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Message no. 1
From: Kevin Dole kdole@***.vsc.edu
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:46:14 EST5EDT
Has anyone converted Battletech stats ('mechs, vehicles and
Aerotech-era Fighters) into Shadowrun? I've had this idea for
rewriting the history of the Succesor States and the Clans a little to
include the Sxith World.

Picture this- a lance of Warhammers runing away from a single
guy wearing only light armour and carrying a side arm, because his
magic is a match for them.


Kevin Dole /:|
kdole@***.vsc.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death, and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
Message no. 2
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:12:40 -0500 (EST)
On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Kevin Dole wrote:

> Has anyone converted Battletech stats ('mechs, vehicles and
> Aerotech-era Fighters) into Shadowrun?

Yup. I converted the 'mechs for a sci-fi campaign I was
running using Shadowrun rules. And let me tell ya, Shadowrun has a
technology curve that makes 'mechs much meaner. >:)

> Picture this- a lance of Warhammers runing away from a single
> guy wearing only light armour and carrying a side arm, because his
> magic is a match for them.

Actually, it's not. Especially with the new magic vs. vehicles
rules in Rigger2/3rd Edition SR, it's hard for magic to affect military
vehicles because of their inordinately high Body rating. But then again,
they don't get a resistance roll anymore, so it sort of balances out.
Anyway, if you're interested in hearing how I did the conversion,
contact me via private e-mail.

Marc
Message no. 3
From: TarotZero ... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:42:12 CST
Kevin Dole wrote, scribled, jotted, or something like that...

>>Has anyone converted Battletech stats ('mechs, vehicles and
Aerotech-era Fighters) into Shadowrun?<<

I toyed around with the idea a year or so back, with the Mech Prototypes
being a R&D project under developement by, you guessed it, Ares
Macrotech. They were part of a killer run that my team at the time got
saddled with...{insert evil laugh here}

Unfortunately, I lost the stats for the things (based off SR2's vehicle
rules) and I no longer have access to anything Battletech related.


SlAiN
...The Last of the Red Hot...Wait a Second, What am I supposed to be the
Last of Today?

===========================================It's 6:34 PM (somewhere).
Do you know why my appartment blew up yesterday? If you do, call me at
674-478-9773. 2000 nuyen reward for info, any info!
===========================================

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 4
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:00:11 -0700
> Actually, it's not. Especially with the new magic vs. vehicles
> rules in Rigger2/3rd Edition SR, it's hard for magic to affect military
> vehicles because of their inordinately high Body rating.

Keep in mind too that if your magic will not be as affective on a
direct assault..an indirect attack could be more devastating...
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 5
From: Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 19:56:01 -0500
On 2/22/99 9:46 am, Kevin Dole said:

> Has anyone converted Battletech stats ('mechs, vehicles and
>Aerotech-era Fighters) into Shadowrun? I've had this idea for
>rewriting the history of the Succesor States and the Clans a little to
>include the Sxith World.
>
> Picture this- a lance of Warhammers runing away from a single
>guy wearing only light armour and carrying a side arm, because his
>magic is a match for them.
>
>
>Kevin Dole /:|
>kdole@***.vsc.edu
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
>"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death, and his second cousin,
>Dismemberment."
>
>
>
Of course that is negating the 1 in 2000000 chance that any schmuck with
a light pistol can take down any Mech. Roll a 12 to cause damage, Roll a
12 for location (center Torso Critical), and Roll a 12 for number of
critical locations (3 locations) and get any combination of 3 Engine or 2
Gyro hits and por little ole mechwarrior is looking for a new ride.

Steve
Message no. 6
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:52:56 EST
In a message dated 2/22/99 6:48:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, kdole@***.vsc.edu
writes:

> Has anyone converted Battletech stats ('mechs, vehicles and
> Aerotech-era Fighters) into Shadowrun? I've had this idea for
> rewriting the history of the Succesor States and the Clans a little to
> include the Sxith World.
I had converted some few things to SR, but not for the game itself, more for
the players to run in a Btech tourney. Since they were mentioned in Seattle,
the players got interested. Riggers change the game quite a bit, but mages
were not included in the mix, since it was a "virtual game"
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:01:14 -0700 (MST)
Steve Collins wrote:
/
/ Of course that is negating the 1 in 2000000 chance that any schmuck with
/ a light pistol can take down any Mech. Roll a 12 to cause damage, Roll a
/ 12 for location (center Torso Critical), and Roll a 12 for number of
/ critical locations (3 locations) and get any combination of 3 Engine or 2
/ Gyro hits and por little ole mechwarrior is looking for a new ride.

