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Message no. 1
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 06:51:54 -0700 (PDT)
I just finished reading "Black Madonna."

I have just one comment to offer.

Dear Mr. Sargent, Dear Mr. Gascoine:

Apparently, while writing this book, you operated under a slight
misapprehension. Let me offer you a clue.

"Black Madonna" is supposed to be a book about Shadowrun. It is *not*
supposed to be an episode of "Two Fat Ladies", nor is it supposed to serve
as a portable guide to fine English and Welsh cuisine. In general, when
writing a Shadowrun book, the descriptions of firefights should probably
outnumber the descriptions of fine repasts. Just a hint to save
your next book from being tossed across the room in disgust, as this one
was.

Love and Kisses,
--Number 10 Ox.





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Message no. 2
From: Rori Steel cullyn@*****.com.au
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:07:30 +0000 (GMT)
On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 06:51:54 -0700 (PDT), --Number 10 Ox wrote:

>I just finished reading "Black Madonna."
>I have just one comment to offer.

<Snip general taunt with sarcasm lace, in short... he didnt like the
book>

>Love and Kisses,

Nice touch ;> *grin*

Anyway... Ox, I appreciate your opinion.. i wish i had heard one like
that for a few other books ive read...

Is there anyone else who can offer an opinion on this book???
Is TSS doing a review of the book?

Cullyn
-Who by the way got his Longsleeve sRN shirt and is so happy with
it... Lady J... you did great! And also... to the shirt designer...
Dvixen... thank you so much... i cannot believe how great it looks on
the shirt.. its one thing to make a cool design.. but one that works
on a shirt is not the same thing. Thank you ladies both. It is
appreciated!
Message no. 3
From: John Hopson jwh9@*****.duke.edu
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:33:13 -0400
At 04:07 PM 8/10/1999 +0000, Rori Steel wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 06:51:54 -0700 (PDT), --Number 10 Ox wrote:
>
>>I just finished reading "Black Madonna."
>>I have just one comment to offer.
>
>Anyway... Ox, I appreciate your opinion.. i wish i had heard one like
>that for a few other books ive read...
>
>Is there anyone else who can offer an opinion on this book???
>Is TSS doing a review of the book?

I read it as I've read most of the shadowrun novels and will agree that
it's probably not the best of the bunch. One reason is that it deals with
a technological leap too big to fit easily into the shadowrun world. If
someone had cyberdeck technology capable of hacking a AAA megacorps
mainframe before their security even had a chance to respond, it would have
incredibly profound effects on the world. Most of the books deal with
things that can happen in the shadows, that don't radically upset the
balance of power. Once the effects of a novel reach a certain level, they
either have to be made a permanent part of the game world (ala The Dragon
Heart Trilogy) or they become a sort of parallel universe. If it's the
latter, what was the point of writing the novel in the first place if it's
not going to contribute to the world it's about?


John


-----------------------------------------------------------
You never had a chance to learn. They threw you in and told you the rules
and the first time they caught you off base they killed you. - Ernest
Hemingway
Message no. 4
From: Robert Blackberg Robert.Blackberg@***.fiserv.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:01:38 -0400
>>> Number Ten Ox <number_10_ox@**********.com> 08/10/99 09:51AM
>>>
> "Black Madonna" is supposed to be a book about Shadowrun. It is *not*
>supposed to be an episode of "Two Fat Ladies", nor is it supposed to serve
>as a portable guide to fine English and Welsh cuisine. In general, when
>writing a Shadowrun book, the descriptions of firefights should probably
>outnumber the descriptions of fine repasts. Just a hint to save
>your next book from being tossed across the room in disgust, as this one
>was.



Strange you should make this comparison, since one of the "Fat Ladies" has just
died of cancer:

From E! Online:

AUF WIEDERSEHEN: Celeb chef Jennifer Paterson, one of TV's they-can-believe-it's-butter
Two Fat Ladies, died today in London of cancer. She was 71.


</Stan voice>
You killed a fat lady...you BASTARD!
</Stan voice>

:-)

Robert (no cool tagline, just a plain line________________________)
Message no. 5
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:40:25 +700
>Is there anyone else who can offer an opinion on this book???

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451453735/o/qid“4321122/sr=8-2/002-5799470-1394044
Message no. 6
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:57:07 -0500
> "Black Madonna" is supposed to be a book about Shadowrun. It is *not*
> supposed to be an episode of "Two Fat Ladies", nor is it supposed to serve
> as a portable guide to fine English and Welsh cuisine. In general, when
> writing a Shadowrun book, the descriptions of firefights should probably
> outnumber the descriptions of fine repasts.

