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Message no. 1
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires and the CED
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:48:05 -0700
I remember that there was a conversation on how abused these systems could
be, but I cannot find it, for the life of me. I searched the archives as
best I could, but I cannot seem to find any mention of it. Does anyone
remember when the conversation took place? Was in on ShadowRN? Somewhere
else? Should I have my medication increased?

Zebulin
Message no. 2
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires and the CED
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 10:39:25 +0200
zebulingod wrote:

> I remember that there was a conversation on how abused these systems
> could
> be, but I cannot find it, for the life of me. I searched the archives
> as
> best I could, but I cannot seem to find any mention of it. Does anyone
> remember when the conversation took place? Was in on ShadowRN?
> Somewhere
> else? Should I have my medication increased?
>
> Zebulin

This discussion probably happened here, on DSF, on IRC and in a lot of
other places. I can't point you to an exact message in the archives,
but I can tell you where the problem lies.
The CED grants you access to a new dice pool of (CED rating) dice, to
use with ANY skill that's inserted in the corresponding chipjack. Now
for combat skills, that's already bad given that in addition to being
able to use a pool to attack, you still have ALL your combat pool
dedicated to dodging and resisting damage. With a CED 6 and Qui/Int/Wil
at 6, that's like having 15 CP dice.
But the CED becomes *really* ugly when used with non-combat skills,
because under normal conditions those skills don't have an associated
pool. With a CED 6 and rating 6 chips, you can roll 12 dice for
biotech, electronics, demolitions or any B/R skill... Meaning you're
far better than someone who's spent all his life honing his skills in
[insert domain here] (skill(s) estimated around 8).

A quick and effective fix is to simply allow CED users to access their
normal pools up to (rating) dice for the corresponding skill. For
example, someone with a CED 6 and rating 6 chips would be able to use
up to 6 of his combat pool dice when using his Pistols chip, but
wouldn't roll any additional dice when using his Biotech chip.

On a (more or less) related note, I find this quite stupid that the
CED is installed on a particular chipjack and not on a skillwire
system. Aside from the major headaches that happen when a player asks
if he can use his CED with a skill he's stored in headware memory (and
I won't even talk about multi-slot chipjacks, Jukeboxes, or dedicated
memory management cyberdecks implanted in cybernetic arms), the whole
idea is ridiculous. To make a computer analogy, it's akin to saying you
have a 3D accelerator card (3dfx-style) that's attached to a CD-ROM
drive (and not to the motherboard) and that only works with games
inserted in *this* drive.
Which is why in my games the CED is called "Skillwire Expert Driver".
</rant>

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires and the CED
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 11:12:13 +0200
According to zebulingod, on Friday 22 August 2003 23:48 the word on the
street was...

> I remember that there was a conversation on how abused these systems
> could be, but I cannot find it, for the life of me. I searched the
> archives as best I could, but I cannot seem to find any mention of it.
> Does anyone remember when the conversation took place? Was in on
> ShadowRN? Somewhere else? Should I have my medication increased?

It was here, but I don't remember when it took place. IIRC, it basically
revolved around the way you can double your skill by getting the (very
cheap for its bonuses) CED.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: flakjacket@***********.com (flakjacket@***********.com)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires and the CED
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:56:50 +0100 (BST)
Zebulingod wrote:

> I remember that there was a conversation on how abused these systems could
> be, but I cannot find it, for the life of me. I searched the archives as
> best I could, but I cannot seem to find any mention of it. Does anyone
> remember when the conversation took place? Was in on ShadowRN? Somewhere
> else?

Ah, the CED. Now that brings back some memories. :) Can't say about the others, but the
best/least complicated suggestion for this I heard on the lists was to treat the dice you
got from it as complimentary for the tests- need two sucesses to translate to a 'proper'
one and you have to at least get a single sucess with your regular skill dice.
Message no. 5
From: dreamrhythm@*******.com (Dream Rhythm)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires and the CED
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:08:07 -0400
Flakjacket wrote:

>Ah, the CED. Now that brings back some memories. :) Can't say about the
>others,
>but the best/least complicated suggestion for this I heard on the lists was
>to
>treat the dice you got from it as complimentary for the tests- need two
>sucesses
>to translate to a 'proper' one and you have to at least get a single sucess
>with
>your regular skill dice.