Even a Light Mech will have enough armor to completely deflect the bullet
from a light pistol (remember, if the armor rating of a vehicle is greater
than the power of an attack (non anti-vehicle weapon) the attack fails).

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 8
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:08:15 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, David Buehrer wrote:

> Even a Light Mech will have enough armor to completely deflect the bullet
> from a light pistol (remember, if the armor rating of a vehicle is greater
> than the power of an attack (non anti-vehicle weapon) the attack fails).

Well, it doesn't *totally* fail. It can still scratch the paint.

;)

Marc
Message no. 9
From: Bob Tockley zzdeden@*******.com.au
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:04:29 +1000
> Well, it doesn't *totally* fail. It can still scratch the paint.

And the mechwarrior inside, unbalanced by the violence he's seen and by the
scratch on the hand-painted mech armour that took him 209 hours to
complete, turns suicidal because of it - immediately deactivating the
safeties on his fusion core and causing a catastrophic explosion to
result...

(>) ARKHAM
"War is man's answer to boredom. Technology is man's answer to the lack
of war."
Message no. 10
From: Kama kama@*******.net
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:15:59 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Bob Tockley wrote:

> > Well, it doesn't *totally* fail. It can still scratch the paint.
>
> And the mechwarrior inside, unbalanced by the violence he's seen and by the
> scratch on the hand-painted mech armour that took him 209 hours to
> complete, turns suicidal because of it - immediately deactivating the
> safeties on his fusion core and causing a catastrophic explosion to
> result...
>

Don't laugh to hard. When my husband was living on Guam there was a loca
scandel involving the downing of an F-18 (did I get that right? - feel fre
to correct me). Anyway, it seems that teh local park ranger had gotten
overly irritated at the low passes aircraft were making over the park. So
he decided to take a "harmless" pot shot at teh multi-million doaar craft
with his trusty huntin' gun. However, the lucky bullet managed to hit a
hydrollic line leading to the planes landing gear, resulting in the
landing gear no longer functioning. The plane had to be ditched. Teh park
ranger subsequently lost his job and I believe there were osme charges
regarding the destruction of government property.

The sad part is, if he hadn't bragged about what he had shot down, they
might not have ever figured out who was responsible.

In any case, while it is very hard to account for in the mechanics of any
game, it is possible for a vastly under powered weapon to destroy a
vehicle it shouldn't be able to in real life.

Kama
Keeper of the Dicebag from Hell (tm)
Message no. 11
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:46:06 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Kama wrote:

> Don't laugh to hard...

[SNIP amusing park-ranger story]

> In any case, while it is very hard to account for in the mechanics of any
> game, it is possible for a vastly under powered weapon to destroy a
> vehicle it shouldn't be able to in real life.

While I tend to agree, I would point out that there's a big
difference between shooting at a heavily armored vehicle and shooting at
an aircraft (which is essentially made out of sheet aluminum). The same
park ranger could have shot at an M1A1 all day long and probably done
very little.

Marc
Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:32:30 +0100
According to David Buehrer, at 7:01 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Even a Light Mech will have enough armor to completely deflect the bullet
> from a light pistol (remember, if the armor rating of a vehicle is greater
> than the power of an attack (non anti-vehicle weapon) the attack fails).

