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Message no. 1
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:49:53 -0600
Okay, I was reading the blurb about smart cards in this article:

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_2691.html

Now...it mentions this being "long popular" in Europe. Is there anyone here
that is familiar about this that can give me some basic details?

Also, is there anyone in the US that has encountered them in your locale?

I'm mainly asking because I'm interested, but for SR purposes, this could go
in the "RL imitates SR" category of topicality...



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 2
From: Tim Burke <ranger@********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:03:45 +1000
At 04:49 AM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Okay, I was reading the blurb about smart cards in this article:
>
>http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_2691.html
>
>Now...it mentions this being "long popular" in Europe. Is there anyone here
>that is familiar about this that can give me some basic details?
>
>Also, is there anyone in the US that has encountered them in your locale?
>
>I'm mainly asking because I'm interested, but for SR purposes, this could go
>in the "RL imitates SR" category of topicality...
>
> -XaOs-
>xaos@*****.net
> -David Goth-
>

Smart cards have been on trial in several locations worldwide for
some time now. There was a story on TV recently here about a town
about an hour outside of London UK that had been the largest
smartcard trial. It was amazing, all the payphones in this town
had been converted to accept smartcards so you inserted your
card, dialled your bank and downloaded your "cash" onto your
smartcard. It apparently can replace every card that you now
carry in your wallet including your drivers licence..

The whole time I was watching it my wife and I kept looking at
each other saying "yep, credstick..."

There is a more localised trial occuring in Australia atm.
There is a small place near Wollongong (?sp) that has
the merchants set up to accept them but to my knowledge
there have been no radical payphone modification.
Participants in this trial still need to have their smartcards
topped up at their local participating bank.

One point of note for all you Aussie's out there. Next time you're
in an Australia Post branch check out the EFTPOS (Electronic
Funds Transfer Point Of Sale) handpiece, the part that you
swipe your cashcard through and enter you PIN number has been
modified to accept Smartcards through the bottom of the handpiece
similiar to where a SIM card is inserted in some digital mobile phones.
Australia Post is obviously confident that they will become
mainstream as they have already got the hardware installed.
The slot even says "Smart" with an arrow pointing to it.

Cheers,
Tim Burke

Brisbane, Australia
ranger@********.com.au
#shadowrun: Manx
#950 of 1000
Message no. 3
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:31:51 +1000
>The whole time I was watching it my wife and I kept looking at
>each other saying "yep, credstick..."

I think that's a standard response. :)

>There is a more localised trial occuring in Australia atm.
>There is a small place near Wollongong (?sp) that has
>the merchants set up to accept them but to my knowledge
>there have been no radical payphone modification.
>Participants in this trial still need to have their smartcards
>topped up at their local participating bank.

There's a similar trial going on on the Gold Coast somewhere - my
boyfriend's father just resigned from his job as a high mucky-muck in the
ANZ Bank, and he was involved in it somehow... must remember to ask him.

>One point of note for all you Aussie's out there. Next time you're
>in an Australia Post branch check out the EFTPOS (Electronic
>Funds Transfer Point Of Sale) handpiece, the part that you
>swipe your cashcard through and enter you PIN number has been
>modified to accept Smartcards through the bottom of the handpiece
>similiar to where a SIM card is inserted in some digital mobile phones.
>Australia Post is obviously confident that they will become
>mainstream as they have already got the hardware installed.
>The slot even says "Smart" with an arrow pointing to it.

Hmmm. Tim, next time you see one of these, can you check the brand name? I
can probably find out more about the programs then. :)

Note about the fact that it's similar to a digital phone SIM - in fact as
far as I'm aware, the digital SIM is a cut-down smartcard. They brought
them in like that when smartcard technology was fully developed, but hadn't
gained any kind of recognition or acceptance.

Apparently the plan is to eventually be able to use your smartcard in your
phone, or vice versa... or something. :)


Lady Jestyr

- In the force if Yoda's so strong, then construct a sentence -
- with words in the proper order why can't he? -
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -
Message no. 4
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 14:01:31 +0000
And verily, did XaOs [David Goth] hastily scribble thusly...
|Now...it mentions this being "long popular" in Europe. Is there anyone here
|that is familiar about this that can give me some basic details?

What does "long popular" mean?

I know that they are in use quite a lot.
I have one in my pocket now.

The Keele University registration card also acts as a sort of cash card
and, if you want, you can put money on it and use it to pay for meals.

The benefit being that if you use it for meals, you don't have to pay the
VAT.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 5
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:14:15 -0500
> Okay, I was reading the blurb about smart cards in this article:
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_2691.html
>
> Now...it mentions this being "long popular" in Europe. Is there anyone
> here
> that is familiar about this that can give me some basic details?
>
> Also, is there anyone in the US that has encountered them in your
> locale?
>
> I'm mainly asking because I'm interested, but for SR purposes, this
> could go
> in the "RL imitates SR" category of topicality...
>
US deployment?

Charlotte NC - First Union National Bank deploys smartcards in
all locations.

In the big tower downtown all the merchants (most
anyway) take "Visacash" which is just a disposable smartcard. You buy a
10, 20, 50, or 100 dollar cards and then chuck them when they run out.
They are also bringing out smart ATM cards. They have the same chip on
them but since it's also your ATM you can reload it from an ATM. You can
put up to $100 on it at a time and any "cash" on the card is not covered
if you lose the card (they cover stolen card withdrawals normally).

