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Message no. 1
From: Rick Jones <rick@******.COM>
Subject: SINS and rights
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:26:06 -0600 (CST)
It's been said that folks without SINs (like Shadowrunners) don't have
the full legal rights someone with a SIN has.

How far does that go? I'd assume that it's no problem for Lone Star to
"illegally" search a SINless person's home, but could they just geek someone
without legal hassles?

Also, how does a SINless person get a SIN?

I ask because in my game, there's a large SINless Homeless problem - and
the corps will be trying to round them up for use as essentially slave
labor. Can they do that? (Well, sure they _can_ but will they take heat
for it if it got out?)


--
Rick Jones "Oh, God, Mulder. It smells like...I think it's bile."
rick@******.com "Is there any way I can get it off my fingers quickly
Meyrick@***.com without betraying my cool exterior?"
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ --Scully & Mulder, X-Files, Squeeze
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 19:23:51 +1100 (EST)
>How far does that go? I'd assume that it's no problem for Lone Star to
>"illegally" search a SINless person's home, but could they just geek someone
>without legal hassles?

Well, you're right about that... a SINless person couldn't own property,
or even rent property, so how could they legally be said to have a home
for the Star to "illegally" search? :)

A SIN is required for ANYTHING that might want identification. Permits,
property ownership, bank accounts (and CREDSTICKS!), driver's license,
you name it.

>Also, how does a SINless person get a SIN?

They fake 'em. :) The easiest way to do this is to get a fake credstick,
which there are rules for in NAGRL.

--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 3
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:53:54 +0000 (GMT)
|
|It's been said that folks without SINs (like Shadowrunners) don't have
|the full legal rights someone with a SIN has.

They don't EXIST!!! They don't get ANY rights!

|How far does that go? I'd assume that it's no problem for Lone Star to
|"illegally" search a SINless person's home, but could they just geek someone
|without legal hassles?

Who'd care if another bum got bumped off? If the SINless one was also a
shadowrunner, hell he was armed and dangerous hofficer.....

|Also, how does a SINless person get a SIN?

Get arrested (and stay alive). After all, they can't put someone on trial
who doesn't exist. (This is not a good idea!!!!)

|I ask because in my game, there's a large SINless Homeless problem - and
|the corps will be trying to round them up for use as essentially slave
|labor. Can they do that? (Well, sure they _can_ but will they take heat
|for it if it got out?)

Public relations is everything. However, legally, they can do what the F&*%K
they want. (They're extra-territorial. They make thier own laws.)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| | Zaphod Beeblebroxs' last meal was taken at the |
| u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | Restaraunt at the end of the universe, since when |
| | he has been catapulted through time in a Hagunenon |
| | Spaceship, eaten by a carbon copy of the ravenous |
| | bugblatter beast of traal, received strange and |
| |unedifying instructions from himself (in his sleep!)|
| Andrew Halliwell | and in consequence made his way to the office |
| | building of the Hitch-Hikers guide to the Galaxy, |
| Foundation Year |which was then unaccountably attacked by a squadron |
| | of Frog Star fighters, Hauled in it's entirety off |
| Leading to | the surface of the planet and is now making it's |
| Principal Subjects in |way (with Zaphods' mysterious new friend Roosta) to |
| Visual Arts | the even more mysterious Frog Star. |
| & | He is therefore, not unnaturally, feeling a little |
| Computer Science | peckish........ - Douglas Adams |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:48:58 +0100
Rick Jones said on 15 Jan 96...

> It's been said that folks without SINs (like Shadowrunners) don't have
> the full legal rights someone with a SIN has.
>
> How far does that go? I'd assume that it's no problem for Lone Star to
> "illegally" search a SINless person's home,

Since the SINless person doesn't exist, nobody lives in his/her apartment,
so I guess it's not that hard to get in for Lone Star, paperwork-wise at
least :)

> but could they just geek someone without legal hassles?

Probably not, since then they'd have found an unidentified corpse, which
would likely require all kinds of official things to happen in order to
identify it.

> Also, how does a SINless person get a SIN?

If you get arrested, you get a SIN. Make it appear like you're an
immigrant from a foreign country wanting to live in the UCAS, and you'll
get a SIN (if you get in, of course :).
Other possibilities? Maybe you can go to wherever it is they issue SINs
and say "I don't have a SIN but would like to become a respectable
citizen." It might work...

> I ask because in my game, there's a large SINless Homeless problem - and
> the corps will be trying to round them up for use as essentially slave
> labor. Can they do that? (Well, sure they _can_ but will they take heat
> for it if it got out?)

What do you think? People will generally be outraged if it becomes known
that corp X is using people as slave laborers without having given them a
proper contract, like they do with therest of their employees :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He's trying to prove something. But what I don't know.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 22:36:28 +1100 (EST)
>They don't EXIST!!! They don't get ANY rights!

