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Message no. 1
From: Daniel Paddock <D_PADDOCK@****.LVC.EDU>
Subject: SINs
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 18:34:29 -0400
Has anyone out there used the houngan archetype as presented in White Wolf
Magazine? I am considering using it in an upcoming campaign and would welcome
any sort of comments or suggestions.
Additionally, has anyone converted the 1st ed spells from the same
article to 2nd ed?


Thanks again,

R. Daniel Paddock

End of returned message
Message no. 2
From: "S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 11:15:15 +0100
On Tue, 3 May 1994, Daniel Paddock wrote:

> Has anyone out there used the houngan archetype as presented in White Wolf
> Magazine?


What is a houngan ?
Message no. 3
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: SINS
Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 13:34:08 +0100
Your SIN is your life...
without a sin,you don't exist to the powers that be...
So no welfare, no VOTE, no rights as a citizen, no bank
accounts,records,licences,nothing

But this doesn't protect you...if you get caught, they'll just
start a file for you.and maybe then deport you for being an
illegal imigrant

But as long as you stay out of veiw,use debit sticks or barter
to pay for things,and don't get busted,you'll live...

ps.
Anyone ever think that all you personal records are on your
credstick? Tax, banking, medical, housing, education, job
records,everything.
So if you buy anything,from a cannon to a 30 second phone
call, the machine knows who you are.(and can report you if you
are a wanted criminal,or behind on your payments, or using an
illegal/forged stick)
And who owns the shop/phone/whatever? The Corporations!
It's hard to stay secret in these times...

CHOPPER
Satans own glovepuppet
Message no. 4
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: SINS
Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 17:54:38 +0200
Chopper wrote:
> Your SIN is your life...
... weren't there something else, too? (only joking)

> Anyone ever think that all you personal records are on your
> credstick? Tax, banking, medical, housing, education, job
> records,everything.
> So if you buy anything,from a cannon to a 30 second phone
> call, the machine knows who you are.(and can report you if you
> are a wanted criminal,or behind on your payments, or using an
> illegal/forged stick)
> And who owns the shop/phone/whatever? The Corporations!
> It's hard to stay secret in these times...
That's exactly the reason why every shadowrunner should own a
handfull of forged SINs (s. Neo-A Guide to Real Life). My PC has
two low-level credsticks(4) and one little-higher (6, but very
expensive) to cover all tracks. Use the lows for phonecalls from
public phones, etc and the high one for airport-security and
things like that. Problem is to get a new one, when you used
the old ones too often.
... and they are hard to come by (I paid the one with rating 6
not only with money, but blood, sweat and tears)

Bye, Stefan (Son of Yuboert)
Message no. 5
From: jacob hawkins <HAWKINSJ@********.WA.COM>
Subject: Re: SINS
Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 21:43:51 +0200
That's what certified credsticks are for - so's ya don't get caught.
Snakebait
______________________________________________________________________
"Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife | Doctor Emilio Lizardo
Doomed is your soul and damned is your life!"| a.k.a Lord John
| Whorphin
Message no. 6
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 23:52:41 -0600
Remeber, if you are SINless, and you get arrested, don't expect any due
process, because people that don't exist don't have rights...

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 7
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:50:56 +1100
Robert A. Hayden writes:

> Remeber, if you are SINless, and you get arrested, don't expect any due
> process, because people that don't exist don't have rights...

Yeah, and what's more, after you finally get out (of the cell, and of
hospital), you'll then be a SINful person. Lucky you. Oh well, at least
you'll get treated better next time...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 8
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: SINs
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 09:59:34 -0500
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert A Hayden
<hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU> writes:

Robert> Remeber, if you are SINless, and you get arrested, don't expect any
Robert> due process, because people that don't exist don't have rights...

Whelp, the moment you get arrested, if you don't already have a SIN, one is
assigned to you by the state right then and there, even before you get a
lawyer. The state can't do anything with you if you don't have a SIN.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 9
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 09:55:02 -0600
On Wed, 23 Nov 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Whelp, the moment you get arrested, if you don't already have a SIN, one is
> assigned to you by the state right then and there, even before you get a
> lawyer. The state can't do anything with you if you don't have a SIN.

Yea, but somebody could delay the assigning to slap you around some...

