Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	"A.R.Gay" <cs6004@***.AC.UK>
Subject:	Smartgun Links.
Date:	Tue, 14 Jun 1994 13:26:14 +0100

Message no. 1 Ok, here goes on my translation of how smartguns work. I am
resonably sure that this was in one of the novels or in a
description hidden in one of the rule/source books. It is also
why I do not let people with an encephalon get a chance to use
two smartlinked weapons, symaltaneously. (One in each hand. )
When the link is activated, usualy by concentrating on it, or it
may be that the position where the gun is pointing is outside
the users feild of vision. Anyway when activated or brought
into sight a small red/black/green or whatever other colour dot
you want is imediatly placed upon the position that the weapon
is pointing. This means that you can only use a smartgun bonus
when fireing at things whithin your LOS. So no useing a SG
bonus through walls, around corners, or behind you.

Steel was saying about the Street sam that took down three
players, It was my idea I'm afraid, and I nearly paid with my
characters life. The plain street Sam from the rule book (Oh
work out his essance loss one day, he has more than 6 points. )
Give him a Savalette Gaurdian, from FoF, and use aimed shots and
BF. This is 9M +2(for burst)M +1 level for burst and
another for aiming = 11D! This is enough to take down a player
with bod 3 and 6 points of armour. The mess was quite something
else.

Bye for now,
***************************************************************************
* JackFrost <cs6004@****.wlv.ac.uk> For all your shadowtech requirements.*
* "Good, Bad, I'm the guy with the gun!" *
* -- Ash, from Army of Darkness *
***************************************************************************

From:	Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links.
Date:	Tue, 14 Jun 1994 10:35:58 -0400

Message no. 2 I would allow the use of two smartgun links without an
encephalon. You would still pay off hand penalty modifiers, and the
links probably wouldn't work as well (say only -1), but if your sighting
reticles that are displayed on your retina were different
colors/configurations, you could tell which gun was pointing at which
target. Now granted, you may only be looking AT a single target, but
targeting with "detached vision" ala many martial arts is easy, and I
speak from experience. As the rules go, people with smartgun links
actually have higher mods for firing two weapons than people with no mods
at all.

Now, this can produce some serious street-monsters, like one
character I played. He had two custom smartgun links, a peripheral
Motion Detection System, bargain basement Wired-3 and a BAD attitude (not
to mention suicidal tendencies). Anyway I once downed SIX opponents in
one complex action. Of course, what I'm not telling you is that I was
firing two Sandler TMP's on full auto, I had the drop on them all
(surprise!), and I had a specialization in Sandler that was pretty much
my exclusive account for all my good Karma. It was around a twelve.
Anyway, after factoring in the recoil from both guns applies to both
guns, secondary, tertiary, and so on target modifiers, and so on, my
target number to hit the last guy with all four rounds that I fired at
him was a 24. Unfortunately, he lived (albeit with a serious wound).
All the rest were dead, and with Wired 3, I wnet first. Heh.

Now granted, some may call that munchkin, but it was in
character, and if you had played in the campaign, you would know that the
character had more than his share of problems. I post this example so
you can see what can be done in shadowrun. Granted, the above example
was miraculous (I rolled above a 24! Nobody was as surprised as me, the
exception being the GM), but it is possible. Be warned.

From:	Rob Moulton <szicepik@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links.
Date:	Tue, 14 Jun 1994 22:54:37 -0700

Message no. 3 Thought. Wouldn't it be possible to program a smartgun link to fire ONLY
when the crosshairs in your cyber-eye's display link hit a target? Maybe
those targets that are locked onto with a tactical computer? I have a
decker/samurai (named Icepick, go figure) who has enough senses to track
20 targets with his tac computer. Now, if he was good enough to wield two
weapons, maybe say two heavy pistols, is it not realistic to say that he
could step out from behind a barrier, have locked on to those targets, and
then take out a good percentage of them on his first action (of course,
providing that he could divide his attack dice among his targets)? And
then, as long as he got one success on each, he could just burn karma and
kill em all. He wouldn't even have to look at them all. He could just
move the guns around and as soon as the crosshairs hit a locked target
they would fire. Thoughts? Ideas? Answers to this hypothetical
scenario.

Rob

==========================================
= Control: It's as easy as decking in... =
= rjmoulton <szicepik@****.ucdavis.edu> =

From:	Rob Moulton <szicepik@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links.
Date:	Wed, 15 Jun 1994 01:23:47 -0700

Message no. 4 Robert Watkins wrote:

> Thought: Well, the gun is only meant to fire when it's on a target, I
> believe. That's why it's a -2 bonus, not a -1. Also, what about dodging?
> People, especially people being shot at, don't stay in one place.
> And what's a target? Humans? Well, the orc won't get shot at. Flesh?
> Neither will the guy in full combat armour. Humanoid shaped things? Well,
> you plastered that statue, but the guys crouched down behind the crates
> are okay, and so's that combat drone...
>
> You get the picture, I'm sure. :) While AI pattern matching here could
> probably solve a lot of the above, it can't be perfect. At best, you'd
> have the situation described in NAGRL, with the gun ports. I say at best,
> cause I'm sure they'd use the best that's readily available.

Well, this is how I would do it. I would flip to IR on my eyes, peek out
and lock on to my targets with my tac computer. I'm not even sure how
long it takes to lock on so I might not even need to peek first, just jump
up and lock on. That way I won't lock on to that statue. Only heat
sources. Plus, I know that I can add targets, including that guy in full
combat armor or that drone. Hell, I could lock onto any moving target and
that would cover anyting. Also, with a good set of IR eyes, I would be
able to find heat traces through walls or see signatures bleed from behind
tables, etc. Plus, with an Orientation chip in, they won't get away. so,
I jump up, lock on and connect my smartgun trigger with my display link.
So when the crosshairs touch one of my highlighted targets, (I assume
that on my eyes I see an outline of the person or some kind of indicator to
tell me which targets are locked onto) the gun fires. This shoudl be
easy to program. Heck I'm a decker. No problem. What my question is,
negating all trivial points, is: could I use two guns and would it be
possible to take 'em down? Targeting them is not a problem. Shooting is
not a problem. Could someone devise such a system as I've described that
could assist in shooting multiple targets with minimal ammo loss?
Something that would only allow say, one bullet per target. Would it be
legal at the county fair to use with those light guns? More thoughts?

Oh, also, you said what about dodging? I don't think I've ever shot at
someone who was stationary. And the use of a tac computer pretty much
negates those modifiers for moving targets. I'm not sure on that, but it
seems reasonable

Rob

From:	Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links.
Date:	Wed, 15 Jun 1994 10:13:08 -0400

Message no. 5 On Tue, 14 Jun 1994, Rob Moulton wrote:

> Thought. Wouldn't it be possible to program a smartgun link to fire ONLY
> when the crosshairs in your cyber-eye's display link hit a target? Maybe
> those targets that are locked onto with a tactical computer? I have a
> decker/samurai (named Icepick, go figure) who has enough senses to track
> 20 targets with his tac computer. Now, if he was good enough to wield two
> weapons, maybe say two heavy pistols, is it not realistic to say that he
> could step out from behind a barrier, have locked on to those targets, and
> then take out a good percentage of them on his first action (of course,
> providing that he could divide his attack dice among his targets)? And
> then, as long as he got one success on each, he could just burn karma and
> kill em all. He wouldn't even have to look at them all. He could just
> move the guns around and as soon as the crosshairs hit a locked target
> they would fire. Thoughts? Ideas? Answers to this hypothetical
> scenario.
>
> Rob
>
> ==========================================
> = Control: It's as easy as decking in... =
> = rjmoulton <szicepik@****.ucdavis.edu> =
> ==========================================
>
Evil. I kinda like it...

Marc

From:	Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject:	Smartgun Links
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 18:57:51 -0400

Message no. 6 Due to the recent discussion about Smartgun links, I've got a question.
Do ya'll buy them per hand, or does one link go to both hands. Also, do
you allow them to go through gloves, etc.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:41:41 +1000

Message no. 7 Bai Shen writes:
> Due to the recent discussion about Smartgun links, I've got a question.
> Do ya'll buy them per hand, or does one link go to both hands. Also, do
> you allow them to go through gloves, etc.

You buy them per hand, though you might be able to get a discount for both
hands (IIRC, you need Smartlink II to use two guns at once).

Strictly speaking, the induction pad in the hand needs to be in contact with
the gun, but there's at least one example of gloves that lets you use the
smartgun... armour. Presumably the induction pad will work through a small
amount of fabric/armour (induction doesn't require direct contact, but still
needs to be fairly close).

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

From:	Jeffrey Jones <whitebuddha@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 18:47:49 -0700

Message no. 8 ---Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM> wrote:
>
> Due to the recent discussion about Smartgun links, I've got a
question.
> Do ya'll buy them per hand, or does one link go to both hands.
Also, do
> you allow them to go through gloves, etc.
> --
> Bai Shen
> Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
> http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
> UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me
anything.)
>
A) you have to buy a seperate smartgun link for each hand.

