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Message no. 1
From: David Post <caelric@****.COM>
Subject: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:00:29 -0800
>Try checking this against the Skill Ratings Table on p. 98-99 of BBB3.
>Your system seems to work ok for the Bachelors' level, but Skill of 8
>for a Ph.D, seems a bit much considering what FASA says a Skill Level
>of 8 is supposed to represent. In both Active and Knowledge skills,
>Level 8+ is supposed to be the very best, a "perfect" grasp of the
>skill in question, "unsurpassed" and "unparalleled" among others
who
>share that skill. In short, a skill level 8 in Physics, for example,
>shouldn't just be anyone with a Physics Ph.D, it should be a Stephen
>Hawking or a Roger Penrose.
>

Thats if you accept FASA levels of skills. Per the standard rules, a
character can start out with 6 in a skill (In fact, he can 6's in more than
one skill if he allocates his skill points.) So, if a starting character
can have a 6, doesn't 8 seem not enough above it to justify a PH.D?

Of course, there are many ways around this; one is limiting the staring
skill levels of characters. My thoughts are that this, for example
limiting starting characters to about a level of 4, except in one skill
that isd well justifed for being higher, and making a level of 10 or so
about equivalant to a PH.D, with Stephen Hawking being maybe a 15 or so...

The above gives more of a seperation between levels of skill, and means
only the most dedicated have the highest levels of skill. Also, this is my
take on the skill level table of pg 98-99 of SR3

Level Description

1 Scream sheet, basic level of knowledge, maybe stuff you learned from
the web
2 some knowledge of basic techniques
3 you can do it, but not all that well
4 basic college level/trade school level of knowledge...an LPN is a good
example (licensed practicioning nurse...one level below a registered nurse)
5 You know a good bit about the subject; can do it well
6 You possess a bachelors degree or equivalent in the
skill/knowledge...a registered nurse would fit here
7 Adavnced study in the subject
8 This is where I would put a Masters degree level of knowledge; or a
good sniper with rifles
10 This is a Ph.D level of knowledge
11+ Anything above here-recoignized genius in the field; Houdini would
have for example a 14 or so in stealth(escape artist)

Yes, I know this has been discussed before, I just want to put my two cents
in. I think it gives more of a distinction between someone who knows a
skill, and someone who is a master of a skill


Dave
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:52:43 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, David Post wrote:
/
/ Thats if you accept FASA levels of skills. Per the standard rules, a
/ character can start out with 6 in a skill (In fact, he can 6's in more than
/ one skill if he allocates his skill points.) So, if a starting character
/ can have a 6, doesn't 8 seem not enough above it to justify a PH.D?
/
/ Of course, there are many ways around this; one is limiting the staring
/ skill levels of characters. My thoughts are that this, for example
/ limiting starting characters to about a level of 4, except in one skill
/ that isd well justifed for being higher

What I like to do is limit starting character to one 6, two 5s, four 4s,
eight 3s, and so on. This is for skills only. With attributes I use the
rules per the book.

This fits with the flavor of my campaign, so it may not work for yours
or anyone elses. But I do recommend limiting starting skill levels (or
not) to fit the tone of your game :)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:54:05 -0500
<SNIP Skill levels>
I agree with David. I usually limit starting skills to perhaps only
one or two with a six. Most players have 1 6, 2 5's, and then
spread the rest of the points around.
And also folks the Ph.D skill level debate is kinda thin IMHO.
How do you compare a runner who has made his living with his
whole life with a pistol, to a trickshot artist, to a us marshal's
trainer? All might have skill of 6-8 by FASA's scale, even though
their methods and training would be differ vastly.
.
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Message no. 4
From: David Post <caelric@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:55:18 -0800
At 03:54 PM 1/13/99 -0500, you wrote:
><SNIP Skill levels>

>And also folks the Ph.D skill level debate is kinda thin IMHO.
>How do you compare a runner who has made his living with his
>whole life with a pistol, to a trickshot artist, to a us marshal's
>trainer? All might have skill of 6-8 by FASA's scale, even though
>their methods and training would be differ vastly.
>.