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 10
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 10:45:17 +1100
On Wed, 23 Nov 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Whelp, the moment you get arrested, if you don't already have a SIN, one is
> assigned to you by the state right then and there, even before you get a
> lawyer. The state can't do anything with you if you don't have a SIN.

I would suggest that there are different privileges that can be assigned
to a SIN, at the discretion of the state and corp. Such privileges would
apply only to uses of the SIN within the jurisdiction of the privilege-
provider, of course. (Amazing what you can do in a computerised society,
isn't it.)

So the right to a fair trial; the right to use a public utility - these
and others could be granted or withheld at the state's whim.

I'd say that when you were arrested, you'd be given only the following
`privileges':

1) The right to be punished.
2) The right to have your property seized/searched.
3) The right to have identifying marks made on, or devices
installed in, your body.

This isn't a socialist society we're talking about, after all.

luke
Message no. 11
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: SINs
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 19:59:01 -0500
>>>>> "Luke" == Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
writes:

Luke> So the right to a fair trial; the right to use a public utility -
Luke> these and others could be granted or withheld at the state's whim.

Which violates the laws that the CAS and UCAS operate by (based on the old
United States). While corporate enclaves can operate under the "shoot first
and sort it out later" principle, the CAS and UCAS both operate under the
principle of "innocent until proven guilty."

If what you suggest happens on a regular basis, and word gets out (and it
will, eventually), there will be hell to pay. The results would be worse in
many ways than the Great Ghost Dance.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|of skin.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 12
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 19:22:00 CDT
Robert A. Hayden wrote:

>Yea, but somebody could delay the assigning to slap you around some...

I disagree slightly here. If a cop gets ahold of someone who is SINless, they
have two choices:

Assign the person a new SIN and treat them like any other criminal, or

Rough them up a bit and let them go.

You see, if they rough them up and then arrest them and assign the person a
SIN, they now have a rather ticked off person with a SIN who might form a
lawsuit based on their injuries. But if they rough them up and let them go,
then the beat-up SINless person has nowhere to go to complain.

I would say it comes down to a judgement call as to what the LS cop is going
to do.

--David L. Hoff
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu
Message no. 13
From: Marcel Emami <rab@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 11:34:21 MEZ
luke wrote
>
> 1) The right to be punished.
> 2) The right to have your property seized/searched.
> 3) The right to have identifying marks made on, or devices
> installed in, your body.

Don't forget
4) The right to get an CIN (= A criminal Idetification Number
with a retina scan, dna pattern and voice scan. So they
can charge you the next time even more and they can identify
you and some false id you use ('cause ID do have retinascan on
them ).


Rab
GM/GO -d+(---) -P+(---) c+(+++) l u e+ m+ s /- n+ h+ f+ g++ w+ t-- r++ y++

rab@***.informatik.uni-mannheim.de
Message no. 14
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 14:11:38 -0400
On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, John W. Carter wrote:

> > Why do you keep making the blanket assumption that all runners
> >are SINless?
>
> Because, simply put, if a 'runner has a SIN, he can be traced.
> Rather easily, in fact. Some spilled blood, an account transfer, and
> LS is on their ass faster than dwarves to a tavern.

Not if Lone Star doesn't have a file on you. They can't trace you
if they have no fragging clue who you are. The most they can do is
establish a file on an anonymous criminal. If they ever catch you,
yes, they can link you to the crimes, but they could do that without a
SIN to work with anyway. Besides, that's why you take precautions to avoid
this kind of entanglement. Of course you're not going to pay taxes on
your ill-gotten gains, but that doesn't mean that a SIN is automatically
bad. Without a SIN, you have no access to the things that the public
takes for granted. If you get pulled over for speeding, you're screwed.
You can't legally own a house. Most of the common everyday services
that can make your life slightly more convenient are unavailable to you.
Your banking situation is no fun because you are always carrying around
certified cred. You lose that stick and everything you have is gone,
because the user need not establish identity. That's why it's a
*certified* credstick.

> Besides, what sane individual with a SIN NEEDS to be a 'runner? They
> have their whole life taken care of for them. They can get a real job;
> they can get a lot of other drek any 'runner would spend an arm and a
> leg for otherwise. A SIN is an anchor.

