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Message no. 1
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: SkillSofts
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1993 14:35:50 -0500
>fm pg 72 of SR2:

>"Social Skills concern the interaction of the player characters and non
>player characters. For interaction among player characters, the players
>should rely on their real social skills, though they can request, or the
>gamemaster insist, that the actual interaction be backed up with a skill test"

Just out of curiosity, why did you quote this section of the rules? This
applies to the interaction of real-life players, so that some fool doesn't
say "I have Negotiate 6, and Thag has Willpower 2; I roll my dice against
him to convince him to give me his share."

>while i think it is feasible to have a KnowSoft that might contain
>information on a street gang (who the leader is, what are the gang colors,
>where is their operating area, what is their M.O., etc), i don't believe
>that there is a soft for interacting with the gang members...i don't allow
>social skillsofts in my game...

Think of it this way. . .the etiquette soft gives you the current jive,
what words are hot, etc. This is true whether it's Street, Matrix, Corp,
or Finland etiquette. If you expand it as an Activesoft as well, it also
helps you gesticulate appropriately in. In all cases, however, they must
be updated periodically (GM discretion); like datasofts, their usefulness
degrades over time as the inmformation becomes outdated.

>another example: how would you justify a skillsoft that helps you in the
>leadership skill? do you mean to tell me that i can pop in a chip and
>become another Patton, or Hitler, or Alexander the Great??? this is not a
>skillsoft, but closer to those chips in Dreamchipper...which i believe
>eventually drove the people insane...

No. A leadership skillsoft will give you the teachable, learnable skill
taught by the military, management training courses, and self-motivation
seminars. You learn how to motivate people, keep them on task, and keep
control. Hitler had Charisma-people followed him because they loved him,
not because he was good at motivating them, staying organized, etc. The
average officer has Leadership; Jim Jones (or David Koresh, for a more
recent example) had Charisma.

>you could get a KnowSoft for Sociology, Psychology (group behavior),
>etc...but it will only give you insights on why people may do things, it
>won't necessarily make you a better or charismatic leader...
Correct. Sociology will let you see the forces affecting a group's
behavior. Psychology allows you to deduce the internal forces motivating
an individual. These won't let you lead them. But a Leadership skillsoft
would, because it tells you how to motivate people and keep them working.
But it won't make you charismatic; plenty of people obey the orders of
someone they don't like, because their leader has Leadership, if not
Charisma.

J Roberson
The Lord loveth a wealthy Giver
Message no. 2
From: "Richard C. Osterhout" <rcoster@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: SkillSofts
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1993 22:13:00 -0400
On Sat, 4 Sep 1993, The Deb Decker wrote:

> Think of it this way. . .the etiquette soft gives you the current jive,
> what words are hot, etc. This is true whether it's Street, Matrix, Corp,
> or Finland etiquette. If you expand it as an Activesoft as well, it also
> helps you gesticulate appropriately in. In all cases, however, they must
> be updated periodically (GM discretion); like datasofts, their usefulness
> degrades over time as the inmformation becomes outdated.
>
> No. A leadership skillsoft will give you the teachable, learnable skill
> taught by the military, management training courses, and self-motivation
> seminars. You learn how to motivate people, keep them on task, and keep
> control. Hitler had Charisma-people followed him because they loved him,
> not because he was good at motivating them, staying organized, etc. The
> average officer has Leadership; Jim Jones (or David Koresh, for a more
> recent example) had Charisma.

sorry, i don't buy it...i was in the military for 9 years, and i can say
that training does not a leader make...neither does training even give you
leadership skills...the person has to want to lead, and the people have to
be receptive to that leadership...

i havent seen anything on here to convince me otherwise, so i'll keep
playing that social skills cannot be skillsoft based...ya gotta make 'em
spend their skill points on something...
Message no. 3
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 11:21:09 -0500
>sorry, i don't buy it...i was in the military for 9 years, and i can say
>that training does not a leader make...neither does training even give you
>leadership skills...the person has to want to lead, and the people have to
>be receptive to that leadership...

Well, you have to want to fire the gun to use a Firearms skillsoft. And if
the audience isn't receptive, your TNs will go up. A leadership soft wouldn't
make you a leader, but it would give you the knowledge required to be more
effective. Of course, if the user wasn't willing to lead, then the ship is
in the wrong slot, so to speak.

Getting back to Etiquette softs, which are a more germane example, I believe
these are more viable than a leadership skillsoft, because there is no
contest of will involved. Either you know the slang or you're dead.

J Roberson
Message no. 4
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Skillsofts..
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:31:53 +0100
Hya all,

A question cropped up while a player of mine was creating a character..

If one buys activesofts, does one needs to have the memory in Mp in his
head? Or, is the activesoft like a CD-rom, that can be 'played' at will, and
does not need to be put on the 'harddisk'...

Thanx in advance,

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/index.htm
IDM
Male

-'Ik lup slal'-
Message no. 5
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:47:33 +0100
>A question cropped up while a player of mine was creating a character..
>
>If one buys activesofts, does one needs to have the memory in Mp in his
>head? Or, is the activesoft like a CD-rom, that can be 'played' at will, and
>does not need to be put on the 'harddisk'...

I have stated that he can play it if he has a chipjack or a datajack.
However, you could limit the level of such a use by the bandwidth of the
chipjack or datajack.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 6
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:47:07 -0500
J. G. du Chatinier didst incant:

>Hya all,


Howdy.

>A question cropped up while a player of mine was creating a character..
>
>If one buys activesofts, does one needs to have the memory in Mp in his
>head? Or, is the activesoft like a CD-rom, that can be 'played' at will,
and
>does not need to be put on the 'harddisk'...
>

IIRC, softlinks and chipjacks have a stripped down encephalon in them that
runs the program straight form the chip meaning that headware memory isn't
needed unless you're running the activesoft on a full bore encephalon
uploaded through a datajack.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe Swinging Sociopath for Fun
-Tech Priest in Training
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
you've sold your soul, now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice T
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:00:38 +0100
J. G. du Chatinier said on 16:31/ 9 Feb 98...

> If one buys activesofts, does one needs to have the memory in Mp in his
> head? Or, is the activesoft like a CD-rom, that can be 'played' at will, and
> does not need to be put on the 'harddisk'...

You don't need the headware memory. However, if you _do_ have the
headware, you can {up|down}load* the chip into that memory (essentially
copying it), and then removing the chip, so you have the chipjack free
again.

However, if you've loaded the chip into headware memory, you'll need some
other piece of cyberware to actually access it. For activesofts, that's
easy: skillwires. For knowsofts and linguasofts, an encephalon or datasoft
link should do it.