B) there is an induction pad on your palm, so no it will not work
through gloves
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From:	One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:53:38 PDT

Message no. 9 >Due to the recent discussion about Smartgun links, I've got a question.
>Do ya'll buy them per hand, or does one link go to both hands. Also,
do
>you allow them to go through gloves, etc.

There's a couple of ways to handle this. In my game, there are three
diff types of internal smartlinks.

#1: The standard palm induction types

#2: Head datajack to plug in Fiber-optic cable and run it to the gun.
Data jacks are so common, people won't automatically think that you have
a smartlink like they do when they see the discolored palms.

#3: A built-in radio transmitter/reciever that sends signals back and
forth between the smartgun and the headware. Infinitely concealable but
easily jammed. Also, most costly and less essence friendly.

#2 and #3 allow you to avoid the glove issue, but forget about wearing a
helmate with #2 (and that pesky cable gets in the fragging way). Also,
the signals from #3 can be used to trace you to your current location if
you are, let's say, running around in a corp facility.

Also, if someone with a smartlink doesn't need to pull the trigger on a
smartgun to fire it, then with the #3 implant, you can leave it on the
table and fire it from your living room couch. Although, I wouldn't
give it a transmitting range any further than 1 - 2 meters. That could
pose some interesting possibilities.

EST SULARUS OTH MITHAS.

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From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:51:22 -0500

Message no. 10 On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 18:57:51 -0400 Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
writes:
>Due to the recent discussion about Smartgun links, I've got a question.
>Do ya'll buy them per hand, or does one link go to both hands. Also, do
>you allow them to go through gloves, etc.
>--
>Bai Shen
<SNIP Sig>

It's per hand. No discount for getting two. Only discount is if you get
them in a cyberarm (don't know about getting them in a cyber forarm or
cyberhand).

No discount is listed for getting them in a cybertorso or cyberskull.

I checked the entry for induction datajacks in Cybertechnology but I
couldn't find anything about whether or not a layer of cloth would
interfere with the transfer. IMO, it wouldn't unless the intervening
layer was too thick and/or was a good insulator ... (IOW, standard
gloves, I think, would work but not thick leather gloves, rubber gloves,
or shock gloves.)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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From:	Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:08:33 PDT

Message no. 11 Hey, what is up with all the pictures in cyberpunk and SR game books
where the person has a Datajack with a cable connecting to their gun. I
though smart links were internal.

Is there a cheaper way of making a smart gun work. EG: Data jack,
headware memory, encephalon, smart capable gun and a special program?

Or is it just stylistic?

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From:	westln@***.EDU
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:23:12 -0400

Message no. 12 >---Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM> wrote:
>>
>> Due to the recent discussion about Smartgun links, I've got a
>question.
>> Do ya'll buy them per hand, or does one link go to both hands.
>Also, do
>> you allow them to go through gloves, etc.
>> --
>> Bai Shen
>> Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
>> http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
>> UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me
>anything.)
>>
>A) you have to buy a seperate smartgun link for each hand.
>
>B) there is an induction pad on your palm, so no it will not work
>through gloves
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

In the older versions of ShadowRun, you did not need an induction pad to
use a smartlink. You could have a jack instead. This saved some essence
since you didn't pay for the wire and induction connection. So I would
imagine it is possible to buy two sets of wires and the headware. Or you
can forget about the induction pad and just have one jack. All you have to
do is stretch that wire.

Lorden

From:	One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:21:07 PDT

Message no. 13 >
>Hey, what is up with all the pictures in cyberpunk and SR game books
>where the person has a Datajack with a cable connecting to their gun. I
>though smart links were internal.
>
>Is there a cheaper way of making a smart gun work. EG: Data jack,
>headware memory, encephalon, smart capable gun and a special program?
>
>Or is it just stylistic?
>

Check out my earlier post on this subject. The datajack connection does
seem to be a preveliant one in Cyberpunk. Although, I figure that
carrying around that FO cable would be a pain in the ass, plus I could
see it getting in the way of stuff and tangling around other gear that
the character is carrying. However, just having a datajack will not
automatically make people think you've got a smartlink.

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From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:18:06 -0500

Message no. 14 On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:08:33 PDT Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM> writes:
>Hey, what is up with all the pictures in cyberpunk and SR game books
>where the person has a Datajack with a cable connecting to their gun. I
>though smart links were internal.
>
>Is there a cheaper way of making a smart gun work. EG: Data jack,
>headware memory, encephalon, smart capable gun and a special program?
>
>Or is it just stylistic?
<SNIP>

You could say it's .25 Essence (The essence cost for installing in a
cyberlimb.) plus the datajack. i wouldn't give it a price discount,
though.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:58:23 -0400

Message no. 15 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:53 PM 9/7/98 -0700, Ronnin wrote:
>#2: Head datajack to plug in Fiber-optic cable and run it to the
gun.
>Data jacks are so common, people won't automatically think that you
have
>a smartlink like they do when they see the discolored palms.

Actually, way back in SR1, you could plug a smartgun equipped firearm
into a datajack.
Just looked it up for SR2 and SR3, and much to my surprise, the
datajack is not a listed option.

I suppose that it just made the datajack too powerful a piece of ware,
to allow it to duplicate the functions of a smartlink by itself, with
no other headware.

There is consensus that the "headware" part of the smartlink system
costs .25 Essence, is there not? That's what they charge you for a
smartlink if you've got a cyberarm, and since you're not paying the
essence cost for the induction pad down in the cyberarm, then what's
left over is the headware, correct?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:58:34 -0400

Message no. 16 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:51 PM 9/7/98 -0500, D.ghost wrote:
>>Due to the recent discussion about Smartgun links, I've got a
question.
>>Do ya'll buy them per hand, or does one link go to both hands.
Also, do
>>you allow them to go through gloves, etc.

>It's per hand. No discount for getting two. Only discount is if you
get
>them in a cyberarm (don't know about getting them in a cyber forarm
or
>cyberhand).

I think that there should be a discount, even if the rules don't spell
one out.
Here's my logic:

Extra devices in cyberarms don't usually cost extra essence, unless a
brain connection is involved, or the device would put extra strain on
the body.

Smartlinks require brain connection, to recieve neural commands, and
to put the crosshairs into the user's field of vision. A smartlink in
a cyberarm only costs .25 essence; this represents the "headware" end
of the smartlink system.

A smartlink in a meat arm costs .5 essence, subtracting the .25 for
the "headware" end, that leaves .25 for the induction pad.

Therefore, if a runner wanted an induction pad in each hand, _I_ would
charge them .75 essence. YMMV.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:59:12 -0400

Message no. 17 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:08 PM 9/7/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Hey, what is up with all the pictures in cyberpunk and SR game books
>where the person has a Datajack with a cable connecting to their gun.
I
>though smart links were internal.

First edition rules allowed you to get input from a smartgun equipped
firearm through a datajack.

This has been phased out in the subsequent editions, apparently to
tighten the concept of the datajack down to just transfering data, and
providing the basic brain connections to feed an ASIST signal into.

>Is there a cheaper way of making a smart gun work. EG: Data jack,
>headware memory, encephalon, smart capable gun and a special program?

I'd say if you follow my reasoning (see other posts) for splitting the
smartlink into two .25 essence pieces, .25 for the smartlink
"headware" and .25 for the induction pad, then I don't see why you
couldn't have a datajack feeding into a stand alone piece of smartlink
headware for .45 essence (not much of a savings, is it?)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:15:04 -0500

Message no. 18 On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:58:34 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>At 09:51 PM 9/7/98 -0500, D.ghost wrote:
<SNIP>
>I think that there should be a discount, even if the rules don't spell
one out.
>Here's my logic:
>
>Extra devices in cyberarms don't usually cost extra essence, unless a
>brain connection is involved, or the device would put extra strain on
>the body.
>
>Smartlinks require brain connection, to recieve neural commands, and
>to put the crosshairs into the user's field of vision. A smartlink in
>a cyberarm only costs .25 essence; this represents the "headware" end
>of the smartlink system.
>
>A smartlink in a meat arm costs .5 essence, subtracting the .25 for
>the "headware" end, that leaves .25 for the induction pad.
>
>Therefore, if a runner wanted an induction pad in each hand, _I_ would
>charge them .75 essence. YMMV.
<SNIP PGP>
> -- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
<SNIP More PGP>

You could always chalk the lack of discount up to adding in a feature
that lets you switch between Smartlinks and/or integrate them. (I, btw,
allow Smartlinks to give normal bonuses while firing with two weapons,
thus, someone firing short range with two Smartguns has a base Target
number of 4.)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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From:	XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:39:07 -0500

Message no. 19 From Westln@***.edu

> In the older versions of ShadowRun, you did not need an induction pad to
> use a smartlink. You could have a jack instead. This saved some essence
> since you didn't pay for the wire and induction connection.

Ah...NO. SR1, p 128 under "Smartgun Link": "Typical systems use a subdermal
induction pad in the user's palm to link with the smartgun".

I think here might be a reason to do it differently than a induction pad,
but this is NOT the same as plugging a smartgun into a datajack. Sheesh. If
you're going use a house rule, fine, but this isn't a part of the rules.
There is *no* variable price for a smartgun link. 0.5 essence for a regular.
0.25 essence for one built into a cyberlimb. Granted, a house rule might
work, but the price is the price is the price.

