Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: eryk@*********.net (Adam)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:27:12 +0100
Bonjour!

Official SR sourcbooks don't offer any real description of SINless
community.
I wonder how it looks in yours games?

How many SINless are there in Seattle?
Where do they usually work?
Do they have a political representation (marksists for example)?
How do they bypass certain restrictions in theirs daily lives (like
travelling and accommodation)?
Can anyone give a description of a typical SINless (not squatter) in their
game?

Any comments?


Greets!
- Adam
Message no. 2
From: dv8@*************.com (Dennis)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:04:08 +0100
> Any comments?

This question was discussed on the Dumpshock Forums not too long ago.
For those that can stomach the signal to noise ratio:
http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic%09

Dennis
http://www.wiredreflexes.com
Message no. 3
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:41:04 +0100
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:27:12 +0100, Adam <eryk@*********.net> wrote:

> Bonjour!
>
> Official SR sourcbooks don't offer any real description of SINless
> community.
> I wonder how it looks in yours games?

Currently, my players enjoy the benefits of an Ares-SIN, 2/3 since birth.

> How many SINless are there in Seattle?

Hm, hard to make a census. I think that the SINless add 15% of the
SINed-population, with some overlaps and "blind" identities, to account
for the forged SINs.

> Where do they usually work?

Heh, DidS2 had a bit on that: Usually, SINless do all the work where it is
too expensive to let drones do the job, but nobody not out of their minds
will work. Except SINless who take all the jobs they can.
As a rule of thump: Nothing that requires tax payment or an education is a
SINless job.

> Do they have a political representation (marksists for example)?

In the UCAs they do. They are basically 2nd class citizens without too
much civil rights. Check the SR Core book on that.
In the ADL it is an offense to have no SIN.
Don't know about other countries.

> How do they bypass certain restrictions in theirs daily lives (like
> travelling and accommodation)?

The first with forged SINs or via smugglers. Both costs money. They can
try to use other assets, like a car or something. The latter is solved via
squatting or a forged SIN, too.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster From Hell (Der Meister) and General Idiot

"Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice."
- Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC (Ret.), regarding combat handgun training
Message no. 4
From: dv8@*************.com (Dennis)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:47:36 +0100
> In the ADL it is an offense to have no SIN.
> Don't know about other countries.

I can't see how it would be an offense to have had slacker or
unfortunate parents. So in my games it's no illegal to be SINless unless
you're breaking the law by directly profiting from taxpayer's money.
However, it is illegal to not carry valid identification, though.

Dennis
http://www.wiredreflexes.com
Message no. 5
From: pf_mc@*****.ca (shadows within)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:47:44 -0500 (EST)
In William Gibson's "All Tomorrow's Parties", there's
a 'transient community' that's very much what I think
a SIN-less community would be like. A lot of the book
takes place in and around it, so you get a really good
feel for what it might be like.

Just my two nuyen.

====On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Message no. 6
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:57:22 +0100 (MET)
> > In the ADL it is an offense to have no SIN.
> > Don't know about other countries.
>
> I can't see how it would be an offense to have had slacker or
> unfortunate parents.

Never been to Germany, eh? Even today, every Citizen at the age of 16+ has
to have proper ID.
And every ADL citizen (or visitor to that country) gets a SIN (visitors get
a temporary one).
Everybody who doesn't have one is breaking the law. Although there are only
monetary consequences, unless you repeat the offense.

> So in my games it's no illegal to be SINless unless
> you're breaking the law by directly profiting from taxpayer's money.

That may work for you, in your games, but it isn't the thing things work in
the ADL. Of course, it is your game.

> However, it is illegal to not carry valid identification, though.

I see. In the ADL the SIN is the identification of citizens.
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:05:25 +0100
According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Thursday 15 January 2004 12:57 the word
on the street was...

> > I can't see how it would be an offense to have had slacker or
> > unfortunate parents.
>
> Never been to Germany, eh? Even today, every Citizen at the age of 16+
> has to have proper ID.

But you get a SIN automatically at birth -- provided your birth was
properly registered. So if you don't have a SIN, that probably means your
_parents_ were breaking the law by not registering you when you were born.
Punishing you for something your parents did (or did not do) is a rather
strange thing in most modern judicial systems, though.

(Of course, you can always apply for a SIN yourself, if you don't have one
for some or another reason.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:13:55 +0100
G> According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Thursday 15 January 2004 12:57 the word
G> on the street was...

