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Message no. 1
From: MKNABUSCH@******.BITNET
Subject: Skills
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 92 21:40:00 EDT
I *humblely* submit that I am not in a monty haul run.
My character just uses his brains. In fact, his highest skill
is a 7 in comp. He uses his karma to learn a variety of things.\
Most other skills rank in at three with a few higher or lower.
Michael Knabusch A.K.A. the Harlequin
Message no. 2
From: The Reverend <IH46@****.BITNET>
Subject: Skills
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 92 22:39:19 MDT
> I *humblely* submit that I am not in a monty haul run.
> My character just uses his brains. In fact, his highest skill
> is a 7 in comp. He uses his karma to learn a variety of things.\
> Most other skills rank in at three with a few higher or lower.
> Michael Knabusch A.K.A. the Harlequin
Hey, nothing wrong with a Joat! (jack of all trades). Having oddball
skills has saved my butt more than a couple times. The problem is
figuring out the break-even point (i.e. when is it cheaper to try to get
another skill, or when does the cost outweigh buying another level, and
when it's just easier to default (remember, 1 dot between quickness and
firearms (?))

---
The Reverend
"He told me of his strange foundation..."

Cthulhu in '92! Why vote for the lesser evil?
Looking for Alt.Cyberpunk.Chatsubo archives...e-mail if u have info!
Message no. 3
From: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Subject: skills
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 21:14:39 CET
I too personally favor role-playing, so much so that I would rather
make a "real" character in Shadowrun rather that some hardened mercenary
that so many of the game's characters seem based on. However, there is a place
for skills.
One of the points of RPGs is to pretend you're someone else. A good
campaign will involve both role-playing and game mechanics. Let's say that you
yourself have all the social graces of a psychotic pig, but you want to play
a smooth corporate talker. So you buy the appropriate social skills. Now when
you play, the GM should do some preliminary role-playing to set the tone. If
the PCs do something particularly brilliant (or incredibly stupid) the GM
should modify the roll or forego it entirely. However, if there is still some
question as to who did a better job, or if the GM wants to heighten the suspense
with a fake roll or two, then a roll should still be made.
One of my favorite situations was playing a foreruner of Jaez where we
needed to get into a small Zoo to steal some eggs. We followed the extremely
nerdy Zoologist and I came onto him and convinced him to give me a tour of the
place (my cover was that I was a UW Zoology student who just *loved* his work.
The roll represents the chance, however small, that one of the
characters involved is having a bad day. Interpreting bad die rolls is always
fun. It could happen that a PC comes up with a great line that unfortunately
turns out to be a pet peeve of the target NPC.
The point is that die rolls are not meant to replace role-playing, just
adding flavor to the game and a way of representing a character's abilities as
different from a players. Besides, without skills, A weak-willed, pushover GM
would agree to anything that a rabid group of players wanted ("sure, I'll give
you 100K Nuyen for folowing my wife"). It works both ways.

Well, I'm off like a bat, to the Scots

J Roberson
Message no. 4
From: BOSCHETM@********.BITNET
Subject: Skills
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 11:48:33 EST
Now I don't want to start an arguement, but has anyone noticed that
it is imposible to create some real people with ShadowRun's skill system?
Like me for instance! If ya want an example just ask.

Wildstar
alias Logan-5, Legion, The Master
me Michael Lee Boschet, Jr.

BoschetM@****.ipfw.indiana.edu
Message no. 5
From: Troy Hoskison <T.Hoskison@********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 20:32:27 BST
BoschetM@****.ipfw.indiana.edu wrote:-

>
> Now I don't want to start an arguement, but has anyone noticed that
> it is imposible to create some real people with ShadowRun's skill system?
> Like me for instance! If ya want an example just ask.
>
> Wildstar
> alias Logan-5, Legion, The Master
> me Michael Lee Boschet, Jr.
>
> BoschetM@****.ipfw.indiana.edu
>


The system does actually allow you to invent your own skills under the catogory
of Special Skills. You may notice that some of the contacts actually have speci
al skills.

Due to a complaint about my sig I have now opted for a shorter one.....


(!)
^^^^^ Constipation means never having to give a SHIT.
____/_0_0_\_____
|__|__|U_|__|__| If the world had piles they'd be in Wales.
|_|__|__|__|__||
|__|__|__|__|__| Troy Hoskion (t.hoskison@********.ac.uk)
|_|__|__|__|__|| or (92230282@********.ac.uk)
Wot No bog roll
Message no. 6
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: Skills
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 13:00:49 CDT
Reply-To: BOSCHETM%IPFWCVAX.bitnet@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl

How about a little explanation of exactly what you mean.

+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* History Major, Nebraska Weseleyan University *-* |
| Internet e-mail: csm2747@******.nebrwesleyan.edu Lincoln, Nebraska |
| |
|-> 12. A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down. <- |
| - from Murphy's Laws of Combat |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
Message no. 7
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 13:53:52 -0700
Michael Boschet,
Now I don't want to insult you, but many people have said the same thing to me
about themselves and many different game systems. My response has always been
"Let me see what you think you would look like." In every instance the player
had seriously overrated both their characteristics and skills. Now it might be
that your right (although I seriously doubt that), but I would need to see what
you think your stats would look like and then have to ask you many questions
about why you put them at those levels.
If you wish to follow up on this send me your stats through either public or
private mail, but be warned. I'll probably do brutal harm to your self-image.
Remember that the worst person to judge your abilities is yourself.
On the other hand is your talking about some exceptional individuals, remember
that the SR characater creations system makes beginning characters, not
experienced ones. That's what Karma's for.

See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
Message no. 8
From: "Mr. Enforcer" <M484443R@***.EDINBORO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 23:00:46 -0400
We did the same thang last summer, but the thing we did different was we made
up other people as characters. It came out unbiased, IMHO, but still people
used their own judgement on the creation. They weren't perfect, obviously, but
still were pretty close, if not funny.