From Paul Gettle:
-------
Actually, way back in SR1, you could plug a smartgun equipped firearm
into a datajack.
Just looked it up for SR2 and SR3, and much to my surprise, the
datajack is not a listed option.
-------

Ah...NO. I'd really like to see a reference for this in the rules. Sure, you
can interpret a house rule from some artwork, but this simply isn't a rule
in the book.

Okay, as I'm looking for artwork that shows a smartgun of *any* type, I
can't find any. BUT, I did find something that makes me feel dumb. (But it
looks more like a dumb mistake by FASA that was corrected in later versions
of the game). Here goes...

SR1, p 120...Smartgun Adapter: "Without a receptor (datajack, smart goggles,
or smartgun link), the hardware is simply dead weight."

Okay, this is dumb. Datajack for 0.1 essence and 1000¥, or smartgun link for
0.5 essence and 2500¥ with lesser functionality. Common sense would tell you
that this is an unbalancing mistake.

For one rationale...the datajack has a completely different functionality
than something that can project targeting information on the user's retina
or cybereye. I'd think that at the very least, some form of display link
(0.1 essence, 1000¥) would be needed to use a datajack like this. At which,
I would apply some role-playing drawbacks to help cover the difference.
(Visible data lines, and incompatible interfaces for smartguns, etc).

Bah, SR3 all the way.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:59:40 +1000

Message no. 20 Xaos writes:
> > In the older versions of ShadowRun, you did not need an induction pad to
> > use a smartlink. You could have a jack instead. This saved some essence
> > since you didn't pay for the wire and induction connection.
>
> Ah...NO. SR1, p 128 under "Smartgun Link": "Typical systems use a
> subdermal
> induction pad in the user's palm to link with the smartgun".

You're looking in the wrong place... in the description of the Smartgun
Adaptor (not the link), it should say something about how you can plug it
into the datajack (with a cable, of course), to get an effect similar to
either a full link or smart goggles (I forget which, but I suspect that it
gave the equivalent of goggles). Also check out the firearms rules, where it
explains what a smartgun link does for you.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

From:	XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 01:50:48 -0500

Message no. 21 > You're looking in the wrong place... in the description of the Smartgun
> Adaptor (not the link), it should say something about how you can plug it
> into the datajack (with a cable, of course), to get an effect similar to
> either a full link or smart goggles (I forget which, but I suspect that it
> gave the equivalent of goggles). Also check out the firearms
> rules, where it
> explains what a smartgun link does for you.

Apparently you didn't read the rest of my message. I corrected my error (if
it could actually be called that), later in the message. And, I'm relatively
familiar with what a smartgun link does for me, thanks. ;)

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:07:58 +1000

Message no. 22 XaOs writes:
> Apparently you didn't read the rest of my message. I corrected my
> error (if
> it could actually be called that), later in the message. And, I'm
> relatively
> familiar with what a smartgun link does for me, thanks. ;)

I did read it... but you still want to read the firearms section, where it
will tell you that using a smartgun through a datajack gives the effect of
using
smartgoggles, which is only -1 to the TN, instead of -2.

(OTH, XaOs... if you correct yourself within the same message, you might as
well go back to the mistake and fix it there. This is correspondence, not
conversation, you know)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 03:42:18 -0700

Message no. 23 :I checked the entry for induction datajacks in Cybertechnology but I
:couldn't find anything about whether or not a layer of cloth would
:interfere with the transfer. IMO, it wouldn't unless the intervening
:layer was too thick and/or was a good insulator ... (IOW, standard
:gloves, I think, would work but not thick leather gloves, rubber gloves,
:or shock gloves.)

I don't think induction is blocked by an insulator. You would need
you avoid inadvertent magnetic shielding, though- although what clothing
would do that, I couldn't say.

Mongoose

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:11:15 +0200

Message no. 24 Bai Shen said on 18:57/7 Sep 98,...

> Due to the recent discussion about Smartgun links, I've got a question.
> Do ya'll buy them per hand, or does one link go to both hands.

Per hand, so if you want a link in both hands you pay nuyen and Essence
twice.

> Also, do you allow them to go through gloves, etc.

Yes, provided the gloves aren't too think (or magnetically insulated for
some reason ;) It says it's an induction pad, and that should work without
direct contact between the two connectors. If you look at the description
closely, it says "subdermal induction pad" which means it's powerful
enough to get through skin at least.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:58:36 -0600

Message no. 25 At 23:59 9/7/98 -0400, Paul Gettle wrote

>First edition rules allowed you to get input from a smartgun equipped
>firearm through a datajack.
>
>This has been phased out in the subsequent editions, apparently to
>tighten the concept of the datajack down to just transfering data, and
>providing the basic brain connections to feed an ASIST signal into.

Telling a gun to fire via a mental command is a transfer of data.. :-)

Once I get SR3 (Hopefully today..), I'll probably work my interpretation of
smartlinks into a TSS article. They're a piece of cyberware that's used
too much with too little description, and could use some fun variations.

-Adam J
-
< TSS Productions down temporarily - New URL Soon! / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< "Raven loves me! He just bought me a new rubber ducky!" - Lodi >
< TSS : ftp://thor.flashpt.com/pub/srun/ShadowrunSupplemental/pdf >

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:42:15 -0500

Message no. 26 ----------
> From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Smartgun Links
> Date: 08 September 1998 00:39
>
> >From Westln@***.edu
>
> > In the older versions of ShadowRun, you did not need an induction pad
to
> > use a smartlink. You could have a jack instead. This saved some
essence
> > since you didn't pay for the wire and induction connection.
>
> Ah...NO. SR1, p 128 under "Smartgun Link": "Typical systems use a
subdermal
> induction pad in the user's palm to link with the smartgun".
>
> I think here might be a reason to do it differently than a induction
pad,
> but this is NOT the same as plugging a smartgun into a datajack. Sheesh.
If
> you're going use a house rule, fine, but this isn't a part of the rules.
> There is *no* variable price for a smartgun link. 0.5 essence for a
regular.
> 0.25 essence for one built into a cyberlimb. Granted, a house rule might
> work, but the price is the price is the price.

The variable price if implanted in a cyber arm is from Cybertechnology,
Xaos

From:	Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:45:28 +1000

Message no. 27 >The variable price if implanted in a cyber arm is from Cybertechnology,

The variable price for a smartgun link implanted in a cybernetic
replacement arm is found on page 138 of Shadowrun First Edition. It is not
listed in the smartlink description or in the cyberarm description but it
is listed in the equipment lists (as page 138 indicates).

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:47:10 -0400

Message no. 28 On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 westln@***.EDU wrote:

->In the older versions of ShadowRun, you did not need an induction pad to
->use a smartlink. You could have a jack instead. This saved some essence
->since you didn't pay for the wire and induction connection. So I would
->imagine it is possible to buy two sets of wires and the headware. Or you
->can forget about the induction pad and just have one jack. All you have to
->do is stretch that wire.

Although......... a fingertip datajack (Shadowtechnology) and a
smartgun would still be pretty subtle.... if you can hide your hand. At
least, more subtle than a cord running from your forehead into your
jacket pocket.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:02:02 -0500

Message no. 29 > > There is *no* variable price for a smartgun link. 0.5 essence for a
> regular.
> > 0.25 essence for one built into a cyberlimb. Granted, a house rule might
> > work, but the price is the price is the price.
>
> The variable price if implanted in a cyber arm is from Cybertechnology,
> Xaos

Nexx, my point was that there was no variable price for a smartgun link that
wasn't an induction pad. I stated the rules (in the main book even!) for the
prices for a smartgun link that included the discount for being implanted in
a cyberlimb. (But, I can see how my phrasing might have been confused that
way).

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net

From:	Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:29:15 -0500

Message no. 30 >B) there is an induction pad on your palm, so no it will not work
>through gloves

Depends on the gloves; most armor gloves still allow you the use of the
smartgun link, which leads me to believe that most gloves (at least armor
gloves) have a conductor in the palm that allows the subdermal induction pad
to do its thing.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:47:13 -0400

Message no. 31 At 11:59 PM 9/7/98 -0400, you wrote:

>First edition rules allowed you to get input from a smartgun equipped
>firearm through a datajack.
>
>This has been phased out in the subsequent editions, apparently to
>tighten the concept of the datajack down to just transfering data, and
>providing the basic brain connections to feed an ASIST signal into.

I thought I remembered this.

How about this for a modern (SR3) alternative...

Datajack plus Cybereyes with Display Link. Datajack runs from the
smartlinked gun to the datajack.

Sort of a cybered version of smartgun link goggles, with the same benefits
(-1 TN).

It's a thought anyway and might be interesting to some. Perhaps someone
else brought it up, but I must have lost it in the 700 messages I've had to
plow through...

Erik J.

Who thinks those SCA folks do at least one thing right; those belt-loop
cup-holders are friggin' brilliant!!