That's not true... they do exist, they do have rights. The basic human
rights, and all. The key word you're looking for is that they aren't
CITIZENS.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 6
From: David van Nederveen Meerkerk <D.N.M.vanNederveen@***.ruu.nl>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:32:11 +0100 (GMT+0100)
> >Also, how does a SINless person get a SIN?
>
> They fake 'em. :) The easiest way to do this is to get a fake credstick,
> which there are rules for in NAGRL.
>
Remember, that when you have a FAKE SIN, you DO have a SIN. But some
parts of it won't go with other sources of information. But I think that
the higher the level of the fake, the more sources and databanks will
know of you......including at some level, the Taxcollector's.....and if
you want to be a fake real guy, you'll have to pay for it....
Only, from what level do you have to pay taxes (or well, the person you
claim to be)? I would say level 4 or 5.

VrGr

David

*****************************************************************************
This is not a signature, I type it every mail again.

David "42" van Nederveen Meerkerk
Warande 128
3705 ZK Zeist
Netherlands
tel: +31 (0)30 6951487
D.N.M.vanNederveen@***.ruu.nl
http://www.fys.ruu.nl/~nederv1
Message no. 7
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:10:20 GMT
> It's been said that folks without SINs (like Shadowrunners) don't have
> the full legal rights someone with a SIN has.
>
> How far does that go? I'd assume that it's no problem for Lone Star to
> "illegally" search a SINless person's home, but could they just geek
someone
> without legal hassles?

You don't exist. Who's dead? Where's the record of a SIN that was in use
and isn't any more?

Being SINless is extremely bad news if you catch anyone's eye for any reason.
To be young, attractive, and SINless is extremely dangerous: rape is a crime
that only happens to 'real people'. If you want to report a crime, the victim
better have a SIN. Ditto murder, robbery, arson, extortion...

> Also, how does a SINless person get a SIN?

Ask nicely and apply for 'probationary citizenship'. Of course, for a
shadowrunner that means attention, examination, background checks...
Or buy a fake ID of the rating you can afford, and be careful what
checks are carried out on it. Rating-8 is almost unbreakable, but you
can live a long time on a 20kY Rating-4 false SIN.

> I ask because in my game, there's a large SINless Homeless problem - and
> the corps will be trying to round them up for use as essentially slave
> labor. Can they do that? (Well, sure they _can_ but will they take heat
> for it if it got out?)

Show me a citizen who filed a complaint. Do these SINless people pay any
taxes? :) Do they vote? Then why would anyone who matters care one jot
about them?

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 8
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 06:25:00 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, Rick Jones wispered:



>How far does that go? I'd assume that it's no problem for Lone Star to
>"illegally" search a SINless person's home, but could they just geek someone
>without legal hassles?
>
Yes. Having no SIN means you do not exist as far as the gov and law
are concerned. You have NO rights. Even the right to life. That
does not mean you can break the law. If they catch you, you do not
get a trial or anything else because of the fact that no one can
verify that you exist.

>Also, how does a SINless person get a SIN?
>
If you have a legal residence, you apply for one. If not, too bad.

>I ask because in my game, there's a large SINless Homeless problem - and
>the corps will be trying to round them up for use as essentially slave
>labor. Can they do that? (Well, sure they _can_ but will they take heat
>for it if it got out?)
>
Yes they can do it. And no, they will take no LEGAL heat for it. But
if it got out to the press, then the human activists and such would
bring bad PR to the corp in question, forcing them to either let the
labor go, or give them SINs, and thus a fare wage, benefits, etc.



-------------------------------------------------------------
Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever God they
follow will smile upon them.
I waltz through the Shadows with my Gods, and I lead!!
-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:53:55 +1100 (EST)
>Yes. Having no SIN means you do not exist as far as the gov and law
>are concerned. You have NO rights. Even the right to life. That
>does not mean you can break the law. If they catch you, you do not
>get a trial or anything else because of the fact that no one can
>verify that you exist.

This is NOT true... you are still a person, and under UCAS law, you have
certain "inalienable human rights"! What you lack are the extra rights
extended to a citizen...

You break the law, you get caught. The cops don't gun you down (how do
they KNOW you're SINless, anyway?). You get a trial (you also get a SIN
assigned to you).

Also... SINless doesn't mean you don't exisit... lots of corporators are
SINless by American standards (though they are in corporate databases
instead).


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 10
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:20:29 +0100
Robert Watkins said on 17 Jan 96...

> You break the law, you get caught. The cops don't gun you down (how do
> they KNOW you're SINless, anyway?).

