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Message no. 1
From: Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Subject: Smart Frame Capabilities
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1993 12:01:43 -0400
VR, pg. 44:

Commanding Smart Frames

Smart Frame Capabilties

.... A frame cannot download or copy files. nor perform system
operations of any kind....

If a smart frame could be sent in to find some data and bring it back,
what would be the point of ever running the decker. Just make up a
kickin' frame and have it do all the decking. (Very munchinisk view)

-- Quiktek
a.k.a. Todd Montgomery
tmont@****.wvu.edu
tmont@***.wvu.edu
un032507@*******.wvnet.edu
Message no. 2
From: Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Smart Frame Capabilities
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1993 13:01:52 -0500
>VR, pg. 44:
>Commanding Smart Frames
>Smart Frame Capabilties
>.... A frame cannot download or copy files. nor perform system
>operations of any kind....

>If a smart frame could be sent in to find some data and bring it back,
>what would be the point of ever running the decker. Just make up a
>kickin' frame and have it do all the decking. (Very munchinisk view)

As the person who originally suggested sending a data-retrival frame to
counter a firewall system, I'd like to point out that when I made the
suggestion, I mentioned that I was aware of this statement in VR, but
chose to ignore it. Why? Not munchkinism, but rather realism - as the
poster who originally suggested the firewalls has stated, all this quote
does is show FASA's ignorance about computers. Give me 2 or three minutes
(just in case I'm typing slowly), and I can create a dumb frame to perform
a system operation on my PC, and I'm not even good enough to break into
a basic unix box. (The 'dumb frame' I reference is also known as a .BATch
file, and I can use it to perform any DOS command, most of which are
system operations - listing, moving, or deleting files, etc.) Give me
a little time to work on it, and I can write programs that will do file
transfers without supervision - a data retrieval frame. And again, I'm not
even close to being in the standard decker's league. FASA hasn't given any
information that suggests that such activities would be more difficult in
2054, and, if it were, it would be a major step backwards, as it would
require that everything a computer does be supervised. That rule is
horribly unrealistic.

What would be the point of ever running the decker? Lots of stuff - for
starters, frames can't write themselves. Frames aren't nearly as effective
as deckers because they don't have a hacking pool. Frames can't vary the
load rating they generate, making them more susceptible to freezing in low-
capacity nodes. (Another rule I ignore is the one about all programs in
active memory increasing a decker's load rating even if they're not being
used at the time...) And, of course, the smartest frame is still pretty
stupid compared to any decker. Aside from not having to risk your neck (or
your deck), I can't find a single advantage to using a frame instead of
going in yourself. Oh, just thought of one - you can be doing something
else while the frame is working for you. Got any others?

esper@***.umn.edu
Message no. 3
From: Curtis W Patrick <cpatri@**.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Smart Frame Capabilities
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1993 19:56:36 CDT
**esper@***.umn.edu has brought up an interesting question.

You seem to want to use "batch" files or something similiar, maybe som
code with "exec" statements in it. Whats to say such routines exist
in the Matrix? That is up to the GM.

Lets assume that the Matrix does allow this, your lead program (the ne
one with offense and defense capa.) would overload EVERY SYSTEM it
was ever put on. The program would consists of atleast these parts:

1) Decision routines as to where it should head. Small I guess. You
may be looking for datastores, which are near SPUs behind heavy IC.
Fine, small code.

2) You offensive and defensive routines. Well those take up quite a bit
of space, not quite that of a standard Decker in the matrix.

3) Your smart frame would have to have decking skill equal to that of your
lowest grade utility. This is AI stuff now! Huge database of info
on the matrix and each utility! You SF would have to be able to tell
what part of its code is getting attacked by the IC and fix it/work
around it sense this is what a decker is doing!

With that last point in mind, Maybe several programs could be used to
accomplish your task, but not one. It would just be too damn big.

cpatri@**.tamu.edu
Message no. 4
From: Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Smart Frame Capabilities
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1993 23:13:56 -0500
From: Curtis W Patrick <cpatri@**.tamu.edu>

>**esper@***.umn.edu has brought up an interesting question.

>You seem to want to use "batch" files or something similiar, maybe som
>code with "exec" statements in it. Whats to say such routines exist
>in the Matrix? That is up to the GM.

Of course they exist in the Matrix. As I already pointed out, it would
be a _huge_ step backwards to require that every data transfer be
started manually or that system backups must be done by hand, one file
at a time. (These are the practical effects of saying that a program
can't perform transfers or system operations without direct supervision.)

>1) Decision routines as to where it should head. Small I guess. You
>2) You offensive and defensive routines. Well those take up quite a bit
>3) Your smart frame would have to have decking skill equal to that of your
> lowest grade utility. This is AI stuff now! Huge database of info
> on the matrix and each utility! You SF would have to be able to tell
> what part of its code is getting attacked by the IC and fix it/work
> around it sense this is what a decker is doing!

Um... This seems to be a good description of what _every_ smart frame
needs - a set of programs, routines to tell it where to go, and something
(an Auto Execute program, to be exact) which allows it to use the programs
it contains. Frames don't need decking skill at all, they just need an
Auto Execute program and instructions regarding how to handle various
situations. (Even if they did need decking skill, the SkillSoft size
table informs me that a level 6 specialization (such as Decking) takes
120 Mp - a whopping increase of _1_ in the frame's load rating...)