There is one guy who we let hang around with us we'll call...Geoff.
He's the "I want to be the biggest baddest street sam there is" type. You
know him...the one who runs after taking a light wound, because of the +1 T# ?
Anyway, it was fun for me to make him. :)

So, my first question and comments.
I started running my own game about a year ago, and I have a problem that I
need help with. My characters are all greedy sonsobitches, who haven't come
to the realization yet that SR II is _deadly_, and they keep doing stupid
things and get killed, which naturally annoys them. I try to lead them to
the non-lethal side of SR, but I think I'm failing miserably. Last time they
went up against some drunk trolls and picked a fight with them. Now picking
a fight w/ 5 drunk trolls is not a bright thing to do, but they still swept
the floor with them. They did get hit hard in the IMAGO module (great run
BTW except for the ending) tho. Any suggestions?

==<Mark Rickard>==


P.S. Sorry for the rambling length, but it's not a slavery/flame/magic post, eh?
Message no. 9
From: "P.o.D. Overlord" <S20X@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 09:21:35 EST
Mark R. mentioned that his PC's have been sweeping the floor with
anything that comes their way. Well, I've been trying to deal with this
ever since I said I would GM SRII. My group takes out anyone and
everything usually within the first 3 combat rounds! Well, to combat
this I've been making the opposition a little better. Like up'ing their
stats, giving them better weapons, ammo, etc. I even created some full
conversion borgs with my own rules. I let these borgs make their
appearance in one game. They Pc's just sat and watched these things,
they didn't even want to get close!! Mission accomplished. I can't
wait to actually use these things in combat with my PC's. Another
solution might be, cheat on some of the dice rolls, or give the bad guys
a karma pool. Or use the Professional ratings SRII suggests. Hope this
helps.....

WRAITH
Message no. 10
From: Skrub <mccllstr@*****.BUCKNELL.EDU>
Subject: skills
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 14:10:31 -0500
How good is good at a skill? I remember seeing somewhere. may have been SR1,
a table to help you figure just how good someone is, in a general rather
than practical sense. ie, my 7 in the History concentration of sociology. Is
that eqivalent to a degree in history? (please no one tell me a lot more
goes into a degree than a single skill) How good is 4? Does it work like
attributes where 3 would be typical ability? What IS typical ability? Thanx.

-Skrub
Message no. 11
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: skills
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 19:26:24 +1100
Skrub writes:

> How good is good at a skill? I remember seeing somewhere. may have been SR1,
> a table to help you figure just how good someone is, in a general rather
> than practical sense. ie, my 7 in the History concentration of sociology. Is
> that eqivalent to a degree in history? (please no one tell me a lot more
> goes into a degree than a single skill) How good is 4? Does it work like
> attributes where 3 would be typical ability? What IS typical ability? Thanx.

I was under the impression that 3 was an average skill. Think about it, a 6
in physical sciences means that you know (and rather well too) all about
every type of physical science (like chem, phys, bio) as well as all types
of engineering (and I won't give the dozens of different examples for that).
Someone with 6 in that skill is _very_ well educated indeed. In fact, I'd be
tempted to say that a 6 in any of the physical skills (like athletics, or
firearms) does not stack up to a 6 in one of the knowledge skills, you just
have so much more knowledge.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 12
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: skills
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 23:35:14 -0700
On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Skrub writes:
>
> > How good is good at a skill? I remember seeing somewhere. may have been SR1,
> > a table to help you figure just how good someone is, in a general rather
> > than practical sense. ie, my 7 in the History concentration of sociology. Is
> > that eqivalent to a degree in history? (please no one tell me a lot more
> > goes into a degree than a single skill) How good is 4? Does it work like
> > attributes where 3 would be typical ability? What IS typical ability? Thanx.
>
> I was under the impression that 3 was an average skill. Think about it, a 6
> in physical sciences means that you know (and rather well too) all about
> every type of physical science (like chem, phys, bio) as well as all types
> of engineering (and I won't give the dozens of different examples for that).
> Someone with 6 in that skill is _very_ well educated indeed. In fact, I'd be
> tempted to say that a 6 in any of the physical skills (like athletics, or
> firearms) does not stack up to a 6 in one of the knowledge skills, you just
> have so much more knowledge.

I agree, but being in chem for a mighty 4 years, I've come to the
conclusion that there's no way in hell I'll ever know everything about
the subject. I think that general knowledge of a subject is available
through the general skill (phys science), but to know more about the
inner workings of a science or skill, then a specialization is required.
A person with a 10 in Physical Chemistry is a master of physical
chemistry (PhD?) and a person with a 10 in Physical Sciences is a guy who
can clean up any science category in Jeopardy. Perhaps someone like a
doctor who needed a lot of general science in their background.

Just a rambling. I seem to be doing a lot of this in college. :-)

Mike aka Spellslinger
Message no. 13
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Skills
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:51:30 -0700
I was just wondering how most of the GM's out there handle characters
raising Attributes and Skills during game-play. It never has made sense
to me in any gaming system that suddenly the character has enough
experience points/karma and PRESTO is able to use his gun/sword in ways
he'd never thought of before.

Basically I allow the raising of attributes if and whenever...no
requirement to go to the gym or reading Dianetics to increase your
Strength or Intelligence, I write off that it is more or less your
lifestyle and such that contributes here.

For skills though, I took the process used in Earthdawn and whittled it
down a bit:

First you must find a teacher who must have the skil, concentration or
specialization you're wanting to train in at least two higher than the
level you are training for. They are backwards compatible, in other
words someone with a skill could train you for a concentration, as wells
as someone with a concentration could train you for a specialization,
etc. Teachers fees are a base of 150 NuYen per skill level.

Time involved is the skill level in days training, plus skill level in
weeks of practice on your own. Concentrations require 75% of this time,
specialiaztions are 50%.

This is just some chicken scratch on what I came up with. What do you
think, and does anyone have some other ways of handling it?


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 14
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:21:01 -0500 (EST)
>This is just some chicken scratch on what I came up with. What do you
>think, and does anyone have some other ways of handling it?
>
>
>
Having to learn skills in any manner other than instantly knowing them is
and always has been an excellent idea... You can use that to enhance role
playing and the personal lives of your characters...

