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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Daniel Paddock <D_PADDOCK@****.LVC.EDU>
Subject: SINs(for real this time)
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 23:49:54 -0400
Hello Shadowtypes,
First off I'll ask you to excuse my original SINs post. It should have
read Voodun in the Subject line.
Now for the real question:

Could someone out there on the net please send me an e-mail telling me
the ramnifications of having and not having a SIN are? I have not been able
to locate this information in any sourcebooks. Now its very possible that I
am just blind or stupid, so if the info is indeed in a sourcebook could
someone please tell me which one?

Thanks again
R. Daniel Paddock
Message no. 2
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINs(for real this time)
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 23:39:23 -0500
On Tue, 3 May 1994, Daniel Paddock wrote:

> Could someone out there on the net please send me an e-mail telling me
> the ramnifications of having and not having a SIN are? I have not been able
> to locate this information in any sourcebooks. Now its very possible that I
> am just blind or stupid, so if the info is indeed in a sourcebook could
> someone please tell me which one?

Well, for sure you won't be able to use ANY government services.
Essentially, look at everywhere you use your social security number (for
U.S. people, of course), and then imagine that service being denied to
you if you didn't have one.

For example. You can't file taxes without a SSN. If you don't file
taxes, that's tax evasion.

Whoops...

Every college I'v ever seen uses your SSN. Driver's licenses. Consumer
credit.

Of course, in the Shadows, tax evasion isn't a ver big concern.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <jweste%smtp@******.HZEELAND.NL>
Subject: SINs(for real this time) - Reply
Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 10:13:39 +0200
> Could someone out there on the net please send me an e-mail
>telling me the ramnifications of having and not having a SIN are? I
>have not been able to locate this information in any sourcebooks. Now
>its very possible that I am just blind or stupid, so if the info is
>indeed in a sourcebook could someone please tell me which one?

ShadowBeat has a litle bit of info on SINs, mainly on SINners in the
shadows and non-SINners in the spotlights. I believe, if you have a SIN,
you have to pay huge amounts of tax (30% of your income or so), but only
on that income which is not covered by the monthly "lifestyle-payment."
How much that is, you tell me...



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Gurth + In this bright future +
+ (jweste%smtp@******.hzeeland.nl) + You can't forget your past +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Message no. 4
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: SINs(for real this time)
Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 13:55:10 -0700
The best two sourcebooks for information on the Whys and Hows of
SINs, and you *do* need to read them both, are the Neo-Anarchist's Guide
to Real Life and the Corporate Shadowfiles.
Then you have to interpret the information. An example is: You
are riding down the street on your Yamaha Rapier. You are SINless. You
get pulled over by a Star. He's gonna ask for your 'stik (Your Driver's
License and your Proof of Insurance are both on it) Don't have one?
Straight to jail, or maybe just a beating and confiscation of everything
you have of value on you if he's feeling nice tonight.
That's why an identity, *any* identity, is necessary. You could
*always* try to outrun the Star, but that's harder than it looks. Even
now it's nearly impossible, it'll be worse then. And nobody is gonna
care if he dusts you if you don't gots a SIN.
Message no. 5
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: SINs(for real this time)
Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 13:50:20 -0400
| The best two sourcebooks for information on the Whys and Hows of SINs,
| and you *do* need to read them both, are the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to
| Real Life and the Corporate Shadowfiles.

I don't feel these two are entirely realistic; in particular, I think
they badly over-estimate the amount of services you can't get without a
SIN. If there's any rule of the Shadowrun universe, it's the rule of the
free market -- where there's money, SIN or no SIN, there will be people
providing services to get it. Nor can I see the government refusing to
collect income tax just because they're not willing to give you services;
income will likely be taxed at the source for just this reason. If you
have a SIN and have been overcharged, you submit a tax return to try and
get a rebate.

- cks
[once again, this is a popular list topic. I don't suppose someone could
be convinced to dig the good posts on this out of the archives and set
them up as a FAQ?]
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: SINs(for real this time)
Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 09:00:40 +0930
> I don't feel these two are entirely realistic; in particular, I think
> they badly over-estimate the amount of services you can't get without a
> SIN. If there's any rule of the Shadowrun universe, it's the rule of the
> free market -- where there's money, SIN or no SIN, there will be people
> providing services to get it.

Ah, but you miss the point. No _legitimate_ service will really deal in
cash in 2050+. After all, credsticks are secure, and they are more
convienent. Illegimate services may deal in cash, but they'll be so much
more expensive. Certified credsticks is how most runners get around this
problem, but that's like carrying around cheques saying "pay to bearer"

> Nor can I see the government refusing to
> collect income tax just because they're not willing to give you services;

Now, how could they collect income tax if you don't have a SIN?? They
don't know about you.

> income will likely be taxed at the source for just this reason.
That's payroll tax, I believe. And anyone on a (taxed) payroll would have
a SIN, the same way as you need a Social Security number to officially work
in the States (here it's a Tax File Number you need).

> If you
> have a SIN and have been overcharged, you submit a tax return to try and
> get a rebate.
>
Well, yeah... but what makes you think you don't get taxed on your income
as well?? I can readily see a government taxing the same dollar twice or
more.

Anyway, the point of the above is that you can do almost nothing
legitimately without a SIN. Illegally... well, that's a whole different
kettle of fish.

> - cks

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.

Further Reading

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