<plug>For a longer text on skillsofts, wires, and headware memory, check
out TSS issue 4.</plug>

* = The distinction between up- and downloading is very blurred when it
comes to skillchips and headware memory, IMHO...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Save Ferris!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 8
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:33:10 +0100
At 21:00 9-02-98 +0100, you wrote:
>J. G. du Chatinier said on 16:31/ 9 Feb 98...
>
>> If one buys activesofts, does one needs to have the memory in Mp in his
>> head? Or, is the activesoft like a CD-rom, that can be 'played' at will,
and
>> does not need to be put on the 'harddisk'...
>
>You don't need the headware memory. However, if you _do_ have the
>headware, you can {up|down}load* the chip into that memory (essentially
>copying it), and then removing the chip, so you have the chipjack free
>again.
>
>However, if you've loaded the chip into headware memory, you'll need some
>other piece of cyberware to actually access it. For activesofts, that's
>easy: skillwires. For knowsofts and linguasofts, an encephalon or datasoft
>link should do it.
>
><plug>For a longer text on skillsofts, wires, and headware memory, check
>out TSS issue 4.</plug>

Wait a minute...You say that you don't need a Skillwire to access Skillsofts ?
You need only a Datajack or Chipjack, and you only need a Skillwire to access
it from your memory ?

Cu,

Lort Gob
Message no. 9
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:49:50 +0100
>Wait a minute...You say that you don't need a Skillwire to access
Skillsofts ?
>You need only a Datajack or Chipjack, and you only need a Skillwire to access
>it from your memory ?

Nope. He says you only need these for for a knowsoft or a linguasoft.
Skillwires are necessary for an activesoft.
Then (but that's only his opinion...) he says that skillwires include (as a
package :) a way to access the soft when it is in memory.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 10
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:55:32 +0100
>>Wait a minute...You say that you don't need a Skillwire to access
>Skillsofts ?
>>You need only a Datajack or Chipjack, and you only need a Skillwire to
access
>>it from your memory ?
>
>Nope. He says you only need these for for a knowsoft or a linguasoft.
>Skillwires are necessary for an activesoft.
>Then (but that's only his opinion...) he says that skillwires include (as a
>package :) a way to access the soft when it is in memory.

Man, I've to learn much more.....
This opens new perspectives for my new PC....
Thanks ! Now what to do with some extra Essence ??? Hmmm....:)
Message no. 11
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:57:38 PST
>Wait a minute...You say that you don't need a Skillwire to access
Skillsofts ?

Not to ACCESS them, as raw knowledge or data- you need skillwires of a
sufficient level to use ACTIVE SOFTS- skillsofts that grant any active
skill, as opposed to knowledge, language, or data softs.

>You need only a Datajack or Chipjack, and you only need a Skillwire to
access it from your memory ?
>

The datajack or chipjack gives acess to the soft, as raw data.

Chipjacks and softlinks include all hardware needed to use non-active
type skillsofts.

Look at the various things (i/o spu, encephalon, datajjacks, softlinks)
in shadowtech for more specific info on thier capabilities regarding
USING the softs. The datajack in the main book includes some limited
ability to utilize chips. Datasofts require some sort of display so you
can review the data, although I think according to shadowtech, a
datajack from the main book includes something that will do that (an
"level 0" encephalon, according to shadowtech). As written in the basic
book, a datjack does NOT give acsess to skillsofts of any kind, but
shadowteck changes that somewhat.

I personally slighty disadgree with Gurth about the skillwires- if you
have a Shadowtech datajack (which is a data-port only, with NO handling
hardware for USING any 'soft) and skillwires, you still need something
to "route" the data to your skillwires. ALL the other jack sorts
include hardware sufficient for this, though- hence thier slightly
higher essnce cost.

Shadowtech also includes rules for "softlink load delay" that apply when
switching between various softs- reperenting how long it takes to route
a soft from either a 'jack of some kind or headware memory to the
apropriate hardware (probably skillwires).


>
>Lort Gob
>


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 12
From: Grahamdrew <grahamdrew@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:07:18 -0500
standard SRII datajack doesn't have a rating O encephalon, it has a
rating 0 I/O subprocessor
--
Disclaimer: My mind is so fragmented by random excursions into a
wilderness of abstractions and incipient ideas that the
practical purposes of the moment are often submerged in my consciousness
and I don't know what I'm doing.
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:38:56 +1000
Lort Gob writes:
>Wait a minute...You say that you don't need a Skillwire to access
Skillsofts ?
>You need only a Datajack or Chipjack, and you only need a Skillwire to
access
>it from your memory ?


Okay, this is an easy question...

Skillsofts do not need Skillwires to be used. What Skillwires allow is the
use of ActiveSofts: skillsofts that let you do things (as opposed to knowing
things). So you need Skillwires to use a Firearms chip, but not a Physical
Sciences(Chemistry) chip.

To access chips from memory... it's a bit unclear. I've always had the
opinion that all you need is the datajack or chipjack.

Note that you can't just download a chip into headware memory, unplug the
chip, and expect to use it... it's not just data, it's software.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:48:02 +0100
Robert Watkins said on 8:38/11 Feb 98...

> Note that you can't just download a chip into headware memory, unplug the
> chip, and expect to use it... it's not just data, it's software.

That's why you need a datasoft link or encephalon -- those provide the
processing power to make use of the skill software.

That brings up another compatibility issue for players: sure, nominally
all headware is based around the 29XX0-series of processors, but maybe
Ares-made 29650 chips use slightly different instruction sets than
Fuchi's 29650s, so running an Ares-made skillsoft on a Fuchi encephalon
results in less efficiency, like suffering a +1 to all TNs or a -1 to the
skill's rating...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I'll stop trying to make a difference.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:48:01 +0100
Mon goose said on 11:57/10 Feb 98...

> I personally slighty disadgree with Gurth about the skillwires- if you
> have a Shadowtech datajack (which is a data-port only, with NO handling
> hardware for USING any 'soft) and skillwires, you still need something
> to "route" the data to your skillwires. ALL the other jack sorts
> include hardware sufficient for this, though- hence thier slightly
> higher essnce cost.

I don't allow chips to be plugged into datajacks -- it doesn't make sense
to me that you can put a chip into something designed to accept a plug.
Just try sticking a chip into the headphone connector of your walkman (or
CD-ROM drive), you'll see what I mean.

Also, allowing chips to be put into datajacks removes the need for anyone
to get a chipjack, because a datajack is more versatile.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I'll stop trying to make a difference.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:48:01 +0100
Lort Gob said on 14:33/10 Feb 98...

> >However, if you've loaded the chip into headware memory, you'll need some
> >other piece of cyberware to actually access it. For activesofts, that's
> >easy: skillwires. For knowsofts and linguasofts, an encephalon or datasoft
> >link should do it.
>
> Wait a minute...You say that you don't need a Skillwire to access Skillsofts ?
> You need only a Datajack or Chipjack, and you only need a Skillwire to access
> it from your memory ?