From:	Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:31:25 EDT

Message no. 32 In a message dated 9/7/98 9:01:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

> There is consensus that the "headware" part of the smartlink system
> costs .25 Essence, is there not? That's what they charge you for a
> smartlink if you've got a cyberarm, and since you're not paying the
> essence cost for the induction pad down in the cyberarm, then what's
> left over is the headware, correct?
>
IMO, almost correct. That is what is left over if you have a cyber-limb, but I
think it also includes some form of wiring from the palm, to the control unit
to the eye. Since it has a display on the eye, I allow .1 of the essence to be
"put in" the eye (counting towards the .5)
but you still have a neural interface (ejecting a mag by a mental command)
I have a Smart-Gauntlet that has a palm induction pad tied to the
smartgoggles as part of my Runner-sneak-suit on my site
(http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum) for those that do not have cyber.

From:	Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:34:36 EDT

Message no. 33 In a message dated 9/7/98 9:16:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

>
> I'd say if you follow my reasoning (see other posts) for splitting the
> smartlink into two .25 essence pieces, .25 for the smartlink
> "headware" and .25 for the induction pad, then I don't see why you
> couldn't have a datajack feeding into a stand alone piece of smartlink
> headware for .45 essence (not much of a savings, is it?)
Since I allow the essence break for cyberhands, you could get a cyber-hand,
with all the essence free fingertip compartments you want, for a total essence
of .6 (.35 for hand. 25 for link) Is this too munchy?

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:00:09 -0400

Message no. 34 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:39 AM 9/8/98 -0500, XaOs wrote:
>>From Paul Gettle:
>-------
>Actually, way back in SR1, you could plug a smartgun equipped firearm
>into a datajack.
>Just looked it up for SR2 and SR3, and much to my surprise, the
>datajack is not a listed option.
>-------
>
>Ah...NO. I'd really like to see a reference for this in the rules.
Sure, you
>can interpret a house rule from some artwork, but this simply isn't a
rule
>in the book.

Alright, see your own post, a couple of lines down, since you found
the rule in the SR1 book on your own:

>SR1, p 120...Smartgun Adapter: "Without a receptor (datajack, smart
goggles,
>or smartgun link), the hardware is simply dead weight."

>Okay, this is dumb. Datajack for 0.1 essence and 1000¥, or smartgun
link for
>0.5 essence and 2500¥ with lesser functionality. Common sense would
tell you
>that this is an unbalancing mistake.

Standard Datajacks are .2 esssence. (Sure there's cheaper ones from
Shadowtech, but you can't use the Shadowtech Datajacks w/o a piece of
headware that can act as an Input/Output control device, either the
I/O SPU, or an Encephalon.) That's still cheaper than what a Smartlink
costs in essence, but it's 40% of the cost of a Smartlink, not 20%.

And while it's true that the datajack costs less nuyen, less essence,
and is more socially acceptable, there is a _signifigant_ hassle
factor when using a datajack to recieve smartgun input. You're tied to
your gun by a fiber-optic cord. There's cord-length problems, since
too long a cord can tangle you up, and too short of a cord would
either restrict your movement, or pop the connector from the gun at
exactly the wrong moment. Then there's the fact that someone using a
smartlink is linked with their weapon the instant they touch their
gun, while someone using a datajack has to plug in first. You could
leave the cord plugged in, but that could call attention to your
weapon.

The extra .3 essence, and the aditional 1.5K¥ are well worth the
convience of not having to worry about plugs and cords, and being
linked to one's smartgun whenever it's in your hand.

>For one rationale...the datajack has a completely different
functionality
>than something that can project targeting information on the user's
retina
>or cybereye. I'd think that at the very least, some form of display
link
>(0.1 essence, 1000¥) would be needed to use a datajack like this. At
which,
>I would apply some role-playing drawbacks to help cover the
difference.
>(Visible data lines, and incompatible interfaces for smartguns, etc).

One of the primary functions of a Datajack is input of an
ASIST(simsense) signal into the brain. Normally, the user's own senses
are cut out from the brain when an ASIST signal is coming down the
datajack, but it's not a requirement. It's possible that a smartgun
could feed a limited ASIST signal in through the datajack, minus the
usual RAS Cutout that locks out the senses and the voluntary muscles,
and that way, a display link wouldn't be required.

Personally, though, I don't think such a system, with just a datajack
(or if you don't buy the above paragraph, and require a
datajack/display link combo) would be as responsive as a full
smartlink. That .25 essence worth of "headware" that's in a smartlink
has to be doing something, right? If someone wanted to use a bare
datajack to plug into their smartgun, I'd give them the smartgoggles
bonus, and not the smartlink bouns.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:17:59 -0400

Message no. 35 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:47 AM 9/8/98 -0400, Fixer wrote:
> Although......... a fingertip datajack (Shadowtechnology)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You misspelled "Cybertechnology". Hope This Helps. Have A Nice Day.
:)

>and a
>smartgun would still be pretty subtle.... if you can hide your hand.
At
>least, more subtle than a cord running from your forehead into your
>jacket pocket.

I still woudn't want to see someone using a Fingertip Datajack for
their smartgun connection go up against someone who uses a smartlink
induction pad for their smartgun connection in a fast-draw duel.

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:05:04 -0400

Message no. 36 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:07 PM 9/8/98 +1000, Robert wrote:
>I did read it... but you still want to read the firearms section,
where it
>will tell you that using a smartgun through a datajack gives the
effect of
>using
>smartgoggles, which is only -1 to the TN, instead of -2.

Can you tell us where you're finding this rule, Robert? I just went
through my BBB1's combat chapter, and I'll be damned if I find the
word datajack anywhere in there.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:35:16 -0400

Message no. 37 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:58 AM 9/8/98 -0600, Adam J wrote:
>>This has been phased out in the subsequent editions, apparently to
>>tighten the concept of the datajack down to just transfering data,
and
>>providing the basic brain connections to feed an ASIST signal into.
>
>Telling a gun to fire via a mental command is a transfer of data..
:-)

Tell that to XaOs. (I mean, I agree with you, but others on the list
seem almost violently opposed to the idea.)

>Once I get SR3 (Hopefully today..), I'll probably work my
interpretation of
>smartlinks into a TSS article. They're a piece of cyberware that's
used
>too much with too little description, and could use some fun
variations.

Are you going to charge .25 essence for the "headware" part of the
smartlink?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:23:00 -0400

Message no. 38 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:34 PM 9/8/98 -0400, Michael wrote:
>> I'd say if you follow my reasoning (see other posts) for splitting
the
>> smartlink into two .25 essence pieces, .25 for the smartlink
>> "headware" and .25 for the induction pad, then I don't see why you
>> couldn't have a datajack feeding into a stand alone piece of
smartlink
>> headware for .45 essence (not much of a savings, is it?)
>Since I allow the essence break for cyberhands, you could get a
cyber-hand,
>with all the essence free fingertip compartments you want, for a
total essence
>of .6 (.35 for hand. 25 for link) Is this too munchy?

At first blush, I'd say it's not. Just don't try to put too much else
in the way of implanted devices into the hand. No hand blades, or
microtronic devices.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Dom T-J <phobic@**.NET.AU>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:58:16 +1000

Message no. 39 >Since I allow the essence break for cyberhands, you could get a cyber-hand,
>with all the essence free fingertip compartments you want, for a total
essence
>of .6 (.35 for hand. 25 for link) Is this too munchy?

IMO, no. It makes practical sense... why make artificial limitations when
there are so many applicable real ones?

Phobic
"He who fears nothing save fear itself. And trolls with clubs."

From:	Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:17:10 EDT

Message no. 40 In a message dated 9/8/98 9:14:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

> No hand blades, or
> microtronic devices.
well, you gotta get the free spurs too, I mean, you chop off your hand, you
want a return on the investment. Sure the smart-lock pick thing is cool, and
maybe the mono-filament whip in the compartment, but ..... so where would the
munchy line be anyway? :-)

From:	Jaques Francois <pyrius@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:27:14 PDT

Message no. 41 Now ain't this the truth:

"They're a piece of cyberware that's used too much with too little
description"

This lack of description has lead to many a heated discussions about the
smartlink II. In the very vague description of the smII it's mentioned
that it has some kind of rangefinder for those extreme-ranged shots, and
somewhere else (in the hf cyberear description I think) it says that
rangefinders use hf sound which hf hearing mods can detect.
So if some runner has a smII, is holding a smII equiped firearm and is
hiding someplace, and a corp guard has a hf hearing mod... well some
extra heat is going to be on that runner.

If I've screwed up somewhere please tell me, because it's been so long
since I've had any of the relevant books is my possession.

You hear that Wilbur? I need my books back. I know where you live, son.
-Pyrius-

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Jaques Francois <pyrius@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:34:23 PDT

Message no. 42 If some clown wants a cable from their head to their weapon or a little
hole in it for their finger then let them have it; it will only cause
them grief :)
-Pyrius-

______________________________________________________
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From:	XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:35:37 -0500

Message no. 43 > I did read it... but you still want to read the firearms section, where it
> will tell you that using a smartgun through a datajack gives the effect of
> using
> smartgoggles, which is only -1 to the TN, instead of -2.

Well, no. Page 58. 'Firearms skill'. Nothing... Pages 64 through (oh say...)
69 'Fire combat' section. Nothing. I still don't see it. Can you elaborate
how the datajack option is equivalent to a smartgoggle setup? (I would agree
that perhaps that is closer to how it *should* work, but there is simply
nothing to be found there to suggest that in the rules as written).