Say *what* ??? Just because I have a social security number
doesn't mean my life is "taken care of for me." Unemployment, inflation,
and a horde of other things plagueing modern economics affect me just the
same. Sure, I have a SIN. But due to automation at the factory I work
at, I'm out of a job. Now I am out on the street with no income and no
remaining marketable skills. How am I going to feed my wife and three
kids? If situations get bad enough, I'll turn to shadowrunning just to
put food on the table. Does that mean I no longer have a SIN? No. So
why assume that SIN = instant prosperity?

> Um, last I checked, most things 'runners do is illegal anyway, so I'd
> think the least of their worries is getting caught with a concealed weapon.

That's true. If I'm caught in the act of vaporising some corp
goon in the course of my exploits, sure, a concealed carry permit is the
least of my worries. But as the saying goes, "getting there is half the
fun." It's kind of nice to be able to carry around a firearm on the
street (when you're *not* in the middle of a run) and not have to be worried
about having the cops drag you away to jail. Having a SIN and the
appropriate permits makes transport easier, and lessens your chances of
being nabbed by the Star for something unrelated to any runs you may
have undertaken in the past. If they drag some SINless punk in for an
unlawful possession charge and then discover that the gun matches
ballistics data from several recent murders, then not having a SIN is
directly responsible for linking you to those murders.
So my original point stands. A SIN is neither a godsend nor an
"anchor." It's just another example of the kinds of personal choices and
sacrifices each individual feels necessary. Like anything else, it has
its pros and cons.

Marc
Message no. 15
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 14:23:26 -0400
> So my original point stands. A SIN is neither a godsend nor an
> "anchor." It's just another example of the kinds of personal choices and
> sacrifices each individual feels necessary. Like anything else, it has
> its pros and cons.

And the best of both worlds is to carry one or more very good *FAKE* SINs.
Particularly if they have hidden vulnerabilities such that you can weasel
out of them if they're pinned on you. ("Yes, officer, that looks like me,
but that sure isn't MY retinal scan!")


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "I'll make the command easy to
My opinions are my opinions. | remember, like CTRL-ALT-F4-DEL."
Please don't blame anyone else. | - Dilbert (by Scott Adams)
Message no. 16
From: Guy Swartwood <gswartwo@*********.WICHITAKS.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:06:00 PDT
Marc wrote>>>
>bad. Without a SIN, you have no access to the things that the public
>takes for granted. If you get pulled over for speeding, you're screwed.
>You can't legally own a house. Most of the common everyday services
>that can make your life slightly more convenient are unavailable to you.
>Your banking situation is no fun because you are always carrying around
>certified cred. You lose that stick and everything you have is gone,
>because the user need not establish identity. That's why it's a
>*certified* credstick.

Yup, you are correct, also in Denver, without a good fake (or real) SIN,
crossing borders is hazardous because you have to cross illegally (over the
borders). With the SIN, it is less risky.

>fun." It's kind of nice to be able to carry around a firearm on the
>street (when you're *not* in the middle of a run) and not have to be
worried
>about having the cops drag you away to jail. Having a SIN and the
>appropriate permits makes transport easier, and lessens your chances of
>being nabbed by the Star for something unrelated to any runs you may
>have undertaken in the past. If they drag some SINless punk in for an
>unlawful possession charge and then discover that the gun matches
>ballistics data from several recent murders, then not having a SIN is
>directly responsible for linking you to those murders.

I was glad lots of times when I could walk around certain parts of Denver
with a weapon because I have the correct permits (that show I work for
security of a corp). Makes my life alot easier...

Having a real SIN is not fun, but fake ones are great. Yes, they are
expensive (good ones anyways), but the price you pay for them are quite
worth it.

Guy Swartwood corporate decker by day, shadowrunner at night
wildman@******.net
gswartwo@*********.wichitaks.attgis.com
Message no. 17
From: Simon Paul Stroud <s_sps4@*******.ITS.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:10:39 +1000
I can't tell you how many times I, as a GM, have had to invent some
convoluted means of getting PCs out of a situation in which their
SINlessness would have had them hung, drawn and quatered. And I don't
like interceding for them all that much.

For example, PCs are at a fancy dinner when someone kills a guest. Cops
turn up and proceed to question and ID everyone in the room. Players
solution - shoot everything/one, jump out the window (fourth floor) when
noone is looking or try to hide in the cupboards/under the bed etc.

SINless characters are okay, but unless they have a good fake ID they're
fragged in no time. You want to see the rest of UCAS? Tough drek, chummer.