No, it works like this:

Activesoft in chipjack: needs skillwires
Activesoft in headware memory: needs skillwires
Knowsoft in chipjack: needs nothing
Knowsoft in headware memory: needs encephalon or datasoft link
Linguasoft in chipjack: needs nothing
Linguasoft in headware memory: needs encephalon or datasoft link

Per SRII rules you can use a datajack in place of a chipjack, however the
datajacks in Shadowtech cannot be used unless you also have an encephalon
or I/O subprocessor.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I'll stop trying to make a difference.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 17
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:23:14 +0100
At 11:48 11/02/1998 +0100, you wrote:
<<KASNIPPETYSNIP!>>

>No, it works like this:
>
>Activesoft in chipjack: needs skillwires
>Activesoft in headware memory: needs skillwires
>Knowsoft in chipjack: needs nothing
>Knowsoft in headware memory: needs encephalon or datasoft link
>Linguasoft in chipjack: needs nothing
>Linguasoft in headware memory: needs encephalon or datasoft link
>
>Per SRII rules you can use a datajack in place of a chipjack, however the
>datajacks in Shadowtech cannot be used unless you also have an encephalon
>or I/O subprocessor.

**GURTH! I LOVE YOU! (Well, not like that, bucha get what I mean... ;))...

One question that's left unanswered tho, what's the use of a datajack then?
I mean, the Datajack and chipjack have the same essence and normal costs
(Don't have the BBB here, so I could be wrong).....

And, on another note, watching TV at sunday morning which does not contains
cartoons would overload my neural network.... ;)

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/index.htm
IDM
Male

PS How come Gobbo say the H-word for the Netherlands and he doesn't get
Thwapped? ;)
Message no. 18
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:38:00 -0500
J. G. du Chatinier didst sayeth:
>One question that's left unanswered tho, what's the use of a datajack then?
>I mean, the Datajack and chipjack have the same essence and normal costs
>(Don't have the BBB here, so I could be wrong).....


A datajack lets you do all the fun things that require a direct neural
interface, decking and rigging in particular.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe Swinging Sociopath for Fun
-Tech Priest in Training
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
you've sold your soul, now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice T
Message no. 19
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:50:13 +0100
>**GURTH! I LOVE YOU! (Well, not like that, bucha get what I mean... ;))...

Je jette un voile pudique sur cette scene... :) (sorry, I don't know how to
translate it... :)

>One question that's left unanswered tho, what's the use of a datajack then?
>I mean, the Datajack and chipjack have the same essence and normal costs
>(Don't have the BBB here, so I could be wrong).....

I think Gurth meant that :
* Datajack is the equivalent of a plug (like for the telephone...).
That means it deals with signals.
* Chipjack is the equivalent of a disk drive.
That means it deals with data.

>And, on another note, watching TV at sunday morning which does not contains
>cartoons would overload my neural network.... ;)

???


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 20
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:42:36 -0600
Gurth wrote:
>
> Mon goose said on 11:57/10 Feb 98...
>
> > I personally slighty disadgree with Gurth about the skillwires- if you
> > have a Shadowtech datajack (which is a data-port only, with NO handling
> > hardware for USING any 'soft) and skillwires, you still need something
> > to "route" the data to your skillwires. ALL the other jack sorts
> > include hardware sufficient for this, though- hence thier slightly
> > higher essnce cost.
>
> I don't allow chips to be plugged into datajacks -- it doesn't make sense
> to me that you can put a chip into something designed to accept a plug.
> Just try sticking a chip into the headphone connector of your walkman (or
> CD-ROM drive), you'll see what I mean.
>
> Also, allowing chips to be put into datajacks removes the need for anyone
> to get a chipjack, because a datajack is more versatile.

Just make an cheapo piece of gear external chip reader that hooks into a
standard Data jack.
It's also a slightly inferior interface IMO the need does exist say you
have a mage who while they
did take some cyberware into their system consider a chip jack a waste
of time. They would rather have
the cyber eyes (with the works .5 essence) and a generic high quality
data jack (.25 essence) While this mage might be able to get the chip
jack it could also effect their magic if the doctor messes up.
which is a lose of power and very bad so they don't want to take the
risk.

--

Never Appeal to a man's "better nature" he may not have one.
Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage.
Message no. 21
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:20:47 +0100
>PS How come Gobbo say the H-word for the Netherlands and he doesn't get
>Thwapped? ;)
>
You mean Holland ???
*THWAP*
Pfweh.....Just quick enough....
Message no. 22
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:39:33 PST
>Quothe Gurth<
>Activesoft in chipjack: needs skillwires
>Activesoft in headware memory: needs skillwires
>Knowsoft in chipjack: needs nothing
>Knowsoft in headware memory: needs encephalon or datasoft link
>Linguasoft in chipjack: needs nothing
>Linguasoft in headware memory: needs encephalon or datasoft link
>
>Per SRII rules you can use a datajack in place of a chipjack, however
>the datajacks in Shadowtech cannot be used unless you also have an
>encephalon or I/O subprocessor.

I don't think the I/O spu or encephalon in and of itself grants soft use
from headware memeory.

The I/O spu's main purpose is acsses to headware memory, which the
Shadowtech datajacks DON'T give. Its a "bus". If all you want is to
deck, drive, or (sim)dream, you don't need it. You can also "store and
spew" without it. But the data can't go fron memory to your BRAIN, or
certain other wares.

No soft in headware mememory can be acsessed unless you have an I/O SPU
(or datasoft link) . An encephalon, datasoft link, or (possibly) 'soft
specific 'jack is also needed to "use" the info.

(I say "possibly" because chipjacks and softlinks do have the hardware
needed to use the info, but its up to the gm if the info can be routed
from another source through that hardware. I'd say its cool, because
chipjacks include a "level 0" encephalon, and softlinks are fancy
chipjacks.)

You could also use a chip in any sort of 'jack directly with your
encephalon. Note that this meens you only need one chipjack to use a
'soft in ANY datajack, since it comes with an encephalon!

An I/O spu alone will NOT fill this function : therefore the SR2
datajack can't serve as a chipjack all by itself. This actually makes
chipjacks and softlinks pretty popular, as if you don't have one, you
NEED a (seperate) enceplaon to use softs.




BTW, Gurth, I rather like the "no softs in jacks idea", but could see
some sort of reader that "played" a soft that you could plug into, for
uploads or real time use. Kool, IMO- it leads to the "cable-head" stuff
beloved of SR artists.

We already play with a similar thing that holds multiple softs and
cables to a 'jack- we call it a "soft jukebox" because that's basically
what it does. Sorta like a cd changer for your softs. Very handy when
your wearing a helmet or environmental protection suit, and need acsess
to more softs than you have 'jacks or memory. Of course, the "changing"
takes time- a simple action plus twice the normal load delay. Cost
about 2000+ 200 per soft held, generally holds 6-18 softs. Such a
device would also be needed with the Optical scanning or Iduction
datajacks from Cybertechnology.