> (OTH, XaOs... if you correct yourself within the same message,
> you might as
> well go back to the mistake and fix it there. This is correspondence, not
> conversation, you know)

Actually, I thought my message very effectively illustrated the confusion
evident in this (as I see it..munchkin) stretching of the rules. I had very
well documented within the main core of the rules (with references), how I
understood the rules to be. But lo and behold...I forgot to look at smartgun
adaptation in the firearms accessories section. Heaven forbid that I assume
(yes yes, I know the benny hill-ism, and agree), that I can actually find
the rules in the rules part, rather than the accessories to equipment part.
So perhaps it was laziness on my part to not just delete my message since I
was so skillfully shown to be wrong by the equipment list of the rules.
Rather than putting all that work to waste, I then illustrated what I
*thought* about what the use of those rules would imply. If it came down to
it, I would state that I believe the section of the firearms accessory
equipment might be worthy of errata, as it somewhat contradicts the main
body of the rules in an unbalancing fashion. An unbalance which could only
effectively be rebalanced by applying house rules.

And if I want to be conversational in my messages, then I will. I've never
made a serious assessment of my sanity in any case.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net

From:	XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:52:59 -0500

Message no. 44 > Tell that to XaOs. (I mean, I agree with you, but others on the list
> seem almost violently opposed to the idea.)
>

Thanks for getting personal, by the way, but I'll ignore that for now.

I simply find it illogical to allow an item that costs 0.2 essence (thanks
for the correction, btw) and 1000¥ to take the place of an item which costs
0.5 essence and 2500¥. Forgive me if that seems like the approach of a
munchkin.

Given that every function of a datajack presented in the rules (with one
exception), when used, all your sensory input is overridden by the data
going through the line. Decking. Rigging (without a VCR or whatever). BTL.
My one exception is a skillsoft. But even that skillsoft has an overriding
function. When you use a skillsoft, no matter how skilled you are otherwise,
you have no access to the equivalent natural skills.

Certainly, a case could be made for the 'partial ASIST' functionality to be
used as an excuse (house rule) for the use of a datajack for a low-grade
version of a smartgun link. In fact, I certainly could be persuaded to agree
with such a house rule. But as the rules presented in the book, the
implication for that one entry in the Smartgun Link Adaptation/Modification
for existing guns is that this functionality is technologically equivalent.
(In other words, there's nothing in the text to say that plugging a smartgun
into a datajack isn't going to be as good in regards to target modifiers
than the more expensive and intrusive smartgun link).

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:40:39 +0200

Message no. 45 According to Paul Gettle, at 21:05 on 8 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> At 05:07 PM 9/8/98 +1000, Robert wrote:
> >I did read it... but you still want to read the firearms section,
> where it
> >will tell you that using a smartgun through a datajack gives the
> effect of
> >using
> >smartgoggles, which is only -1 to the TN, instead of -2.
>
> Can you tell us where you're finding this rule, Robert? I just went
> through my BBB1's combat chapter, and I'll be damned if I find the
> word datajack anywhere in there.

It's in the text for the smartgun adapter on page 120: "Without a receptor
(datajack, smart goggles, or smartgun link), the hardware is simply dead
weight." The trouble is, SR1 doesn't say what bonus you get from plugging
a smartgun adapter (called an internal or external smartlink in SRII/SR3)
into a datajack.

In SRII, they dropped the bit about the datajack, BTW.

--
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It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 07:59:48 -0400

Message no. 46 On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Paul Gettle wrote:

->Standard Datajacks are .2 esssence. (Sure there's cheaper ones from
->Shadowtech, but you can't use the Shadowtech Datajacks w/o a piece of
->headware that can act as an Input/Output control device, either the
->I/O SPU, or an Encephalon.) That's still cheaper than what a Smartlink
->costs in essence, but it's 40% of the cost of a Smartlink, not 20%.

It says that? I always considered the Shadowtech Datajacks to be
just like the regular datajacks, only with I/O SPUs of 0 and similar. No
bonuses, no penalties, just different costs in money and essence. I'll
look again when I get home.

->And while it's true that the datajack costs less nuyen, less essence,
->and is more socially acceptable, there is a _signifigant_ hassle
->factor when using a datajack to recieve smartgun input. You're tied to
->your gun by a fiber-optic cord. There's cord-length problems, since
->too long a cord can tangle you up, and too short of a cord would
->either restrict your movement, or pop the connector from the gun at
->exactly the wrong moment. Then there's the fact that someone using a
->smartlink is linked with their weapon the instant they touch their
->gun, while someone using a datajack has to plug in first. You could
->leave the cord plugged in, but that could call attention to your
->weapon.

Fingertip datajacks are very handy for this, however.

->One of the primary functions of a Datajack is input of an
->ASIST(simsense) signal into the brain. Normally, the user's own senses
->are cut out from the brain when an ASIST signal is coming down the
->datajack, but it's not a requirement. It's possible that a smartgun
->could feed a limited ASIST signal in through the datajack, minus the
->usual RAS Cutout that locks out the senses and the voluntary muscles,
->and that way, a display link wouldn't be required.

I'm still waiting on someone to comment on my interpretation of
smartlinks. Need to set myself up to receive my own posts, I've lost it.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:03:25 -0400

Message no. 47 On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Paul Gettle wrote:

->-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
->
->At 11:47 AM 9/8/98 -0400, Fixer wrote:
->> Although......... a fingertip datajack (Shadowtechnology)
->
->You misspelled "Cybertechnology". Hope This Helps. Have A Nice Day.

Thank you for the correction. I get a bit mixed up sometimes.

->>and a
->>smartgun would still be pretty subtle.... if you can hide your hand.
->At
->>least, more subtle than a cord running from your forehead into your
->>jacket pocket.
->
->I still woudn't want to see someone using a Fingertip Datajack for
->their smartgun connection go up against someone who uses a smartlink
->induction pad for their smartgun connection in a fast-draw duel.

You're correct in a fast-draw. But I've never (and I do mean
never) had to worry about fast-drawing a weapon. Using stealth to pick
your own pocket and get your gun ready is kinda handy.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:38:39 EDT

Message no. 48 In a message dated 9/9/1998 8:59:07 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Paul Gettle wrote:
>
> ->Standard Datajacks are .2 esssence. (Sure there's cheaper ones from
> ->Shadowtech, but you can't use the Shadowtech Datajacks w/o a piece of
> ->headware that can act as an Input/Output control device, either the
> ->I/O SPU, or an Encephalon.) That's still cheaper than what a Smartlink
> ->costs in essence, but it's 40% of the cost of a Smartlink, not 20%.
>
> It says that? I always considered the Shadowtech Datajacks to be
> just like the regular datajacks, only with I/O SPUs of 0 and similar. No
> bonuses, no penalties, just different costs in money and essence. I'll
> look again when I get home.
>
Which is what they are, and in Shadowtech this is stated along with the new
Datajack variations.

-K

From:	Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:37:49 -0600

Message no. 49 At 21:34 9/8/98 -0700, Jaques Francois wrote
>If some clown wants a cable from their head to their weapon or a little
>hole in it for their finger then let them have it; it will only cause
>them grief :)

A cable running out of, say, your middle finger, which ended up in a port
somewhere near the back of the gun, would be less than 6 inches long, in
most cases. Not exactly the most noticeable thing on the planet.

Not to mention -- if you have a fingertip compartment, I'm sure there's
room for a tiny winch that the cable is wrapped around. Need more slack
room, because you're using a bigger gun? Just tug on the cable and more
comes out. And if your grip on the gun loosens, you're still attached to
it, because of the cable. There's a few more benefits, too.

Although personally I would rather have the compartment open out of the
bottom of my wrist, but I would imagine that's easy enough to do.

-Adam J
-
< TSS Productions down temporarily - New URL Soon! / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< "Raven loves me! He just bought me a new rubber ducky!" - Lodi >
< TSS : ftp://thor.flashpt.com/pub/srun/ShadowrunSupplemental/pdf >

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Smartgun Links
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:51:03 -0700

Message no. 50 > I don't think induction is blocked by an insulator. You would need
>you avoid inadvertent magnetic shielding, though- although what clothing
>would do that, I couldn't say.

None. There is no "magnetic field insulator", although another strong
magnetic field could confuse the issue.

>Mongoose

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Message no. 51 > > Due to the recent discussion about Smartgun links, I've got a question.
> > Do ya'll buy them per hand, or does one link go to both hands. Also, do
> > you allow them to go through gloves, etc.
> You buy them per hand, though you might be able to get a discount for both
> hands (IIRC, you need Smartlink II to use two guns at once).
> Strictly speaking, the induction pad in the hand needs to be in contact with
> the gun, but there's at least one example of gloves that lets you use the
> smartgun... armour. Presumably the induction pad will work through a small
> amount of fabric/armour (induction doesn't require direct contact, but still
> needs to be fairly close).