That's sort of like the situation in this country right now -- if you're
a foreigner (i.e. don't have the Dutch nationality), the police may check
your papers any time they feel like doing so, but if you have a Dutch
passport they can only do that in certain places, like at your place of
work, in public transport, etc.
The question I immediately came up with is, how do you tell a foreigner
from a non-foreigner?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Iedereen gelooft wel ergens in, in God of in het 8 Uur Journaal.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:02:37 +1100 (EST)
>The question I immediately came up with is, how do you tell a foreigner
>from a non-foreigner?

Clothes, backpacks, and the American acent?


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 12
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:44:45 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, The Shadowdancer wrote:

> Yes. Having no SIN means you do not exist as far as the gov and law
> are concerned. You have NO rights. Even the right to life. That
> does not mean you can break the law. If they catch you, you do not
> get a trial or anything else because of the fact that no one can
> verify that you exist.

At this point I must disagree. If the police catch you up to no
good, they will arrest you. When they discover that you have no ID, they
will issue you a brand-spanking new SIN, complete with brand new criminal
record attached. They won't just geek you and dump you in the garbage,
unless maybe you're a cop-killer or child-molester. Then having no SIN
means you're fair game.
For more info on the issue of SINs to SINless detainees, check
out the Lone Star Sourcebook.

Marc
Message no. 13
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:57:33 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >The question I immediately came up with is, how do you tell a foreigner
> >from a non-foreigner?
>
> Clothes, backpacks, and the American acent?

The look of rapt confusion and the camera?

Marc
Message no. 14
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:15:59 -0600
How can you get a SIN if you're SINless? I would say...

1) Die. I know that the dead get one assigned to them. Can't say I like
that one too much so...
2) Forge or have one forged. Always a bonus to have a few of those. The
"fake ID" necessary for all sorts of high school (and early collegiate)
entertainment. Easy to do, but just isn't the real deal.
3) Get arrested. Merry Christmas, you're in the Lone Star database!
4) Apply for one. It'd be just like applying for a SSN here in the US or
any of the other international counterparts to the SSN. Since it would be
difficult to prove you are were born in-country (hospitals issue SINs at
birth) you would probably have to go through the whole naturalization
process. In a word, UGH.

That's about it as far as I can figure. Now the question becomes, what does
having a SIN allow you to do that you can't already do?

For our campaign it means being able to buy legal stuff without paying for
the street value markup. Some things (like ammo) you just don't want
attached to your name, so you drop the few extra nuyen. But it's nice to be
able to Dikote a long coat at cost, eh? We all know you'd be doing it just
for the extra shimmer and rain protection tho.

It gives you access to things that normal people have access to without all
the added hassle. Like decent hotel rooms, travel (from train to
suborbital), real bank accounts, corporate stock, HEALTH CARE, and much
more. It's always easier to do things if you are part of the status quo.

------------------------------------------------------------
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/// ///// /// /// /// /////// ////// //////
// ///// /// /// //////// /// /// /// ////// ///////
/ ///// /// //////// /// /// ////// ////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
------------------------------------------------------------
Bob "TopCat" Ooton <topcat@******.net>
------------------------------------------------------------
"Outside they are gathering and their fangs are bared, for
the bigger your fangs, the bigger your share."
-- Sol Invictus "Here Am I"
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 04:40:47 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, Robert Watkins wispered:

>>Yes. Having no SIN means you do not exist as far as the gov and law
>>are concerned. You have NO rights. Even the right to life. That
>>does not mean you can break the law. If they catch you, you do not
>>get a trial or anything else because of the fact that no one can
>>verify that you exist.
>
>This is NOT true... you are still a person, and under UCAS law, you have
>certain "inalienable human rights"! What you lack are the extra rights
>extended to a citizen...
>
The UCAS is using a variation of the old US constitution. Both of
them ONLY extend to citizens of the respective countries. If you are
not a citizen, you have NO rights.

>You break the law, you get caught. The cops don't gun you down (how do
>they KNOW you're SINless, anyway?). You get a trial (you also get a SIN
>assigned to you).
>
Sorry, I was misleading. Lone Star will gun you down. Knight Errant
will assign you a SIN to try you. So will FedPols. Remember, LS are
still the " good ol' boys", not real cops.

How they know if you are SINless or not? They ask for ID. Real
simple.
>Also... SINless doesn't mean you don't exisit... lots of corporators are
>SINless by American standards (though they are in corporate databases
>instead).
>
SINs are universal, similar to the nuyen. But SINs have gotten better
acceptence. The only difference between a corp SIN and a National SIN
is number and letter placement.