Yep, except that there's a rule in BattleTech that gives a die roll chance
of doing a small amount (one or two points) of damage to a 'Mech with an
infantry weapon. (It's in Tech Readout 3026 for one place.) My guess is
this represents the chance of the bullet hitting something fragile enough
to be damaged by the weapon, like going into an air intake or knocking the
glass out of a sensor. When introducing BattleMechs in SR for whatever
reason, IMHO it's a good idea to keep this rule just so PCs without a
'Mech of their own aren't _completely_ helpless.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:32:31 +0100
According to Kama, at 10:15 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

[snip "I'm huntin' F-18s"]
> In any case, while it is very hard to account for in the mechanics of any
> game, it is possible for a vastly under powered weapon to destroy a
> vehicle it shouldn't be able to in real life.

The catch, though, is that an aircraft, even a combat aircraft, is
relatively unarmored. Important parts of the airframe (cockpit, fuel
tanks, etc.) will be armor-plated in combat aircraft, but the other the
remaining parts, as well as any civilian aircraft, are about as thick, if
not thinner, than the bodywork of a car, and made of lighter (i.e. less
penetration-resistant) materials.

OTOH, fire a hunting rifle at a lightly armored military vehicle and most
likely it won't get through the main armor -- it might destroy some
exterior fittings like a headlight, antenna, or periscope, but that's
often it.

What I find strange, though, is that the aircraft went down after being
hit by just a single bullet taking out a system which AFAIK usually has a
back-up, if not more than one, to prevent exactly this from happening.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:58:33 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Gurth wrote:

> Yep, except that there's a rule in BattleTech that gives a die roll chance
> of doing a small amount (one or two points) of damage to a 'Mech with an
> infantry weapon.
[SNIP]
> When introducing BattleMechs in SR for whatever reason, IMHO it's a
> good idea to keep this rule just so PCs without a 'Mech of their own
> aren't _completely_ helpless.

Silly Gurth, that's what called shots are for. :)

Marc
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:39:59 -0700 (MST)
Gurth wrote:
/
/ ...there's a rule in BattleTech that gives a die roll chance
/ of doing a small amount (one or two points) of damage to a 'Mech with an
/ infantry weapon. (It's in Tech Readout 3026 for one place.) My guess is
/ this represents the chance of the bullet hitting something fragile enough
/ to be damaged by the weapon, like going into an air intake or knocking the
/ glass out of a sensor. When introducing BattleMechs in SR for whatever
/ reason, IMHO it's a good idea to keep this rule just so PCs without a
/ 'Mech of their own aren't _completely_ helpless.

Are you sure you're a GM? :)

I figure if a PC is confronted directly by a Mech and they don't run for it
or surrender, then that's their problem.

As for being completely helpless, any creative PC could deal with a Mech.
Remember the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi? :)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 16
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:17:49 EST
In a message dated 2/23/99 6:00:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:

> Steve Collins wrote:
> /
> / Of course that is negating the 1 in 2000000 chance that any schmuck with
> / a light pistol can take down any Mech. Roll a 12 to cause damage, Roll a
> / 12 for location (center Torso Critical), and Roll a 12 for number of
> / critical locations (3 locations) and get any combination of 3 Engine or 2
> / Gyro hits and por little ole mechwarrior is looking for a new ride.
>
> Even a Light Mech will have enough armor to completely deflect the bullet
> from a light pistol (remember, if the armor rating of a vehicle is greater
> than the power of an attack (non anti-vehicle weapon) the attack fails).
>
actually he was referencing the BT game rule, where any personal weapon can do
1 point of mech damage on a successful shot if he rolls 12 on 2d6(added
togethor) given Btech rules, the scenario above is entirely possible IN BATTLE
TECH :-)
(note, some like that happened once, so trust me :-)
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:42 +0100
According to Marc Renouf, at 13:58 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> > When introducing BattleMechs in SR for whatever reason, IMHO it's a
> > good idea to keep this rule just so PCs without a 'Mech of their own
> > aren't _completely_ helpless.
>
> Silly Gurth, that's what called shots are for. :)

If I were to put BattleMechs into SR, I'd do both -- assign a chance of
causing damage (as per TR3026), but increasing that chance if a called
shot is successful.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:42 +0100
According to David Buehrer, at 14:39 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Are you sure you're a GM? :)

I'm a GM who likes to give people a chance to accomplish anything they can
come up with, provided I can see a reason for it to work. Shooting at a
'Mech with a pistol I could see causing a point of damage, sure.