WHEW! Does that FINALLY bring us up to date (2061) on this issue?
I know this is going in MY faq!



Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 23
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:35:09 +0000
And verily, did Lort Gob hastily scribble thusly...
|
|>PS How come Gobbo say the H-word for the Netherlands and he doesn't get
|>Thwapped? ;)
|>

Perhaps Gobbo *IS* in Holland????
(As opposed to somewhere else in the netherlands)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 24
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:42:19 EST
> I don't think the I/O spu or encephalon in and of itself grants soft
> use from headware memeory.
>
<snip detailed explanation>

Okay, I'll accept most of this. EXCEPT, the description for
encephalon says that it allows for skillsoft use from headware
memory.

So your I/O spu point is made (with me at least), but not your
encephalon. And as far as I know, there is no "level 0"
encephalon...the DJ has a lvl0 I/O SPU, but no encephalon.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 25
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:43:57 EST
> That brings up another compatibility issue for players: sure,
> nominally all headware is based around the 29XX0-series of
> processors, but maybe Ares-made 29650 chips use slightly different
> instruction sets than Fuchi's 29650s, so running an Ares-made
> skillsoft on a Fuchi encephalon results in less efficiency, like
> suffering a +1 to all TNs or a -1 to the skill's rating...

Cute, but a modifier of 1 is still too large. Such detail is lost in
the abstraction....

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 26
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:55:43 EST
> Je jette un voile pudique sur cette scene... :) (sorry, I don't know
> how to translate it... :)

Hrmm..."I throw a ?????? at such a scene...?" Hmm. Let's see if
Babelfish can translate it...Nope, it keeps crashing. Let's try
again with just voile pudique...

Hmm.."veil modest". So it ends up "I throw a modest veil at such a
scene." Yup. You were right. That doesn't translate well.

What are we talking here guys? "I blush"? "I blow chunks"? "I
turn
away?"

-=SwiftOne=-
the wannabe francophone
Message no. 27
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:10:25 +0100
At 21:35 11/02/1998 +0000, you wrote:
>And verily, did Lort Gob hastily scribble thusly...
>|
>|>PS How come Gobbo say the H-word for the Netherlands and he doesn't get
>|>Thwapped? ;)
>|>
>
>Perhaps Gobbo *IS* in Holland????
>(As opposed to somewhere else in the netherlands)
**Yeah, so where I when I said the H-word, but I still got thwapped *sniff*

-Jod
Message no. 28
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:29:22 +1000
J. G. du Chatinier writes:
>One question that's left unanswered tho, what's the use of a datajack then?
>I mean, the Datajack and chipjack have the same essence and normal costs
>(Don't have the BBB here, so I could be wrong).....


For chips: not much. IIRC, you can get chipbanks (a set of 4 chipjacks) for
about the same essence cost as a datajack (this is from Shadowtech).
However, you can't jack into computers/machines/anything else with just a
chipjack. It's only for chips.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 29
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:31:15 PST
>> I don't think the I/O spu or encephalon in and of itself grants soft
use from headware memeory.
>>
><snip detailed explanation of when and why both are needed>
>
>Okay, I'll accept most of this. EXCEPT, the description for
>encephalon says that it allows for skillsoft use from headware
>memory.
>

Yes, it does. Your right. And with its costs, it ought to!
The I/O spu doesn't actually seem to do much, except speed up I/O (DUH)
and maybe let your do stufff like write mental memeo to headware memory.

>So your I/O spu point is made (with me at least), but not your
>encephalon.

What point was it that i convinced you on? According to you, the I/O
spu plays no role in skillsoft use [except speeading up loading]. I can
live with that- thats actually how we have played.

> And as far as I know, there is no "level 0"
>encephalon...the DJ has a lvl0 I/O SPU, but no encephalon.
>

Yes, but the encephalon description states that "Older chipjacks..
contain an early (non bonus) version of the encephalon". I'd buy one of
those just for the ability to use skilsofts in a datajack.

I guess its up to your GM just what such "early" systems can and can't
do.

The utility of the I/O spu seems pretty limited, but I guess what your
saying makes sense- I'm glad, because I've actually made characters who
used softs from memory withonly an encephalon. The I/O spu seemed
crucial, but I guess its just a "coprocessor" kinda thing, not a
"bus".

HMM- another thing the I/O spu would be good for- it could be required
for the conection of "extra senses" to the tactical computer, limiting
such things to its I/O rating.


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Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:02:33 +0100
J. G. du Chatinier said on 15:23/11 Feb 98...

> One question that's left unanswered tho, what's the use of a datajack then?
> I mean, the Datajack and chipjack have the same essence and normal costs
> (Don't have the BBB here, so I could be wrong).....

That's why I ruled that in my game, datajacks can't be used to access
skillsofts unless you do it via an adapter or a computer. If you allow
chips to be pluged into a datajack, it maked the chipjack useless: a
datajack does the same things and more, for the same price.

Softlinks OTOH would still be useful since they can hold more than one
chip at higher ratings, and the rating 1 costs less than a datajack.

> And, on another note, watching TV at sunday morning which does not contains
> cartoons would overload my neural network.... ;)

I just watch TMF :)

> PS How come Gobbo say the H-word for the Netherlands and he doesn't get
> Thwapped? ;)

Read between the lines (Gob didn't, judging by his reply).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
That's just fine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:02:33 +0100
Mon goose said on 12:39/11 Feb 98...

> >Per SRII rules you can use a datajack in place of a chipjack, however
> >the datajacks in Shadowtech cannot be used unless you also have an
> >encephalon or I/O subprocessor.
>
> I don't think the I/O spu or encephalon in and of itself grants soft use
> from headware memeory.

That's not what I said. I said you need an I/O SPU or an encephalon to use
a skillchip plugged into a Shadowtech datajack. The reason I said that is
two-fold: first, the text for the encephalon specifically states the thing
can be used to access skillsofts, in the fourth paragraph of its
description.
Second, you can use a skillchip from an SRII datajack, which is said (in
Shadowtech) to contain a level 0 I/O SPU.

> BTW, Gurth, I rather like the "no softs in jacks idea", but could see
> some sort of reader that "played" a soft that you could plug into, for
> uploads or real time use. Kool, IMO- it leads to the "cable-head" stuff
> beloved of SR artists.

I allow chips to be plugged into computers which in turn are plugged into
the datajack; the computer doesn't do much more than route the data to the
datajack, so perhaps a specialized box would be on the market too. For
that reason, in my article in TSS I added an adapter that plugs into a
datajack and holds a chip in the other end.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
That's just fine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 32
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:52:15 +0000
> Yes, it does. Your right. And with its costs, it ought to!

Wow. I'm right. <marks down date>

> What point was it that i convinced you on? According to you, the I/O
> spu plays no role in skillsoft use [except speeading up loading]. I can
> live with that- thats actually how we have played.