Now, I have been playing and running role playing games since 4th grade
(God, that's 14 years now...) and have played almost every roleplaying game
out there at least once... Now, these examples aren't shadowrun, but they
are examples of how I've dealt with skill raising. If anyone out tehre
isn't happy with me mentioning other games, feel free to flame me... or
THWAP me, as the case may be...:)

Ok, I ran a ver extensive Star Wars RPG campaign when I was in college... I
had several fairly small groups (4 to 5 players) and I stressed role plying
above roll playing. I ran an entire week long campaign (about 5 five our
sessions) where the PC's searched for an anciant Jedi Master so that the two
Jedi's could raise there skills. Similar things happened for our Bounty
Hunter and Smuggler when they wanted to raise there skills above a certain
point.

Now, I assume that you could pretty much self train or group train with
other PC's up to a certain point (about a rating 5 or 6 in shadowrun), after
which, they can only learn from someone better... this often kept them from
getting too out of hand. Knowledge type skills are abit easier to learn on
your own through study, so I gave them an extra point or two before they
needed teachers...

I've also created my own RPG's from time to time, and the l;ast one I did
was a Time Travel game where the player's played themselves... A bunch of
schmuck know nothing high school and college kids... They were free to
learn any skill they wanted, provided they had an example first... you
couldn't learn a fire arms skill in a medieval setting, because no one had
any guns... If you didn'tr attempt to use a sword, you couldn't gain the
sword skill, that sort of thing... If they tried it first through role play
and game time, then they could learn it... It was a little basic and
subjective, but made for a fun little diversion when we didn't want to play
the regular game...:)

Hope you enjoy incoherent ramblibg, 'cause that's what you got...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 15
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:12:31 +0100
Steven Ratkovich said on 19:21/10 Sep 96...

> Now, I assume that you could pretty much self train or group train with
> other PC's up to a certain point (about a rating 5 or 6 in shadowrun), after
> which, they can only learn from someone better... this often kept them from
> getting too out of hand. Knowledge type skills are abit easier to learn on
> your own through study, so I gave them an extra point or two before they
> needed teachers...

I fail to see the logic here... For one, where did the "master" get the
knowledge? *Somebody* must have learned it all by himself (if only so he
could teach it to others), and if one person can, so should others.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I swore I'd never ever be like him...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 16
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:53:05 -0500 (EST)
>Steven Ratkovich said on 19:21/10 Sep 96...
>
>> Now, I assume that you could pretty much self train or group train with
>> other PC's up to a certain point (about a rating 5 or 6 in shadowrun), after
>> which, they can only learn from someone better... this often kept them from
>> getting too out of hand. Knowledge type skills are abit easier to learn on
>> your own through study, so I gave them an extra point or two before they
>> needed teachers...
>
>I fail to see the logic here... For one, where did the "master" get the
>knowledge? *Somebody* must have learned it all by himself (if only so he
>could teach it to others), and if one person can, so should others.
>
Yes, but that's the type of person who spends Many years teaching himself.
If a group of shadowrunners can afford to take a few years off to do nothing
but train...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 17
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:27:23 -0600 (MDT)
Steven Ratkovich wrote:
|
|>This is just some chicken scratch on what I came up with. What do you
|>think, and does anyone have some other ways of handling it?

My house rule: Players can spend karma raise stats 1 point
per adventure (series of sessions). And, this expenditure
can only be spent on those stats that they used regularly
during the adventure. Time (a couple weeks to a couple
months) can be taken to spend karma on stats that weren't
used. Extensive time (several months to several years) and
regular attendance of classes can be taken to raise a stat
without the expenditure of karma.

All of the above is subject to change based on the
situation.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 18
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:00:10 -0500
At 11:51 AM 9/10/96 -0700, you wrote:
>I was just wondering how most of the GM's out there handle characters
>raising Attributes and Skills during game-play.
>
>This is just some chicken scratch on what I came up with. What do you
>think, and does anyone have some other ways of handling it?

Your idea that I snipped is pretty interesting. In my game, we usually have
so much time between runs (averages of three game weeks or so) that I just
say the increases happen during that time. We let attributes and skills
increase only between runs. It not only cuts down on some of the paperwork
involved in keeping track of a character, but when the gamers show up to
play the game, we can spend more time on the actual adventure instead of
bookkeeping.

We usually do our bookkeeping (distributing Karma awards, shopping for new
toys) and some side (one-on-one) adventures by e-mail. We recently did
something that a player came up with that allowed me to incorporate some
more threads into the game all by e-mail. (He hosted a birthday party and
invited the PCs and about thirty NPCs; I got to drop a few hints of what's
going on to several of the gamers by e-mail.)

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"Get back in the drawer, sock boy."
-Zorax
Message no. 19
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:36:25 +0100
Steven Ratkovich said on 7:53/11 Sep 96...

> >I fail to see the logic here... For one, where did the "master" get the

> >knowledge? *Somebody* must have learned it all by himself (if only so he
> >could teach it to others), and if one person can, so should others.
> >
> Yes, but that's the type of person who spends Many years teaching himself.
> If a group of shadowrunners can afford to take a few years off to do nothing
> but train...:)

That makes more sense, yes. Although if you do institute a "have to study
to improve" rule, better increase the time needed for each skill level --
not something like "You go from 5 to 6? Okay, that'll take you about a
month." and later on "From 6 to 7... are you sure? It takes YEARS to
reach that kind of ability, you know."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tourist, Rincewind had decided, meant 'idiot'.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 20
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@*******.tamu.edu>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:35:08 -0500 (CDT)
> -Thomas Deeny
> the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas
>
> "Get back in the drawer, sock boy."
> -Zorax

It wasn't Zorax, it was Brak that said it...

quibble quibble quibble

Bill
Message no. 21
From: Peter Leitch <pleitch_hpcs@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 18:43:56 +1000
At 11:51 10/09/96 -0700, Loki wrote:
>I was just wondering how most of the GM's out there handle characters
>raising Attributes and Skills during game-play. It never has made sense
>to me in any gaming system that suddenly the character has enough
>experience points/karma and PRESTO is able to use his gun/sword in ways
>he'd never thought of before.
>
<snip mechanics>
>
>This is just some chicken scratch on what I came up with. What do you
>think, and does anyone have some other ways of handling it?