Yes, the methods and training all would be different, but the end result is
still a high skill level. But, I would put the person who has spent his
whole life as a trickshot artist at maybe a 10 skill level or so; this
puts them appreciably higher than is possible for a starting character, and
to me, makes more of a difference in skill gradiations. Of course, YMMV.

Dave
Message no. 5
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:12:05 -0500
>Yes, the methods and training all would be different, but the end
>result is
>still a high skill level. But, I would put the person who has spent
>his
>whole life as a trickshot artist at maybe a 10 skill level or so;
>this
>puts them appreciably higher than is possible for a starting
>character, and
>to me, makes more of a difference in skill gradiations. Of
>course, YMMV.

I see your point. But the for the trickshot example, I see it more of
him having specific specializations. He is very good, and routinely
does trick shots. He probably doesn't routinely get in firefights
and assassinate people, or train federal marshalls.
The base training would all be high, but the differences could be
repersented by specialization or roleplaying. Fasa's scale isn't
wide enough and breaks down at the high end.
IMHO of course.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 6
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:09:59 -0600
On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:54:05 -0500 Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
writes:
<SNIP>
>And also folks the Ph.D skill level debate is kinda thin IMHO.
>How do you compare a runner who has made his living with his
>whole life with a pistol, to a trickshot artist, to a us marshal's
>trainer? All might have skill of 6-8 by FASA's scale, even though
>their methods and training would be differ vastly.

It's a matter of level of competence, not a matter of how they achieved
that level. There are NOT going to be Martial Arts Grandmasters,
unrivaled masters of the trickshots, and Ph.D level characters running
around in the SHadows as strating characters ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 7
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:22:38 -0500
>It's a matter of level of competence, not a matter of how they
>achieved
>that level. There are NOT going to be Martial Arts
>Grandmasters,
>unrivaled masters of the trickshots, and Ph.D level characters
>running around in the SHadows as strating characters ...

Point. However although in general starting characters shouldn't
have that high skill levels, that doesn't mean they can't. It
depends entirely on the style of game you play. In the past I've
actually allowed a few high starting skill levels, if the character
had an excellent background that the skill fit with, and the person
wasn't a munchkin.
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Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:38:09 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, David Post wrote:
/
/ At 03:54 PM 1/13/99 -0500, you wrote:
/ ><SNIP Skill levels>
/
/ >And also folks the Ph.D skill level debate is kinda thin IMHO.
/ >How do you compare a runner who has made his living with his
/ >whole life with a pistol, to a trickshot artist, to a us marshal's
/ >trainer? All might have skill of 6-8 by FASA's scale, even though
/ >their methods and training would be differ vastly.
/
/ Yes, the methods and training all would be different, but the end result is
/ still a high skill level. But, I would put the person who has spent his
/ whole life as a trickshot artist at maybe a 10 skill level or so; this
/ puts them appreciably higher than is possible for a starting character, and
/ to me, makes more of a difference in skill gradiations. Of course, YMMV.

I just remembered the best way to limit high skill levels. Make the
player tell you how the character got their skill so high. You can
realistically come up with a reason for one high skill, maybe two. But
beyond that the player has to be pretty creative (remember, it has to
be *realistic*). If the player can come up with a solid background
that has realistic reasons for high skill levels then that's fine with
me. Usually such a background has a wealth of GM story material.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 9
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: AW: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:53:56 +0100
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]Im
> Auftrag von David Buehrer
> Gesendet am: Mittwoch, 13. Januar 1999 2153
> An: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Betreff: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)

<snip>

> What I like to do is limit starting character to one 6, two 5s, four 4s,
> eight 3s, and so on. This is for skills only. With attributes I use the
> rules per the book.
>
> This fits with the flavor of my campaign, so it may not work for yours
> or anyone elses. But I do recommend limiting starting skill levels (or
> not) to fit the tone of your game :)

Yep, I use skill-limit of 5 with exceptions for a good explanation of
higher ratings by the characters story. For Attributes I limited
Intelligence and Quickness to 5 or lower; this depends on the type of
character. I never understood why those Sams had to earn the money by
fighting while being super-intelligent. I know that this is a problem
of Intelligence being a Über-Attribute.