They are running this system in all the corporate
buildings and looking for a shot at larger deployment.
Message no. 6
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards -Reply
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:39:19 -0400
<SNIP Trials>
FSU (tallahassee,fl) has been using them for at least the
last year or so. Vending machines, Pay Phones, Laundry, and
I'm sure there were some other things, I can't think of.
They were fairly nice, you just didn't want to carry too much money
around on your "junk strip" what you used to buy cokes etc,
because it didn't really verify your id for any of it, and if your
card was lost or stolen, you lost the money entirely.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards -Reply
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:56:32 -0700
I just remembered were I'd seen smart cards, sorta.

Dave&Busters. It's a entertainment place for adults with a sports bar,
pool tables, restaurant, and video games. Instead of useing quarters
or tokens to play the video games you use a card. The system knows how
much money you've deposited for the account that your card accesses.
When you swipe your card at a game X ammount is deducted from your
account.

-David Buehrer
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 8
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:56:25 EST
In a message dated 98-10-27 06:08:46 EST, you write:

> Also, is there anyone in the US that has encountered them in your locale?
>
> I'm mainly asking because I'm interested, but for SR purposes, this could
go
> in the "RL imitates SR" category of topicality...
>

Actually, I have. They just replaced all the washing machines in my building
and gave us smart cards for em. You take the card, put it in the machine and
feed it cash and it puts the money on the card. Then you stick the card in
the washing machine and it takes money off the card.

Interestingly enough, this card has a gold square on the front that roughly
devides into 8 sections, and a mag strip on the back. Apparently the "Money"
information is stored on a chip under the gold square, cause I overheard the
manager explaining to someone the other day that you had to keep the thing dry
or when you stuck it in the washer it didnt work. 64 dollar question is if
you stick it in with the card wet does it short the whole thing out (WHich I
would consider to be a major concern in developing a real smart card that
would be the step twords credstiks)
Message no. 9
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:20:32 +0000
And verily, did Micheal Feeney hastily scribble thusly...
|Interestingly enough, this card has a gold square on the front that roughly
|devides into 8 sections, and a mag strip on the back.

Ahhh... You've got the old type.
We had that type for 4 years here at Keele, but replaced them this year with
a card where the chip is totally enclosed and accessed by radio/EM pulses.


Apparently the "Money"
|information is stored on a chip under the gold square, cause I overheard the
|manager explaining to someone the other day that you had to keep the thing dry
|or when you stuck it in the washer it didnt work. 64 dollar question is if
|you stick it in with the card wet does it short the whole thing out (WHich I
|would consider to be a major concern in developing a real smart card that
|would be the step twords credstiks)

Nahhh. The amount of power in the machine to access those things must be
only a few milliwatts at 5ish volts. It might short out the pins on the
card, but all that'll do is stop it working THAT time, until you dry it.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 10
From: Jennifer Baker <Oxyria@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:33:33 EST
In a message dated 98-10-27 07:07:57 EST, you write:

<< >Also, is there anyone in the US that has encountered them in your locale?
>
>I'm mainly asking because I'm interested, but for SR purposes, this could go
>in the "RL imitates SR" category of topicality...
>
> -XaOs-
>xaos@*****.net >>


Ok, now don't laugh, but McDonald's (yes, the hamburger place) is working on
installing smart cards. Basically, you have the card, walk up to the machine
(gone are the teenagers at the front counter), swipe it, and either punch in
what you want on a keyboard, or just let the card "remember" what you ordered
before (no pickles? Ok! Extra cheese? Ok!). Your order is more accurate,
cooked faster (hey, reduce seconds off of having some human employee punch in
your order and call it back to the kitchen), and voila! The card stores money
on it and all. With luck and a few years, you may never again have to see a
fast-food employee.

There are several towns now trying out the technology, and it has gotten a
"great response" according to Micky-Ds.

Also, Oregon Driver's licenses are now similar to credit cards. They have the
same metalic strip and all our driving info is stored on it (that is all
that's on it, so the DMV here says). As of yet, I haven't seen anyone use the
license's new feature, but... Hmm... drive thru takes on a whole new
meaning... :)

Jennie
*two all-beef patties...*
Message no. 11
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:03:44 -0500
> your order and call it back to the kitchen), and voila! The card stores
> money
> on it and all. With luck and a few years, you may never again have to see
> a
> fast-food employee.
>
I barely see the bastards now.
Message no. 12
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:29:18 EST
In a message dated 98-10-27 12:34:45 EST, you write:

> Also, Oregon Driver's licenses are now similar to credit cards. They have
> the
> same metalic strip and all our driving info is stored on it (that is all
> that's on it, so the DMV here says). As of yet, I haven't seen anyone use
> the
> license's new feature, but... Hmm... drive thru takes on a whole new
> meaning... :)

Interesting. CA's are like that now to (hard plastic, holographic top to try
and stop counterfiaters, mag strip on back) but I never had found anyone who
knew what that mag strip was supposed to be FOR.
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:43:26 +0100
According to Tim Burke, at 22:03 on 27 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> Smart cards have been on trial in several locations worldwide for some
> time now. There was a story on TV recently here about a town about an
> hour outside of London UK that had been the largest smartcard trial. It
> was amazing, all the payphones in this town had been converted to accept
> smartcards so you inserted your card, dialled your bank and downloaded
> your "cash" onto your smartcard.

Same thing over here; the postal/phone company set up a bank _years_ ago
(named, appropriately enough, Postbank) and you can recharge their card at
almost every phone booth in the Netherlands (which all work with chip
cards instead of money anyway).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:43:26 +0100
According to XaOs [David Goth], at 4:49 on 27 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> Okay, I was reading the blurb about smart cards in this article:
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_2691.html
>
> Now...it mentions this being "long popular" in Europe. Is there anyone here
> that is familiar about this that can give me some basic details?