Not bad, but a little more complicated than our game. We don't allow
skills or attributes to be raised during a game, only after an adventure
is over, when characters are awarded karma. The effects don't take
place immediately, but after 2-3 months games time. No skill or
attribute can be raised more than a single point per time, except
when starting a new skill. In other words, send the karma, make
a note but don't use the new skill for a while.

One assumption we make is that learning/teaching techniques have
advanced along with everything else. What took a year or more
in the 1990's now only takes a couple of months. Works for us.

PML

***************************************
Peter Leitch
<pleitch_hpcs@*******.com.au>
Canberra, Australia
Message no. 22
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Skills
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:53:54 -0400
How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and sculpting?
I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in the above.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 23
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:02:30 -0500
>How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and sculpting?
>I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in the
above.

Once again, you'll want SHADOWBEAT, which covers most of this.
Message no. 24
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:23:22 -0400
> >How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and
> sculpting?
> >I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in the
> above.
>
> Once again, you'll want SHADOWBEAT, which covers most of this.
>
Good lord, was this thing the Holy Grail of Shadowrun or what?
Message no. 25
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:28:19 -0500
>> >How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting,
>> >and sculpting?
>>
>> Once again, you'll want SHADOWBEAT, which covers most of this.
>>
> Good lord, was this thing the Holy Grail of Shadowrun or what?

Kind of frightening, isn't it?
Message no. 26
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:38:53 -0400
Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> said:
> >How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and sculpting?
> >I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in the
> above.
>
> Once again, you'll want SHADOWBEAT, which covers most of this.

But if you don't have it, here's some info. I know about Singing because
my char has learned a bit. Singing is a general skill. There are
concentrations such as rock, classical, chanting, stuff like that. There
are also specializations like hard rock, opera, stuff like that.

I don't know how painting and sculpting would go, but I could see the
two of them as concentrations of a general Art skill.

As to how to use those skills, you really need Shadowbeat. It includes
info on Impact, which is usually an open-ended skill test using dice from
an appropriate skill (like singing), plus half karma pool. Multiply the
highest number rolled by the singer's Charisma and check a table. That's
the way they figure out how good a rocker is. Rockers have 5 or 6 ranks
(from unknown to supernova), and high or low rolls move them up or down
a rank. Of course the system breaks down at the high end. I helped
another player design a slightly cybered elven keyboardist who could
make Supernova easily. The best thing to do is "play it by ear" till you
can find a copy of ShadowBeat.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 27
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:17:48 -0400
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Skills

> >How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and sculpting?
> >I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in the
> above.
>
> Once again, you'll want SHADOWBEAT, which covers most of this.
>

Might find some of the info under geasa to be helpfull as well.


--Droopy
Message no. 28
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:07:22 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-30 16:24:47 EDT, you write:

> > Once again, you'll want SHADOWBEAT, which covers most of this.
> >
> Good lord, was this thing the Holy Grail of Shadowrun or what?

No, just the most undervalued source book in the world. It covers basically
everything that will not directly help you on a run, and quite a few that are
(Centering skills, knowing which Urban Brawl team is based in Sacremento)

Nexx
Message no. 29
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:01:16 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/98 3:00:12 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
baishen@**********.COM writes:

> How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and sculpting?
> I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in the above.

Umm, Singing is covered in Shadowbeat ... and would be considered a base
skill. A particular style of singing (ie Rap, Opera, Humming, etc) would be a
Concentration. Specializations would either be in a single song (one hit
wonders ?!?) or even a particular geographic area (caribbean reggae, which
IIRC is an early predecessor of Rap ?!?).

-Herc
-------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 30
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:06:57 +1000
> > Once again, you'll want SHADOWBEAT, which covers most of this.
> >
> Good lord, was this thing the Holy Grail of Shadowrun or what?

The ironic thing is that everyone usually says Shadowbeat is totally
useless...

(until they keep wanting Rule X or descriptions of this or that... and
realise they need Shadowbeat - again!)

Lady Jestyr

- I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 31
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:37:54 -0400
> >How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and sculpting?
> >I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in the above.
> Once again, you'll want SHADOWBEAT, which covers most of this.

Welp, as I don't have it, can ya'll give me a bit of info on what the
point costs would be?
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 32
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:53:39 -0400
> > Once again, you'll want SHADOWBEAT, which covers most of this.
> But if you don't have it, here's some info. I know about Singing because
> my char has learned a bit. Singing is a general skill. There are
> concentrations such as rock, classical, chanting, stuff like that. There
> are also specializations like hard rock, opera, stuff like that.

Okay, thanks.

> I don't know how painting and sculpting would go, but I could see the
> two of them as concentrations of a general Art skill.

Cool.

> As to how to use those skills, you really need Shadowbeat. It includes
> info on Impact, which is usually an open-ended skill test using dice from
> an appropriate skill (like singing), plus half karma pool. Multiply the
> highest number rolled by the singer's Charisma and check a table. That's
> the way they figure out how good a rocker is. Rockers have 5 or 6 ranks
> (from unknown to supernova), and high or low rolls move them up or down
> a rank. Of course the system breaks down at the high end. I helped
> another player design a slightly cybered elven keyboardist who could
> make Supernova easily. The best thing to do is "play it by ear" till you
> can find a copy of ShadowBeat.

Welp, I don't think it's gonna be a big deal, I jus' wanna know how much
the skills would cost for char creation.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 33
From: Waffelmaisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 03:05:18 -0500
>
> Skills (Bai Shen , 14:53)
>
> How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and sculpting?
> I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in the above.

They would each be knowledge skills purchased with the freebe
intelligence points. You could specialize in a particular style.

whoops, timewarp. That's a week early.

Mongoose, 3rd edition
Message no. 34
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:15:00 +0100
Bai Shen said on 15:53/30 Jul 98,...

> How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and sculpting?
> I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in the above.

Shadowbeat has some ideas for this. Though it's mainly aimed at
singing and musical performances, the rules can easily be
adapted to other art forms. It makes singing etc. Special Skills,
with concentrations in certain styles, for example Guitar (Electric)
or Singing (Classical).