ArcLight
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
ICQ 14322211
Message no. 10
From: Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:42:45 EST
>>Try checking this against the Skill Ratings Table on p. 98-99 of
>>BBB3. Your system seems to work ok for the Bachelors' level, but
>>Skill of 8 for a Ph.D, seems a bit much considering what FASA says >>a
Skill Level of 8 is supposed to represent. In both Active and
>>Knowledge skills, Level 8+ is supposed to be the very best, a
>>"perfect" grasp of the skill in question, "unsurpassed" and
>>"unparalleled" among others who share that skill. In short, a skill
>>level 8 in Physics, for example, shouldn't just be anyone with a
>>Physics Ph.D, it should be a Stephen Hawking or a Roger Penrose.
>
>Thats if you accept FASA levels of skills. Per the standard rules, a
>character can start out with 6 in a skill (In fact, he can 6's in >more
than one skill if he allocates his skill points.) So, if a >starting
character can have a 6, doesn't 8 seem not enough above it >to justify a
PH.D?
>
>Of course, there are many ways around this; one is limiting the
>staring skill levels of characters. My thoughts are that this, for
>example limiting starting characters to about a level of 4, except >in
one skill that isd well justifed for being higher, and making a >level
of 10 or so about equivalant to a PH.D, with Stephen Hawking >being
maybe a 15 or so...
>
>The above gives more of a seperation between levels of skill, and
>means only the most dedicated have the highest levels of skill. >Also,
this is my take on the skill level table of pg 98-99 of SR3
>
>Level Description
>
> 1 Scream sheet, basic level of knowledge, maybe stuff
>you learned from the web
> 2 some knowledge of basic techniques
> 3 you can do it, but not all that well
> 4 basic college level/trade school level of
>knowledge...an LPN is a good example (licensed practicioning
>nurse...one level below a registered nurse)
> 5 You know a good bit about the subject; can do it >well
> 6 You possess a bachelors degree or equivalent in the
>skill/knowledge...a registered nurse would fit here
> 7 Adavnced study in the subject
> 8 This is where I would put a Masters degree level of
>knowledge; or a good sniper with rifles
> 10 This is a Ph.D level of knowledge
> 11+ Anything above here-recoignized genius in the >field;
Houdini would have for example a 14 or so in stealth(escape >artist)
>
>Yes, I know this has been discussed before, I just want to put my >two
cents in. I think it gives more of a distinction between >someone who
knows a skill, and someone who is a master of a skill
>
>
>Dave
>
If I were useing the old 2nd ed rules I might agree with this
interpetation of the skill levels, but I'm not. Under the new 3rd ed
rules it becomes very dificult to get more than one 6 in a skill and
still have a character that can do what you want him to do. In fact
more than three 5's is very hard to pull off and three is pushing it.
Under this system fasa's stated equivalencies are quite sufficient.


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""^^
There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved
through a suitable application of high explosives.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 11
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:08:50 +1000
>>And also folks the Ph.D skill level debate is kinda thin IMHO.
>>How do you compare a runner who has made his living with his
>>whole life with a pistol, to a trickshot artist, to a us marshal's
>>trainer? All might have skill of 6-8 by FASA's scale, even though
>>their methods and training would be differ vastly.
>
>It's a matter of level of competence, not a matter of how they achieved
>that level. There are NOT going to be Martial Arts Grandmasters,
>unrivaled masters of the trickshots, and Ph.D level characters running
>around in the SHadows as strating characters ...

The Martial Arts grandmasters and so forth I agree with... but why not a
character with a PhD?

You could conceivably have a PhD by age 24... that's not out of the
question for Shadowrunners.