Funny...while I tend to agree that BLACK MADONNA was a wretched book (one of
the few SR novels I've bothered with), I rather liked its food values. Most
of my favorite speculative fiction and fantasy is the stuff with good food
values (just about anything by Steven Brust, for instance, has great food
value).

I didn't like BLACK MADONNA because the story bored hell out of me, as I
recall. It's been awhile, though, so it might have been something else.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 7
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:49:10 EDT
All this talk of hatred towards certain SR novels brings up an interesting
question: What is the favorite Shadowrun novel?

Maybe by examining what we see as the best of the novel series, we will
understand what the novels should strive towards in content and style and
plot.




-Twist
Message no. 8
From: John Hopson jwh9@*****.duke.edu
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:07:50 -0400
At 07:49 PM 8/10/99 EDT, Twist0059@***.com wrote:
>All this talk of hatred towards certain SR novels brings up an interesting
>question: What is the favorite Shadowrun novel?

"Into the shadows". Runs that made sense, with no deus ex machina and on
a scale that a player could appreciate. And good writing, especially
Stackpole's stories at the end.


John
Message no. 9
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:05:43 -0700 (PDT)
---Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> Maybe by examining what we see as the best of the novel series, we will
> understand what the novels should strive towards in content and style and
> plot.
Except we won't come to a consensus, Twist. :) To each his own, YMMV, and
all that.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

I, personally, haven't picked up a Shadowrun novel yet that I truly
enjoyed as a work of literature. _The Secrets of Power_ Trilogy came
closest, perhaps, but there still was the sense of hearing dice rolling in
the background, and the main character for most of the book was SO damn
dense about his magical ability I couldn't help but wish Dog would drop
him already. _Never Trust An Elf_ was fun, but the use of Sean Laverty as
deus ex machina annoyed me a bit. _Nosferatu_ was unabashedly awful, with
cardboard cutouts of characters strutting all over the novel. _Worlds
Without End_ was all right as such things go, but I must admit I was
awfully disappointed in it: Caroline Spector never _did_ anything with the
historical tie-ins, and I kept envisioning what a writer like Tim Powers
might be able to do with it.

(That's OK, though. The Decker in my group, who's been wanting a secret
society to join, has been contacted by a group calling themselves the Sons
of Mortimer, who seem convinced that the world is run by negro immortals.
He didn't contact them back, not being of a particularly racist bent, but
some of the information they provided sparked his interest. He's currently
digging at a trail of data which will eventually lead him to Sir Francis
Walsingham and John Dee participating in a down-cycle hunt, which ought to
scramble his brains sufficiently. :))


> -Twist

--Number 10.
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Message no. 10
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:47:31 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 10:14:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
number_10_ox@**********.com writes:

> > Maybe by examining what we see as the best of the novel series, we will
> > understand what the novels should strive towards in content and style
and
> > plot.
> Except we won't come to a consensus, Twist. :) To each his own, YMMV, and
> all that.


I ever strive for world peace and continue to believe in the ability of a
human being to rise above baseness and engage in fulfilling harmony with his
fellow man. But then someone pisses me off and I have to shoot them.




-Twist
Message no. 11
From: grahamdrew grahamdrew@*********.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:31:58 -0400
Number Ten Ox wrote:
>
> I just finished reading "Black Madonna."
>
> I have just one comment to offer.
>
> Dear Mr. Sargent, Dear Mr. Gascoine:
>
> Apparently, while writing this book, you operated under a slight
> misapprehension. Let me offer you a clue.
>
> "Black Madonna" is supposed to be a book about Shadowrun. It is
*not*
> supposed to be an episode of "Two Fat Ladies", nor is it supposed to serve
> as a portable guide to fine English and Welsh cuisine. In general, when
> writing a Shadowrun book, the descriptions of firefights should probably
> outnumber the descriptions of fine repasts. Just a hint to save
> your next book from being tossed across the room in disgust, as this one
> was.
>
> Love and Kisses,
> --Number 10 Ox.

I felt much the same way. The Brittish banter got on my nerves, the
plot was on a scale that reduced it to sub-par, and the action was non
existant. I've read Streets Of Blood, another novel following the same
characters, and I didn't think it was quite as poor as Black Maddona
(although still nowhere on par with 2XS or others), but have refrained
from subjecting myself to Nosferetu. Does it follow the same wreched
path as the other two?