For art, you could add skills like Painting, Sculpting, Drawing, and
so on. Then use the rules on pages 10 to 13 of Shadowbeat to
judge how good the resulting piece of art is.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's pretty scary.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 35
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:23:03 -0400
> > How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and sculpting?
> > I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in the above.
> Umm, Singing is covered in Shadowbeat ... and would be considered a base
> skill. A particular style of singing (ie Rap, Opera, Humming, etc) would be a
> Concentration. Specializations would either be in a single song (one hit
> wonders ?!?) or even a particular geographic area (caribbean reggae, which
> IIRC is an early predecessor of Rap ?!?).

Welp, I managed to pick up Shadowbeat last night an' found the stuff
about singin'. However, I'm still not sure what to do about painting
and sculpting. Any ideas, ya'll?
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 36
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:39:37 -0500
For art, you could add skills like Painting, Sculpting, Drawing, and
so on. Then use the rules on pages 10 to 13 of Shadowbeat to
judge how good the resulting piece of art is.

Or just be patient and wait until SR3 comes out, since we are no longer
using a skill web, or so it has been foretold...

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 37
From: Greg Symons <gsymons@******.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:05:35 -0400
>> > How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and
sculpting?
>> > I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in
the above.
>> Umm, Singing is covered in Shadowbeat ... and would be considered a
base
>> skill. A particular style of singing (ie Rap, Opera, Humming, etc)
would be a
>> Concentration. Specializations would either be in a single song
(one hit
>> wonders ?!?) or even a particular geographic area (caribbean
reggae, which
>> IIRC is an early predecessor of Rap ?!?).
>
>Welp, I managed to pick up Shadowbeat last night an' found the stuff
>about singin'. However, I'm still not sure what to do about painting
>and sculpting. Any ideas, ya'll?

I don't know about what to do with the successes (I, unfortunately,
have never even _seen_ Shadowbeat:( but here's how I'd break the
skills down for various art forms:

Drawing (general skill)
Medium (pen & ink, charcoal, conte, etc)
Style (Abstract, Expressionist, etc...)

Painting (general skill)
Medium (watercolor, oil, tempera, acrylic)
Style (same as above)

Sculpture (general skill)
Medium (metals, stone, clay)
Style (same as above)

Mixed Media/Installation Art (general skill)*
Mixed Media
Style (same as above)
Installations
Style (same as above)

Crafts (general skill)**
Medium (Fibres, Clay, Wood, etc)
Style (thrown pottery, weaving, etc.)

Theatre (general skill)***
Acting
Technique (Uta Hagen, Alexander, etc.)
Medium (Film, Stage, Musical, Sim, Trideo)
Style (Shakespearean, Classical Greek, post-Modern, etc)
Technical
Stage Management
Lighting Design
Scene Design
Sound Design
Directing
Style (Shakespearean, Classical Greek, post-Modern, etc)
Medium (Film, Stage, Musical, Sim, Trideo)
Dramaturgy (theatre history)
Style (Shakespearean, Classical Greek, post-Modern, etc)
Medium (Film, Stage, Musical, Sim, Trideo)
Performance (single play)

*Mixed Media and Installation art forms are both combinations of
several techniques, which is why they warrant a skill of their own. I
would also rule that at least two other artforms be required to make
use of this skill, as much of the skill itself comes from know what to
use for what (mixed media), or where to put it (installations) as
opposed to how to do it

**Yes, this is a separate category. Ask any art major.

***This is a little more detailed, as it _is_ my chosen art form:) The
reason I put theatre as a general skill is that any _trained_ actor,
director, techie, whatever, is going to have _some_ knowledge in the
other areas, if only enough to do his job (i.e. the stage manager
knows to give the actors plenty of time to warm up, the director
should know something about previous productions, and the actors know
to stay out of the techies' way during Hell Week (or in the case of
most Broadway musicals, Hell Month:)). Even untrained theatre people
will either pick up a little in the other areas or they won't be
around long... people will find them entirely too annoying.

I'm still not sure how to handle trideo, simsense, and film
production, as they have skills that don't fit neatly into the theatre
skill (editing, camerawork, etc.) I also have a problem with some of
the specializations off of Technical theatre, as most of those have
possible concentrations/specializations (e.g.):

Lighting
Design (deciding how to light the stage)
Style
Production (actually putting up and wiring the lights)
Light Hanging/Focussing
Stage Wiring (different from wiring anything like a house:)
Lighting Control Systems (hmmm... that's an interesting
thought... datajack controlled light systems... no missing the cue
because your finger was in your ear:)

But anyway, this post has now taken me almost an hour to write, so I
guess I'll just send it and see what happens.

Greg

*********************************************************************
* *
* \ (__) Greg Symons <gsymons@******.temple.edu> *
* \\(oo) Seanchai/ and Follower of Bri\de *
* /-----\\\/ *
* / | (##) "Hearken closely and you shall hear the *
* * ||----||" sound of cows and bagpipes upon the heath" *
* ^^ ^^ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 38
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 11:57:15 +0100
Bai Shen said on 11:23/1 Aug 98,...

> Welp, I managed to pick up Shadowbeat last night an' found the stuff
> about singin'. However, I'm still not sure what to do about painting
> and sculpting. Any ideas, ya'll?

What I suggest you do is let the sculptor or painter roll a test
using the appropriate Special Skill, multiply by his or her
Charisma, and look at the Performance Ratings Table on page 13
for an idea of how well the piece of art comes out.

Then slightly adjust the Rocker Status rules, mainly by changing
the names a bit, to allow players to become well-known artists.
As for the Booking Fee and Distribution, these could work like this:

The Booking Fee is what the artist gets for selling a piece -- roll
the Performance Test for each piece of art created, and use the
formula for the Booking Fee to decide the base price collectors,
galleries, or museums are willing to pay for it.

The Distribution would be used if the artist makes a series of the
same thing, like making a painting and then having X copies
printed. The total amount of money made by all the copies that
are sold equals the result of the Distribution formula. (If someone
wants to buy the original, you can still use the Booking Fee
formula for that, as it's usually sold separately.)