Lady Jestyr

"A true beanie should have a propellor on the top." -- Terry Pratchett
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -
Message no. 12
From: greg basa <demipop@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 03:18:11 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Munn +ADw-barnack+AEA-HOTMAIL.COM+AD4-
To: SHADOWRN+AEA-LISTPROC.ITRIBE.NET +ADw-SHADOWRN+AEA-LISTPROC.ITRIBE.NET+AD4-
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)


+AD4APgA+-Try checking this against the Skill Ratings Table on p. 98-99 of
+AD4APgA+-BBB3. Your system seems to work ok for the Bachelors' level, but
+AD4APgA+-Skill of 8 for a Ph.D, seems a bit much considering what FASA says +AD4APg-a
+AD4-Skill Level of 8 is supposed to represent. In both Active and
+AD4APgA+-Knowledge skills, Level 8 is supposed to be the very best, a
+AD4APgA+ACI-perfect+ACI- grasp of the skill in question, +ACI-unsurpassed+ACI- and
+AD4APgA+ACI-unparalleled+ACI- among others who share that skill. In short, a skill
+AD4APgA+-level 8 in Physics, for example, shouldn't just be anyone with a
+AD4APgA+-Physics Ph.D, it should be a Stephen Hawking or a Roger Penrose.
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg-Thats if you accept FASA levels of skills. Per the standard rules, a
+AD4APg-character can start out with 6 in a skill (In fact, he can 6's in +AD4-more
+AD4-than one skill if he allocates his skill points.) So, if a +AD4-starting
+AD4-character can have a 6, doesn't 8 seem not enough above it +AD4-to justify a
+AD4-PH.D?
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg-Of course, there are many ways around this+ADs- one is limiting the
+AD4APg-staring skill levels of characters. My thoughts are that this, for
+AD4APg-example limiting starting characters to about a level of 4, except +AD4-in
+AD4-one skill that isd well justifed for being higher, and making a +AD4-level
+AD4-of 10 or so about equivalant to a PH.D, with Stephen Hawking +AD4-being
+AD4-maybe a 15 or so...
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg-The above gives more of a seperation between levels of skill, and
+AD4APg-means only the most dedicated have the highest levels of skill. +AD4-Also,
+AD4-this is my take on the skill level table of pg 98-99 of SR3
+AD4APg-
+ADw-SNIP SKILL LEVEL CHART THINGIE+AD4-

+AD4APg-Yes, I know this has been discussed before, I just want to put my +AD4-two
+AD4-cents in. I think it gives more of a distinction between +AD4-someone who
+AD4-knows a skill, and someone who is a master of a skill
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg-Dave
+AD4APg-
+AD4-If I were useing the old 2nd ed rules I might agree with this
+AD4-interpetation of the skill levels, but I'm not. Under the new 3rd ed
+AD4-rules it becomes very dificult to get more than one 6 in a skill and
+AD4-still have a character that can do what you want him to do. In fact
+AD4-more than three 5's is very hard to pull off and three is pushing it.
+AD4-Under this system fasa's stated equivalencies are quite sufficient.
+AD4-


Well, you can get a character to start off with more than a few 6's, but
sometimes they tend to overspecialize in their jobs. And when they
overspecialize, they really overspecialize. I've created more than a few
characters who have at least 4 Skills at 6, and some of them are as deadly
as hell. It's all a matter of juggling the numbers just right. It's not
easy to +ACI-have a character do what you want him to do.+ACI- But it'd be
ludicrous to have a character that can do everything, so again, he has to
specialize. What screwed a lot of people up, I think was separating the
firearms skill into all of those different groups. Now sammy can't just
pick up that assault rifle and expect to use it perfectly.

What I like is that the attributes are closely linked to the skills, so I
tend to grab the B in attribute, then race straight to A for skills. Of
course, in this regard, mundane humans and D-metas get it easy, because they
still have 90,000 to spend (BTW, just how the hell do you spend 1,000,000
nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources+ACE-), which is substantial for a
well-balanced character, IMHO.