I haven't read the article but I take it this is about credit card-like,
well, cards you can put money on to pay with in stores, instead of using
cash? They're quite common in the Netherlands now; about two or three
years ago the first tests started (in a few areas of the country, one of
them being where I live), and now just about everybody can get one. As a
matter of fact, when you get a new bank card here, I think just about
every bank issues one of these chip cards. I've got two, and I've never
used either :) (The main reason is that I can't remember the code I need
to "charge" them, and I don't really need the cards anyway so I haven't
looked it up either.)

All in all, though, they look to be quite handy: no need to punch in a
code to pay with the card, just slot it and (IIRC) hit an "okay" button,
and that's it.

> Also, is there anyone in the US that has encountered them in your locale?

I'm not qualified to answer that one, I think...

> I'm mainly asking because I'm interested, but for SR purposes, this could go
> in the "RL imitates SR" category of topicality...

That's one of the first things I thought when I heard about these things a
few years ago.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: David Cordy <DCordy@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:49:44 -0800
> In a message dated 98-10-27 12:34:45 EST, you write:
>
> > Also, Oregon Driver's licenses are now similar to credit cards. They
> have
> > the
> > same metalic strip and all our driving info is stored on it (that is
> all
> > that's on it, so the DMV here says). As of yet, I haven't seen anyone
> use
> > the
> > license's new feature, but... Hmm... drive thru takes on a whole new
> > meaning... :)
>
> Interesting. CA's are like that now to (hard plastic, holographic top to
> try
> and stop counterfiaters, mag strip on back) but I never had found anyone
> who
> knew what that mag strip was supposed to be FOR.
>
The mag strip on the back contains all the information on the front. If you
ever get pulled over by a cruiser, watch in your rear view mirror when he
walks away with your license. The cop will swipe the card like a credit
card, and all the info will be in the system, no more calling in all the
info, or typing it in.
At least that is how I remember them working.

-David
Message no. 16
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:01:35 -0600
> In the big tower downtown all the merchants (most
> anyway) take "Visacash" which is just a disposable smartcard. You buy a
> 10, 20, 50, or 100 dollar cards and then chuck them when they run out.
> They are also bringing out smart ATM cards. They have the same chip on
> them but since it's also your ATM you can reload it from an ATM. You can
> put up to $100 on it at a time and any "cash" on the card is not covered
> if you lose the card (they cover stolen card withdrawals normally).

I don't really see this as useful, except as an experiment. I mean...my
debit card does the same thing, and if I lose it, I don't have to worry
about someone draining what's left in my bank account.

Oh well, at least they're trying.


Anyway, a later article that I found said that Germany was one of the early
adopters, and that it was fairly widespread there too. Any recent German
BABY owners happen to pay for your purchase with a smartkard?



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 17
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:04:41 -0600
> Also, Oregon Driver's licenses are now similar to credit cards.
> They have the
> same metalic strip and all our driving info is stored on it (that is all
> that's on it, so the DMV here says). As of yet, I haven't seen
> anyone use the
> license's new feature, but... Hmm... drive thru takes on a whole new
> meaning... :)

This is actually pretty common (I'd guess). Missouri has credit card style
drivers licensees now, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a 'smart card'
except as a step towards having your info available in an electronically
accessible form.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 18
From: rook <rook@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards -Reply
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:00:27 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 8:40 AM


><SNIP Trials>
>FSU (tallahassee,fl) has been using them for at least the
>last year or so. Vending machines, Pay Phones, Laundry, and
>I'm sure there were some other things, I can't think of.
>They were fairly nice, you just didn't want to carry too much money
>around on your "junk strip" what you used to buy cokes etc,
>because it didn't really verify your id for any of it, and if your
>card was lost or stolen, you lost the money entirely.


something like this on my campus in bc, canada. for those who go here we
receive our student id card. but on that card we can get money put on it to
use with a meal plan to buy food. or we can put money on for photocopying,
or for laundry machines. but each set is a different account on the card,
as in you can't use money for food for copying or laundry, etc. the only
protection is our pictures on it, which get looked at unless they know you.
so if they know you and you have someone elses card....

rook aka david
rook@***.net
Message no. 19
From: rook <rook@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:03:25 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Smart Cards


>Interesting. CA's are like that now to (hard plastic, holographic top to
try
>and stop counterfiaters, mag strip on back) but I never had found anyone
who
>knew what that mag strip was supposed to be FOR.

yes, bc, canada driver's licences are like that as well. does anyone know
what it is for??

rook aka david
rook@***.net
Message no. 20
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 23:07:59 +0100
And so it came to happen that XaOs [David Goth] wrote:
<snip>
> Anyway, a later article that I found said that Germany was one of
> the early adopters, and that it was fairly widespread there too.
> Any recent German BABY owners happen to pay for your purchase with
> a smartkard?

Actually beeing a german and a BABY(ger.) owner qualifies me to answer
here.
First: We have here in germany those Smartcards, actually we have one
of those Cardreaders in the store where I work. They take
either EC, VISA EUROMASTERCARD and those Smartcards. We have
this system now for about one year but no one has used one of
those (and I am quite happy about that fact, I do not know how
to handle them corectly, ah, qualified personal is something
real handy, ne ;o). As far as I know fact is that every german
bank is right now remodeling they CredCards to fit that new
chip on them. Those Chips are IIRC indeed loadable with cash
from the account of the owner. Other then that they do need a
PIN to be punched into the Cardreader as a final safetygua-
rantee. They are today not that much in use and not every
store has one of those Cardreaders anyway.
Second: We too have here in germany those Credcards that are used for
the telephones in the telephoneboths like the ones that are in
use in Gurths country. Difference here is that they are not
re-
loadable so after you used up your sum they are more an object
to collect than anything else. Much to my dismay. And finfing
a both where you can pay with real hard coins is nearly impos-
sible to find (although last locating of such an "antique"
booth was recorded to be situated near one of our Airports;o).
Third: The Healthinsurances introduced those Smartcards for storing
general data in 1995 IIRC.
Fourth: Universities seem to be always the first who took the fancy
options. The University where I study has those rechargeble
Cards for the Mensa where we get our meals. They got it some-
times before 1993 as they had it already as I started my tour
of study.
As a final note, the moot of those CredCards in the broad population
is more dissatisfied than pleased as they are more conservative on
the this topic. You have money, OK, but you have it on your bank-
acount where it is safe. Those EC and VISA cards are only recently
(hm, ok, they are used here quite often, but popular usage is just
about 5 to 10 years now. and thats the max.) beeing used heavenly,
and to suspect the average german who fears in his heart the new
twist of time to give the new Cards a broad welcome hug is more than
a dream. But I think those Smartcards will be adopted pretty fast when
the Union of the EU will take place as those will be quite handy then.
We do not have Drivinglicenses or Pasports on Chip, Think the gouvern-
ment believes those not to reliable by now, but maybe that will
change.
We'll see.