All it takes are some minor modifications, mainly to the names of
things, and you're there.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Money, tickets, passports! Money, tickets, passports!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 39
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 14:15:08 +0100
And verily, did Greg Symons hastily scribble thusly...
|Sculpture (general skill)
| Medium (metals, stone, clay)

I little limited. Should be (Any item that can be shaped in 3D, eg Wood,
Metal, Stone, Plastic, etc).

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 40
From: Greg Symons <gsymons@******.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 13:44:37 -0400
>And verily, did Greg Symons hastily scribble thusly...
>|Sculpture (general skill)
>| Medium (metals, stone, clay)
>
>I little limited. Should be (Any item that can be shaped in 3D, eg
Wood,
>Metal, Stone, Plastic, etc).

That's actually what I meant... I forgot the etc.:)

I also ran it by an art major friend of mine, and he suggested an
addition:

Graphic Design
Medium (Computer-based publishing, printmaking, etc...)
Style (Advertising, Packaging, Illustration, etc...)

The difference in styles for this one is mainly because graphic design
tends to primarily stick to current trends as opposed to using
historical ones. Stylistic differences are more on what the design is
meant to communicate, though they also tend to overlap a lot (look at
a product's ads... now look at the packaging... usually same color
scheme, graphic elements, etc...)



*********************************************************************
* *
* \ (__) Greg Symons <gsymons@******.temple.edu> *
* \\(oo) Seanchai/ and Follower of Bri\de *
* /-----\\\/ *
* / | (##) "Hearken closely and you shall hear the *
* * ||----||" sound of cows and bagpipes upon the heath" *
* ^^ ^^ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 41
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:05:28 -0400
> Or just be patient and wait until SR3 comes out, since we are no longer
> using a skill web, or so it has been foretold...

Whyzat?
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 42
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:25:54 +0100
Bai Shen said on 15:05/2 Aug 98,...

> > Or just be patient and wait until SR3 comes out, since we are no longer
> > using a skill web, or so it has been foretold...
>
> Whyzat?

SR3 apparently does away with the skill web in favor of putting
them in skill groups linked to specific attributes. I don't know if I
like this, but I'll see about that when I get my SR3. If need be,
I'm going to create my own skill web for 3rd edition.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Money, tickets, passports! Money, tickets, passports!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 43
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:56:00 -0400
> > > Or just be patient and wait until SR3 comes out, since we are no longer
> > > using a skill web, or so it has been foretold...
> > Whyzat?
> SR3 apparently does away with the skill web in favor of putting
> them in skill groups linked to specific attributes. I don't know if I
> like this, but I'll see about that when I get my SR3. If need be,
> I'm going to create my own skill web for 3rd edition.

Oh, okay. As long as they're not totally getting rid of the concept.
That's one of the things I like about SR's skill system.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 44
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:25:18 -0400
> > > > Or just be patient and wait until SR3 comes out, since we are no
> longer
> > > > using a skill web, or so it has been foretold...
> > > Whyzat?
> > SR3 apparently does away with the skill web in favor of putting
> > them in skill groups linked to specific attributes. I don't know if
> I
> > like this, but I'll see about that when I get my SR3. If need be,
> > I'm going to create my own skill web for 3rd edition.
>
> Oh, okay. As long as they're not totally getting rid of the concept.
> That's one of the things I like about SR's skill system.
>
I have a player who has been a thorn in my ass since the
latest game started. One of his main bitch points is that its a lot
easier to get a TN with his 6 charisma than with his 1 skill, even if
its a 16 TN statistically his chances are better with the 6 dice.
He and I have both been playing White Wolf's system for
many years and grew to like the Stat+Skill system very much. It is
practical, versatile and makes sense. I hope they move towards that so I
can shut this guy up.
Message no. 45
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:09:55 +0800
On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:25:18 -0400, bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

> I have a player who has been a thorn in my ass since the
>latest game started. One of his main bitch points is that its a lot
>easier to get a TN with his 6 charisma than with his 1 skill, even if
>its a 16 TN statistically his chances are better with the 6 dice.
> He and I have both been playing White Wolf's system for
>many years and grew to like the Stat+Skill system very much. It is
>practical, versatile and makes sense. I hope they move towards that so I
>can shut this guy up.


By the rules, you can only use the skill web if you do not have an applicable skill.

If a player starts playing rules lawyer, and being a thorn in the Ms ass, the GM is well
advised to tell him to smarten up, or find the door.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com

Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.

Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.
Message no. 46
From: Thomas Berman <nylar@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 18:11:29 +0000
Right, you forgot one... :)

Writing
Expository
Journalism
Letter Writing
Beauracratic
Creative
Novel
Poetry
Short Story
Playwrighting

Would be interesting to have an SR character who was a novelist...
Almost all my Mage: The Ascension chars were writers in their spare
time, it would be interesting to see how it would work in SR. Also,
for Impact tests, Intelligence is used as attribute instead of
Charisma.


------------------------------
Thomas "Nylar" Berman
"Dump Shock - Taste The Magic!"

gametheory@***********.com
Message no. 47
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:52:44 -0600
>>> > How would ya'll handle the skills of singing, painting, and
>sculpting?
>>> > I was thinking of a general skill art, with concentrations in
>the above.
>>> Umm, Singing is covered in Shadowbeat ... and would be considered a
>base
>>> skill. A particular style of singing (ie Rap, Opera, Humming, etc)
>would be a
>>> Concentration. Specializations would either be in a single song
>(one hit
>>> wonders ?!?) or even a particular geographic area (caribbean
>reggae, which
>>> IIRC is an early predecessor of Rap ?!?).
>>
>>Welp, I managed to pick up Shadowbeat last night an' found the stuff
>>about singin'. However, I'm still not sure what to do about painting
>>and sculpting. Any ideas, ya'll?
>
>I don't know about what to do with the successes (I, unfortunately,
>have never even _seen_ Shadowbeat:( but here's how I'd break the
>skills down for various art forms:
>
>Drawing (general skill)
> Medium (pen & ink, charcoal, conte, etc)
> Style (Abstract, Expressionist, etc...)
>
>Painting (general skill)
> Medium (watercolor, oil, tempera, acrylic)
> Style (same as above)
>

I would combine these two into 2D art. The only difference between them is
the medium.