I just rule that it grants access to already existing Pools when using
chipped skills in that chipjack. Simple, and it works in my games. :)

Fortune

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Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires and the CED
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:37:59 +0200
According to Dream Rhythm, on Monday 25 August 2003 22:08 the word on the
street was...

> I just rule that it grants access to already existing Pools when using
> chipped skills in that chipjack. Simple, and it works in my games. :)

Do you also allow chipped skills that don't normally get an associated pool
to use pool dice? If not, then your solution is probably the best I've
heard so far...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires and the CED
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:44:57 +0200
Gurth wrote:

> According to Dream Rhythm, on Monday 25 August 2003 22:08 the word on
> the
> street was...
>
>> I just rule that it grants access to already existing Pools when using
>> chipped skills in that chipjack. Simple, and it works in my games. :)
>
> Do you also allow chipped skills that don't normally get an associated
> pool
> to use pool dice? If not, then your solution is probably the best I've
> heard so far...

The only pool one could access using chipped skills would be the
combat pool anyway, given that skillwires affect your body, not your
mind (meaning you can't use them while in the Matrix or while rigging,
so no hacking or control pools) and that magic skills can't be chipped
(bye bye magic pool).

Besides, looking at the list archives you'll find that I posted the
exact same solution 3 days ago (though nobody looked interested by it
-- got no replies :( ).

Anyway, I've got a question. Do you people allow chipped
charisma-linked skills such as Etiquette or Negociations? The whole
concept of it seems quite... Weird, not to say stupid.
"Shoot that guy with that gun" is a quantifiable problem, I'll even
say it can be solved mathematically (heh... I've got a character
concept based on that). "Get that guy to increase your pay by 5%
without threatening him", on the other hand...

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 8
From: Marc.Renouf@********.com (Renouf, Marc A)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires and the CED
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:47:08 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Max Noel [mailto:maxnoel_fr@*****.fr]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 5:45 AM
>
> Anyway, I've got a question. Do you people allow chipped
> charisma-linked skills such as Etiquette or Negociations? The whole
> concept of it seems quite... Weird, not to say stupid.
> "Shoot that guy with that gun" is a quantifiable
> problem, I'll even
> say it can be solved mathematically (heh... I've got a character
> concept based on that). "Get that guy to increase your pay by 5%
> without threatening him", on the other hand...

Etiquette and Negotiations are a lot more complicated than you might
imagine. Even subtle things like how you sit, whether you lean towards or
away from someone, whether you fidget, whether you make and cmaintain
eye-contact, etc can have a huge impact in how you are perceived by someone
else. And it's knowledge too, like "Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't tell him that I
really need this job." Or, "Hmm, maybe if I'm NOT cleaning my guns at the
meet I'll look more like a professional, and if I look more like a
professional, I'll get PAID like a professional."
And finally, it's as much about perception. Spotting your
counterpart's tics and tells, letting you know when he's not being totally
honest with you, or when he's dealing straight, or when he's being totally
serious when he says his price can't go any higher.

Marc
Message no. 9
From: danturek@*******.com (D. T)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires, and the CED
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:22:31 -0400
Wild Cat purred:

>Anyway, I've got a question. Do you people allow chipped charisma-linked
>skills such as Etiquette or >Negociations? The whole concept of it seems
>quite... Weird, not to say stupid. "Shoot that guy with that gun" is a
>quantifiable problem, I'll even say it can be solved mathematically
> >(heh... I've got a character concept based on that). "Get that guy to
>increase your pay by 5% without
>threatening him", on the other hand...

Anything there is a manual on I would allow, so regular Negotiations,
personal motivation, etc. yes.
On the other hand, anything that can't keep up to speed, like the ever
evolving lingo in City Speak or Etiquette (Street) no. Some I would even
allow, but say they are dated, such as Etiquette (Japanese) in San Franciso
after the pull out was ordered. A person with the skill could modify his
reaction as needed, but someone with a skillsoft I would give a +1 or +2 TN
modifier and people with the skill could make a check to notice the person
is chipped. I believe having the ECD is just like having the skill, so a
person with that would not suffer the modifiers.