-------------------------------------------------------------
Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever God they
follow will smile upon them.
I waltz through the Shadows with my Gods, and I lead!!
-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Message no. 16
From: "Sedah Drol" <CCRODRIG@****.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:01:23 EST
> Robert Watkins said on 17 Jan 96...
>
> > You break the law, you get caught. The cops don't gun you down (how do
> > they KNOW you're SINless, anyway?).
>
> That's sort of like the situation in this country right now -- if you're
> a foreigner (i.e. don't have the Dutch nationality), the police may check
> your papers any time they feel like doing so, but if you have a Dutch
> passport they can only do that in certain places, like at your place of
> work, in public transport, etc.
> The question I immediately came up with is, how do you tell a foreigner
> from a non-foreigner?
They are usually the ones taking pictures of common everyday things.
That most people no longer really notice. Plus I would assume that
they could just ask you are you a citizen or not.
---Sedah Drol
Message no. 17
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:57:52 +1100 (EST)
>The UCAS is using a variation of the old US constitution. Both of
>them ONLY extend to citizens of the respective countries. If you are
>not a citizen, you have NO rights.

So a cop can shoot a tourist, uh? Gee... that must be why Florida is so
dangerous.

Think 'bout what you just said.

>Sorry, I was misleading. Lone Star will gun you down. Knight Errant
>will assign you a SIN to try you. So will FedPols. Remember, LS are
>still the " good ol' boys", not real cops.
>

LS is not the "good ol' boys" as much as they used to be. At least not
for their law enforcement branch (their private security arm is still
fairly red-neckish). You don't win major municipal contracts without the
councilmen hiring you being able to be re-elected, and that kind of
behaviour looks bad on the scream-sheets.

>How they know if you are SINless or not? They ask for ID. Real
>simple.

*shrug* They gotta catch you first... also, if they've caught you,
they'll just take you away and charge you. Being SINless in and off
itself is not a crime.

>>Also... SINless doesn't mean you don't exisit... lots of corporators are
>>SINless by American standards (though they are in corporate databases
>>instead).
>>
>SINs are universal, similar to the nuyen. But SINs have gotten better
>acceptence. The only difference between a corp SIN and a National SIN
>is number and letter placement.

Nope. A SIN is a pubically accessible database on YOU. Corps don't have
the same kind of thing. And not all countries hand them out, either.




--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 18
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:45:03 +0100
The Shadowdancer said on 18 Jan 96...

> The UCAS is using a variation of the old US constitution. Both of
> them ONLY extend to citizens of the respective countries. If you are
> not a citizen, you have NO rights.

What kind of bullshit is that? You're saying, that if I were to get on a
plane to the US today, anything could happen to me and I'd have no rights
whatsoever because I have a Dutch passport instead of an American one?
At the very least I think the basic human rights as defined by the UN
apply to me, which means I do have the right not get get beaten up...

> >You break the law, you get caught. The cops don't gun you down (how do
> >they KNOW you're SINless, anyway?). You get a trial (you also get a SIN
> >assigned to you).
> >
> Sorry, I was misleading. Lone Star will gun you down. Knight Errant
> will assign you a SIN to try you. So will FedPols. Remember, LS are
> still the " good ol' boys", not real cops.

KE will assign you a SIN? You've turned it upside-down haven't you? LS is
a corp that has been hired to do policework, KE is (in Seattle at least)
just another security provider. LS has to stick to the law because they
have to uphold it by contract with the Seattle Metroplex. KE has to uphold
no laws by contract with anyone, it just has to stick to them while not on
their own turf.

> SINs are universal, similar to the nuyen. But SINs have gotten better
> acceptence. The only difference between a corp SIN and a National SIN
> is number and letter placement.

The way I see it, SINs aren't "universal" as you put it. A lot of
countries issue them, or something similar to them, but I don't think
every place on earth does. Especially corps don't need to stick to this if
they don't want to, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So wasteful. So foolish.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 19
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:45:03 +0100
Sedah Drol said on 18 Jan 96...

> > That's sort of like the situation in this country right now -- if you're
> > a foreigner (i.e. don't have the Dutch nationality), the police may check
> > your papers any time they feel like doing so, but if you have a Dutch
> > passport they can only do that in certain places, like at your place of
> > work, in public transport, etc.
> > The question I immediately came up with is, how do you tell a foreigner
> > from a non-foreigner?
> They are usually the ones taking pictures of common everyday things.
> That most people no longer really notice. Plus I would assume that
> they could just ask you are you a citizen or not.

You're all seeing it wrong. I know a lot of it was joking, but what it is
aimed at is illegal workers. Asking if you're a citizen boils down to
having your ID checked, which is not allowed except as I said above;
however if you're a foreigner, your ID may be checked at any time.
So how can you _see_ if someone doesn't have a Dutch passport? By their
skin color? By their accent? Because they don't speak Dutch? None of them
works because there's people fitting all those things who _are_ citizens...