Huh. I always assumed it went to both hands.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)

Message no. 52 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:17 AM 9/9/98 -0400, Michael wrote:
>> No hand blades, or
>> microtronic devices.
>well, you gotta get the free spurs too, I mean, you chop off your
hand, you
>want a return on the investment. Sure the smart-lock pick thing is
cool, and
>maybe the mono-filament whip in the compartment, but ..... so where
would the
>munchy line be anyway? :-)

I _hope_ you're not refering to retractible spurs. Those must be
implanted where they can be withdrawn along a long bone, and the hand,
by itself, does not have any bones that qualify. Retractable Spurs are
free in cyberarms, because the meat that the blade and the
extending/retracting mechanism would have been implanted in has
already been removed. A cyberhand with retractable spurs would still
involve carving chunks of the forearm out, and shouldn't get any
essence freebies.

Similarly, the retractable Hand Blade cyberware (from Cybertechnology
and BBB3) that pops out of the side of the palm, would be too bulky
IMHO for implantation into a cyberhand with a smartgun induction pad,
as I stated above. Your Mileage May Vary.

Hand Razors, Fingertip Monowhips, Fingertip Datajacks, Fingertip
Smartpicks, Fingertip Flashlights, and anything else you can cram into
a fingertip would be still be freebies, I would think, because they're
not down in the palm, where the induction pad would be.

As for implanted microtronics devices, I think a good cutoff size
would be something aproximately the size of a PCMCIA Type 2 device
(Think 2-3 credit cards stacked atop each other in a neat pile, for
those of you who have no idea what a PCMCIA device is). Anything that
size, or smaller, should still be able to fit into the leftover space
inside the cyberhand's palm, after the induction pad is implanted.
This means small, simple things like a tracking beacon, could still
fit in, but larger items like a cellphone, or optical chip based audio
player, would be too big. (However, if the smartlink pad were left
out, I think either of those last two would _just_ barely fit)

Of course, this is all for the concealable "synthetic" cyberhands. If
you want to go for the obvious chrome look, then you can cram a lot
more in, though don't have me go glove shopping for you for the
hollidays. Either route, if you're going to be cramming more than 2 or
3 items into one cyberhand, then you'll most likely have to get the
thing custom made, which means the GM should feel free to add a mark
up on parts, and charge for the labor too.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

Message no. 53 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:27 PM 9/8/98 -0700, Pyrius wrote:
>This lack of description has lead to many a heated discussions about
the
>smartlink II. In the very vague description of the smII it's
mentioned
>that it has some kind of rangefinder for those extreme-ranged shots,
and
>somewhere else (in the hf cyberear description I think) it says that
>rangefinders use hf sound which hf hearing mods can detect.
>So if some runner has a smII, is holding a smII equiped firearm and
is
>hiding someplace, and a corp guard has a hf hearing mod... well some
>extra heat is going to be on that runner.

I've never found the Smartlink II rules to be vague. What you need to
remember, is that the Rangefinder is a totally seperate piece of
equipment, that was described in the Street Sam Catalog.
You can either mount a rangefinder as a firearm accessory, or get a
rangefinder for your cybereyes.

The Smartlink II can be linked with a Rangefinder, but it's not part
of the default package. This means if you don't have a rangefinder,
you're not getting the bonus at longer ranges.

Also, it would help to keep in mind how the rangefinder works. The
principle is the same as what can be found in a piece of gagetry
that's available today, called a sonic tapemeasure. The device sends
out an ultrasonic sonar ping, measuring the distance by the delay of
the echo. I imagine that SR's rangefinder, at _most_, sends out these
ultrasonic pings at a rate of one or two per second. It'd be the
ultrasonic equivilent of someone incessantly clicking a ballpoint pen.

Compare this to the Ultrasound Sight, which also works on ultrasonic
sonar. The Ultrasound Sight must cover a much wider angle than the
rangefinder, and must send out it's ultrasonic sonar pings fast enough
to be able to generate a near real time image from the echoes. To
cover the wider area, I imagine that several diferent ultrasonic
frequences would have to be used at the same time. These distinctive
frequencies would have to be pinged out at such a high rate, they
would almost be a set of constant tones. It's the ultrasonic
equivilent of having the whole Flute Section of an orchastra with you,
with each musician holding a different note.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

Message no. 54 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:40 AM 9/9/98 +0200, Gurth wrote:
>According to Paul Gettle, at 21:05 on 8 Sep 98, the word on the
street was...
>
>> At 05:07 PM 9/8/98 +1000, Robert wrote:
>> >I did read it... but you still want to read the firearms section,
>> where it
>> >will tell you that using a smartgun through a datajack gives the
>> effect of
>> >using
>> >smartgoggles, which is only -1 to the TN, instead of -2.
>>
>> Can you tell us where you're finding this rule, Robert? I just went
>> through my BBB1's combat chapter, and I'll be damned if I find the
>> word datajack anywhere in there.
>
>It's in the text for the smartgun adapter on page 120:

I wasn't aware that p. 120 of BBB1 was part of the combat chapter. :)
(Robert kept harping on everyone to read the Firearms Section of the
Combat Chapter, where it gives you specific TN mods for smartgunning
through datajacks. I couldn't find it.)
I suppose though, since around p. 120 is exactly where my BBB1
disintigrated, I could put p. 120 in the combat chapter. :)
That still wouldn't give me a rule with a specific TN mod though.

>In SRII, they dropped the bit about the datajack, BTW.
Yes, I just noticed, 6 years after the fact.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

Message no. 55 <SNIP>

> Hand Razors, Fingertip Monowhips, Fingertip Datajacks, Fingertip
> Smartpicks, Fingertip Flashlights, and anything else you can cram into
> a fingertip would be still be freebies, I would think, because they're
> not down in the palm, where the induction pad would be.
>
<SNIP>

Whoops!

One thing, guys - fingertip datajacks STILL cost the same amount of
essence as any other datajack with the exact cost dependant on the grade
of datajack (this rule is from Cybertech, people). I think the thing is
that the essence cost of a datajack comes, not from having a small piece
of metal in your skull, but rather from having this foreign device
linked to your brain - or something along those lines. Or at the very
least there's this teeny, tiny wire leading from that datajack in your
cyberhand/arm/whatever to your head, and that costs essence.

As an example, the smartlink - it costs 0.5 essence normally, 0.25 in a
cyberhand. Why? Because the induction pad is in the cyberhand and
therefore doesn't replace anymore meat. Hang on - wouldn't that mean
that it should cost 0 essence? Well, it would - but there's still all
the interface gadgetry which ISN'T in your cyberhand, which you need in
order for the smartlink to project its 'little red dot' on your retina.
That's why is still costs some essence.

Same reasoning with a fingertip datajack.

Doc'

Message no. 56 Paul Gettle writes:
> >It's in the text for the smartgun adapter on page 120:
>
> I wasn't aware that p. 120 of BBB1 was part of the combat chapter. :)
> (Robert kept harping on everyone to read the Firearms Section of the
> Combat Chapter, where it gives you specific TN mods for smartgunning
> through datajacks. I couldn't find it.)
> I suppose though, since around p. 120 is exactly where my BBB1
> disintigrated, I could put p. 120 in the combat chapter. :)
> That still wouldn't give me a rule with a specific TN mod though.

Paul, what I said was:

Read the text for the smartgun adaptor. Also read the combat chapter. It's
in there somewhere.

I'll look up the exact page reference for the mods tonight... the last few
nights have been a bit busy for me, what with my wife's birthday and my
mother going into hospital and all. RL gets in the way of these spirited
debates sometimes.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

Message no. 57 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:01 PM 9/10/98 +1000, Doc' wrote:
>> Hand Razors, Fingertip Monowhips, Fingertip Datajacks, Fingertip
<<Snip>>
>One thing, guys - fingertip datajacks STILL cost the same amount of
>essence as any other datajack with the exact cost dependant on the
grade
>of datajack (this rule is from Cybertech, people).

Argh! Silly me, how could I mess that one up?

BTW: Anyone think we'll see fingertip induction datajacks in Man &
Machine?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

Message no. 58 Paul gettle did spake...
>BTW: Anyone think we'll see fingertip induction datajacks in Man &
>Machine?
its already in cybertechnology?, does man and machine replace
cybertech? or just revise and update? Cause i for one would be pissed of
if they replace it.
MRhaPPYthESmilEYmaN

*Just because i'm insane doesnt mean i'm insane* -wilbur

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 59 On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Wilbur The new adept wrote:

->Paul gettle did spake...
->>BTW: Anyone think we'll see fingertip induction datajacks in Man &
->>Machine?
-> its already in cybertechnology?, does man and machine replace
->cybertech? or just revise and update? Cause i for one would be pissed of
->if they replace it.
-> MRhaPPYthESmilEYmaN

Prepare to be pissed, smiley. ]:-)
According to what I've been told, MaM will combine Street Samurai
catalog, Shadowtechnology and Cybertechnology (that's gonna be a big
book), I haven't heard but it might have some details from FoF and
CorpSec in there too. It's supposed to be the "street samurai Bioware and
Cyberware SEARS catalog of 2060" or somesuch.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

Message no. 60 >
> Prepare to be pissed, smiley. ]:-)
> According to what I've been told, MaM will combine Street
Samurai
>catalog, Shadowtechnology and Cybertechnology (that's gonna be a big
>book), I haven't heard but it might have some details from FoF and
>CorpSec in there too. It's supposed to be the "street samurai Bioware
and
>Cyberware SEARS catalog of 2060" or somesuch.
Damn them DAMN them all the way to HECK!.....well thats one book
i aint buying.
MrhAPPYthESMilEYMAn....or not.