But how hard is it to find certain skills on skillchip?
Is Car 6 as hard to find as Demolitions 6?
Why doesn't Athletics 6 completely wear the person out if their Body or
Strength is low?
Can a decker just get a skill jukebox and fill it with different computer
knowledge skills and get a lot of extra dice for tests?
Would megacorps just put some of those online for use by their own deckers?
Who goes around making a Stealth 6 chip? Teenage Cybered Ninjas?
Why does Negotiation depend on Willpower instead of Charisma?

oh well, now I'm losing focus and going off on tangents.

D

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Message no. 10
From: shirogr@*****.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires and the CED
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:11:01 -0700 (PDT)
--- Max Noel <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr> wrote:
> Anyway, I've got a question. Do you people allow
> chipped
> charisma-linked skills such as Etiquette or
> Negociations? The whole
> concept of it seems quite... Weird, not to say
> stupid.
> "Shoot that guy with that gun" is a quantifiable
> problem, I'll even
> say it can be solved mathematically (heh... I've got
> a character
> concept based on that). "Get that guy to increase
> your pay by 5%
> without threatening him", on the other hand...

The rules say at page 295 of the rulebook:
Activesofts replicate active skills such as Combat,
Physical,Technical or Vehicle skills.
So no, magical and negotiations skills cannot be
replicated. And I really think that the <<such as>>
point means <<only>> in this case. As always the GM
has the final word on this.Besides no matter how many
manuals you read if you don't have it in you, you will
fail at negotiations.


====

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Message no. 11
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires, and the CED
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:45:52 +0200
Am Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:22:31 -0400 hat D. T <danturek@*******.com>
geschrieben:

> But how hard is it to find certain skills on skillchip?

Cannon Companion (IIRC) hints at the cost.

> Is Car 6 as hard to find as Demolitions 6?

No. I'd judge it depends on how common a skill in "real life" is. You
generally find good drivers easily, but not demolition experts. And of
course the market would be limited: Everyone can use Car, but Demolitions
is only for military-style organizations (yeah, right).

> Why doesn't Athletics 6 completely wear the person out if their Body or
> Strength is low?

Because Skillwires feed on bioelectricity (Mand & Machine), and thus are
limited in how far they go. The faster you wear out, the less energy you
produce when you are not trained.

> Can a decker just get a skill jukebox and fill it with different computer
> knowledge skills and get a lot of extra dice for tests?

Yes. Multislot-Chipjacks are availlable. But these things share the
skillwire's bandwidth when more than one skillsoft is active.

> Would megacorps just put some of those online for use by their own
> deckers?

Probably. I'd say that this is one of the main sources for the fixer around
the corner to get his/her/its skillsofts.

> Who goes around making a Stealth 6 chip? Teenage Cybered Ninjas?

Nope, but intelligence agencies or other organizations using covert
operations.

> Why does Negotiation depend on Willpower instead of Charisma?

It's not so much a "looking good" contest but a "stare down" contest,
IMHO.
But you can change the dependency if you want. :)

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster From Hell and General Idiot
Message no. 12
From: dreamrhythm@*******.com (Dream Rhythm)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires and the CED
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:45:44 -0400
Gurth wrote:

>Do you also allow chipped skills that don't normally get an associated pool
>to use pool dice? If not, then your solution is probably the best I've
>heard so far...

No. I believe that is one of the main things that makes the CED unbalanced.
There is no reason for people with chipped skills to be potentially twice as
good at (non-Pool) skills as someone naturally trained to the same level.

Fortune

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Message no. 13
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Skills, Skillwires and the CED
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:08:19 +0200
According to Dream Rhythm, on Wednesday 27 August 2003 15:45 the word on
the street was...

> No. I believe that is one of the main things that makes the CED
> unbalanced. There is no reason for people with chipped skills to be
> potentially twice as good at (non-Pool) skills as someone naturally
> trained to the same level.

My thoughts exactly. A few years ago, soon after M&M was released, one of
my players made a character with skillwires and a CED, and we quickly
discovered exactly that snag. You can really just buy the wires and chips
at half the rating you want to roll...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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