifestyle" that the UCAS
government
>>approves of. They want their citizens to have SINs so that they can keep
>>track of them (just like having the appropriate citizenship papers today).
>>If you didn't, they'd insist that you get one before "bringing you into
the
>>fold". IOW, you get a SIN, or else... (although I'm not sure what "or
>>else" would consist of).
>
>
>It's NOT legal to not have a SIN. If you don't not have a SIN, or something
>similar (like a visa), you are living illegally in the UCAS. If you are
>caught, you will be assigned one, and possibly fined depending on
>circumstances, or deported. But you still have rights prior to being issued
>that SIN.


I believe SIN should be likened to the Social Security numbers in the US
today. You can't legaly transfer any money (except cash) without a SSN
(can't get a bank account or have a credit rating or be part of a government
program) or get any government jobs/benefits (can't go to public school [or
college IIRC], get welfare or work at the post office [or anywhere]). It is
pretty much that if the government wants to know you are doing it (banking,
working, learning) you can't to it without a SSN.

However, just _living_ in the US without a SSN _is_ legal. Just as long as
you don't do any of the above mentioned things. Getting a SSN is simple.
They have a form you fill out, all you have to do is prove you are a natural
born citizen. There is a processing fee attched to this, IIRC. Or, is you
are not a natural born citizen you wait 4 (or is it 7) years living in the
US, take a naturalization test (small fee) and you are assigned a SSN and
become a citizen, there are also alot of "premits" in between citizen and
not. Like a work visa, or (probably) a schooling visa, etc. You don't
actually have a SSN yet but you are on a database.

Now, we skip about 60+ years into the future.

Corps have thier own compounds where only thier laws count, and technology
has been advanced.

If you had a social security number or a visa you were given a SIN, most
often is was your old number + a few digits to leave room for a rapidly
expanding population. This SIN (the actuall information or links to more
secure dataspaces) is stored in the government database of your citizenship
(or the extraterritoral corp whose area in which you live). Anytime you do
almost _anything_ (anything requiring a credit/background check including:
jobs, school, banking) you fill out a form with your SIN it is checked for
any relevent information (if the corp/government asking you for in isn't on
very good terms with the one that actually has it, you could have problems
because they will be denied access to information they want) any
transactions or inquirys to the SIN are stored "in" it. This allow "the
Man"
to track you and everyone you associate with. Data is never actually removed
from a SIN, even today when a court orders something "striken" from the
record it is actually replaced with a thing that says "Data Striken" and if
they have the proper access channel they can get around that. (That doesn't
mean the data _can't_ be erased just, the governement won't to it
themselves.)

If you don't have a SIN, getting one is just as simple as it is today, prove
you were born and you are who you say you are (fill out some forms, or take
a test or whatever, all with a small fee attached) and you will be assigned
a SIN. If you are arrested, well that all depends on the government you are
arrested under. LS working on UCAS property will go by UCAS laws. If can
prove who you are, you are charged a processing fee and given a SIN, if you
can't you are deported to (as near as they can tell) your country of origin.

Technically, it could be possible for Joe UCAS to inadvertantly (or on
purpose) get two SINs however, the process of porving that you are yourself
is fairly though and so it is easier to get a decker to plant the
information. (Espcially since everything is on the Matrix now.) Also, a lot
of information in on a SIN that isn't on a SSN now. Not only to you have a
combo Birth certificate/Diver's Licence on it but, if you have ever been
fingerprinted they are on there, of course a picture is on there, and many
corps (and possibly governements, if you believ the conspiacy theories out
there) would keep DNA/Medical records on there, and schooling records, cedit
records, atleic records, travel logs, anythign that you think is keep up
with or stored _anywhere_ now (1998) will be acceable through a SIN (in SR).

I think that's all I was going to say but when ever I type this much, I get
a brain cramp.

>>> Plus, don't you all remember in nearly all the location books, where the
>>> population stats are listed, numbers for legal aid for orks, trolls, and
>so
>>> on? Like 1-800-HELP-ORK or something. The 2059 equivalent of the
modern
>>> day American ACLU. These organizations would almost certainly help the
>>> SINless.
>>
>>Being an orc or troll *with* a SIN and being a (meta)human without one are
>>two different things. This is approximately the same difference as being
a
>>black individual in the southern USA (circa 1960) and being an illegal
>>alien from Mexico.
>
>
>You still can't beat up the wetback from Mexico...


If you are in any way disadvantaged you can bet that thier is some
organization that _will_ pay some or all court fees and lawyer fees
accociated with your trail. That is whether you have a SSN or not (present
day). In the US, it _is_ illegal to deprive _anyone_ even not-citizens and
illegal aliens of the "unalienable" rights. And you will be procesuted for
it.

Da Twink Daddy ( twinkie@*******.dmsc.k12.ar.us gilmeth@*********.com
UIN:514984)
----------
"Don't hit me!! I'm in the Twilight Zone!!!" --Zippy the Pinhead
----------
http://vancove.dmsc.k12.ar.us/~twinkie/
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
Message no. 36
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:45:10 -0500
Here is a possible way to interpret SINlessness, use it if you wish.

In the Shadowrun Era, when you are issued a Birth Certificate, you are
issued a SIN. There is a small fee for this, about 50 yen. If you don't
have the money handy, either you 1) owe the hospital or whatever 2)
get booted out onto the street to raise your degenerate progeny as a
SINless nothing, or 3) Get sentenced to community service to work off
your 50 yen debt. If you choose to ignore the whole above hassle, you
have your children in your squalid hovel, no birth certificate is ever
issued, no SIN exists for that child...

...until the point where said urchin gets caught shoplifting a loaf of
bread, at which point the legal system has to acknowledge him
somewhat. A SIN is generated for him, and 50 yen is added to his fine,
to be worked off in the poorhouse (can I have some gruel, please?)

If someone is caught with expensive and illegal weaponry and
cyberware, suspected of serious crimes against civilized society, AND
doesn't even have a SIN, 15 years of hard labor is sufficient to
compensate society for the administrative costs of assigning you your
SIN.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 37
From: Nexx <Nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: SINless and the Law
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:21:57 -0600
> If someone is caught with expensive and illegal weaponry and
> cyberware, suspected of serious crimes against civilized society, AND
> doesn't even have a SIN, 15 years of hard labor is sufficient to
> compensate society for the administrative costs of assigning you your
> SIN.

Of course, don't get caught breaking corp law if you're SINless. In corp
jurisdiction, there is not such thing as "civil rights", except at the
discretion of the judge (or whatever)

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
aka Ellegon
ICQ 8108186
************
Why do they call this consensual reality? When did I sign a consent form?
I want the fuck off!
-Nexx Many-Scars
*************
"...and we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our
sacred honor. And we _shall_ keep the flame burning."
-The original Ellegon
***********
Am Moireach Mor!

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