>
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

--
If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
redesigned to do many things badly.
-Paranoia R&D
Datastore 8 - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Maze/1673/
Message no. 12
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:26:16 +0200
On Tuesday, August 10, 1999 6:33 PM, John Hopson
[SMTP:jwh9@*****.duke.edu] wrote:
> At 04:07 PM 8/10/1999 +0000, Rori Steel wrote:
> I read it as I've read most of the shadowrun novels and will
agree that
> it's probably not the best of the bunch. One reason is that it deals
> with
> a technological leap too big to fit easily into the shadowrun world.
If
> someone had cyberdeck technology capable of hacking a AAA megacorps
> mainframe before their security even had a chance to respond, it would
> have
> incredibly profound effects on the world. Most of the books deal with
> things that can happen in the shadows, that don't radically upset the
> balance of power. Once the effects of a novel reach a certain level,
> they
> either have to be made a permanent part of the game world (ala The
> Dragon
> Heart Trilogy) or they become a sort of parallel universe. If it's
the
> latter, what was the point of writing the novel in the first place if
> it's
> not going to contribute to the world it's about?
>
>
> John
>
I thought all considered the book wasn't that bad, but I still have a
lot of novels to go so I might change my mind as my reading progresses.
Another thing is that I love the decker and matrix concept of shadowrun
and that's probably why I finished the book and appreciated the matrix
parts, though the end was disappointing

I must agree on the technological leap though and that's something that
bothers me. Because I have some players who have a lot of time to spare
and read a lot of the SR novels. The problem then is that they consider
everything they read as a fact in the world of shadowrun and this has
caused more than one discussion already.

Any one of you had these trouble.

--
Sven De Herdt :)

SRCG v0.2 SR1! SR2++ SR3++ h b++>+++ B>+ UB->++ IE+(-) RN+(-) dk++>+++
sa- ma++ sh++ ad+ ri+ mc- m+ gm+>++(+++) M-(+)
Message no. 13
From: Robin_Schnöckelborg r.schnoeckelborg@***.net
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:28:43 +0200
>Because I have some players who have a lot of time to spare
> and read a lot of the SR novels. The problem then is that they consider
> everything they read as a fact in the world of shadowrun and this has
> caused more than one discussion already.
>
> Any one of you had these trouble.
>
> --
> Sven De Herdt :)

i have read all sr novels, i think (btw, i liked black madonna a lot! it
ranks just behind the dragon heart saga (breath-taking!), and burning
bright).

my group used to see the novels as "secondary rules". if there was a problem
with interpreting the rules, we looked on how the novels described the
situation. can a mage do this or that in astral space? if it was in the
books, it was okay.
we changed that as the books became more and more "off-rules", sometimes
they clearly opposed the rules. they are merely fiction and should be used
to get a better feel on how to describe the sr world.
as always, you dont have to stick to the novels OR the rules, of course.

robin
Message no. 14
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:03:32 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/99 4:29:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be writes:

> I must agree on the technological leap though and that's something that
> bothers me. Because I have some players who have a lot of time to spare
> and read a lot of the SR novels. The problem then is that they consider
> everything they read as a fact in the world of shadowrun and this has
> caused more than one discussion already.
>
> Any one of you had these trouble.
>


Oh, come on, don't give me opportunities like that to start ranting on the SR
novels again. (Notice I didn't bring up DHS, so I showed constraint, oh
damn......)

One thing I found truly odd about the whole Black Madonna book was the
mention of Leo's Otaku doing some "Great Work" that seemed connected to the
Horror-thread. Now, it's been mentioned before in SR novels (WWE, I think)
that the Matrix would be some help in the coming battle. Myself, I can't see
it making any sense. Anyone else?





-Twist
"Anemic deckers wage war against hellspawn astral demons: On the next Jenny
Jones."
Message no. 15
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:23:44 -0400
At 12:03 PM 8/12/99 , Twist0059@***.com wrote:
>One thing I found truly odd about the whole Black Madonna book was the
>mention of Leo's Otaku doing some "Great Work" that seemed connected to the
>Horror-thread. Now, it's been mentioned before in SR novels (WWE, I think)
>that the Matrix would be some help in the coming battle. Myself, I can't see
>it making any sense. Anyone else?
>-Twist
>"Anemic deckers wage war against hellspawn astral demons: On the next Jenny
>Jones."