>Theatre (general skill)***
> Acting
> Technique (Uta Hagen, Alexander, etc.)
> Medium (Film, Stage, Musical, Sim, Trideo)
> Style (Shakespearean, Classical Greek, post-Modern, etc)
> Technical
> Stage Management
> Lighting Design
> Scene Design
> Sound Design
> Directing
> Style (Shakespearean, Classical Greek, post-Modern, etc)
> Medium (Film, Stage, Musical, Sim, Trideo)
> Dramaturgy (theatre history)
> Style (Shakespearean, Classical Greek, post-Modern, etc)
> Medium (Film, Stage, Musical, Sim, Trideo)
> Performance (single play)

<snip>

>***This is a little more detailed, as it _is_ my chosen art form:) The
>reason I put theatre as a general skill is that any _trained_ actor,
>director, techie, whatever, is going to have _some_ knowledge in the
>other areas, if only enough to do his job (i.e. the stage manager
>knows to give the actors plenty of time to warm up, the director
>should know something about previous productions, and the actors know
>to stay out of the techies' way during Hell Week (or in the case of
>most Broadway musicals, Hell Month:)). Even untrained theatre people
>will either pick up a little in the other areas or they won't be
>around long... people will find them entirely too annoying.
>
>I'm still not sure how to handle trideo, simsense, and film
>production, as they have skills that don't fit neatly into the theatre
>skill (editing, camerawork, etc.) I also have a problem with some of
>the specializations off of Technical theatre, as most of those have
>possible concentrations/specializations (e.g.):
>
>Lighting
> Design (deciding how to light the stage)
> Style
> Production (actually putting up and wiring the lights)
> Light Hanging/Focussing
> Stage Wiring (different from wiring anything like a house:)
> Lighting Control Systems (hmmm... that's an interesting
>thought... datajack controlled light systems... no missing the cue
>because your finger was in your ear:)

This is a problem for most of your categories in the theatre area. It
appears that an actor would have to specialize in either a technique,
medium or a style. I think most people could find themselves doing the
same thing with their own RL specialty.

I would have them be a group of skills rather than concentrations of a
single theatre skill. Using the skill web you can easily default to
another skill to show the result of cross training/extended exposure to the
other areas.

Paitro

(sig stolen from my brother)

"All the world's a stage, and I have to light the damn thing."
the Jaded Master Electrician
Message no. 48
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:13:07 -0400
bryan.covington wrote:
>> > like this, but I'll see about that when I get my SR3. If need be,
>> > I'm going to create my own skill web for 3rd edition.
>>
>> Oh, okay. As long as they're not totally getting rid of the concept.
>> That's one of the things I like about SR's skill system.
>
> I have a player who has been a thorn in my ass since the
>latest game started. One of his main bitch points is that its a lot
>easier to get a TN with his 6 charisma than with his 1 skill, even if
>its a 16 TN statistically his chances are better with the 6 dice.

Is he looking for 12s or something normally? In any case, you could
always go to the Companion and use the rule for partial defaulting
(basically, average the dice and average the TNs). This was something
that bothered a lot of people - spending karma to get a new skill which
meant that you were less likely to succeed...

> He and I have both been playing White Wolf's system for
>many years and grew to like the Stat+Skill system very much. It is
>practical, versatile and makes sense. I hope they move towards that so I
>can shut this guy up.

Ick! No way! SR is one of the rare systems that uses separate dice
for skills and it's much easier to deal with than stat+skill. If you
want that sort of system, get Cyberpunk. Or did you mean rolling stat
+ skill d6s? Again, no thanks - that would get brutal! Attributes are
useful enough as it is and cheaper to buy up than skills - getting to
use Quickness for your Combat pool, Reaction, and Firearms would be a
drastic change (and for little benefit, AFAICS).

James Ojaste
Message no. 49
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:25:10 -0400
> > He and I have both been playing White Wolf's system
> for
> >many years and grew to like the Stat+Skill system very much. It is
> >practical, versatile and makes sense. I hope they move towards that
> so I
> >can shut this guy up.
>
> Ick! No way! SR is one of the rare systems that uses separate dice
> for skills and it's much easier to deal with than stat+skill. If you
> want that sort of system, get Cyberpunk. Or did you mean rolling stat
> + skill d6s? Again, no thanks - that would get brutal! Attributes
> are
> useful enough as it is and cheaper to buy up than skills - getting to
> use Quickness for your Combat pool, Reaction, and Firearms would be a
> drastic change (and for little benefit, AFAICS).
>
Firearms for example. 3 Firearms and say 3 quickness
(one of the caveats is that all the skills need to tie back to a stat
for general use).

TN = 6

3+3= 6d6 to roll

I am not suggesting this as a replacement system. There is a big
difference, WW uses d10's so the TNs can be higher and no big deal. I am
just explaining the point that it seems odd that the skills and stats
are totally separate. Of course I guess thats what the pools are for.
Message no. 50
From: Greg Symons <gsymons@******.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:37:55 -0400
[snip]

>>
>>Drawing (general skill)
>> Medium (pen & ink, charcoal, conte, etc)
>> Style (Abstract, Expressionist, etc...)
>>
>>Painting (general skill)
>> Medium (watercolor, oil, tempera, acrylic)
>> Style (same as above)
>>
>
>I would combine these two into 2D art. The only difference between
them is
>the medium.

Yes and no. In drawing, you never have to worry about mixing colors,
whereas often, painting is _all_ about mixing colors to get what you
want. Also, using a brush is greatly different from using a pen or a
pencil. Finally the painting skill would also include such minor
details as preparing canvasses and making stretchers, things a sketch
artist (unless he also had painting experience, of course) wouldn't
necessarily know how to do. But you are right. I personally have never
met a sketch artist who knew nothing about painting, and a painter who
could not sketch would be pretty much useless. However, I see this
more as a well-rounded training than a relation between skills close
enough to be together. YMMV, of course:)

[snip details of theatre skill]

>>
>>I'm still not sure how to handle trideo, simsense, and film
>>production, as they have skills that don't fit neatly into the
theatre
>>skill (editing, camerawork, etc.) I also have a problem with some of
>>the specializations off of Technical theatre, as most of those have
>>possible concentrations/specializations (e.g.):
>>
>>Lighting
>> Design (deciding how to light the stage)
>> Style
>> Production (actually putting up and wiring the lights)
>> Light Hanging/Focussing
>> Stage Wiring (different from wiring anything like a house:)
>> Lighting Control Systems (hmmm... that's an interesting
>>thought... datajack controlled light systems... no missing the cue
>>because your finger was in your ear:)
>
>This is a problem for most of your categories in the theatre area.
It
>appears that an actor would have to specialize in either a technique,
>medium or a style.