-----
Stand tall and shake the heavens.

Angelkiller 404

http://www.mindspring.com/+AH4-demipop/

ICQ: 2157053
Message no. 13
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 03:22:28 -0600
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:08:50 +1000 Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
writes:
<SNIP>
>>It's a matter of level of competence, not a matter of how they achieved
>>that level. There are NOT going to be Martial Arts Grandmasters,
>>unrivaled masters of the trickshots, and Ph.D level characters running
>>around in the SHadows as strating characters ...

>The Martial Arts grandmasters and so forth I agree with... but why not a
>character with a PhD?
>
>You could conceivably have a PhD by age 24... that's not out of the
>question for Shadowrunners.

Yes, it is possible, but do you think that Ph.D level
knowledge/competence is going to be common in the Shadows?

"Bob, you just got your Ph.D in Thaumaturgy from Texas A&M&M, what are
you going to do now?"
"I'm going to become a shadowrunner!"
"Isn't that FABulous?"

:)
--
D. Ghost (Who thinks FASA should have left Texas A&M's name alone. :)
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)
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Message no. 14
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:05:47 -0600
From: Josh Munn
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 10:43 PM

>If I were useing the old 2nd ed rules I might agree with this
>interpetation of the skill levels, but I'm not. Under the new
>3rd ed rules it becomes very dificult to get more than one 6 in
>a skill and still have a character that can do what you want him
>to do.

?????

I'm not quite sure what you're driving at here.

>In fact more than three 5's is very hard to pull off and three is
>pushing it. Under this system fasa's stated equivalencies are
>quite sufficient.

Yeah, but I don't intend to have my character be a "starting character"
for long. After you start developing the character, the skill level
chart in SR3 starts breaking down big-time.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 15
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:45:14 -0500
greg basa wrote:
> still have 90,000 to spend (BTW, just how the hell do you spend 1,000,000
> nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources!), which is substantial for a
> well-balanced character, IMHO.
>
How do you spend 1mY? Easy: a deck, cyberware, vehicles, donations to
a worthy cause. The main gripe *I* have with the 1mY is that 400k
frequently is just a little too little - 5 or 6 would do nicely, and
by the time you've spent that 5 or 6 out of the 1mY, you're left with
a big chunk of money that might not fit in with the character...

My last character needed 800k for a focus - the rest I blew on things
like a ruthenium-polymer covered bike (no cameras - all I could/wanted
to do was change the colour of the bike) and 60 months of prepaid
lifestyle... :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 16
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:09:04 -0500
At 02:45 PM 1/14/99 -0500, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
>greg basa wrote:
>> still have 90,000 to spend (BTW, just how the hell do you spend 1,000,000
>> nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources!), which is substantial for a
>> well-balanced character, IMHO.
>>
>How do you spend 1mY? Easy: a deck, cyberware, vehicles, donations to
>a worthy cause. The main gripe *I* have with the 1mY is that 400k
>frequently is just a little too little - 5 or 6 would do nicely, and
>by the time you've spent that 5 or 6 out of the 1mY, you're left with
>a big chunk of money that might not fit in with the character...
>
>My last character needed 800k for a focus - the rest I blew on things
>like a ruthenium-polymer covered bike (no cameras - all I could/wanted
>to do was change the colour of the bike) and 60 months of prepaid
>lifestyle... :-)
>
>James Ojaste
>
>

I have frequently had the same problem between 400K and 90K. I have had an
obscene number of characters that needed 200K or 150K to be _just_ right.
I usually end up tossing the extra to wind rather than put the character
out of whack from the concept.