Yup. Look at what it is called I/O (in and out) Sub-Processor. So
it speeds things up, reduces collisions, etc.

> Yes, but the encephalon description states that "Older chipjacks..
> contain an early (non bonus) version of the encephalon". I'd buy one of
> those just for the ability to use skilsofts in a datajack.
Erm...Okay. so this means that you can't use a 'soft in memory if
you only have a softlink? Or does it too contain a "basic"
encephalon...

> HMM- another thing the I/O spu would be good for- it could be required
> for the conection of "extra senses" to the tactical computer, limiting
> such things to its I/O rating.

Good concept there.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 33
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:39:17 +0100
>And verily, did Lort Gob hastily scribble thusly...
>|
>|>PS How come Gobbo say the H-word for the Netherlands and he doesn't get
>|>Thwapped? ;)
>|>
>
>Perhaps Gobbo *IS* in Holland????
>(As opposed to somewhere else in the netherlands)

In fact, I am....Noord-Holand, to be exaclty...And so is Jod.

Lort Gob
teunissen@***.nl
Message no. 34
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:39:18 +0100
>>And verily, did Lort Gob hastily scribble thusly...
>>|
>>|>PS How come Gobbo say the H-word for the Netherlands and he doesn't get
>>|>Thwapped? ;)
>>|>
>>
>>Perhaps Gobbo *IS* in Holland????
>>(As opposed to somewhere else in the netherlands)
>**Yeah, so where I when I said the H-word, but I still got thwapped *sniff*
>
>-Jod

That's just the difference between you and me....

LG
Message no. 35
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skillsofts..
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:50:32 PST
>That's not what I said. I said you need an I/O SPU or an encephalon to
use a skillchip plugged into a Shadowtech datajack. The reason I said
that is two-fold: first, the text for the encephalon specifically states
the thing can be used to access skillsofts, in the fourth >paragraph of
its description.

Yeah, my bad on that one. Encepahlon does it all, except activesofts.
Just how much the "early version" included with the chipjack does is up
to the GM. It probably only works for softs in that jack, or the SR2
datasoft-link would not have been needed.

The softlink from shadowtech explicitely "contains all the necessary
hardware for .... skillsofts and datachips...". That might mean you can
use 'softs from headware memory if you have a softlink.

>Second, you can use a skillchip from an SRII datajack, which is said
>(in Shadowtech) to contain a level 0 I/O SPU.
>

AFAIK, with JUST a datajack, regerdless of the presence of an I/O spu,
you can not USE a 'soft of any kind. With an I/O you have enough acsess
to READ the data, maybe telling that its a certain kind of 'soft, but
you can't use the skill.


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 36
From: gray_ghost007@*****.net gray_ghost007@*****.net
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:12:13 -0500 (CDT)
I'm looking for equipment that would allow a character to build
skillsofts just for himsellf. I'm looking for equipment to purchase as
the game progresses. Once equipment complete then moving slowly into
building programs.   I don't want to run to a fixer for roleplaying
skillsofts (like playing piano) but have a detailed area of my character
that progresses with him. Example: my character starts really growing in
his knowledge/love of Modern Jazz and wants to create a skillsoft that
follows the key of a band and plays jazz chords along with them. So, am
I stuck with a fixer for life or is there equipment that could help?.

(Covert Ops) "Always leave your enemies with the unnerving fact that
they never saw you coming… or going." - Gray Ghost
Message no. 37
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:52:04 -0500
:I'm looking for equipment that would allow a character to build
:skillsofts just for himsellf. I'm looking for equipment to purchase as
:the game progresses. Once equipment complete then moving slowly into
:building programs. I don't want to run to a fixer for roleplaying
:skillsofts (like playing piano) but have a detailed area of my character
:that progresses with him.

There are no hard rules for the equpiment or tasks used in creating
skillsofts from scratch, or even making copies of commercialy aquired
skillsofts.
My own feeling is you'd need a good simsense recording facility (and a
"star", to record the "wet record" or memories of the skill in action)
and a
mainframe computer (to translate them into encoding that skillsofts can
use). A cybernetics workshop and assorted chip cookers would proabaly be
needed to "burn" and construct the actual chips once you had the "source
code".


:Example: my character starts really growing in
:his knowledge/love of Modern Jazz and wants to create a skillsoft that
:follows the key of a band and plays jazz chords along with them. So, am
:I stuck with a fixer for life or is there equipment that could help?.

For now, I'd just aquire (acsess to, proabaly not ownership of) any and
all of the above equipment, and have some of the actual work be done by an
NPC with a "voodo technolgy" skill whose function you don't need rules for.
Working with contacts is as good as doing it yourself, right? In any case,
a big library of simsense wet record recording of Jazz greats playing would
be fun to have (talk about "feeling the groove!"), would probably sell well
on a limited market, and would be a helpful thing to aquire before creating
a Jazz skillsoft. I'm sure normal Jazz Music skill softs are avialible
legally, no fixer required, as are fairly good "autosynths" that can fill in
as a band member. Shadowbeat would be the book to consult, of course.
The next tech book slated for release is "Man and Machine"- if you can
wait, that's probably your best bet for finding more info on the details of
skillsofts creation. A few novels or adventures may include fictional
refrences to skillsoft creation; 2XS, and Dreamchipper might be places to
start.



Mongoose
Message no. 38
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 18:41:48 EDT
In a message dated 5/15/99 12:12:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gray_ghost007@*****.net writes:

<< I'm looking for equipment that would allow a character to build
skillsofts just for himsellf. I'm looking for equipment to purchase as
the game progresses. Once equipment complete then moving slowly into
building programs.   I don't want to run to a fixer for roleplaying
skillsofts (like playing piano) but have a detailed area of my character
that progresses with him. Example: my character starts really growing in
his knowledge/love of Modern Jazz and wants to create a skillsoft that
follows the key of a band and plays jazz chords along with them. So, am
I stuck with a fixer for life or is there equipment that could help?.

(Covert Ops) "Always leave your enemies with the unnerving fact that
they never saw you coming… or going." - Gray Ghost >>

A "Programmable Biofeedback ASIST" unit might help, if turned in REVERSE
(recording the memories, etc, rather than imprinting them). Rules for that
are in Shadowbeat, IIRC.

Also, any of the SimSense recording rigs would provide useful data for active
skills; again, rules can be found in Shadowbeat.

Lastly: the same as for writing any OTHER program: a big, fast, godawful
expensive computer to take the raw DATA, and program out an "expert system"
reference ... both to take in data from your senses (ears, in the case of the
jazzsoft you described), process it, and then select the proper responses ...
then DO them. That'd make the jazzsoft an Activesoft, btw. To merely KNOW
about the right responses, and not actually PLAY them, a Knowsoft might work.

So. Simsense recording gear, and/or a PAB unit, and a computer for the
programming.