Uh, just got caried away, the initial question was, ahm (scratches
head)
Ah, yes. No, I haven't adopted my BABY with slotting in a Smartcard.
I've
paid a plain and simple DM note for it. Then my friend handed me the
little cutie.
On a similar thing, in Essen where the Gamefair last Weekend took
place
they did not had a machine for using those CredCards. So every visitor
who hadn't enough cash handy and wanted to pay by Card was pretty
screwed. They had to get out of the halls to get access to a
bankacount.
And the only maschine in viccinity was most of the time under siege by
at least 50 people or so. So much for new technologies ;o)
--
---> Steadfast
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Ger. BABY...
Message no. 21
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:15:17 EST
In a message dated 10/27/98 10:51:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, DCordy@****.COM
writes:

> The mag strip on the back contains all the information on the front. If you
> ever get pulled over by a cruiser, watch in your rear view mirror when he
> walks away with your license. The cop will swipe the card like a credit
> card, and all the info will be in the system, no more calling in all the
> info, or typing it in.
> At least that is how I remember them working.
Basically true, but remember that the agencies involved (on a local level)
need to purchase the equipment. Most see no need to. The states believe in the
program, so they have the little strips placed on the cards.
Message no. 22
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:30:17 -0500
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Steadfast wrote:

->Actually beeing a german and a BABY(ger.) owner qualifies me to answer

In an attempt to name these very rare BABYs (there were only 100
of them right?) I would like to name them Gerber BABYs! Steadfast's
abbreviation gave me the idea.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 23
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 02:38:16 +0100
And so it came to happen that Fixer wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Steadfast wrote:
>
> ->Actually beeing a german and a BABY(ger.) owner qualifies me to answer
>
> In an attempt to name these very rare BABYs (there were only 100
> of them right?) I would like to name them Gerber BABYs! Steadfast's
> abbreviation gave me the idea.

No there wher actually 200 printed, signed by Mike Mulvihill.
BTW, does "Gerber" actually mean someone? A Scientist? A Writer? A
Who?
As long as I do not something specific of this "Gerber" I can't allow
it that the Ger.BABYis named like that. Those little one's have no
idea of how harsh the world out there is, so it is my HOLY DUTY to
protect them from anything that might could cause someone to laugh
over them or want them some harmfull things.
And yes, that is although you are probably a wee bit longer on this
list.

;o)

--
---> Steadfast...Selfproclaimed Protector of Ger.BABY's
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Ger. BABY...
Message no. 24
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:08:51 -0600
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:49:53 -0600 "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
writes:
>Okay, I was reading the blurb about smart cards in this article:
>
>http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_2691.html
>
>Now...it mentions this being "long popular" in Europe. Is there anyone
here
>that is familiar about this that can give me some basic details?
>
>Also, is there anyone in the US that has encountered them in your
locale?
>
>I'm mainly asking because I'm interested, but for SR purposes, this
could go
>in the "RL imitates SR" category of topicality...

More likely SR imitates RL (Or perhaps RL and SR imitating Cyberpunk
genre?)

"The Way Things Work" by David Macaulay explains how Smart Cards work on
page 352. So what? The book is copyrighted in 1988. Smart Cards have
been around for a while. These may or may not be the same as what you
posted ( I haven't checked it out.)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 25
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:10:35 -0600
> acount where it is safe. Those EC and VISA cards are only recently
> (hm, ok, they are used here quite often, but popular usage is just
> about 5 to 10 years now. and thats the max.) beeing used heavenly,
> and to suspect the average german who fears in his heart the new
> twist of time to give the new Cards a broad welcome hug is more than
> a dream.

Yeah. I remember, now, this bit of cultural difference pointed out by my
German teacher. I think she said something along the line of, Germans don't
use credit cards (Visa, MasterCard, American Express <of course>) nearly as
much as us in the US. She may have said that Germans are afraid ('afraid'
not intended to be taken in a negative sense) of making purchases on credit.
Bankruptcy isn't too uncommon here, so maybe that's not a bad attitude to
take.

> But I think those Smartcards will be adopted pretty fast when
> the Union of the EU will take place as those will be quite handy then.
> We do not have Drivinglicenses or Pasports on Chip, Think the gouvern-
> ment believes those not to reliable by now, but maybe that will
> change.
> We'll see.

Overall, I think the EU will be pretty cool. I just hope that it results in
a more open market (worldwide), and that it doesn't just result in a
different kind of protectionism by those countries who are a part of it (and
nearby countries that *aren't*).