Granted, in 2050+ I don't think there'd be so much trouble about all this,
with megacorps and all.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So wasteful. So foolish.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 20
From: Rick Jones <rick@******.COM>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:34:54 -0600 (CST)
Gurth wrote:
> What kind of bullshit is that? You're saying, that if I were to get on a
> plane to the US today, anything could happen to me and I'd have no rights
> whatsoever because I have a Dutch passport instead of an American one?
> At the very least I think the basic human rights as defined by the UN
> apply to me, which means I do have the right not get get beaten up...

Presumably, when a Dutch person enters the UCAS, his passport carries the
equivalent of a SIN. On the other hand, when someone from Aztlan gets
over the wall, crosses the minefields and gets past the Blood Spirits,
they don't have a SIN until they apply as a political refugee. And until
he has a SIN, he's outa luck.

--
Rick Jones Usenet is a way of being annoyed by people you
rick@******.com otherwise never would have met.
Meyrick@***.com -- John J. Kinyon
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/
Message no. 21
From: Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:33:35 -0500 (EST)
When someone comes in from another country, they are in a kind of legal
limbo. MOst of their protectionm comes from the treaties between
countries. For example, if a couple is married in Japan and then has the
honeymoon in Disney World in Florida, they are still considered married.
That law of Japan still carries over. From most countries, they could
also get divoced here, or vice versa (the Tijuana quicki divorce:)
You can't beat up tourists here and get away with it because it's illegal
to beat up ANY person in the US. Now they might have trouble suing in
civil court, but that's a different story.


Slovotsky's Law #22

Never date a woman with a
brother named Nunzio.
Message no. 22
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 18:30:33 -0600
>What kind of bullshit is that? You're saying, that if I were to get on a
>plane to the US today, anything could happen to me and I'd have no rights
>whatsoever because I have a Dutch passport instead of an American one?
>At the very least I think the basic human rights as defined by the UN
>apply to me, which means I do have the right not get get beaten up...

You have a passport in this example. In order to get one you need ID in
your country. Which means the passport has the numbers from your ID's on
it. So, you have an ID.

The problem is when someone has no passport and comes into the country
illegally. They are then rounded up and deported to their country or (if
there is no known country) they are held by officials (usually military)
until they can get through the court system to get themselves started on teh
process of citizenship.

For an example of this, look at the camps full of Haitians in Florida.

>The way I see it, SINs aren't "universal" as you put it. A lot of
>countries issue them, or something similar to them, but I don't think
>every place on earth does. Especially corps don't need to stick to this if
>they don't want to, IMHO.

But corps have their own little versions of the SIN if they themselves do
not use it. So you'd be on that database instead. Personally, I'd feel
better off having a SIN from UCAS than a corp ID. Corps are much pickier as
to who you are and where you're going.

Also, as a member of an extraterritorial entity such as a corporation, you
would need a passport to venture outside the corporate holdings. So there's
the ID link.

------------------------------------------------------------
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Bob "TopCat" Ooton <topcat@******.net>
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"Outside they are gathering and their fangs are bared, for
the bigger your fangs, the bigger your share."
-- Sol Invictus "Here Am I"
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 13:36:42 +1100 (EST)
>The problem is when someone has no passport and comes into the country
>illegally. They are then rounded up and deported to their country or (if
>there is no known country) they are held by officials (usually military)
>until they can get through the court system to get themselves started on teh
>process of citizenship.

Yeah, but the cops can't just walk in and shoot them, which is what was
being STATED (not even implied) before. Just because they aren't
citizens, and they are there illegally, doesn't mean they don't have
rights.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 24
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 07:26:57 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, "Gurth" wispered:

>The Shadowdancer said on 18 Jan 96...
>
>> The UCAS is using a variation of the old US constitution. Both of
>> them ONLY extend to citizens of the respective countries. If you are
>> not a citizen, you have NO rights.
>
>What kind of bullshit is that? You're saying, that if I were to get on a
>plane to the US today, anything could happen to me and I'd have no rights
>whatsoever because I have a Dutch passport instead of an American one?
>At the very least I think the basic human rights as defined by the UN
>apply to me, which means I do have the right not get get beaten up...
>
As I have just had to say, visas and passports extend temorary
citizenship for the duration of your visit.


>> >You break the law, you get caught. The cops don't gun you down (how do
>> >they KNOW you're SINless, anyway?). You get a trial (you also get a SIN
>> >assigned to you).
>> >
>> Sorry, I was misleading. Lone Star will gun you down. Knight Errant
>> will assign you a SIN to try you. So will FedPols. Remember, LS are
>> still the " good ol' boys", not real cops.
>
>KE will assign you a SIN? You've turned it upside-down haven't you? LS is
>a corp that has been hired to do policework, KE is (in Seattle at least)
>just another security provider. LS has to stick to the law because they
>have to uphold it by contract with the Seattle Metroplex. KE has to uphold
>no laws by contract with anyone, it just has to stick to them while not on
>their own turf.
>
Yes. KE will give you a SIN in the areas they are policeing. Plus,
most KE security do not have orders to shoot first, while LS security
does. KE will try to "apprehend" you first, then will turn you over
to the local cops, provided the company does not have other ideas.