-- Blair

------
Blair A. Monroe
Web Developer / Information Professional / Gamemaster
E-mail: bmonroe@******.fsu.edu
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~bmonroe/
Message no. 17
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:18:04 -0500
At 02:45 PM 1/14/99 , you wrote:
>greg basa wrote:
>> still have 90,000 to spend (BTW, just how the hell do you spend 1,000,000
>> nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources!), which is substantial for a
>> well-balanced character, IMHO.
>>
>How do you spend 1mY? Easy: a deck, cyberware, vehicles, donations to
>a worthy cause. The main gripe *I* have with the 1mY is that 400k
>frequently is just a little too little - 5 or 6 would do nicely, and
>by the time you've spent that 5 or 6 out of the 1mY, you're left with
>a big chunk of money that might not fit in with the character...

I've definitely found the same problem with 400k. That's one of the reasons
I liked the point system, being able to spread it out. For a good samurai
with the fun toys, 500k is a very nice target. 400k works, but you have to
spread it out more.

>My last character needed 800k for a focus - the rest I blew on things
>like a ruthenium-polymer covered bike (no cameras - all I could/wanted
>to do was change the colour of the bike) and 60 months of prepaid
>lifestyle... :-)

Stuff to spend 1 million on:

1) Get everything alphaware. Now available to starting characters,
guaranteed to suck up funds. And its always nice to have more essence.

2) Stash extra gear around the city, or even around other countries. Place
it in storage lockers in case you get your primary stash busted by the cops.

3) Secondary lifestyles. Take more than 2, take 6. Have hideouts and safe
houses all over town and in several other countries.

4) There's the always popular get 20 contacts. Pain for the GM to come up
with so many, but you can get a fairly deep web of contacts with that.

5) Fake SIN's. Personally I think one of the most overlooked items you can
buy. My last charcter, the ex Lone Star sniper, had a real SIN, 2 level 6
fakes, 3 level 4 fakes, and about 4 level 2 fakes. He worked as a private
eye, and it was extremely useful to have so many different aliases that
could be backed up with ID. Use them in conjunction with 3) above.

Sommers
Homepage here now!
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~sommers/shadowrun.htm
Message no. 18
From: Grifter13 <sids@*********.CA>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:15:10 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)


>greg basa wrote:
>> still have 90,000 to spend (BTW, just how the hell do you spend 1,000,000
>> nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources!), which is substantial for a
>> well-balanced character, IMHO.
>>
With my last character 1mY was not enough. After buying the necessities (all
of which were bought at the street price if it was cheaper), chrome (over
500,000 into just one arm :^), Decker stuff, a car (only 22,000y), middle
lifestyle, guns and ammo, I had enough to buy a phone, holster and throat
mic. I had a grand total of 12.75y left, I talked the GM into ignoring the
10% reduction.

Grifter13

Insert witty sig. line here, but please no ascii art.
Message no. 19
From: "Shaun E. Gilroy" <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:53:10 -0500
At 02:45 PM 1/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>greg basa wrote:
>> still have 90,000 to spend (BTW, just how the hell do you spend 1,000,000
>> nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources!), which is substantial for a
>> well-balanced character, IMHO.
>>
>How do you spend 1mY? Easy: a deck, cyberware, vehicles, donations to
>a worthy cause.

The problem is that, due to the rating-6/avail-8 restrictions on beginning
characters, you really can't blow your wad on a deck, cyberware and
vehicles without buying a -lot- of cheap stuff.

I play a decker that only burned 300k in his cyberdeck + software because
the avail ratings after the GM said: "go ahead and get the MCPC-7 deck",
even though he should have been restricted to a 6. That was all he -could-
dump into the deck.

You can never have too many contacts, SINs, and safehouses (with a spare
car for when your current ride 'breaks down'), though. ;)

I agree that 400,000 isn't enough, but 1,000,000 is generally too much.
There's just too wide a gap there.

>
>James Ojaste
>
Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corp.
Message no. 20
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:09:41 +1000
>>> still have 90,000 to spend (BTW, just how the hell do you spend 1,000,000
>>> nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources!), which is substantial for a
>>> well-balanced character, IMHO.
>>>
>>How do you spend 1mY? Easy: a deck, cyberware, vehicles, donations to
>>a worthy cause.
>
>The problem is that, due to the rating-6/avail-8 restrictions on beginning
>characters, you really can't blow your wad on a deck, cyberware and
>vehicles without buying a -lot- of cheap stuff.
>
>I play a decker that only burned 300k in his cyberdeck + software because
>the avail ratings after the GM said: "go ahead and get the MCPC-7 deck",
>even though he should have been restricted to a 6. That was all he -could-
>dump into the deck.