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 26
From: Tim Burke <ranger@********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:34:09 +1000
>Interesting. CA's are like that now to (hard plastic, holographic top to try
>and stop counterfiaters, mag strip on back) but I never had found anyone who
>knew what that mag strip was supposed to be FOR.
>

My friend from Canada holds an Ontario Drivers licence
that has the hologram and magnetic strip on it and
tells me that the magnetic strip was used by a State
Trooper when he was ticketed. The Statie swiped his
licence in a hand held reader that spat out the ticket
with all his info already on it. Apparently it is a relatively
new thing.

Scary huh.



Tim Burke
Brisbane, Australia
ranger@********.com.au
#shadowrun: Manx
#950 of 1000
Message no. 27
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:51:49 -0500
On 27 Oct 98, at 13:01, XaOs [David Goth] wrote:

> I don't really see this as useful, except as an experiment. I mean...my
> debit card does the same thing, and if I lose it, I don't have to worry
> about someone draining what's left in my bank account.

<PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT>

That depends. Is it an ATM card, or one of those debit cards with a
VISA/Mastercard logo? If the latter, if you lose it, you are indeed
in grave danger. Someone can use it as a credit card, and can drain
your account dry without ever having to validate their identity, or
using a PIN. Unlike a real VISA/MC credit card, the bank does not
insure it for $500 either. (Most VISA/MC only hold you responsible
for the first $500 of false charges, covering you after that. Not so
with the debit cards).

I read a story about some lady that lost her card (it may have been
stolen. Doesn't really matter) Anyway, she lost the 2,000 in her
checking account. She also had overdraft protection, so after the
2,000 went dry, the overdraft kicked in and drained the 5,000 from
her savings. To make matters worse, she also had a line of credit
that kicked in after that for the tune of 3,500. So this poor woman
lost 7,000, and still owes the bank 3,500, because some thief was
using her card! And not a damn thing she can do about it, because
debit cards do not have insurance.

And you don't even need to lose it to lose your cash. Another story
told of some hackers that got hold of the card numbers, and made a
bunch of purchases online and via telephone to the tune of 200,000
before they were shut down. Those poor people lost money right out of
their checking accounts. They got it back, because the thieves were
caught, but the rub is the money was unable for a spell, so many of
them bounced checks, and the banks would not credit the bounced check
fees. A couple of those folks had fees well over a couple hundred.
That money is gone. One guy almost lost his car.

If you have one of these cards, take it back to the bank and trade it
for a regular ATM card. They are an open funnel to your bank account,
with few, if any, security measures to protect you.

<END OF PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT>

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - |"Letter writing is the only
- drekhead@***.net - | device for combining
HTML to: drekhead@********.net | solitude and good company."
ICQ - UIN 2883757 | -Lord Byron
Message no. 28
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:18:13 +0000
And verily, did Tim Kerby hastily scribble thusly...
|
|On 27 Oct 98, at 13:01, XaOs [David Goth] wrote:
|
|> I don't really see this as useful, except as an experiment. I mean...my
|> debit card does the same thing, and if I lose it, I don't have to worry
|> about someone draining what's left in my bank account.
|
|<PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT>
|
|That depends. Is it an ATM card, or one of those debit cards with a
|VISA/Mastercard logo? If the latter, if you lose it, you are indeed
|in grave danger. Someone can use it as a credit card, and can drain
|your account dry without ever having to validate their identity, or
|using a PIN. Unlike a real VISA/MC credit card, the bank does not
|insure it for $500 either. (Most VISA/MC only hold you responsible
|for the first $500 of false charges, covering you after that. Not so
|with the debit cards).

In america, maybe.
In Britain, it works like this.
You lose the card. You realise sometimes later. You phone the emergency card
loss hot line. At that point, you're safe. Any and all funds removed from
your card after that point will be refunded by the credit card company.
Any money that was spent BEFORE you reported it, well, that's just tough
luck, unless you're covered by your insurance.

|I read a story about some lady that lost her card (it may have been
|stolen. Doesn't really matter) Anyway, she lost the 2,000 in her
|checking account. She also had overdraft protection, so after the
|2,000 went dry, the overdraft kicked in and drained the 5,000 from
|her savings. To make matters worse, she also had a line of credit
|that kicked in after that for the tune of 3,500. So this poor woman
|lost 7,000, and still owes the bank 3,500, because some thief was
|using her card! And not a damn thing she can do about it, because
|debit cards do not have insurance.

She could sue the bank for not cancelling the card! For gods sake, it's
simple. You lose a card. You cancel it the moment you realise it's lost!

After that, if someone DOES take money off it, it's the banks fault for not
cancelling it!

|And you don't even need to lose it to lose your cash. Another story
|told of some hackers that got hold of the card numbers, and made a
|bunch of purchases online and via telephone to the tune of 200,000
|before they were shut down. Those poor people lost money right out of
|their checking accounts. They got it back, because the thieves were
|caught, but the rub is the money was unable for a spell, so many of
|them bounced checks, and the banks would not credit the bounced check
|fees. A couple of those folks had fees well over a couple hundred.
|That money is gone. One guy almost lost his car.

Another thing that you could sue the bank for. Undue fees and negligence in
taking care of your money.

I thought you lot were rabid when it came to legal action!

|If you have one of these cards, take it back to the bank and trade it
|for a regular ATM card. They are an open funnel to your bank account,
|with few, if any, security measures to protect you.
|
|<END OF PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT>

Over here, I think we have it fine.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 29
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards -Reply
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:41:26 -0400
<SNIP Spike's take on smartcards>
You can do the same thing here, as soon as you find
your card lost, call and cancel it. However what if you don't
realize it has been stolen. Say you just got out money
for the week, and you won't check your wallet again for
3 days. I can do a heck of alot of damage before you
cancel the card.
Hell I even have a sticker on my card, that says please check
ID, in big bold letters, and you no what. 90% of the time I use
my card, no one asks. Sometimes I point it out to them,
sometimes I don't, but it makes a point.
At least in SR, they tie your account to a fingerprint, dna or
some other type of scan. Until we get to that point, your funds
always have some type of risk.
And don't get me started on lawyers and lawsuits. I wonder if
they'll be as prevalent in 2060 as they are now.
Anyway....back to the list.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 30
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 19:06:03 +0100
At 11:49 27/10/98 , XaOs [David Goth] said:
>Okay, I was reading the blurb about smart cards in this article:
(snip url)
>Now...it mentions this being "long popular" in Europe. Is there anyone here
>that is familiar about this that can give me some basic details?