And "law providers" only stick to the law when it suites them. They
are, after all, still corps. If they can get away with geeking
someone, they will. Let's see, found DOA, shot while trying to
exscape, resisting with deadly force, all are viable and used excuses
for a dead criminal.

>> SINs are universal, similar to the nuyen. But SINs have gotten better
>> acceptence. The only difference between a corp SIN and a National SIN
>> is number and letter placement.
>
>The way I see it, SINs aren't "universal" as you put it. A lot of
>countries issue them, or something similar to them, but I don't think
>every place on earth does. Especially corps don't need to stick to this if
>they don't want to, IMHO.
>
Even corps issue them. Read "Just Compensation".


-------------------------------------------------------------
Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever God they
follow will smile upon them.
I waltz through the Shadows with my Gods, and I lead!!
-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Message no. 25
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 07:26:50 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, Robert Watkins wispered:

>>The UCAS is using a variation of the old US constitution. Both of
>>them ONLY extend to citizens of the respective countries. If you are
>>not a citizen, you have NO rights.
>
>So a cop can shoot a tourist, uh? Gee... that must be why Florida is so
>dangerous.
>
>Think 'bout what you just said.
>
I have. Tourists have visas and passports, which extend temporary
citizenship for the duration of the visit.

>>Sorry, I was misleading. Lone Star will gun you down. Knight Errant
>>will assign you a SIN to try you. So will FedPols. Remember, LS are
>>still the " good ol' boys", not real cops.
>>
>
>LS is not the "good ol' boys" as much as they used to be. At least not
>for their law enforcement branch (their private security arm is still
>fairly red-neckish). You don't win major municipal contracts without the
>councilmen hiring you being able to be re-elected, and that kind of
>behaviour looks bad on the scream-sheets.
>
True, but if the local criminals are getting geeked, and there is no
way to trace who they are, then no one cares.

>>How they know if you are SINless or not? They ask for ID. Real
>>simple.
>
>*shrug* They gotta catch you first... also, if they've caught you,
>they'll just take you away and charge you. Being SINless in and off
>itself is not a crime.
>
No it is not.

>>>Also... SINless doesn't mean you don't exisit... lots of corporators are
>>>SINless by American standards (though they are in corporate databases
>>>instead).
>>>
>>SINs are universal, similar to the nuyen. But SINs have gotten better
>>acceptence. The only difference between a corp SIN and a National SIN
>>is number and letter placement.
>
>Nope. A SIN is a pubically accessible database on YOU. Corps don't have
>the same kind of thing. And not all countries hand them out, either.
>
Yes they do. Read "Just Compensation".


-------------------------------------------------------------
Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever God they
follow will smile upon them.
I waltz through the Shadows with my Gods, and I lead!!
-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Message no. 26
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 07:27:02 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, Robert Watkins wispered:

>>The problem is when someone has no passport and comes into the country
>>illegally. They are then rounded up and deported to their country or (if
>>there is no known country) they are held by officials (usually military)
>>until they can get through the court system to get themselves started on teh
>>process of citizenship.
>
>Yeah, but the cops can't just walk in and shoot them, which is what was
>being STATED (not even implied) before. Just because they aren't
>citizens, and they are there illegally, doesn't mean they don't have
>rights.
>
>
But how many Mexicans do you personally know that were "deported".
While almost are, many are either chased back over the line or shot
outright. Remember, they can only charge you if they catch you.


----------------------------------------------------
Many people fear Death, saying it is the bitter end.
I say Death is just lonely, crying out for friend.
-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Message no. 27
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 18:54:33 +1100 (EST)
>>Yeah, but the cops can't just walk in and shoot them, which is what was
>>being STATED (not even implied) before. Just because they aren't
>>citizens, and they are there illegally, doesn't mean they don't have
>>rights.
>>
>>
>But how many Mexicans do you personally know that were "deported".
>While almost are, many are either chased back over the line or shot
>outright. Remember, they can only charge you if they catch you.

None. I live in Australia. And here, when refugees come in, we detain
them in camps for two,three years and THEN send them home. :)


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 28
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:07:29 +0100
TopCat said on 19 Jan 96...

> You have a passport in this example. In order to get one you need ID in
> your country. Which means the passport has the numbers from your ID's on
> it. So, you have an ID.

Yes, but the way Shadowdancer (I think it was) said it, it meant that
having an ID or not doesn't matter as long as it's not an American one.
Any foreign citizen was fair game the way he wrote it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We need to, like, hire some money.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 29
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:07:29 +0100
The Shadowdancer said on 20 Jan 96...