*Just because i'm insane doesnt mean i'm insane* -wilbur

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 61 In a message dated 9/10/1998 7:50:58 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> Prepare to be pissed, smiley. ]:-)
> According to what I've been told, MaM will combine Street Samurai
> catalog, Shadowtechnology and Cybertechnology (that's gonna be a big
> book), I haven't heard but it might have some details from FoF and
> CorpSec in there too. It's supposed to be the "street samurai Bioware and
> Cyberware SEARS catalog of 2060" or somesuch.
>
MaM will focus mostly upon the cybernetic, bionetic, and genetic functions and
toys that exist within the universe that is SR, at least the last that I
heard. I have heard one rumor that it may contain some reasoning behind the
Cyber-Implant Weaponry skill, but I could be getting that part mixed up. I
*believe* it should also therefore contain the rules for graded cyberware as
well as surgery procedings and the like. Mike Mulhillvil made a remark at
Gencon this year that made *ME* believe he wanted to see if player-characters
would actually go so far as to *want* to develop Cybertech-oriented skills,
and perhaps even be willing to make the jumps from "standard street runner" to
a more "multi-purpose, yes I want a cyber-shop" type of character.

Cannon Companion is likely to contain all the information about firearms,
gunnery, heavy weapons, laser weapons, launched weapons, projectile weapons,
thrown weapons, slingshots, rubber bands and silly string guns... (the last
one for those that know me on IRC). But anyway, those rules are likely to be
involved, as well as b/r and designing your own personalized firearms, the
benefits and negatives for such beyond just the SR1&2 mechanics. Template
oriented mechanics similar to those in R2 *might* be nice if they are worked
up properly IMO.

I foresee either type of work to be very detailed, and assuming that SR3's
overall level of quality improvement from previous versions is maintained, the
two books to be really good.

=K

Message no. 62 Jaques Francois wrote:

> This lack of description has lead to many a heated discussions about the
> smartlink II. In the very vague description of the smII it's mentioned
> that it has some kind of rangefinder for those extreme-ranged shots, and
> somewhere else (in the hf cyberear description I think) it says that
> rangefinders use hf sound which hf hearing mods can detect.
> So if some runner has a smII, is holding a smII equiped firearm and is
> hiding someplace, and a corp guard has a hf hearing mod... well some
> extra heat is going to be on that runner.
>
> If I've screwed up somewhere please tell me, because it's been so long
> since I've had any of the relevant books is my possession.

Jaques,

One thing that I think everybody missed about SMII is that if you
install a rangefinder mod to a cyber eye, it allows you to arc fire
grenade launchers. I have a player who almost always takes the roll of
fire support on runs, acting as sniper. He keeps an Armtech MGL-12 next
to his sniper rifle in case the team needs smoke layed down, or if he
needs to create a diversion.
From FOF, pg 85:

"Smartlink Lv. II can calculate indirect-fire arcs, applying a -1
modifier for linked weapons such as under-barrel grenade launchers,
grenade guns, and the like. This benefit also applies to rocket
launchers and similar systems, but not missle launchers and other
systems with an inherant intelligence rating."

IMO, that means no range penalties for firing. Sure, as a GM it sucks
to always have someone on the ball like he is, but I tend to award
careful planning, and he never abuses the situation so it usually works
out fine.

DataHaven

<<<<<Buenos ding dong diddley dias.>>>>>

Message no. 63 :> I don't think induction is blocked by an insulator. You would need
:>you avoid inadvertent magnetic shielding, though- although what clothing
:>would do that, I couldn't say.
:
:None. There is no "magnetic field insulator", although another strong
:magnetic field could confuse the issue.
:
:>Mongoose
:
:--Adam

I was thinking of RF shielding, actually; there is a cloth with
metallic weave that blocks almost all RF- they use it in laptops. [You
CAN buy clothes made of it, for geek chic value only] A smartlinks
induction signal might not approach high RF, so it would probably not be
blocked- and who would make RF shielded GLOVES anyhow?

Mongoose

Message no. 64 >From: Christopher Kelly <data_haven@*********.COM>
>Date: Thursday, September 10, 1998 1:29 PM

>One thing that I think everybody missed about SMII is that if you
>install a rangefinder mod to a cyber eye, it allows you to arc fire
>grenade launchers.

<snip>

>>From FOF, pg 85:
>
>"Smartlink Lv. II can calculate indirect-fire arcs, applying a -1
>modifier for linked weapons such as under-barrel grenade launchers,
>grenade guns, and the like. ..."
>
>IMO, that means no range penalties for firing.

Not quite; unless you've got the appropriate magnification system built in,
you're still going to have the range modifiers for the weapon, but the
range-finder will mitigate some of that. Just because you have a
range-finder doesn't mean that making a shot at Long range isn't going to be
a bear.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

Message no. 65 Mongoose wrote
> :> I don't think induction is blocked by an
insulator. You would need
> :>you avoid inadvertent magnetic shielding, though- although what clothing
> :>would do that, I couldn't say.
> :
> :None. There is no "magnetic field insulator", although another strong
> :magnetic field could confuse the issue.

> I was thinking of RF shielding, actually; there is a cloth with
> metallic weave that blocks almost all RF- they use it in laptops. [You
> CAN buy clothes made of it, for geek chic value only] A smartlinks
> induction signal might not approach high RF, so it would probably not be
> blocked- and who would make RF shielded GLOVES anyhow?

I'd guess that FASA didn't think that far. In one of the modules
there is an NPC who wears metallic gloves so that she doesn;t leave
any fingerprints and can still use her smartlink.

Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612

Message no. 66 > I was thinking of RF shielding, actually; there is a cloth with
>metallic weave that blocks almost all RF- they use it in laptops. [You
>CAN buy clothes made of it, for geek chic value only] A smartlinks
>induction signal might not approach high RF, so it would probably not be
>blocked- and who would make RF shielded GLOVES anyhow?

Technically, induction means magnetic induction (the proper term for what
some denote "magnetic field") which would not be blocked by metallic weave
clothing or anything, in fact.

>Mongoose

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Message no. 67 >> I don't think induction is blocked by an insulator. You would need
>>you avoid inadvertent magnetic shielding, though- although what clothing
>>would do that, I couldn't say.
>
>None. There is no "magnetic field insulator", although another strong
>magnetic field could confuse the issue.
>
>>Mongoose
>
>--Adam
>
>acgetchell@*******.edu
>"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Actually iron pipes are used to help shield from magnetic effects. While
copper tubes are used to shield from RF effects.

Message no. 68 >At 21:34 9/8/98 -0700, Jaques Francois wrote
>>If some clown wants a cable from their head to their weapon or a little
>>hole in it for their finger then let them have it; it will only cause
>>them grief :)
>
>A cable running out of, say, your middle finger, which ended up in a port
>somewhere near the back of the gun, would be less than 6 inches long, in
>most cases. Not exactly the most noticeable thing on the planet.
>
>Not to mention -- if you have a fingertip compartment, I'm sure there's
>room for a tiny winch that the cable is wrapped around. Need more slack
>room, because you're using a bigger gun? Just tug on the cable and more
>comes out. And if your grip on the gun loosens, you're still attached to
>it, because of the cable. There's a few more benefits, too.
>
>Although personally I would rather have the compartment open out of the
>bottom of my wrist, but I would imagine that's easy enough to do.
>
>-Adam J

Actually there is a way to avoid the problem with a cable. Run the cable
out of your jack under your clothing to an non cyberware induction pad
mounted in a glove for instance. Now you don't have any problems dragging
cables arround. You could also make a custom glove where your datajack in
the finger plugs into a jack at the end of a finger in the glove.

One of the things I'm trying to due in our game is remind people that many
cyber equipment can be used as noncyber devices.

-Lorden

Message no. 69 >>None. There is no "magnetic field insulator", although another strong
>>magnetic field could confuse the issue.
>
>Actually iron pipes are used to help shield from magnetic effects. While
>copper tubes are used to shield from RF effects.

Go back and read basic Electricity and Magnetism. You will note that iron
is ferromagnetic, meaning that it has an intrinsic magnetism that is much
stronger than normal diamagnetic/paramagnetic materials.

There is no *material* that shields magnetic fields. Magnetic Induction
flux lines pass freely through the earth and atmosphere. A magnetic
material producing a magnetic field will offer interference.
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Message no. 70 Adam Getchell wrote:

>Go back and read basic Electricity and Magnetism. You will note that iron
>is ferromagnetic, meaning that it has an intrinsic magnetism that is much
>stronger than normal diamagnetic/paramagnetic materials.
>
>There is no *material* that shields magnetic fields. Magnetic Induction
>flux lines pass freely through the earth and atmosphere. A magnetic
>material producing a magnetic field will offer interference.