Here in Belgium it's quite common. For example, I own a Visa card (or is it
the other way around?;-) with a smartcard, all in one. I can pay with
either one, I just have to tell the clerk how I intend to pay. (I could
also use a regular card from my bank debitting my account directly, and
most bank cards also include a smart card component). The amount on the
smartcard is limited to +- 175$, and no code is needed to use it: the idea
is to replace small change with e-money, and keep it simple. To credit my
smartcard, I can either go to a telephone booth or to an ATM, and ask for
specific amount to be directly transfered from my account to my card. I
have to type my code to do so.

I have also a social security smartcard, a library smartcard (buzzzz, you
have forgotten to return book number xxx for five days...), and another
that I use at work to input my user profile in the computer I'm using.

It's quite easy to use, the only being:
1) No code is needed to debite a smartcard, so if you loose it, the money
is gone.
2) I usually break them in less than six monthes, and a replacement in the
same year that the card is issued usually cost around 25$.

(snip)

AlSeyMer
Message no. 31
From: Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards -Reply
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:39:31 -0800
> And don't get me started on lawyers and lawsuits. I wonder if
> they'll be as prevalent in 2060 as they are now.

Yeah. They're called Rat Shamans. :)

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site
Message no. 32
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards -reply
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:47:24 -0400
> And don't get me started on lawyers and lawsuits. I wonder if
> they'll be as prevalent in 2060 as they are now.

>Yeah. They're called Rat Shamans. :)
No comment, they pay my bills so......
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 33
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:00:19 -0600
> In america, maybe.
> In Britain, it works like this.

Tim's an Aussie, but his facts appear correct.

> You lose the card. You realise sometimes later. You phone the
> emergency card
> loss hot line. At that point, you're safe. Any and all funds removed from
> your card after that point will be refunded by the credit card company.
> Any money that was spent BEFORE you reported it, well, that's just tough
> luck, unless you're covered by your insurance.

I think in Tim's example, the assumption is that it happened so fast that
the woman hadn't called her bank yet.

> She could sue the bank for not cancelling the card! For gods sake, it's
> simple. You lose a card. You cancel it the moment you realise it's lost!
>
> After that, if someone DOES take money off it, it's the banks
> fault for not
> cancelling it!

True...plus in any case, I'd think that if her spending habits were nothing
like what occurred, she'd be on pretty firm footing that the bank should
have noticed, and stopped payment on the expenditures that were happening.
(Basically, it's really smart to read all the fine print that the bank sends
you, and keep yourself informed about your rights in your individual
situation).

Something that I really should do.

> Over here, I think we have it fine.

I feel pretty safe too, but then again, it may be the Ostrich syndrome on my
part.

Basically, I'm pretty safe because my overdraft protection is pretty maxed
out, and there is never more than a paycheck's worth in my bank account at
any one time. :)



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 34
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:00:20 -0600
> And verily, did Tim Kerby hastily scribble thusly...

Oops! I was thinking of Tim Burke. Forget all that complementary stuff about
him! I must be going soft! ;)



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 35
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards -Reply
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:09:23 -0600
> Hell I even have a sticker on my card, that says please check
> ID, in big bold letters, and you no what. 90% of the time I use
> my card, no one asks. Sometimes I point it out to them,
> sometimes I don't, but it makes a point.

Having worked in retail previously, I know that most of the time you don't
give a damn enough to even compare signatures. Since I've gotten out of
retail though, I've noticed that MOST retailers have their people compare
signatures before they give your card back to you.

The logic of some people trying to protect themselves kills me. So many
people wouldn't sign the back of their card on the assumption that someone
could use that as a means to forge their signature. I usually wouldn't point
out to them that if they have your unsigned card, they don't HAVE to forge
it then. At that point, they just sign it as they would on their own! (Yes,
I do understand that the 'not signing' method would protect you AFTER the
fact...but I'd think that making someone TRY to forge you would be safer
than someone that the retailer would never question anyway).

The photo credit cards seem like a good idea though...

> At least in SR, they tie your account to a fingerprint, dna or
> some other type of scan. Until we get to that point, your funds
> always have some type of risk.

Even then....someone creative enough, with a pretty unlimited budget... Ah,
why bother...;)

> And don't get me started on lawyers and lawsuits. I wonder if
> they'll be as prevalent in 2060 as they are now.

I doubt it. As many protections and advantageous judgements that SR history
has shown to have given to corps, I'd bet that severe tort reform (etc)
would have also happened.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 36
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:14:27 -0500
On 28 Oct 98, at 13:00, XaOs [David Goth] wrote:

> > In america, maybe.
> > In Britain, it works like this.
>
> Tim's an Aussie, but his facts appear correct.

An American, actually. And the facts should be correct; they come
from an article in the Wall Street Journal, and from a couple of
other sources quoted by a consumer advocate on his radio show. (Clark
Howard is his name. He was written a couple of books on consumer
rights and consumer awareness).