> Yes. KE will give you a SIN in the areas they are policeing. Plus,
> most KE security do not have orders to shoot first, while LS security
> does. KE will try to "apprehend" you first, then will turn you over
> to the local cops, provided the company does not have other ideas.

So you're saying that Lone Star shoots anyone in sight and then arrests
the survivors? Makes me wonder how they managed to hold the Seattle police
contract for so long...
Even though politicians may not be exactly like the ones walking around in
civilized countries today, I still think they wouldn't have the people who
elected them get gunned down by the corp they hired to protect those
people from crime...

> And "law providers" only stick to the law when it suites them. They
> are, after all, still corps. If they can get away with geeking
> someone, they will. Let's see, found DOA, shot while trying to
> exscape, resisting with deadly force, all are viable and used excuses
> for a dead criminal.

I still disagree. Anyone can do this, and I see private security providers
pull such tricks sooner than Lone Star. I'm not saying Lone Star doesn't
do things that way, I'm saying that KE etc. will likely do these things
more than LS will. The reason being that the public thinks of LS as "the
police," while they think of KE as "a security firm." Most corps act the
way they do in public because bad public relations is hell on the sales.

> >The way I see it, SINs aren't "universal" as you put it. A lot of
> >countries issue them, or something similar to them, but I don't think
> >every place on earth does. Especially corps don't need to stick to this if
> >they don't want to, IMHO.
> >
> Even corps issue them. Read "Just Compensation".

I know that. I also know that they don't _have_to_ if they don't want to.
There's a difference there, you know...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We need to, like, hire some money.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 30
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*****.com>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:22:31 -0700
>> You have a passport in this example. In order to get one you need ID in
>> your country. Which means the passport has the numbers from your ID's on
>> it. So, you have an ID.
>
>Yes, but the way Shadowdancer (I think it was) said it, it meant that
>having an ID or not doesn't matter as long as it's not an American one.
>Any foreign citizen was fair game the way he wrote it...
>
Corporate officals could be considered foreign citizen's could they not? I
doubt someone like Aztech would appreciate there ppl getting geeked by Lone
Star
Owl
Shane Courtrille
hardware@*****.com
http://www.oanet.com/homepage/hardware/index.htm (Check it out...)
___ ___ ___ ___ ___
<*,*> <*,*> <x,x> <*,*> (o,o)
[`-'] [`S'] >>>>>>> =^`-'^= {`"'}
-"-"- -"-"- <<<<<<< "
" -"-"-
Owl Super Owl RoadKill Owl Flying Owl ME!!!
Message no. 31
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 09:13:16 GMT
> >The problem is when someone has no passport and comes into the country
> >illegally. They are then rounded up and deported to their country or (if
> >there is no known country) they are held by officials (usually military)
> >until they can get through the court system to get themselves started on teh
> >process of citizenship.
>
> Yeah, but the cops can't just walk in and shoot them, which is what was
> being STATED (not even implied) before. Just because they aren't
> citizens, and they are there illegally, doesn't mean they don't have
> rights.

But who enforces those rights? When a SINless individual is found with a
bad case of death, for instance, whose job is it to find out who they are
and where they're from and who killed them?

Lone Star are a commercial organisation whose remit is to provide law
enforcement and protection for the citizens of Seattle. If you're not
a citizen, you're not their problem. End of story. Dead body? No SIN?
Not a dead citizen, therefore it doesn't register in the crime statistics,
therefore any effort diverted to investigating it is wasted resources that
aren't contributing to profit.

Of course, there is the issue of "how did I know he had a SIN"... this
sort of thing is far from common in most areas. On the other hand, it
goes some way to explaining the state of near-war in the Barrens: a
virtual free-fire zone for the police, with the residents returning the
compliment.

But then parts of my campaign are very dark indeed. Opinions may differ.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 32
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:25:37 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, Robert Watkins wispered:


>>But how many Mexicans do you personally know that were "deported".
>>While almost are, many are either chased back over the line or shot
>>outright. Remember, they can only charge you if they catch you.
>
>None. I live in Australia. And here, when refugees come in, we detain
>them in camps for two,three years and THEN send them home. :)
>
OUCH! Remind me to get my passport before going Downunder. <BG>


-------------------------------------------------------------
Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever God they
follow will smile upon them.
I waltz through the Shadows with my Gods, and I lead!!
-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Message no. 33
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:25:41 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, "Gurth" wispered:

>TopCat said on 19 Jan 96...
>
>> You have a passport in this example. In order to get one you need ID in
>> your country. Which means the passport has the numbers from your ID's on
>> it. So, you have an ID.
>
>Yes, but the way Shadowdancer (I think it was) said it, it meant that
>having an ID or not doesn't matter as long as it's not an American one.
>Any foreign citizen was fair game the way he wrote it...
>
If that is how it came out, then I apologize. I was meaning if there
was no legal ID, like a passport. Sorry.