That's why my latest campaign centres on the exploits of a bunch of
retired KE special ops. and their friends and family - they've all got
SINs or good fakes, they've got reasons to trust one another, and they
have some basic morals.

Horus.
Message no. 18
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 20:05:37 -0700
>SINless characters are okay, but unless they have a good fake ID they're
>fragged in no time. You want to see the rest of UCAS? Tough drek, chummer.

In my game I give everyone a fake ID rating 3. It's enough to allow them
the simple pleasures, without, IMHO giving them too much. If they want
something better they have to role-play getting it, but a rating 3 will
stand up to simple scanners and I allow them to keep a simple bank account
on it. Too much money in there though, and someone might decide to do a
more thorough check.

I find that it simplifies some of the simpler things, they can have telecom
service, cable, eat out w/o using certified creds, etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But what ... is it good for?"

-- Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM,
1968, commenting on the microchip.
Message no. 19
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:39:31 +0000
On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, The Cuckoo Clock wrote:

> I find that it simplifies some of the simpler things, they can have telecom
> service, cable, eat out w/o using certified creds, etc.
>
Money still exists in paper and coin form though, there was a decent
article on this in an early issue of Ka.Ge including corp script and
stuff -also I believe in Dreamchipper in a Tell it To Them Straight
section it says something about pushing some notes into a troll bouncers
hand (it could be Mercurial I'm thinking of)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 20
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*****.com>
Subject: SINs
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:14:27 -0700
Ok lets say you don't have a SIN.. that means you don't have any papers at
all. Car insurance, license and all that.. have to get one made right?!? and
any services (like DocWagon) would require you have one as well right?

Owl

Owl
Shane Courtrille
hardware@*****.com
http://www.oanet.com/homepage/hardware/index.htm (Check it out...)
___ ___ ___ ___ ___
<*,*> <*,*> <x,x> <*,*> (o,o)
[`-'] [`S'] >>>>>>> =^`-'^= {`"'}
-"-"- -"-"- <<<<<<< "
" -"-"-
Owl Super Owl RoadKill Owl Flying Owl ME!!!
Message no. 21
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:24:26 +0000 (GMT)
|
|Ok lets say you don't have a SIN.. that means you don't have any papers at
|all. Car insurance, license and all that.. have to get one made right?!? and
|any services (like DocWagon) would require you have one as well right?

Thoeretically, yes. But the way Docwagon has always beenj played here is as
a freelance company. You pay, you get the service, SIN or no....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| | Zaphod Beeblebroxs' last meal was taken at the |
| u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | Restaraunt at the end of the universe, since when |
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| | Spaceship, eaten by a carbon copy of the ravenous |
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| Andrew Halliwell | and in consequence made his way to the office |
| | building of the Hitch-Hikers guide to the Galaxy, |
| Foundation Year |which was then unaccountably attacked by a squadron |
| | of Frog Star fighters, Hauled in it's entirety off |
| Leading to | the surface of the planet and is now making it's |
| Principal Subjects in |way (with Zaphods' mysterious new friend Roosta) to |
| Visual Arts | the even more mysterious Frog Star. |
| & | He is therefore, not unnaturally, feeling a little |
| Computer Science | peckish........ - Douglas Adams |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 22
From: TENSEN2@***.com
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:02:43 -0500
In a message dated 96-01-18 18:31:37 EST, you write:

>|
>|Ok lets say you don't have a SIN.. that means you don't have any papers at
>|all. Car insurance, license and all that.. have to get one made right?!?
and
>|any services (like DocWagon) would require you have one as well right?
>
>Thoeretically, yes. But the way Docwagon has always beenj played here is as
>a freelance company. You pay, you get the service, SIN or no....
>--

DocWagon if I recall correctly has something akin to their own IDs... could
be that they figure a lot of SINless people will need their service as well
as SINners, and could care less as long as they pay?

However most SINless poeple I know, aren't truly SINless.. they just don't
have or use a SIN that is really them.. After all, few shadowrunners can
live without a SIN of a sort. What to do about payments?!?
Message no. 23
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*****.com>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:26:23 -0700
>>|
>>|Ok lets say you don't have a SIN.. that means you don't have any papers at
>>|all. Car insurance, license and all that.. have to get one made right?!?
>
>However most SINless poeple I know, aren't truly SINless.. they just don't
>have or use a SIN that is really them.. After all, few shadowrunners can
>live without a SIN of a sort. What to do about payments?!?
>

Which brings up a new thread... How do most of you fellow GM's out there pay
your characters?