I believe you're in the wrong there. Iron is capable of being a magnet *IF*
all the nodes (? forget the exact term) are aligned in the same direction.
However, non-magnetic iron is an effective magnetic insulator if it
surrounds whatever it is that you want shielded. In 2D a ring of iron has
no magnetic field inside the ring, whether there is one outside the ring or
not. If multiple magnetic fields are in operation in 3D then a sphere of
iron is required, but you get the picture. Test it with the good old iron
filing test with magnets etc with a sheet of paper to show how the filings
line up with the field lines.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"It's called tourist season, so why can't we shoot them?"
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Message no. 71 >I believe you're in the wrong there. Iron is capable of being a magnet *IF*
>all the nodes (? forget the exact term) are aligned in the same direction.
>However, non-magnetic iron is an effective magnetic insulator if it

Go look up the definition of ferromagnetic. Now cross reference that with
magnetic properties and magnetic fields.

That should clear up your confusion.

>Slipspeed

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Message no. 72 :> I was thinking of RF shielding, actually; there is a cloth with
:>metallic weave that blocks almost all RF- they use it in laptops. [You
:>CAN buy clothes made of it, for geek chic value only] A smartlinks
:>induction signal might not approach high RF, so it would probably not be
:>blocked- and who would make RF shielded GLOVES anyhow?
:
:Technically, induction means magnetic induction (the proper term for what
:some denote "magnetic field") which would not be blocked by metallic
weave
:clothing or anything, in fact.
:
:>Mongoose
:
:--Adam

I have a little knowledge, so I may be making a dangerous assumption,
but I thought a signal transmitted by magnetic induction WAS a radio
signal. Alternating magnetic fields create alternating electric fields
create....

Mongoose

Message no. 73 In a message dated 9/11/1998 11:29:06 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:

>
> There is no *material* that shields magnetic fields. Magnetic Induction
> flux lines pass freely through the earth and atmosphere. A magnetic
> material producing a magnetic field will offer interference.
> --Adam

Perhaps Adam, what you refer to as interference is what others are referring
to as "shielding". Thus, making one field appear or function more like the
fields that are more familiar or commonly found throughout the world?

-K

Message no. 74 >Perhaps Adam, what you refer to as interference is what others are referring
>to as "shielding". Thus, making one field appear or function more like the
>fields that are more familiar or commonly found throughout the world?

Perhaps that is true. The two are very different.

You can completely shield electric fields by enclosing it in a conductor.
No electric fields will pass out of that conductor.

You can also generate electrical fields to interfere (destructively or
constructively) ... that is a separate phenomena.

As I said, you cannot *shield* magnetic flux lines. You can interfere with
them. A ferromagnetic substance (iron, nickel, cobalt) naturally produces
magnetic induction when subjected to same. These eddy fields often have
interference properties, as experiments with swinging a pendulum between
two magnets will show.

>-K

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Message no. 75 westln@***.EDU wrote:
>
> >At 21:34 9/8/98 -0700, Jaques Francois wrote
> >>If some clown wants a cable from their head to their weapon or a little
> >>hole in it for their finger then let them have it; it will only cause
> >>them grief :)
>
>A cable running out of, say, your middle finger, which ended up in a port
>somewhere near the back of the gun, would be less than 6 inches long, in
>most cases. Not exactly the most noticeable thing on the planet.
>
>Not to mention -- if you have a fingertip compartment, I'm sure there's
>room for a tiny winch that the cable is wrapped around. Need more slack
>room, because you're using a bigger gun? Just tug on the cable and more
>comes out. And if your grip on the gun loosens, you're still attached to
>it, because of the cable. There's a few more benefits, too.
>
>Although personally I would rather have the compartment open out of the
>bottom of my wrist, but I would imagine that's easy enough to do.

I think maybe a small openable port in the area between your thumb and index finger would
be good for a smartgun link... the port of the gun could be in the grip where that part of
your had would meet it... but then again, why do that when induction exists? :)

Nocturnal

Message no. 76 Slipspeed wrote:
>In 2D a ring of iron has no magnetic field inside the ring, whether there
is one outside the ring or
>not. If multiple magnetic fields are in operation in 3D then a sphere of
>iron is required, but you get the picture. Test it with the good old iron
>filing test with magnets etc with a sheet of paper to show how the filings
>line up with the field lines.

I believe you have it backwards: there will be no E-M field INSIDE a ring
from a source OUTSIDE, but it is not reversable. A faraday cage protects
everything inside from outside, but not the other way around. Sound flakey
but its true; the shielding isn't from the material, its from the fact that
the field lines from induced currents exactly balance out the external
field lines.

Double-Domed Mike

Message no. 77 Hello,just a quick question thats been bugging me for ages.
It says in the main rulebook that you can't get the bonuses from a smartlink if you use a
scope at the same time,is this true for other magnification systems like cybereyes or is
it just some quirk in the smartlink system?

Darren,kobold master chef!

=any toddlers about i want to practice my visscitude

_____________________________________________________________
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Community</a></center>
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Message no. 78 "Darren Gilliver" <Darius@**********.every1.net> wrote:
> Hello,just a quick question thats been bugging me for ages.
> It says in the main rulebook that you can't get the bonuses from a
> smartlink if you use a scope at the same time,is this true for
> other magnification systems like cybereyes or is it just some quirk
> in the smartlink system?

My understanding is that it's pretty much a quirk of the way the
smartlink works. The idea is that the smartlink reticle swims across
your vision (either by way of goggles or by way of smartlink ware),
indicating wherever you've got the gun pointed within your field of
view. It's sort of like a super-effective laser sight. When you use a
scope, you stick your
eye into the eyepiece and look through it to a point downrange which
is (if the scope is properly calibrated) the point that gun is aimed
at.

As a result, your smartlink isn't real useful, because it already
points exactly where you're pointing. What FASA really wants to point
out, then, is that you don't get both sets of bonuses (bonii?).

Your GM may give you an additional bonus for using a scope, as opposed
to no imaging system, but you could rationalise similar things for
simply aiming, which is probably where it would come out. Smartlinks
and laser sights allow you to aim more easily and quickly.

--
John Pederson
pedersje@**.rose-hulman.edu
ICQ UIN 3190186

Message no. 79 > John Pederson pedersje@**.rose-hulman.edu Wrote:

> My understanding is that it's pretty much a quirk of the way the
> smartlink works. The idea is that the smartlink reticle swims across
> your vision (either by way of goggles or by way of smartlink ware),
> indicating wherever you've got the gun pointed within your field of
> view. It's sort of like a super-effective laser sight. When you use a
> scope, you stick your
> eye into the eyepiece and look through it to a point downrange which
> is (if the scope is properly calibrated) the point that gun is aimed
> at.
>
> As a result, your smartlink isn't real useful, because it already
> points exactly where you're pointing. What FASA really wants to point
> out, then, is that you don't get both sets of bonuses (bonii?).
>
> Your GM may give you an additional bonus for using a scope, as opposed
> to no imaging system, but you could rationalise similar things for
> simply aiming, which is probably where it would come out. Smartlinks
> and laser sights allow you to aim more easily and quickly.

IF it is an eye mounted imaging system I believe it is like a zoom function,
the bonuses should be compatibel. Check out my post titled smartlinks

Message no. 80 From: "Stuart Biggs" <jthm_spoon@*********.net.au> wrote:
> IF it is an eye mounted imaging system I believe it is like a zoom
function,
> the bonuses should be compatibel. Check out my post titled
smartlinks

Hmmm... <reviews previous message> Guess I didn't specifically address
that. I agree, actually. The scope doesn't get a smartlink bonus
because it already accomplishes the same thing, but an imaging system
which wasn't scope based (primarily goggles or cyber implants, I'd
guess) would be effectively compatible with a smartlink. Of course,
that's only if the target is still within your now-zoomed field of
vision. Otherwise, you're effectively shooting blind.

--
John Pederson
pedersje@**.rose-hulman.edu
ICQ UIN 3190186

Message no. 81 According to Darren Gilliver, on Sun, 11 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

Darren, could you set your mailer to word-wrap at about 72 to 76
characters? Each of your paragraphs is a single line in my mailer, so it's
a bit hard to read your posts.

> It says in the main rulebook that you can't get the bonuses from a
> smartlink if you use a scope at the same time,is this true for other
> magnification systems like cybereyes or is it just some quirk in the
> smartlink system?

The rationalization is that a smartlink projects a crosshair onto the
target, but if you're looking through a scope at the same time, the
smartlink won't know that, so it'll project the crosshairs onto the back of
the scope, or in some place the shot won't land because the scope is
modifying your point of aim.

A scope in a cybereye (that is, vision magnification) will work together
with a smartlink (IMHO) because that can be wired into the smartlink to let
it compensate for magnification.

If you don't have an internal smartlink but do want the above combination,
I would suggest taking a look at the smartscope in Running Gear
(http://plastic.dumpshock.com/shadowrun, or ask Phil :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 82 >
>Darren, could you set your mailer to word-wrap at about 72 to 76
>characters? Each of your paragraphs is a single line in my mailer, so it's
>a bit hard to read your posts.
I'll see what i can do.

>If you don't have an internal smartlink but do want the above combination,
>I would suggest taking a look at the smartscope in Running Gear
Hmmmm,smartscope I'll take a look at that.

Darren,kobold master chef.

=any toddlers about i want to practice my visscitude

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