Actually, actors rarely specialize. It makes them less employable:) So
I don't think the specializations for Acting are off base. The only
specializations I've ever seen people actually bother with in RL would
be a technique, and usually it's their own home-grown technique, which
is a synthesis of numerous techniques. Usually:)

I think most people could find themselves doing the
>same thing with their own RL specialty.
>
>I would have them be a group of skills rather than concentrations of
a
>single theatre skill. Using the skill web you can easily default to
>another skill to show the result of cross training/extended exposure
to the
>other areas.

To tell you the truth I actually had not even thought about using the
skill web. It would definitely work better... And since I just used
that argument above for the other art forms, I guess I better concede
here:) Although maybe I should just split out technical theatre from
the rest, as acting, directing, and dramaturgy are very much the same
in theory, just different in applications. I think they (Technical
Theatre and Theatre (Performance?)) should only be separated from each
other by one dot, and from Intelligence by 3, and Charisma by 2. Same
with the visual arts as well, except no tie-in to Charisma. The
Technical Theatre skill would be as follows:

Technical Theatre (Theatre B/R?)
Stage Management
(single company?)
Lighting
Design
Production
Scenery/Props
Design
Production
Sound
Design
Production
Editing
Film
Video/Trideo
Sim
Camerawork
Film
Video/Trideo

Anything else would be getting just a little complex, I think. After
all, the skills system _is_ an abstraction, is it not?

One thought I just had... since the skill web is already pretty full,
and since I don't see where there'd be much crossover to other skills,
perhaps the Art skills should have a web of their own? 'Course since
SR3 gets rid of the web, seems like a lot of work either way to work
the new skills into the web.

>"All the world's a stage, and I have to light the damn thing."
>the Jaded Master Electrician

Hmmm... _gotta_ send that to my friend Liz (recently got her MFA in
lighting design:)

Greg



*********************************************************************
* *
* \ (__) Greg Symons <gsymons@******.temple.edu> *
* \\(oo) Seanchai/ and Follower of Bri\de *
* /-----\\\/ *
* / | (##) "Hearken closely and you shall hear the *
* * ||----||" sound of cows and bagpipes upon the heath" *
* ^^ ^^ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 51
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Skills
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:46:30 -0400
Anybody got a good defination of the difference between
Computer(Hardware) and Computer B/R?
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 52
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:30:04 -0400
On 19 Aug 98, at 12:46, Bai Shen wrote:

> Anybody got a good defination of the difference between
> Computer(Hardware) and Computer B/R?

Computer Hardware is installing a board in your computer, or swaping
out a bad board; working with finished goods, and knowing how they
relate to each other.

Computer B/R is building a board from raw components, or soldering
individual components; having a knowledge of circuit level
functionality.

Think of Computer Hardware as the consultant that installs your new
modem.

Think of Computer B/R as the guy at the factory that replaces the
UART chip and runs the circuit trace.

IMHO.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 53
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:27:52 +0100
And verily, did Bai Shen hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Anybody got a good defination of the difference between
|Computer(Hardware) and Computer B/R?

How about...

Computer Hardware.
The character has a good understanding of the intricasies of computer
hardware, how verious parts interact, and how to design new stuff.

Computer (Build/Repair)
The character has a good understanding of computer diagnostics and the
construction of a computer. However, he doesn't nessecarily know how each
piece of hardware works at the grass-roots level, and couldn't design a
computer or peripheral without a lot of reading and trial and error....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 54
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:49:20 +1000
Tim Kerby writes:
> Computer Hardware is installing a board in your computer, or swaping
> out a bad board; working with finished goods, and knowing how they
> relate to each other.
>
> Computer B/R is building a board from raw components, or soldering
> individual components; having a knowledge of circuit level
> functionality.

Sorry, Tim...

Installing a board, building a board, soldering components, these are all
either Computer Hardware (B/R) tests, or Electronics (B/R) tests.

Computer Hardware would be used in designing new logic boards, chips, and so
on. IMHO, it would also be used for writing the driver-level software that
controls it (as this is tied in extremely closely with the hardware). It
would also be used to try to work out what that unidentified circuit board
does.

Just as Electronics is used to design electronic components, and Electronics
B/R is used to build them, the same applies for Computer Hardware and
Computer Hardware B/R. In fact, in my mind, there wouldn't be too much
difference between them, or (more accurately), Computer Hardware would in
practise be a concentration of Electronics, and they didn't do it that way
to make life easier for the deckers.

To Bai Shen, who posted the original question, go back into the logs and dig
out the debate on Electronics vs Electronics B/R that went around a couple
of months ago.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 55
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:55:59 +1000
>> Anybody got a good defination of the difference between
>> Computer(Hardware) and Computer B/R?
>
>Computer Hardware is installing a board in your computer, or swaping
>out a bad board; working with finished goods, and knowing how they
>relate to each other.
>
>Computer B/R is building a board from raw components, or soldering
>individual components; having a knowledge of circuit level
>functionality.

Weird; I'd actually say the reverse. I'd say that Computer Hardware is the
microelectronic engineer, whereas Computer Break&Repair is the computer
technician.

Again, IMHO.

Lady Jestyr

- Eagles may soar, but turkeys don't get sucked into jet engines. -
jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr
Message no. 56
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skills
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:25:46 -0400
> Think of Computer Hardware as the consultant that installs your new modem.
> Think of Computer B/R as the guy at the factory that replaces the
> UART chip and runs the circuit trace.

Sounds good. Thanks.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Skills, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!