> I figure if a PC is confronted directly by a Mech and they don't run for it
> or surrender, then that's their problem.

That's true as well. (Also note that, if you do the math, BattleMech
weapons don't cause nearly the damage they should to MechWarrior
characters, BTW.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:01:25 EST
In a message dated 2/24/99 3:15:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> That's true as well. (Also note that, if you do the math, BattleMech
> weapons don't cause nearly the damage they should to MechWarrior
> characters, BTW.)
>
particlarily irrititing in certain circumstances, especially concerning
elementals in Mechwarrior.
To inject just a little SR.
You do realize that the weapns in SR probably have better range and damage
than the Btech ones? (Centurion at least seemed to have pretty long ranges,
decent damage, but I guess that means little here and now eh?)
Message no. 20
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:06:20 +0100
According to Schizi@***.com, at 10:01 on 24 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> To inject just a little SR.
> You do realize that the weapns in SR probably have better range and damage
> than the Btech ones? (Centurion at least seemed to have pretty long ranges,
> decent damage, but I guess that means little here and now eh?)

FASA's philosophy seems to be to put playability over realism. WAY over
realism, in some cases :) The best thing to do (in BT anyway) is to not
worry about realistic ranges and times, but just think in terms of hexes
and turns so it's not as obvious that a rocket has a range of only 630 m
while any modern AT missile does at least three times that.

SR suffers from much the same problem, although I'm glad FASA realised
this as well and adjusted the ranges in SR3 over the vastly unrealistic
ones they used for many weapons in SR1/II.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:22:16 EST
In a message dated 2/24/1999 11:07:09 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

>
> SR suffers from much the same problem, although I'm glad FASA realised
> this as well and adjusted the ranges in SR3 over the vastly unrealistic
> ones they used for many weapons in SR1/II.

They did??? (looks in BABY...) OH WOW!!! They did!!! (after reading Sniper
and being that much happier...)

-K
Message no. 22
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:00:50 EST
In a message dated 2/24/99 8:07:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> FASA's philosophy seems to be to put playability over realism. WAY over
> realism, in some cases :) The best thing to do (in BT anyway) is to not
> worry about realistic ranges and times, but just think in terms of hexes
> and turns so it's not as obvious that a rocket has a range of only 630 m
> while any modern AT missile does at least three times that.

Yeah, FASA has always said that was the reason, but it is still funny:-)
Message no. 23
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:34:30 +0100
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 11:22 on 24 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> > SR suffers from much the same problem, although I'm glad FASA realised
> > this as well and adjusted the ranges in SR3 over the vastly unrealistic
> > ones they used for many weapons in SR1/II.
>
> They did??? (looks in BABY...) OH WOW!!! They did!!! (after reading Sniper
> and being that much happier...)

It was one of the first things I noticed, I think, when I started looking
through SR3 last August. They're still not perfect, IMHO, but a lot better
than the old ranges. At least now we can shoot people beyond 250 m with an
assault rifle :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: Veskrashen veskrashen@*******.com
Subject: Slightly off topic question
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:04:59 -0600
Gurth wrote:
>
> According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 11:22 on 24 Feb 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > > SR suffers from much the same problem, although I'm glad FASA realised
> > > this as well and adjusted the ranges in SR3 over the vastly unrealistic
> > > ones they used for many weapons in SR1/II.
> >
> > They did??? (looks in BABY...) OH WOW!!! They did!!! (after reading Sniper
> > and being that much happier...)
>
> It was one of the first things I noticed, I think, when I started looking
> through SR3 last August. They're still not perfect, IMHO, but a lot better
> than the old ranges. At least now we can shoot people beyond 250 m with an
> assault rifle :)

Yeah, but they still need work. The M16A2 has a maximum effective
range of 550m on a point target, and 800m on an area target (group of
people, car, etc.) And if I can out 8 out of 10 on a man-sized target
for 500m after two weeks, if think these highly trained marksmen of
shadowrun fame could probably do a lot better, and even have a chance
at longer ranges. Of course, this was in controlled range conditions,
but that doesn't mean that that invalidates the example.

-Mojo.

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