The Great Work that they were talking about was the compound that Leo was
working out of. He knows that the Enemy are coming (sooner, or after DHT
later) and he wants to be a survivor. So he was trying to build a kaer out
in the middle of nowhere. Of course it also had StA missiles and various
other armaments that tehy didn't have during the fourth age.

One big benefit of the Matrix is the instant communications. During
Earthdawn how long did it take to pass around the plans for the kaers? How
did one let the other ones know that most of the Horrors had left? That and
a lot more could be done through the Matrix. One of the biggest weapons
that the Horrors had before was lack of information between the people they
were eating. Its a lot scarier to know that some million year old monster
from the depths of the Netherworlds is out to get you that an astral entity
that has these particular characteristics and can be theoretically defeated
like so.

In the Sixth Age, knowledge is power.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 16
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:54:50 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/1999 11:05:34 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> In a message dated 8/12/99 4:29:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be writes:
>
> > I must agree on the technological leap though and that's something that
> > bothers me. Because I have some players who have a lot of time to spare
> > and read a lot of the SR novels. The problem then is that they consider
> > everything they read as a fact in the world of shadowrun and this has
> > caused more than one discussion already.
> >
> > Any one of you had these trouble.
> >
>
>
> Oh, come on, don't give me opportunities like that to start ranting on the
> SR
> novels again. (Notice I didn't bring up DHS, so I showed constraint, oh
> damn......)
>
> One thing I found truly odd about the whole Black Madonna book was the
> mention of Leo's Otaku doing some "Great Work" that seemed connected to
the
> Horror-thread. Now, it's been mentioned before in SR novels (WWE, I
think)
> that the Matrix would be some help in the coming battle. Myself, I can't
> see
> it making any sense. Anyone else?

Why certainly Twist, and if you would pay attention, that "Great Work" is
much bigger than that, and includes the reasons that Hestaby (mentioned later
on down the road) was involved. And yes, the Matrix would be an IMMENSE
help. There is a comment made by Harlequin in *one* of the books (I don't
recall which, VR2 maybe?) that the Matrix wasn't around the last time and
that this world's exchange and exploitation of information/knowledge was FAR
in advance of the last.

Additionally, for all they'd like, the Horroi cannot do anything in the
Matrix unless they partake in the forms necessary to do such. Examples of
this would have to include...

Horror Marked (Sense Link) options with targets. And if I understand Sense
Link correctly, being damaged by Psychotropic and/or Black IC forms would be
just as detrimental to the Horroi as it would the Marked target.

Possession of said being that is using the Matrix link ... again, potentially
damage to not only the Host, but to the Possessor as well.

Direct, physical, implantation of cybernetic hardware. Hmmm...I know the
Horroi are into pain, discomfort, torture and the like, but NOT to themselves
directly. And besides, what street doc is going to perform that on a subject
that is not likely to have a simple, consistent, enough materialization level
to perform that kind of surgery upon. Additionally, I see the Horroi, being
a spirit-type being, not able to even have such surgical modification(s)
performable upon themselves.

Furthermore, do you remember the concept that the "Blood Elves" took upon
themselves? Those mergences with the Wood/Thorn? Matrix/ASIST interface
creates a simsensual/RAS override situation concerning concerning direct and
indirect sensation. In order for the Horroi to "feed" off of their victims,
the victims have to be feedable upon (I know, those last two words are a bit
strange). Individuals like Otaku and BTL-users might suddenly have a whole
range of options in dealing or combating the mind/perception altering powers
of the Horroi.

Sure, the Matrix isn't going to provide much protection against a directly
physical altercation. But against some of the other stuff ... I'd say it
would make for an interesting weapon.

-K
Message no. 17
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:01:43 CST
>From: Twist0059@***.com

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

J
U
S
T

I
N

C
A
S
E

>
>
>Oh, come on, don't give me opportunities like that to start ranting on the
>SR
>novels again. (Notice I didn't bring up DHS, so I showed constraint, oh
>damn......)

Heh, old habits die hard? :)


>One thing I found truly odd about the whole Black Madonna book was the
>mention of Leo's Otaku doing some "Great Work" that seemed connected to the
>Horror-thread. Now, it's been mentioned before in SR novels (WWE, I think)
>that the Matrix would be some help in the coming battle. Myself, I can't
>see
>it making any sense. Anyone else?