>> > I can't see how it would be an offense to have had slacker or
>> > unfortunate parents.
>>
>> Never been to Germany, eh? Even today, every Citizen at the age of 16+
>> has to have proper ID.

G> But you get a SIN automatically at birth -- provided your birth was
G> properly registered. So if you don't have a SIN, that probably means your
G> _parents_ were breaking the law by not registering you when you were born.
G> Punishing you for something your parents did (or did not do) is a rather
G> strange thing in most modern judicial systems, though.

G> (Of course, you can always apply for a SIN yourself, if you don't have one
G> for some or another reason.)


---------------------------------------------
will be dificult because you must prove that you are german and
everything and chance is taht you dont have a birth certificate and
your parents aren't there. Because if you were born in a hospital
which coud give you a birth certificate you would have a sin ;)
Message no. 9
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:27:04 -0700
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com]On Behalf Of Hexren
> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 11:14 AM
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> Subject: Re[2]: SINless community !!!
>
>
> G> According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Thursday 15 January 2004
> 12:57 the word
> G> on the street was...
>
> >> > I can't see how it would be an offense to have had slacker or
> >> > unfortunate parents.
> >>
> >> Never been to Germany, eh? Even today, every Citizen at the age of 16+
> >> has to have proper ID.
>
> G> But you get a SIN automatically at birth -- provided your birth was
> G> properly registered. So if you don't have a SIN, that probably
> means your
> G> _parents_ were breaking the law by not registering you when
> you were born.
> G> Punishing you for something your parents did (or did not do)
> is a rather
> G> strange thing in most modern judicial systems, though.
>
> G> (Of course, you can always apply for a SIN yourself, if you
> don't have one
> G> for some or another reason.)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> will be dificult because you must prove that you are german and
> everything and chance is taht you dont have a birth certificate and
> your parents aren't there. Because if you were born in a hospital
> which coud give you a birth certificate you would have a sin ;)

>From what I've read it's pretty easy to be assigned a SIN. If the Seatle
police catch a SINless person for example, they assign that person a SIN
asap. It doesn't say anything about them needing any form of identification
(which leads me to believe that the SIN is tied to the person's
fingerprints, retinal scan, and possibly DNA).

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 10
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:31:43 +0000
> >From what I've read it's pretty easy to be assigned a SIN. If the Seatle
> police catch a SINless person for example, they assign that person a SIN
> asap. It doesn't say anything about them needing any form of identification
> (which leads me to believe that the SIN is tied to the person's
> fingerprints, retinal scan, and possibly DNA).
>

Don't they give them a criminal SIN in such cases, though? So yeah, it's pretty easy to
get a SIN but not necessarily a desirable one since criminal SINs have all kinds of
limitations.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 11
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:28:35 +0100
According to Hexren, on Thursday 15 January 2004 19:13 the word on the
street was...

> will be dificult because you must prove that you are german and
> everything and chance is taht you dont have a birth certificate and
> your parents aren't there. Because if you were born in a hospital
> which coud give you a birth certificate you would have a sin ;)

Yes, you see, that is exactly the problem: if you don't have a SIN because
you didn't get one at birth, you have to apply for one. But if you apply
for one, you have to prove you are German. But to prove you are German,
you need to have been assigned a SIN at birth. Sounds like a vicious
circle to me...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: SINless community !!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:31:54 +0100
On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:05:25 +0100, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:


> But you get a SIN automatically at birth -- provided your birth was
> properly registered. So if you don't have a SIN, that probably means your
> _parents_ were breaking the law by not registering you when you were
> born.

Usually, yes. Considering the history of the ADL, no.
Germany suffered a time of secession (South Germany is still existing in
the 2060's), with military governments (which catapulted the Franfurter
Bankwnverein where it is now, lax law-enforcement, and such) and suffered
the EuroWars and their trail of refugees. Together with the general chaos
of the Awakening, there are many folks who didn'tg et a SIN coz the
administration missed them, or because they never left the country.
There are more reasons than just parents being lax.

> Punishing you for something your parents did (or did not do) is a rather
> strange thing in most modern judicial systems, though.

Heh, you have _never_ been in the claws of the German suicidal, er,
judicial system.

Let's just say that it is all about law, and not about justice.

> (Of course, you can always apply for a SIN yourself, if you don't have
> one for some or another reason.)

In the UCAS, yes, but last time I checked that was not possible in the
ADL, but it has been a while since I checked DidS2, though.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster From Hell (Der Meister) and General Idiot

"Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice."
- Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC (Ret.), regarding combat handgun training

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about SINless community !!!, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!