> > You lose the card. You realise sometimes later. You phone the
> > emergency card
> > loss hot line. At that point, you're safe. Any and all funds removed
> > from your card after that point will be refunded by the credit card
> > company. Any money that was spent BEFORE you reported it, well, that's
> > just tough luck, unless you're covered by your insurance.

> I think in Tim's example, the assumption is that it happened so fast that
> the woman hadn't called her bank yet.

Yes. And as he said, tough luck is right. Her tough luck was to the
tune of 10,500. Believe me, it does not take a crook long to charge
up a card. When I worked retail, our Regional Loss Prevention Manager
showed us an experiment where several marked cards were
"accidentally" lost. Most of them were maxed out in less than two
hours.

> > She could sue the bank for not cancelling the card! For gods sake, it's
> > simple. You lose a card. You cancel it the moment you realise it's lost!
> >
> > After that, if someone DOES take money off it, it's the banks
> > fault for not
> > cancelling it!

Remember, all her losses occurred before the card was reported lost.
You are correct that the bank is responsible after that.
Unfortunately, a lawsuit is not an option. The burden of proof is on
you to prove that: 1)You cancelled the card, 2)The purchases are not
yours.
Not only that, the attorney fees in most cases would be more than the
loss. So you simply get screwed. Why do you think banks are pushing
them so much? They don't give a rat's ass about convenience. If they
did, they would have more than two teller's open. :)

> True...plus in any case, I'd think that if her spending habits were
> nothing like what occurred, she'd be on pretty firm footing that the bank
> should have noticed, and stopped payment on the expenditures that were
> happening.

The thing with these debit cards is that they are not monitored to
the same degree that credit cards are. Why do you think that is?
Guess who's responsible for incorrect charges on your credit card...
they are. So of course, they watch it.

(Basically, it's really smart to read all the fine print that
> the bank sends you, and keep yourself informed about your rights in
>your individual situation).

Most of what I am saying is laid out in the fine print, usually in
legalese of some sort.

> I feel pretty safe too, but then again, it may be the Ostrich syndrome on
> my part.
>
> Basically, I'm pretty safe because my overdraft protection is pretty maxed
> out, and there is never more than a paycheck's worth in my bank account at
> any one time. :)

Well, there is that. :) I don't have much to steal either, which is
even more reason why I want to hang on to it.

This is way OT now, so please if you wish to continue, e-mail me
privately. I just wanted to give a word of friendly warning.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - |"Letter writing is the only
- drekhead@***.net - | device for combining
HTML to: drekhead@********.net | solitude and good company."
ICQ - UIN 2883757 | -Lord Byron
Message no. 37
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 18:22:59 EST
In a message dated 98-10-28 12:18:37 EST, you write:

> In america, maybe.
> In Britain, it works like this.
> You lose the card. You realise sometimes later. You phone the emergency
card
> loss hot line. At that point, you're safe. Any and all funds removed from
> your card after that point will be refunded by the credit card company.
> Any money that was spent BEFORE you reported it, well, that's just tough
> luck, unless you're covered by your insurance.


What we have here is a failure to communicate. He is not talking about a
traditional credit or ATM card. These check cards allow to use the card to
authorise payment directly from your checking account just like a check does.
However, I was always under the impression that you still had to punch in a
PIN to use them. At least my sister, who has one, always has had to.

Regardless, anyone who has had something like this happen to them could sue
the bank. These check cards still fall under the ATM laws and the same loss
rescrictions apply. If you know the people involved in this story personaly I
would advise them to retain a lawyer.
Message no. 38
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:32:52 -0600
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, David Cordy wrote:

> The mag strip on the back contains all the information on the front. If you
> ever get pulled over by a cruiser, watch in your rear view mirror when he
> walks away with your license. The cop will swipe the card like a credit
> card, and all the info will be in the system, no more calling in all the
> info, or typing it in.
> At least that is how I remember them working.

Well I know Illinois is going to a version of this with a twist. In the
past most places have just had the Photo laminated between the layers of
the card. The new version uses a Digitel camera to take the picture and
then prints it into the card. It also stores the picture on a computer.
They then send all the information for the ID (including the digital
version of the photo) to a central database. So when they swipe your card
down at the Police station not only does your name, address, ect come up
but so does your picture. They could probably do it in the patrol cars to
but i doubt they want to spring for radio/cellular modems of fast enough
speed to make photo downloads take a reasonable amount of time. They have
talked about letting retailers pay to get swipe stations in their stores
so when they take your ID to confirm who you are they can swipe it and
make sure your in the database. Now all the sudden to create a GOOD fake
ID you not only have to generate the card but get the info into the
central database. Sounds like a matrix run to me:)

Thomas Price
AKA The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
Message no. 39
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:43:01 +0000
And verily, did Micheal Feeney hastily scribble thusly...
|What we have here is a failure to communicate. He is not talking about a
|traditional credit or ATM card. These check cards allow to use the card to
|authorise payment directly from your checking account just like a check does.

I know. I have one, but over here, they have the same brands. Like Visa for
example.

|However, I was always under the impression that you still had to punch in a
|PIN to use them. At least my sister, who has one, always has had to.

A PIN? when you're getting cash out of an ATM, maybe, but when you buy
something from a shop with it, all you have to do is sign on the dotted
line.

|Regardless, anyone who has had something like this happen to them could sue
|the bank. These check cards still fall under the ATM laws and the same loss
|rescrictions apply. If you know the people involved in this story personaly I
|would advise them to retain a lawyer.

Debit cards and cheque cards are different. They share similar functions,
such as guaranteeing cheques, but apart from that, the cheque card can't be
used as if it was a credit card, the way a debit card can.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 40
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 19:03:13 EST
In a message dated 98-10-28 18:34:17 EST, you write:

> Well I know Illinois is going to a version of this with a twist. In the
> past most places have just had the Photo laminated between the layers of
> the card. The new version uses a Digitel camera to take the picture and
> then prints it into the card. It also stores the picture on a computer.
> They then send all the information for the ID (including the digital
> version of the photo) to a central database.