----------------------------------------------------
Many people fear Death, saying it is the bitter end.
I say Death is just lonely, crying out for friend.
-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Message no. 34
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 21:38:00 -0500 (EST)
On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, The Shadowdancer wrote:

> But how many Mexicans do you personally know that were "deported".
> While almost are, many are either chased back over the line or shot
> outright. Remember, they can only charge you if they catch you.

OK, now you're mixing your examples. What exactly is your
point? Are you saying that LS are mangy, trigger-happy dogs? Sure, I'll
go with that. Are you saying that not having is reason enough for them
to open fire? No. That would not follow at all.
There's a difference between actively getting caught running the
border and being a SINless bum living in an abandoned warehouse. You
keep saying that LS will geek you if you don't have a SIN, which is
bullshit. You say that they'll shoot first and ask questions later. If
they did, how the hell would they know whether or not you had a SIN? Why
risk blowing away some innocent suit? It's bad PR.
The situation is simple. If you get picked up for some minor
infraction, LS, KE, Fedpol, or NYPD Inc. will assign you a brand new SIN
to go with your brand new criminal record. That SIN will stick with you
until you ditch it (fake your own death, get a decker friend to vaproize
all mention of your existence, whatever).
If you get scoped by the cops while in the act of commiting a
major crime, of course they're more likely to use deadly force. Of
course they may be tempted to do more evil stuff to you if you don't have
a SIN, but that's all *after* they catch you. Not having a SIN doesn't
mean that you need to flee in terror every time you see a squad-car.

Marc
Message no. 35
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 03:02:52 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, Marc A Renouf wispered:



> There's a difference between actively getting caught running the
>border and being a SINless bum living in an abandoned warehouse. You
>keep saying that LS will geek you if you don't have a SIN, which is
>bullshit. You say that they'll shoot first and ask questions later. If
>they did, how the hell would they know whether or not you had a SIN? Why
>risk blowing away some innocent suit? It's bad PR.
No, no, no. As what usually happens, someone tries to explain with an
example and then someone else misinterpretes the example. No, not
haveing a SIN is not illegal. I never said that. But not having a
SIN and commiting a crime will cause a very bad case of death. LS
will not geek someone for not having a SIN, but they have been known
to do so with criminals that do not possess SINs. I believe the
example of no SIN came into play with foriegners. And as was stated,
they have rights under our constitution based on the fact that
passports and visas extend tempory citizenship for the duration of the
visit. And if you do not have a SIN, then you cannot have a passport
or visa. So this whole track is moot.

> The situation is simple. If you get picked up for some minor
>infraction, LS, KE, Fedpol, or NYPD Inc. will assign you a brand new SIN
>to go with your brand new criminal record. That SIN will stick with you
>until you ditch it (fake your own death, get a decker friend to vaproize
>all mention of your existence, whatever).
> If you get scoped by the cops while in the act of commiting a
>major crime, of course they're more likely to use deadly force. Of
>course they may be tempted to do more evil stuff to you if you don't have
>a SIN, but that's all *after* they catch you. Not having a SIN doesn't
>mean that you need to flee in terror every time you see a squad-car.
>
The whole idea was not necesarily that LS would geek you for a minor
crime, but the fact that if CRIME in general ( a broad catagory ) is
being committed, and you do not have a SIN, you have no rights. No
right to a lawyer, no right to a speedy trial, etc. And the fact that
noone can trace you, your chances of getting geeked by these "law
enforcment agencies" greatly increases.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever God they
follow will smile upon them.
I waltz through the Shadows with my Gods, and I lead!!
-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Message no. 36
From: gilean@****.muscanet.com (Kurt Montgomery)
Subject: Re: SINS and rights
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 20:11:41 -0600
>The problem is when someone has no passport and comes into the country
>illegally. They are then rounded up and deported to their country or (if
>there is no known country) they are held by officials (usually military)
>until they can get through the court system to get themselves started on teh
>process of citizenship.
I hate to burst your bubble, but if I were to illegally cross the border
from Mexico to America (ie. "comming into the country illegally"), I would
still be afforded the rights of basic humans. While in the United States, I
would have the rights guarantied in the Constitution such as the right to a
speedy trial, and the right to protection from cruel and unusual
punishments. The Constitution protects all those within the borders of the
United States, not just citizens.
--Kurt Montgomery
------------------------------------------------
"Where a rat can go, two Kender will be." -Human Proverb
(Rat, Two, Kender, Will, and Human are all regestered
trademarks of T$R incorperated)

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