Paper =Y=, Bank Accounts, Corporate Accounts, etc... :)



Owl
Shane Courtrille
hardware@*****.com
http://www.oanet.com/homepage/hardware/index.htm (Check it out...)
___ ___ ___ ___ ___
<*,*> <*,*> <x,x> <*,*> (o,o)
[`-'] [`S'] >>>>>>> =^`-'^= {`"'}
-"-"- -"-"- <<<<<<< "
" -"-"-
Owl Super Owl RoadKill Owl Flying Owl ME!!!
Message no. 24
From: Doug Miller <enigma@********.jpl.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:17:07 +0000 (GMT)
On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, Shane Courtrille wrote:

> Which brings up a new thread... How do most of you fellow GM's out there pay
> your characters?
>
> Paper =Y=, Bank Accounts, Corporate Accounts, etc... :)

Wouldn't you and your Johnson come to an agreement as to how the $ is
transfered before hand?
Message no. 25
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 19:05:28 +1100 (EST)
>Which brings up a new thread... How do most of you fellow GM's out there pay
>your characters?
>
>Paper =Y=, Bank Accounts, Corporate Accounts, etc... :)

The usual operation is certified credsticks. These can be kept in their
current form, or whatever the player wants. Three of my players have
false SINs, which they use to put credsticks on, though they keep some
cert cred for those "large transactions".

Other forms of payment include bearer bonds, and a variant called bearer
shares. I tried (once) to get them to accept corp script, but they
weren't that foolish.

The old fashioned Swiss account is good, too... especially for deckers,
who can hide the "paper trail" involved in accessing it.

All my players keep a large amount of cert cred available though,
considering the last time they had a hit team out on them, they got
through alive but mostly penniless.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 26
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 19:05:58 +1100 (EST)
>Thoeretically, yes. But the way Docwagon has always beenj played here is as
>a freelance company. You pay, you get the service, SIN or no....

Nice theory... how do you prove you're a client? Contractual obligations
are hard to show under such circumstances, don't you think?


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 27
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:01:17 +0000 (GMT)
|
|>Thoeretically, yes. But the way Docwagon has always beenj played here is as
|>a freelance company. You pay, you get the service, SIN or no....
|
|Nice theory... how do you prove you're a client? Contractual obligations
|are hard to show under such circumstances, don't you think?
|
Yes, but think how much business Docwagon gets out of runners.
If they broke contract with one runner, they'd lose one hell of a lot of
business with the rest....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| | Zaphod Beeblebroxs' last meal was taken at the |
| u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | Restaraunt at the end of the universe, since when |
| | he has been catapulted through time in a Hagunenon |
| | Spaceship, eaten by a carbon copy of the ravenous |
| | bugblatter beast of traal, received strange and |
| |unedifying instructions from himself (in his sleep!)|
| Andrew Halliwell | and in consequence made his way to the office |
| | building of the Hitch-Hikers guide to the Galaxy, |
| Foundation Year |which was then unaccountably attacked by a squadron |
| | of Frog Star fighters, Hauled in it's entirety off |
| Leading to | the surface of the planet and is now making it's |
| Principal Subjects in |way (with Zaphods' mysterious new friend Roosta) to |
| Visual Arts | the even more mysterious Frog Star. |
| & | He is therefore, not unnaturally, feeling a little |
| Computer Science | peckish........ - Douglas Adams |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 28
From: TENSEN2@***.com
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:38:37 -0500
In a message dated 96-01-19 03:15:59 EST, you write:

>>Thoeretically, yes. But the way Docwagon has always beenj played here is as
>>a freelance company. You pay, you get the service, SIN or no....
>
>Nice theory... how do you prove you're a client? Contractual obligations
>are hard to show under such circumstances, don't you think?
>
>

You don't pay.. you die... How hard is it for a medical team, with high
threat response capabilities to frag you?
Not your transmitter in case of trouble...ever wonder if there is something
able to track that before it is signalled?!? Anyone ever take one apart?!?
Never frag with DocWagon.. its safer to geek a few lone star cops...
recorded by media... while calling your partners by their real names...
Message no. 29
From: TENSEN2@***.com
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:44:14 -0500
In a message dated 96-01-19 06:07:51 EST, you write:

>|>Thoeretically, yes. But the way Docwagon has always beenj played here is
as
>|>a freelance company. You pay, you get the service, SIN or no....
>|
>|Nice theory... how do you prove you're a client? Contractual obligations
>|are hard to show under such circumstances, don't you think?
>|
>Yes, but think how much business Docwagon gets out of runners.
>If they broke contract with one runner, they'd lose one hell of a lot of
>business with the rest....
>
>

Of course there is nothing to say that a responce to a runner's call gets
there with the same priority as a normal SINner's.
Message no. 30
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:05:11 +0000 (GMT)
|
|In a message dated 96-01-19 03:15:59 EST, you write:
|
|>>Thoeretically, yes. But the way Docwagon has always beenj played here is as
|>>a freelance company. You pay, you get the service, SIN or no....
|>
|>Nice theory... how do you prove you're a client? Contractual obligations
|>are hard to show under such circumstances, don't you think?
|>
|>
|
|You don't pay.. you die... How hard is it for a medical team, with high
|threat response capabilities to frag you?
|Not your transmitter in case of trouble...ever wonder if there is something
|able to track that before it is signalled?!? Anyone ever take one apart?!?
|Never frag with DocWagon.. its safer to geek a few lone star cops...
| recorded by media... while calling your partners by their real names...

Yep.... We actually did a run to help the Docwagons once when some Gits were
attacking them...
Seems some rival corp was trying to invade the Docwagons' turf and give them
a bad attitude by having them attacked all the time.
(Got some good pay fom that job...)
|
|
|


--
______________________________________________________________________________
| | Zaphod Beeblebroxs' last meal was taken at the |
| u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | Restaraunt at the end of the universe, since when |
| | he has been catapulted through time in a Hagunenon |
| | Spaceship, eaten by a carbon copy of the ravenous |
| | bugblatter beast of traal, received strange and |
| |unedifying instructions from himself (in his sleep!)|
| Andrew Halliwell | and in consequence made his way to the office |
| | building of the Hitch-Hikers guide to the Galaxy, |
| Foundation Year |which was then unaccountably attacked by a squadron |
| | of Frog Star fighters, Hauled in it's entirety off |
| Leading to | the surface of the planet and is now making it's |
| Principal Subjects in |way (with Zaphods' mysterious new friend Roosta) to |
| Visual Arts | the even more mysterious Frog Star. |
| & | He is therefore, not unnaturally, feeling a little |
| Computer Science | peckish........ - Douglas Adams |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 31
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:23:10 +1100 (EST)
>|Nice theory... how do you prove you're a client? Contractual obligations
>|are hard to show under such circumstances, don't you think?
>|
>Yes, but think how much business Docwagon gets out of runners.
>If they broke contract with one runner, they'd lose one hell of a lot of
>business with the rest....

99.9% of the time runners get majorly injured, they don't want to stick
around long enough for DocWagon, or LS, or the corp's security geeks to
turn up. :) Besides, DocWagon won't do a retrival in a ultra-dangerous
situation.

And anyway, how is DocWagon going to verify you're a client, unless
they've assigned you some sort of ID, with payment records (and a source
of extra cred for all those unforeseen medical bills).


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 32
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 08:57:04 GMT
> Ok lets say you don't have a SIN.. that means you don't have any papers at
> all. Car insurance, license and all that.. have to get one made right?!? and
> any services (like DocWagon) would require you have one as well right?
> Owl

DocWagon only care about your contract number and your bank balance. They
give you the bracelet, you place the call, they check to see that you're
paid up to date. If you are, they come get you. If not, as you lie there
bleeding you hear a recorded message apologising for the fact that since
your account is in arrears, there will be a delay in service until sufficient
cleared funds are available :)

No SIN, no driver's licence, insurance, et cetera, though. No passport,
either, so you can't just swan into an airport and get on a plane to Europe:
in fact, you can't really get out of Seattle. Not many places will give
someone who doesn't exist a visa, either.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 33
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 09:24:20 GMT
> And anyway, how is DocWagon going to verify you're a client, unless
> they've assigned you some sort of ID, with payment records (and a source
> of extra cred for all those unforeseen medical bills).