They already do this in CA with the ID cards. They digitize not only the
picture, but an image of your signature as well.

Definatly would be the start of matrix run, to create such a fake ID.
However, once you did it your ID wouldnt BE fake, per se. In fact, if you can
successfully crack into that database to insert yourself, you can have the
system spit out a new totaly legal ID and mail it to you cause your other one
got "lost".

At which point, your fake ID isnt so fake, is it?
Message no. 41
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:17:45 +1000
Micheal Feeney writes:
> Definatly would be the start of matrix run, to create such a fake ID.
> However, once you did it your ID wouldnt BE fake, per se. In
> fact, if you can
> successfully crack into that database to insert yourself, you can have the
> system spit out a new totaly legal ID and mail it to you cause
> your other one
> got "lost".
>
> At which point, your fake ID isnt so fake, is it?

It's still fake, it's just a damn good fake (rating 8-10).

Why is it still fake? Well, most checks would simply check to see if the ID
exists, and they'd pass it, so they get fooled. However, there's always the
chance that an audit of the system finds out that the ID was generated
illegally.

There's also the fact that multiple checking methods may not be fooled by
this. Hmm, this is your driver's license, huh? Okay, we'll just crosscheck
it against your SIN. Okay, the SIN is there. Hmm, no known parents, uh? Poor
guy. Let's just check out this orphanage you were raised in. That's odd, the
orphanage lost all of its records in a fire back in '48. Okay, well I'll do
a quick check with the state government records for orphanages. Hey, this
guy isn't on that list...

Okay, this is an extreme example, but it's less than what you'd get if you,
say, went for a defence clearance. Good fakes stand up to a lot, but they
are still fake, and there will be some crack in the legend that you've built
up for yourself.

Heck, the last answer could have been that the government has a record for
1000 children in the orphanage that year, but the orphanage only had a
capacity of 20. :)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 42
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:45:49 EST
In a message dated 98-10-28 19:20:33 EST, you write:

> Okay, this is an extreme example, but it's less than what you'd get if you,
> say, went for a defence clearance. Good fakes stand up to a lot, but they
> are still fake, and there will be some crack in the legend that you've
built
> up for yourself.
>

Not really. Depends on the clearance. Clearance checks for Clasified and
Secret clearances are a lot less strict. In fact, the only reason one would
have such a severe background check described here is if they were being
vetted for one of the special code word clearances above top secret, or under
criminal investigation. Of course, in 2060, the corps have their own ways of
making background checks, and are probobly more thourough than the feds,
really.
Message no. 43
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 01:30:25 -0600
> What we have here is a failure to communicate. He is not talking about a
> traditional credit or ATM card. These check cards allow to use
> the card to
> authorise payment directly from your checking account just like a
> check does.
> However, I was always under the impression that you still had to
> punch in a
> PIN to use them. At least my sister, who has one, always has had to.

The ones Tim (Kirby!) was talking about are the MasterCard/Visa ones. As far
as the merchant is concerned, they just treat them like a regular credit
card. Hand it to the cashier to run through the machine, sign the receipt.
(Or ordering stuff online, or through mail-order...give them the number,
give them the expiration date. Cha-Ching!).

> Regardless, anyone who has had something like this happen to them
> could sue
> the bank.

*Could*, but would probably lose.

These check cards still fall under the ATM laws and
> the same loss
> rescrictions apply.

I'm not real familiar with the ATM laws. Anyone care to point some out to
me?



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 44
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards -Reply
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 08:29:11 -0500
Quoting Brian Wong (rook@*****.INFINEX.COM):
> > And don't get me started on lawyers and lawsuits. I wonder if
> > they'll be as prevalent in 2060 as they are now.
>
> Yeah. They're called Rat Shamans. :)
>
Hey now! Having played a Rat Shaman (okay, it wasn't Shadowrun, but
still), I for one resent that comparison! :)

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 45
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards -Reply
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 08:33:27 -0500
Quoting XaOs [David Goth] (xaos@*****.NET):
> The logic of some people trying to protect themselves kills me. So many
> people wouldn't sign the back of their card on the assumption that someone
> could use that as a means to forge their signature. I usually wouldn't point
> out to them that if they have your unsigned card, they don't HAVE to forge
> it then. At that point, they just sign it as they would on their own! (Yes,
> I do understand that the 'not signing' method would protect you AFTER the
> fact...but I'd think that making someone TRY to forge you would be safer
> than someone that the retailer would never question anyway).
>

My favorite is where the counter-person (take that however you will)
notices the card is unsigned, refuses to accept it unless you sign it, WATCHES
you sign it, and then...carefully compares the signature you just made on the
card to the signature you just made on the receipt, to make sure they match.
But it's good to know that if I'd been replaced by my evil twin in the
two minutes while I was standing there at the register, the sales droid would
have caught him. :)

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 46
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Smart Cards -Reply
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:42:29 -0500
On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:

->Quoting Brian Wong (rook@*****.INFINEX.COM):
->> > And don't get me started on lawyers and lawsuits. I wonder if
->> > they'll be as prevalent in 2060 as they are now.
->>
->> Yeah. They're called Rat Shamans. :)
->>
-> Hey now! Having played a Rat Shaman (okay, it wasn't Shadowrun, but
->still), I for one resent that comparison! :)

More appropriate for lawyers & corporate types would be a shark
shaman. I've got a shark Shaman Sorcery Adept in my group right now an
dhe's NOT happy with the way things are going (the player is enjoying
himself, though).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Smart Cards, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!