The Great Work was memtioned in Crossroads as well. It seemed to be some
sort of shelter against the Horrors where only the best and brightest (as
decided by Leonardo) could be safe. I believe that the plans were destroyed
when Lofwyr killed Leonardo and torched his valley. That reminds me, I
wonder what happened to the characters from Black Madonna who were supposed
to be working with the elf??

>
>

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 18
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:41:43 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/99 2:55:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> Why certainly Twist, and if you would pay attention, that "Great Work" is
> much bigger than that, and includes the reasons that Hestaby (mentioned
> later
> on down the road) was involved. And yes, the Matrix would be an IMMENSE
> help. There is a comment made by Harlequin in *one* of the books (I don't
> recall which, VR2 maybe?) that the Matrix wasn't around the last time and
> that this world's exchange and exploitation of information/knowledge was
FAR
>
> in advance of the last.


That was in VR2. What I meant was, it seems easy for the Horrors to smash
and cripple the Matrix hardlines and power sources. They could go astral to
sneak up on any sentry gun, appear behind it, and destroy it. FAB would be a
great weapon against them, but they'd probably know some ripping Sterilze
spells. Other than communication and coordination, I don't see the Matrix
actually helping to destroy the horrors physically. And I don't understand
what the Deep Resonance could do to stop them either, also hinted at in the
aforementioned VR2. If the DR was some sort of Matrix-manifest spirit, I
could understand its interest in such things, but being what it is (or what
we know of it, rather), why would it care of the coming horrors? They
certainly wouldn't get any pleasure from killing the memory cores of an AI.
But maybe the DR fears for its children, none of which can wield magic.




-Twist
Message no. 19
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:27:28 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/1999 6:43:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> What I meant was, it seems easy for the Horrors to smash
> and cripple the Matrix hardlines and power sources. <snip>

> If the DR was some sort of Matrix-manifest spirit, I
> could understand its interest in such things, but being what it is (or
what
> we know of it, rather), why would it care of the coming horrors? They
> certainly wouldn't get any pleasure from killing the memory cores of an
AI.
> But maybe the DR fears for its children, none of which can wield magic.

Actually Twist, you answered your own question here ... I snipped the stuff
in between your own answer and your own question...

-K
Message no. 20
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:38:27 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/99 8:28:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> They
> > certainly wouldn't get any pleasure from killing the memory cores of an
> AI.
> > But maybe the DR fears for its children, none of which can wield magic.
>
> Actually Twist, you answered your own question here ... I snipped the
stuff
> in between your own answer and your own question...
>
> -K


That would be a reason for it to join the fray, but how effective
Matrix-mounted combat would be (Sentry guns) and the susceptibility of
hardline communications makes the Matrix not some great Horror-fighting tool,
IMO. Of course, SatLinks would work very well, provided the Horrors (as
suggested by Eye Witness) are as harmed by the manawarp of outer space as
projecting magicians.




-Twist
Message no. 21
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:53:40 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/1999 7:39:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

>
> That would be a reason for it to join the fray, but how effective
> Matrix-mounted combat would be (Sentry guns) and the susceptibility of
> hardline communications makes the Matrix not some great Horror-fighting
tool,
>
> IMO. Of course, SatLinks would work very well, provided the Horrors (as
> suggested by Eye Witness) are as harmed by the manawarp of outer space as
> projecting magicians.

For some reason, I just don't think you quite see the totality of this. I
admitted that in a *direct* physical confrontation, the Matrix might not be a
big tool against the Horroi. However, the information exchange would be
unparalleled and unbeatable by the Horroi without getting some immediate
assistance from the population at large.

And, as for the concept of Mana-Warps harming the Horroi. Ultimately, I
would say so for *MOST* of them. The reason and logic that I have for this
is that they require the existence of higher-end mana fields to traverse from
their metaplane to the "Realm of Earth" (love that term). Some of the bigger
ones, like Verjigorm or Ubyr might not be too bothered by it, while others
(such as Nystul) would flee from the boundaries of Space at their best
possible speed.

Additionally, though "Threading" doesn't exist in SR a this point, given the
problems and the rate of informational exchange, I can see it readily
becoming one of the first Metamagics to be broadcast across the Matrix should
such a conflict ever arise.

For that matter folks, "Threading" to me could be reverse-engineered using a
basis from Shielding.

-K
Message no. 22
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:09:07 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/99 8:54:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> Some of the bigger
> ones, like Verjigorm or Ubyr might not be too bothered by it, while others
> (such as Nystul) would flee from the boundaries of Space at their best
> possible speed.


Nystul? The BTech line developer?? Or do you mean Nebis?