If you don't have a SIN, you pay up front. When the money runs out, so does
your treatment. If you're conscious and can get to a 'phone to transfer
more, they might lend you one call on a cellular :)

DocWagon don't care who you are: they will service the account as long as
it's in credit. As one of the books (NAGRL, from memory) points out, that
means you can read the PIN off someone's bracelet and use it at their
expense... maybe. Of course, if you pay up front, they get the interest
on your money while it sits in their accounts... extra profit for free.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 34
From: Shadowrunner <nocturnal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: SINs...
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:35:02 +0000
What exactly does SIN stand for? And what exactly is it?

Nocturnal
Message no. 35
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SINs...
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:47:51 EDT
In a message dated 7/1/98 10:36:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
nocturnal@*******.NET writes:

> What exactly does SIN stand for? And what exactly is it?
>
>
System Identification Number. It serves the same purpose as the Social
Security Number does for the United States, but is used more extensively. It
often is linked to your birth records, financial reports, educational
background and MUCH more. It is part of the SIN system that is now world wide
within SR (Systemwide Identification Network).

-K
Message no. 36
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SINs...
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:51:54 +0100
And verily, did Shadowrunner hastily scribble thusly...
|
|What exactly does SIN stand for? And what exactly is it?

System Identification Number.
It's basically your credit card/driving licence/ID card/National insurance
number/social securuty number and any other ID number you care to mention
all rolled into one.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 37
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: SINs...
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:47:56 -0600
K is the Symbol wrote:
/
/ > What exactly does SIN stand for? And what exactly is it?
/
/ System Identification Number. It serves the same purpose as the Social
/ Security Number does for the United States, but is used more extensively. It
/ often is linked to your birth records, financial reports, educational
/ background and MUCH more. It is part of the SIN system that is now world wide
/ within SR (Systemwide Identification Network).

I was under the impression that it is the only identification number a
person needs. You no longer need a government ID, driver license ID,
bank account number, checking account number, HMO number, phone number,
etc. You have one number, your SIN.

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 38
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SINs...
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:24:10 EDT
In a message dated 7/2/98 12:47:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

> / System Identification Number. It serves the same purpose as the Social
> / Security Number does for the United States, but is used more extensively.
> It
> / often is linked to your birth records, financial reports, educational
> / background and MUCH more. It is part of the SIN system that is now world
> wide
> / within SR (Systemwide Identification Network).
>
> I was under the impression that it is the only identification number a
> person needs. You no longer need a government ID, driver license ID,
> bank account number, checking account number, HMO number, phone number,
> etc. You have one number, your SIN.
>
Uhm, er, David, i thought that is what I said in that previous paragraph
there. Could you or someone else point out where I didn't say that? I -is-
confoozed ;)

-K
Message no. 39
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: SINs...
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:06:06 -0600
K is the Symbol wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 7/2/98 12:47:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
/ dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:
/
/> / System Identification Number. It serves the same purpose as the Social
/> / Security Number does for the United States, but is used more extensively.
/> It
/> / often is linked to your birth records, financial reports, educational
/> / background and MUCH more. It is part of the SIN system that is now world
/ > wide
/ > / within SR (Systemwide Identification Network).
/ >
/ > I was under the impression that it is the only identification number a
/ > person needs. You no longer need a government ID, driver license ID,
/ > bank account number, checking account number, HMO number, phone number,
/ > etc. You have one number, your SIN.
/ >
/ Uhm, er, David, i thought that is what I said in that previous paragraph
/ there. Could you or someone else point out where I didn't say that? I -is-
/ confoozed ;)

No, no. I'm the one that's confused. I kinda browsed over your post and
thought I was adding to it. Sorry bout that :)

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 40
From: Sir Philos Nex <philos@****.NET>
Subject: SINs
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:43:24 -0400
Fixer wrote:

> Hire a lawyer and let them handle the details? After all, not
> having a SIN is not a crime, per say. It simply means you don't have all
> the benefits of having a SIN (taxes, tracability, voting, etc.) but do
> suffer the drawbacks of not having a SIN (no one of importance will listen
> to you, cops give you a hard time, you have difficulty proving ownership
> of anything, etc.).
>

Would not - not having a SIN make you more or less a non-citizen? or worse, a
citizen who hasn't paid taxes or anythign for years and years? I guess that would be
a bit of confusion for me regarding that in one case you could look at a SINless
person as just someone who has never been identified by the system but has been
living on the streets and living an 'unofficial lifestyle' their entire lives... or
you could look at it as a requisit for being a citizen and having anyrights, even the
right to walk around because without one you'd be more like an illegal alien.. except
where would you end up going? hmmmm....