Why would it require more AI to accomplish "Run a Browse program over each
file in the datastore and bring back any files containing a reference to
Project Omicron" than "If a single ice program is encountered, attack it;
if two or more ice programs are encountered, launch your Smoke and attempt
to leave the system"?


>With that last point in mind, Maybe several programs could be used to
>accomplish your task, but not one. It would just be too damn big.

I do still agree that a frame which has to deal with ice will generate a
lot more load than a decker of equal effectiveness because a) a frame can't
shift programs to Storage Memory to reduce its Load Rating and b) frames
don't get hacking pools. They'd also have trouble in combat because of the
severely limited MPCP and Persona (Bod, Masking, Sensors, and Evasion)
ratings and a lack of hardening. (Particularly since all of them except
MPCP don't generate any load for a decker...) Of course, you could write a
modified frame to run from within your deck as if it were a (dumb) decker...
That would sidestep all of these problems except the lack of a hacking
pool... (and it would be very vulnerable to trace and dump or burn
programs) But that would be just as useless against a firewall as going
in yourself, which is what started this in the first place...

esper@***.umn.edu
Message no. 5
From: Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Subject: Smart Frame Capabilities
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 10:57:40 -0400
> From: Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
>
> >VR, pg. 44:
> >Commanding Smart Frames
> >Smart Frame Capabilties
> >.... A frame cannot download or copy files. nor perform system
> >operations of any kind....
>
> >If a smart frame could be sent in to find some data and bring it back,
> >what would be the point of ever running the decker. Just make up a
> >kickin' frame and have it do all the decking. (Very munchinisk view)
>
> As the person who originally suggested sending a data-retrival frame to
> counter a firewall system, I'd like to point out that when I made the
> suggestion, I mentioned that I was aware of this statement in VR, but
> chose to ignore it. Why? Not munchkinism, but rather realism - as the
> poster who originally suggested the firewalls has stated, all this quote
> does is show FASA's ignorance about computers. Give me 2 or three minutes
> (just in case I'm typing slowly), and I can create a dumb frame to perform
> a system operation on my PC, and I'm not even good enough to break into
> a basic unix box. (The 'dumb frame' I reference is also known as a .BATch
> file, and I can use it to perform any DOS command, most of which are
> system operations - listing, moving, or deleting files, etc.) Give me
> a little time to work on it, and I can write programs that will do file
> transfers without supervision - a data retrieval frame. And again, I'm not
> even close to being in the standard decker's league. FASA hasn't given any
> information that suggests that such activities would be more difficult in
> 2054, and, if it were, it would be a major step backwards, as it would
> require that everything a computer does be supervised. That rule is
> horribly unrealistic.

The whole way that deckers operate is horribly unrealistic in SR. Not
only does FASA have no idea how networks and system architecture
works, but they show a general ignorance of software development. But
for game balance, frames should not do system functions. If you let
them do that, by all means give them more AI capability as well. Then
a decker is obsolete. The decker won't ever HAVE to risk his life in
some dangerous system. I know of several people that write all kinds
of scripts/.bat files to do all their work for them anyway. And
besides how in the world did you make the analogy between frames and
.bat files? I consider a frame to be some very limited persona, not a
.bat file that has a set of commands that are executed under SET
conditions (state of variables, system functions, etc.). To my way of
thinking, frames are more mobile constructs that the only analogous
items to know would be part worm, part AI. .bat files can not make any
inteligent decision unless you include some form of AI routine into
them. I have tried doing this. It makes my PC want to barf when it
tries to execute a .bat file that takes up 240K. I think it has
something to do with the way DOS handles its memory allocation for
.bat style processes. But they work on most Unix based systems. But
one thing you forget is a decker must make a computer test to perform
system operations, even downloading, how is a frame to do this without
having any known programs to do this, or computer skill? They can't.
If they could use a program to perform system functions, then deckers
would not have to use a computer test to do it. If you are going to
change the decking system a little that is fine. I have done it also.
But try to find a rational reason behind doing it that works with the
rules you do keep.

>
> What would be the point of ever running the decker? Lots of stuff - for
> starters, frames can't write themselves. Frames aren't nearly as effective
> as deckers because they don't have a hacking pool. Frames can't vary the
> load rating they generate, making them more susceptible to freezing in low-
> capacity nodes. (Another rule I ignore is the one about all programs in
> active memory increasing a decker's load rating even if they're not being
> used at the time...) And, of course, the smartest frame is still pretty
> stupid compared to any decker. Aside from not having to risk your neck (or
> your deck), I can't find a single advantage to using a frame instead of
> going in yourself. Oh, just thought of one - you can be doing something
> else while the frame is working for you. Got any others?
>

1. I have yet to meet a character who takes the 100+ days to actually write
a program by himself. That is kind of boring for a character to do on a run
or between runs don't you agree. What are the advantages besides people
finding out about it and calling you stupid? Tailored viruses?

2. You have many of the same arguments I have about the decking system.
But to keep things balanced I prefer to use as much of the rules as I
can stomach.

> esper@***.umn.edu
>

-- Quiktek
a.k.a. Todd Montgomery
tmont@****.wvu.edu
tmont@***.wvu.edu
un032507@*******.wvnet.edu

Further Reading

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