Even the starting decker archetypes in VR2.0 have MPCP-8 decks. Hmm. (Of
course, I don't tend to pay attention to starting availabilities since the
rule of thumb in our group is 'if it's reasonable and you can justify it,
you can have it'.

I'd consider a starting decker with an MPCP-8 deck [technically illegal]
less potentially unbalanced than a starting physad or mage with a rating 6
Weapon or Power focus [technically legal], anyway.

Lady Jestyr

"A true beanie should have a propellor on the top." -- Terry Pratchett
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -
Message no. 21
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:54:09 -0600
:I play a decker that only burned 300k in his cyberdeck + software because
:the avail ratings after the GM said: "go ahead and get the MCPC-7 deck",
:even though he should have been restricted to a 6. That was all
he -could-
:dump into the deck.

A) You can never have to many utilities, IMO. Plus a good programing
suite and comp (which ain't cheap, at big MP levels).
B) IMO, MPCP is not a rating / level- its a stat. It's like saying a
rigger can't buy a vehicle with a body over 6.

Mongoose
Message no. 22
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:55:01 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:09 PM 1/13/99 -0600, D.Ghost wrote:
>It's a matter of level of competence, not a matter of how they
achieved
>that level. There are NOT going to be Martial Arts Grandmasters,
>unrivaled masters of the trickshots, and Ph.D level characters
running
>around in the SHadows as strating characters ...

For a starting character to have very high levels in one or two
skills, they are going to be somewhat limited in their taking of other
skills. (This is especially true with the larger number of skills
under the SR3 rules.)

Now, even more so than in previous editions, it's important for a
shadowrunner to have a wide base of skills at at least a basic
competence. This means taking a lot of Level 2 and Level 3 skills,
which can rapidly use up the available skill points, even if the
higher priorites are assigned to skills. If the player instead chooses
to focus on being very good on a few skills, then they will have to be
lacking in other areas. Especially so if the player is looking for a
high level in a skill where the player has assigned a low to average
rating for the linked attribute. It's a Catch-22. If a player chooses
a high priority level for skills, the character's attributes will most
likely be lower, meaning high level skills will come at a premimum
price, and if the player chooses higher priority for attributes and
lower priority for skills, then the player has less skill points to
begin with.

What ends up happening, is that starting characters with high level
skills end up being Savants. Very good at only a few things, and
rather shabby in everything else.

(BTW: Earlier in this thread, some people expressed low opinions of
the Skill Ratings Chart in the BB3, feeling that labeling Level 8+ as
"World Class" and "Genius" was an exageration. That's perfectly
alright, but keep in mind that even if you see the Skill Ratings Chart
as flawed, it is still Canonical. Which listmember said that the only
thing all our games have in common is that we all built our house
rules atop the same rulebook?)

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 23
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:58:22 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:18 PM 1/14/99 -0500, Sommers wrote:
>I've definitely found the same problem with 400k. That's one of the
reasons
>I liked the point system, being able to spread it out. For a good
samurai
>with the fun toys, 500k is a very nice target. 400k works, but you
have to
>spread it out more.

But the second edition build-point system only gave you what, two more
starting nuyen choices than the priority system? (unless of course,
you took the time to interpolate nuyen values between the 5
build-point intervals the companion gave you)

It's not much of an improvement IMO.