--
Andrew Dominas
AKA Sir Philos Nex
3rd Year Honours Business Administration U of Windsor
Sysop LiMBo BBS 519 - 948 - 7400 TAG 2.7d
ICQ: 4050857
Message no. 41
From: Sean Matheis <sean@****.NET>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:49:51 -0700
On 28 Sep 98, at 20:43, Ryo-ohki observed Sir Philos Nex saying:

> Would not - not having a SIN make you more or less a non-citizen? or

A SINless is a person who has no identity, nor rights, in "the system."
The closest analogy I can think of in today's world is an illegal
immigrant, one who is in this country (the US in this case) illegally.
The only difference here is that they have some rights under law, whereas
in 205x SR, they have no rights.

Someone who has a SIN but hasn't paid their taxes must be doing a lot
to avoid notice; only using certified cred, living in places that doesn't
care about a SIN, not working under their SIN... ie. trying to not be
noticed by the system.

-Sean



-Fieran, "Dances with Bears" :: Elf PhysAd
**sean<at>slip.net**http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun**
Message no. 42
From: Drea O'Dare <dreaodare@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:58:54 PDT
> Would not - not having a SIN make you more or less a non-citizen?
or worse, a
>citizen who hasn't paid taxes or anythign for years and years? I guess
that would be
>a bit of confusion for me regarding that in one case you could look at
a SINless
>person as just someone who has never been identified by the system but
has been
>living on the streets and living an 'unofficial lifestyle' their entire
lives... or
>you could look at it as a requisit for being a citizen and having
anyrights, even the
>right to walk around because without one you'd be more like an illegal
alien.. except
>where would you end up going? hmmmm....

An interesting look at stuff. And yeah, having a SIN is a good idea
if you're in in a 9 to 5 job. If your character is ever going to do
anything outside of the shadows, they need one. That's the way I look
at it. Anyone that runs the shadows shouldn't have one while they're
running, to avoid the criminal record, but after that? Once you've
gotten all your money? What do you do?
Just a little thought.

Pink`

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 43
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:09:22 -0400
On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Sir Philos Nex wrote:

->Fixer wrote:
->
->> Hire a lawyer and let them handle the details? After all, not
->> having a SIN is not a crime, per say. It simply means you don't have all
->> the benefits of having a SIN (taxes, tracability, voting, etc.) but do
->> suffer the drawbacks of not having a SIN (no one of importance will listen
->> to you, cops give you a hard time, you have difficulty proving ownership
->> of anything, etc.).
->>
->
-> Would not - not having a SIN make you more or less a non-citizen?

No more than not having a social security number would make you a
non-citizen in this country. It's rare, but it happens.

->or worse, a citizen who hasn't paid taxes or anythign for years and
->years?

They can't legally get a driver's license, they can't even get an
ID card. They can't get a legal job (since employers require SSN to
report income tax to the govt), they have difficulty owning property.
It's not a life I'd want to live, but you can live like that.

->I guess that would be a bit of confusion for me regarding that in one
->case you could look at a SINless person as just someone who has never
->been identified by the system but has been living on the streets and
->living an 'unofficial lifestyle' their entire lives... or you could look
->at it as a requisit for being a citizen and having anyrights, even the
->right to walk around because without one you'd be more like an illegal
->alien.. except where would you end up going? hmmmm....

All you really NEED to prove citizenship is a birth certificate.
In present time they are easy enough to get false ones if it says you were
born prior to 1973 (so I've been told by those who know, someting about
the records being tracked better after 1972). In 2060, that would make
the person in their late 80s and isn't much of an option for most runners.
A more likely alternative is to get a birth certificate from a hospital
that was destroyed shortly after your character's "birth" and make up your
own. Or, have a midwife file papers, apologizing for being late ("they
were stuck behind a cabinet that just got moved" or something) when the
runner needs a new ID. Obviously this doesn't happen all the time. As
long as you can generate a birth certificate, anyone can go from there
(apply for a SIN under that name, explain where you've been and what
you've ben doing, get more ID, etc.).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 44
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: SINs
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 19:40:03 +0200
Drea O'Dare wrote:
> (snip) but after that? Once you've
> gotten all your money? What do you do?

Spend it?

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about SINs, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!