-Twist
Message no. 23
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:29:50 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippola(TM)>
> And, as for the concept of Mana-Warps harming the Horroi.
Ultimately, I would say so for *MOST* of them. The reason and logic
that I have for this is that they require the existence of higher-end
mana fields to traverse from their metaplane to the "Realm of Earth"
(love that term). Some of the bigger ones, like Verjigorm or Ubyr
might not be too bothered by it, while others (such as Nystul) would
flee from the boundaries of Space at their best possible speed.
<Snipples(TM)>
> -K

You're kidding! They didn't REALLY create a Horror called "Nystul", did
they???

*Doc' busts a gut laughing...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
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Message no. 24
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:40:50 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/1999 8:11:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> > Some of the bigger
> > ones, like Verjigorm or Ubyr might not be too bothered by it, while
> others
> > (such as Nystul) would flee from the boundaries of Space at their best
> > possible speed.
>
>
> Nystul? The BTech line developer?? Or do you mean Nebis?

I might, I don't have the book nearby ATM...although thinking of Bryan as a
"Horroi" is quite an image in and unto itself... ;-P

-K
Message no. 25
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:04:04 -0700
>> > Some of the bigger
>> > ones, like Verjigorm or Ubyr might not be too bothered by it, while
>> others
>> > (such as Nystul) would flee from the boundaries of Space at their best
>> > possible speed.

>> Nystul? The BTech line developer?? Or do you mean Nebis?

>I might, I don't have the book nearby ATM...although thinking of Bryan as a
>"Horroi" is quite an image in and unto itself... ;-P

For some reason, I just can't be frightened of a Horroi named Nystul....


--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com - dvixen@****.com
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 26
From: Paolo Marcucci thatpaolo@****.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:15:38 -0700
> For some reason, I just can't be frightened of a Horroi named Nystul....

Yeah, it looks too cuddly :)

--Paolo
Message no. 27
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:29:05 +1000
>> > Some of the bigger
>> > ones, like Verjigorm or Ubyr might not be too bothered by it, while
>> others
>> > (such as Nystul) would flee from the boundaries of Space at their best
>> > possible speed.
>>
>>
>> Nystul? The BTech line developer?? Or do you mean Nebis?
>
>I might, I don't have the book nearby ATM...although thinking of Bryan as a
>"Horroi" is quite an image in and unto itself... ;-P

Could have been his brother Mike, who doesn't have a very good rep in the
RPG industry AFAIK (unlike Bryan, who appears to be universally beloved and
justifiably so...)

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 28
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:21:03 -0500
48 hours go so quickly...

> >> Nystul? The BTech line developer?? Or do you mean Nebis?
> >
> >I might, I don't have the book nearby ATM...although thinking of Bryan as
> a
> >"Horroi" is quite an image in and unto itself... ;-P
>
> Could have been his brother Mike, who doesn't have a very good rep in the
> RPG industry AFAIK (unlike Bryan, who appears to be universally beloved
> and
> justifiably so...)
>
Um, out of curiosity, what exactly has Mike Nystul done that has so
dishonored his reputation? I'm not familiar with his work unless I've just
forgotten.
Message no. 29
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:37:24 EDT
In a message dated 8/13/99 12:27:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
markf@******.com writes:

> Um, out of curiosity, what exactly has Mike Nystul done that has so
> dishonored his reputation? I'm not familiar with his work unless I've just
> forgotten.


Mike Nystul worked on the Bug City book, I believe.




-Twist
Message no. 30
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 22:11:46 EDT
In a message dated 8/13/99 12:40:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> > Um, out of curiosity, what exactly has Mike Nystul done that has so
> > dishonored his reputation? I'm not familiar with his work unless I've
> just
> > forgotten.
>
>
> Mike Nystul worked on the Bug City book, I believe.

going from memory here but;
I think it was their father that was mentioned as an original AD&Der (as in
"Nystuls Magic Aura", though he should be reprimanded for putting his name to
such a low-level spell)
Message no. 31
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Skipping Black Madonna.
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:25:12 -0500
> In a message dated 8/13/99 12:27:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> markf@******.com writes:
>
> > Um, out of curiosity, what exactly has Mike Nystul done that has so
> > dishonored his reputation? I'm not familiar with his work unless I've
> just
> > forgotten.
>
>
> Mike Nystul worked on the Bug City book, I believe.
>
Was that a bad book to ruin his rep? I thought it was pretty good.

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