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 24
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:54:09 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:09 PM 1/14/99 -0500, Blair wrote:
>>> still have 90,000 to spend (BTW, just how the hell do you spend
1,000,000
>>> nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources!)
<Snip>
>>The main gripe *I* have with the 1mY is that 400k
>>frequently is just a little too little - 5 or 6 would do nicely, and
>>by the time you've spent that 5 or 6 out of the 1mY, you're left
with
>>a big chunk of money that might not fit in with the character...
<<Snip>>
>I have frequently had the same problem between 400K and 90K. I have
had an
>obscene number of characters that needed 200K or 150K to be _just_
right.
>I usually end up tossing the extra to wind rather than put the
character
>out of whack from the concept.

If it helps any, back when Rob Boyle from FASA asked the list for a
wish list of what we wanted to see in the third edition version of the
Shadowrun Companion, I made a specific request that when they re-do
the buildpoint system, that they give us a _lot_ more choices for
starting character resource nuyen.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 25
From: EdgeWalker <EdgeWalker@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 02:27:45 -0000
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
To: <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 03:09 PM 1/14/99 -0500, Blair wrote:
>>>> still have 90,000 to spend (BTW, just how the hell do you spend
>1,000,000
>>>> nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources!)
><Snip>
Ever Played a Street Sam. with Wired 3?
500'000 at a pop a 1'000'000 nuyen comes in useful.
The Sam I have designed has 17'000 nuyen left after
most items are bought.

Just a thought.
Message no. 26
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:07:30 EST
In a message dated 99-01-14 03:24:46 EST, you write:

> (BTW, just how the hell do you spend 1,000,000
> nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources+ACE-), which is substantial for a
> well-balanced character, IMHO.

Quite easily, actually. Hot deck, and or custom built vehicles if your a
rigger for one. Lots of cyber for another. Come to think of it, I had a
charecter with a cranial cyberdeck, some other cyber, and some bioware, a
couple of other goodies, and I wound up having to say he wrote his utilites
for said deck myself cause he didnt have enough cash to pay for it all.
--
Starrngr -- Now with an UPDATED webpage:
Ranger HQ
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/starrngr/index.htm">;
HTTP://hometown.aol.com/starrngr/index.htm</A>;

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they call
you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 27
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:18:53 EST
In a message dated 1/15/99 12:09:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, Starrngr@***.COM
writes:

<< > (BTW, just how the hell do you spend 1,000,000
> nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources+ACE-), which is substantial for a
> well-balanced character, IMHO. >>

BIOWARE! BIOWARE! that stuff is (a) great and (b) costly!
Message no. 28
From: Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:21:53 -0500
On 1/15/99, at 12:07 AM, Micheal Feeney wrote:

>In a message dated 99-01-14 03:24:46 EST, you write:
>
>> (BTW, just how the hell do you spend 1,000,000
>> nuyen? I've NEVER gone A resources+ACE-), which is substantial for a
>> well-balanced character, IMHO.
>
>Quite easily, actually. Hot deck, and or custom built vehicles if your a
>rigger for one. Lots of cyber for another. Come to think of it, I had a
>charecter with a cranial cyberdeck, some other cyber, and some bioware, a
>couple of other goodies, and I wound up having to say he wrote his
utilites
>for said deck myself cause he didnt have enough cash to pay for it all.

No kidding.. as an experiment I abused the point system to see how badly
I could go over... I spent nearly 12Million Nuyen on the guy... Buy hey,
he's a large speedy tank.... If you're in to that sort of thing...
1Mil just isn't enough sometimes...




Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skill levels (Was Re: Converting Editions)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:23:58 +0100
According to Sommers, at 15:18 on 14 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> 4) There's the always popular get 20 contacts. Pain for the GM to come up
> with so many, but you can get a fairly deep web of contacts with that.

Or take a friend for life. I took a million for my decker character, built
a deck reasonably cheaply (DIY) and then bought most of the software (I
wasn't going to spend another 3 years writing programs), leaving me with a
lot of money left. So, a friend for life (which had been the first idea I
had for the character), and way too many electronics -- it's amazing how
fast you can spend a few hundred thousand if you buy simsense gear, for
example. Oh yeah, and an RV that's got a few quality factors applied to it
so that it cost me about 6000 nuyen :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kleiduivenmelker
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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