And maybe the skillsofts needed to USE them? <g>

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 39
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:53:46 -0500
> The guy in out game also he also has skillwires.

Mongoose! What the hell was that? :)

___________________________________
I told you this morality of mine would kill us all.
Message no. 40
From: Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:21:18 -0500
abortion_engine wrote:
>
> > The guy in out game also he also has skillwires.
>
> Mongoose! What the hell was that? :)

I'm not Mongoose, but I'd think that was the result of too much blood
in the caffiene stream. :)

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 41
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:26:30 -0500
> > > The guy in out game also he also has skillwires.
> >
> > Mongoose! What the hell was that? :)
>
> I'm not Mongoose, but I'd think that was the result of too much blood
> in the caffiene stream. :)
>
That's entirely possible; do you know how hard it is to find Mountain Dew in
this stupid city!?
Message no. 42
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:20:41 -0600
:abortion_engine wrote:
:>
:> > The guy in out game also he also has skillwires.
:>
:> Mongoose! What the hell was that? :)
:
:I'm not Mongoose, but I'd think that was the result of too much blood
:in the caffiene stream. :)


What, now I'm expected to crank our flawless prose all the time? Krap,
ai'tn no- dam wae i"m duuing thet.

Mongoose
Message no. 43
From: stevenhad@*****.co.uk (Steve)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:45:54 +0000 (GMT)
Couple of questions I hope you can clarify for me.

Is the task pool provided by the chipjack expert
driver limited to adding a number of dice equal to or
less than the rating of the chip it's boosting?

And do you the +1 dice from customisation onto that
limit?

If you have a DIMAP equipped chip and an expert
driver on a combat skill chip can you use both pools
at once? (Nnnoooo! is probably the best answer here...
;)

Can you connect a skillsoft jukebox up to an expert
driven chipjack and get the bonuses through that?

Do Chipjack expert drivers work at all with
activesofts?

Steve

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Message no. 44
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:26:10 +0100
According to Steve, on Wed, 29 Jan 2003 the word on the street was...

> Is the task pool provided by the chipjack expert
> driver limited to adding a number of dice equal to or
> less than the rating of the chip it's boosting?

On page 48 of Man & Machine, it says that task pools use the normal dice
pool rules from SR3, so I'd assume that to mean you can't use more dice
than the base skill rating.

> And do you the +1 dice from customisation onto that
> limit?

If it modifies the skill rating, then yes; if it gives an extra die to roll
for the skill, then no. You have to keep in mind that the two are not the
same.

> If you have a DIMAP equipped chip and an expert
> driver on a combat skill chip can you use both pools
> at once? (Nnnoooo! is probably the best answer here...
> ;)

The answer here is "no", for the simple reason that the combat skill chip
won't get the task pool -- that pool only applies to technical, B/R,
knowledge and language skills (again, see p. 48, M&M). But if you have a
dice pool (not task pool) that can be used with one of the mentioned skill
categories*, and an expert driver, I don't think there's a rule that says
you can't use both of them for a single roll. I guess it's up to the GM.

* For example because you use more types of dice pool than the standard
ones.

> Can you connect a skillsoft jukebox up to an expert
> driven chipjack and get the bonuses through that?

I'd think so. Mr. Wiers, you still around? :)

> Do Chipjack expert drivers work at all with
> activesofts?

See above: if it's a technical or B/R skill, then yes. Otherwise, no.

All that said, IMHO chipjack expert drivers should be banned, as they're
far too powerful: for only 30,000 nuyen you get up to 6 extra dice for
_any_ skill you care to plug into it (as long as it's in the right category,
of course), which means that you can save TONS of money on skillsofts.
Instead of buying rating 6 activesofts at 6^2 x 3 x 100 = 10,800 nuyen each,
you buy them at rating 3 for 2,700 nuyen, and spend 15,000 on a rating 3
expert driver. After only two chips, you're already ahead by 3,900 nuyen
(IOW, another rating 3 skillsoft plus change) yet you can roll exactly the
same number of dice.

All this would not really be a problem if these were skills you get to use
in combat situations a lot, where pools run out. But very few of the skills
you get task pool dice for, will be used in situations where you can't take
a break to refresh that pool...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wat wil die man in hemelsnaam?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 45
From: stevenhad@*****.co.uk (Steve)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:49:57 +0100 (BST)
All this talk about cloning and VR training got me
thinking about the sort of impact skillsofts would
have on the workforce. I came up with one conclusion
- there must exist an 'enterprise edition' version of
most skillsofts.

Think about it - people could be hired based on the
quality of their skillwires and probably more
importantly their psychological profile and social
skills. Then whenever they plug into the company
network they acquire whatever skill's the sysadmin has
cleared them for. 'You're a programmer today Mr
Brown. Next week we'd like you to be an accountant or
loss adjuster - your choice.'

The big Mega-corps would love this. You wouldn't
have to pay someone the sort of wage a genuinely
skilled person could expect, if you built in a BTL
style personality override you'd have a dedicated
loyal wage slave who didn't even get to remember the
secrets he saw at work. Questionable morality on that
last one, but I'm certain the volunteers would be
queueing in the street! Go to work, plug in, plug
out, go home! Tempting....

Steve

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Message no. 46
From: w32.antidote.b@***.de (W32.Antidote.B)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:54:36 +0200
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:49:57 +0100 (BST), Steve <stevenhad@*****.co.uk>
wrote:

> Think about it - people could be hired based on the
> quality of their skillwires and probably more
> importantly their psychological profile and social
> skills. Then whenever they plug into the company
> network they acquire whatever skill's the sysadmin has
> cleared them for. 'You're a programmer today Mr
> Brown. Next week we'd like you to be an accountant or
> loss adjuster - your choice.'

While this idea is quite interesting, I do not believe
in a lot of skillwire usage in the sixth world. Why? Because
I would interpreted the rules and the flavor texts in a way,
that this programs are just plain dumb and can not handle
the more complex tasks e.g. a job as a programmer includes.
So while they would be able to type a simple and efficient
code, they should not get the "problem-solution-thinking" a
real human programmer has. That would be a different skillsoft
I guess. And according to the rules, the skillsofts are "overwriting"
the natural abilites of a user, so he might get troubles with
developing a solution for the problem on his own, because the soft
might affect his natural "problem-solution-thinking."
An other point is, that you have to get used to a soft, so the
"today this - tomorrow that" idea does not really fit in my opinion.
But the last part is just based on flavor texts.

Cure..
The Antidote
Message no. 47
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:57:48 +0200
Am Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:49:57 +0100 (BST) hat Steve <stevenhad@*****.co.uk>
geschrieben:

> All this talk about cloning and VR training got me
> thinking about the sort of impact skillsofts would
> have on the workforce. I came up with one conclusion
> - there must exist an 'enterprise edition' version of
> most skillsofts.

Very likely. But "just" with more options, as described in CC, instead of
just the skillsoft itself.

> Think about it - people could be hired based on the
> quality of their skillwires and probably more
> importantly their psychological profile and social
> skills. Then whenever they plug into the company
> network they acquire whatever skill's the sysadmin has
> cleared them for. 'You're a programmer today Mr
> Brown. Next week we'd like you to be an accountant or
> loss adjuster - your choice.'

Not quite. A skillsoft just "replays" what was recorded on it. Cc describes
it very well: The skillsoft "Car" needs to be recorded in various ways (all
possible situations a driver might come into), and is prepared for access
via skillwires.

But that doesn't make you creative. A programmer needs creativity in the
first place, and knows his programming languages inside out, thier
limitation and how to overcome them, if needed. A skillsoft "C++ 6" doesn't
make you very creative in creating software.

But with stuff that is largely automated, like driving, shooting and the
like, a skillsoft can replace training. I guess that a corp's guards can
use this stuff exessively: A skill for pistols, one for assault rifles, one
for gunnery.

> The big Mega-corps would love this. You wouldn't
> have to pay someone the sort of wage a genuinely
> skilled person could expect, if you built in a BTL
> style personality override you'd have a dedicated
> loyal wage slave who didn't even get to remember the
> secrets he saw at work. Questionable morality on that
> last one, but I'm certain the volunteers would be
> queueing in the street! Go to work, plug in, plug
> out, go home! Tempting....

True. And I bet that any megacorp will love doing that, until a major
corporational site is closed down by unkown forces.

So, I guess it will be used, but not for scientific work. An accountant can
work just fine with it (maybe even learning what he does. Training softs
without loosing any efficency!), but a programmer working on a SK wouldn't
be of much use.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 48
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:30:21 +0100
Phillip Gawlowski wrote:
> But that doesn't make you creative. A programmer needs creativity in
> the first place, and knows his programming languages inside out, thier
> limitation and how to overcome them, if needed. A skillsoft "C++ 6"
> doesn't make you very creative in creating software.

True, but you would probably write effecient code, and be good at
debugging other code. The creative person would be higher up in the
project team, and would be delegating the coding tasks to these coding
hacks.

"Ok Bob, you are to code a routine that takes these inputs, calculates x
and outputs y... get cracking" etc.

Thus the skillsofted minions produce nice tightly coded routines that
slot into the final app, under the creative direction of a superior,
saving him from doing the journeyman work of writing code.

Matt


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Message no. 49
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:01:27 +0200
Am Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:30:21 +0100 hat Matthew Bond
<mattgbond@********.com> geschrieben:

> True, but you would probably write effecient code, and be good at
> debugging other code. The creative person would be higher up in the
> project team, and would be delegating the coding tasks to these coding
> hacks.

An unskilled trainee can do that, and will result in a trained and
experienced coder.

> Thus the skillsofted minions produce nice tightly coded routines that
> slot into the final app, under the creative direction of a superior,
> saving him from doing the journeyman work of writing code.

Well, no.

Software design aint so easy, you see. Writing code takes 10% of the time.
The design the most.
And a coder must know it from the hard, no matter how low in the hirarchy
he is.


--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 50
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:03:17 -0300
> The big Mega-corps would love this. You wouldn't
> have to pay someone the sort of wage a genuinely
> skilled person could expect, if you built in a BTL
> style personality override you'd have a dedicated
> loyal wage slave who didn't even get to remember the
> secrets he saw at work. Questionable morality on that
> last one, but I'm certain the volunteers would be
> queueing in the street! Go to work, plug in, plug
> out, go home! Tempting....
>
> Steve

You could do it more cheaply, at least for manual labor, with a simple
VR-goggle interface linked to either a pocket secretary or a factory
server, containing a sort of instruction program. While Joe Wage-Slave
is working, little tags keep popping up in his field of view, saying
things like "touch this tool here", or "insert this piece here".
That'd
allow even those people with none of the necessary skills to do a
passable job at things like assembling electronic gadgets.

The good side for the corp is that they can pay the people piss-poor
wages, after all they're just acting as glorified robot arms. Plus, it
avoids all the hassle with clones or personality overrides. The good
side for the workers is that at least they get a job.

The system can also act as a sort of on-the-job training, tough it'd
take more time for the workers to actually learn the skill, since their
programs are not focused on that. A really inhumane corp could fire all
workers who learn their skills and demand higher pay. In this way, you
either have a bunch of desperate skilled technicians without jobs, or a
bunch or unhappy technicians stuck doing menial labor because they don't
have any other choice. Both can lend their services to the shadows,
either full- or part-time, making this a good background for techie
characters or contacts.

--
Bira
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br ou
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html
Message no. 51
From: stevenhad@*****.co.uk (Steve)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:26:05 +0100 (BST)
<snip>

> While this idea is quite interesting, I do not
> believe
> in a lot of skillwire usage in the sixth world. Why?
> Because
> I would interpreted the rules and the flavor texts
> in a way,
> that this programs are just plain dumb and can not
> handle
> the more complex tasks e.g. a job as a programmer
> includes.
> So while they would be able to type a simple and
> efficient
> code, they should not get the
> "problem-solution-thinking" a
> real human programmer has. That would be a different
> skillsoft
> I guess. And according to the rules, the skillsofts
> are "overwriting"
> the natural abilites of a user, so he might get
> troubles with
> developing a solution for the problem on his own,
> because the soft
> might affect his natural
> "problem-solution-thinking."
> An other point is, that you have to get used to a
> soft, so the
> "today this - tomorrow that" idea does not really
> fit in my opinion.
> But the last part is just based on flavor texts.
>
> Cure..
> The Antidote

I while I do agree that a chipped skill would often be
seen as inferior to somebody who was genuinely
skilled, I think software project managers would kill
to have a methodical and identical skill set when
designing major projects with a few hundred
programmers. A bit of inspiration can be important,
but probably not as important as rigidly sticking to
coding guidelines if you want to avoid bugs.

I would also say that the variety and level of the
skillchips available probably does mean there is a
fair amount of initiative built into them - how else
would someone have a skill of 6?

Steve

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Message no. 52
From: w32.antidote.b@***.de (W32.Antidote.B)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:53:59 +0200
<snip&snap>
> I while I do agree that a chipped skill would often be
> seen as inferior to somebody who was genuinely
> skilled, I think software project managers would kill
> to have a methodical and identical skill set when
> designing major projects with a few hundred
> programmers. A bit of inspiration can be important,
> but probably not as important as rigidly sticking to
> coding guidelines if you want to avoid bugs.
>
As mentioned in another reply to this topic, only 10% of
a project are real coding. I learn this in school as well
as from my friends, who work in the programming business.
When you just want good and efficient code you can also start
a validator (I think that's the name for it) that checks
the synax and so on in your code.
Another handicap a chipped coder would certainly have is the
fact that he can probably not remember very good, what he did
while chipped. While this might be good for some extra security
it also means that he cannot always comment or explain why he
changed this piece of code. Due to the nature of the chips, that
could mean that he uses old-fashioned code, because the chip
said "This is SOTA, Mr. Anderson. Code this way, please."

> I would also say that the variety and level of the
> skillchips available probably does mean there is a
> fair amount of initiative built into them - how else
> would someone have a skill of 6?
>

Well, I always defined a higher rating of skillsoft in that way
that it just has more pre-set situations recorded on the chip, with
perhaps a *little* bit more comparing which recordes situation does
match the actual situation more precise. But I'm not that fond of
chips anyway.
Message no. 53
From: Marc.Renouf@********.com (Renouf, Marc A)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:34:59 -0400
On 6/23/2003 12:01 PM, Phillip Gawlowski wrote:

>> True, but you would probably write effecient code, and be good at
>> debugging other code. The creative person would be higher up in the
>> project team, and would be delegating the coding tasks to these coding
>> hacks.

> An unskilled trainee can do that, and will result in a trained and
> experienced coder.

Perhaps, but there are still be tasks that you will need code monkeys for.

> Software design aint so easy, you see. Writing code takes 10% of the
> time. The design the most. And a coder must know it from the hard, no >
matter how low in the hirarchy he is.

Spoken like a true software designer. :) Sorry to say, design doesn't take
nearly as long as implementation and debugging. True, good, solid design is
critical. But you still need coders to write all of the crap functionality
that the designer builds into the product. When actually writing software,
individual coders are given very simple, very compartmentalized tasks. They
are told to write a function that does X, given a certain set of inputs and
returning a certain number of outputs.

One of the things that has disconnected modern designers from actual coding
(and led to your 10% estimate) is the use of code generators and programming
suites that "take care of" a lot of niggling little details. But have you
looked at some of that code? It sucks. It's *way* too big, it tends to be
inefficient as hell, and it's a pain in the ass to optimize. Sure, you can
drag and drop widgets into a GUI, but take a look at the resulting code some
time. You'll be horrified. You can get away with these kinds of approaches
because computers keep getting faster and having more memory, but given the
processing requirements of VR-intensive programming in Shadowrun, I'd
imagine that tightly-written code would be pretty important.

Modular design helps, because you can keep modules or functions from older
programs and re-use them if possible. But even if you're working in a code
house that keeps around old modules in a way that they are easily locatable
and accessible to your coders (yeah, wouldn't *that* be nice), someone
almost invariably still needs to go through the scut-work of modifying the
code (because it almost never works perfectly for your application straight
out of the box).

If I'm a program designer who is concerned with finishing the job on time
and under budget, I don't care if a coder working under me doesn't have the
finest grasp of memory architecture. So long as he can write a module that
is efficient and doesn't leak memory, I'm happy.

Marc Renouf
Message no. 54
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 10:22:25 +0200
Renouf, Marc A wrote:
> On 6/23/2003 12:01 PM, Phillip Gawlowski wrote:
> > Software design aint so easy, you see. Writing code takes 10% of the
> > time. The design the most. And a coder must know it from
> the hard, no >
> matter how low in the hirarchy he is.
>
> Spoken like a true software designer. :) Sorry to say,
> design doesn't take
> nearly as long as implementation and debugging. True, good,
> solid design is
> critical. But you still need coders to write all of the crap
> functionality
> that the designer builds into the product. When actually
> writing software,
> individual coders are given very simple, very
> compartmentalized tasks. They
> are told to write a function that does X, given a certain set
> of inputs and
> returning a certain number of outputs.

Actually, in theory, implementation (coding) should require the least amount
of time in the SDLC. If your coding is taking up 50% or more of your project
plan then your design is incomplete. Due to time-constraints and the need to
reach market, many smaller companies will sacrifice design time in this
manner, but that doesn't make it best practice.

> One of the things that has disconnected modern designers from
> actual coding
> (and led to your 10% estimate) is the use of code generators
> and programming
> suites that "take care of" a lot of niggling little details.
> But have you
> looked at some of that code? It sucks. It's *way* too big,
> it tends to be
> inefficient as hell, and it's a pain in the ass to optimize.
> Sure, you can
> drag and drop widgets into a GUI, but take a look at the
> resulting code some
> time. You'll be horrified. You can get away with these
> kinds of approaches
> because computers keep getting faster and having more memory,
> but given the
> processing requirements of VR-intensive programming in Shadowrun, I'd
> imagine that tightly-written code would be pretty important.
>
> Modular design helps, because you can keep modules or
> functions from older
> programs and re-use them if possible. But even if you're
> working in a code
> house that keeps around old modules in a way that they are
> easily locatable
> and accessible to your coders (yeah, wouldn't *that* be nice), someone
> almost invariably still needs to go through the scut-work of
> modifying the
> code (because it almost never works perfectly for your
> application straight
> out of the box).

Then the person who wrote it in the first place isn't very good.
Code-reusability is exactly that: if designed and implemented generically,
it will work straight out of the box.

> If I'm a program designer who is concerned with finishing the
> job on time
> and under budget, I don't care if a coder working under me
> doesn't have the
> finest grasp of memory architecture. So long as he can write
> a module that
> is efficient and doesn't leak memory, I'm happy.

I think the point he's trying to make here is that software engineering is a
creative process, something that is largely misunderstood by the mass
public. Yes, it is a science. But it's also an art of sorts. While you may
be able to employ skillsoft-based programmers to churn out simple code like
your example above, your architects, designers, and project leaders are NOT
going to cut it with just skillsofts.

Then look to the modern software industry. More and more smaller companies,
and even large ones such as Microsoft, are structured around small modular
teams responsible for a group of components or even an entire product. The
reason for this is that it's more cost-efficient and productive to have a
small team of highly skilled and motivated people working on a piece of
software than having massive teams of coding grunts with a couple of
supervisors watching over them.

The old-school IBM way of doing things has long since been proven inferior.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon


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Message no. 55
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Skillsofts
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 10:51:51 +0200
According to Renouf, Marc A, on Tuesday 24 June 2003 22:34 the word on the
street was...

> One of the things that has disconnected modern designers from actual
> coding (and led to your 10% estimate) is the use of code generators and
> programming suites that "take care of" a lot of niggling little
details.
> But have you looked at some of that code? It sucks. It's *way* too
> big, it tends to be inefficient as hell, and it's a pain in the ass to
> optimize. Sure, you can drag and drop widgets into a GUI, but take a
> look at the resulting code some time. You'll be horrified.

There's a very good line on the Opera site somewhere, and though it's about
HTML, I'd say it applies here as well; it goes something like "WYSIWYG
doesn't mean that what you don't see, doesn't matter."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hooligans (zn) baldadige watervogel
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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