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From:	SLGMJ@***.BITNET
Subject:	Smartguns...
Date:	Fri, 15 Jan 93 01:26:48 CET

Message no. 1 I agree with Mongoose... A smartgun adapted gun almost HAS to
have some sort of imaging system, and hence a camera of some sort. If
a smartgun only projected a DOT onto the target, it would be no better
than a fraggin laser sight, 'cept it would cost more and you would lose
essence for it. Having some form of camera/imaging device would be the
only reason you would need wires running into your nervous system/up to
your goggles. That's also the only way you could really avoid shooting
your friends.

As for shooting around corners etc... The house rule we've always
used is a +2 TN modifier, just like the one mages get while astrally
perceiving and getting two sets of sensory input at once. This gives Sams
a big advantage. While the TN modifier brings down accuracy, it means you
can poke a gun around a corner to see if the coast is clear, and the only
hits you could possibly take are to the hand or the gun. (Unless of course
the guy down the hall has a Panther Cannon and decides to shoot straight
THROUGH the wall... ;) )

Well, that's my 0.02Y worth...

- Soren Blackshadow (Cybered Shaman)

slgmj@**.usu.edu

From:	David Loewenstern <loewenst@******.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns...
Date:	Thu, 14 Jan 93 21:08:16 EST

Message no. 2 >>>>>[

That's not how I imagined the smartgun at all. The book leads me to
believe that it works by a proprioceptive method: i.e., the smartgun
sensor figures out where the gun is (relative to your body) and the
direction the gun is pointing, and derives the angles between that
direction and the direction you are looking, and puts a corresponding
"+" on your goggle screen. There is no camera, but there may be an
internal gyroscope or two. I believe modern (20th century) autopilots
use a similar method for figuring out angle of ascent.

]<<<<< Quincunx <loewenst@****.rutgers.edu> (Thu Jan 14 21:08:05 EST
1993)

From:	Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Thu, 14 Jan 93 23:15:45 -0500

Message no. 3 It's clear that first edition smartguns are a lot more than dots
kept on the target; see the bit about walking fire past friends and
not firing those bullets. My belief is that it's a 'deep' link between
the user and the gun; the gun shoots (at) whoever the user wants it to,
and not at other people, and the two cooperate to get the gun pointed
right to do this.

- cks

From:	"David M. Girardot" <GIRARDOT@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Smartguns
Date:	Wed, 27 Jan 93 20:53:21 CET

Message no. 4 I disagree with what was last posted. A smartgun uses some type of imaging
of course, but I would say its more like a laser than a camera. Perhaps
the better systems use a redundant system of UV, Infra-red, and laser to
cover more of the vagaries of combat conditions. The smartgun system
returns information about the guns elevation, distance to target, targetting
angles, and the like -- as well as providing a sort of rudimentary expert
system that would allow better targetting in conditions where the subject
is moving very fast, etc. (As in always). :) In other words, the smartgun
is much more than a simple laser sight.

--David
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Girardot@*********.edu Girardot@********.bitnet
dmgirard@***.cs.du.edu
-*-
Prognosticator * Gamer * Scribbler * Reader * Consultant * Sorta Apple Rep

From:	Legion out to lunch <legion@**************.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:	Smartguns
Date:	Sun, 4 Jul 1993 12:01:04 MDT

Message no. 5 Gotta get in on this...

How I see a Smartlinked weapon working is a little more techy/advanced
than what has popped up on here in the last few days.

I treat it like an entire fire control system. This includes manipulating
the weapon directly via the link and the firer's actions being influenced
by feedback from the smartlink. In english? Ok, first part; the person
smartlinked to the weapon can swith modes of fire, if the weapon is
selective fire, eject magazines and the like. I still make the
characters pull the trigger, though. They're not getting off that easy...

Second: actions being influenced by the link; this means that all the
relevant data collected and configured by the link influences where
the character is going to put the crosshairs (dot, reticle, whatever)
in relation to the target to be able to hit it. Data collected by the
link includes; any wind direction and velocity, range to the target for
super-elevation, and tracking and lead inducement affected by both
the target's movement and the character's own movement.

Everybody get all that? Sounds like alot, doesn't it. Read on.

Super-elevation is a ballistics term (mainly used on tank fire
control systems and on battleships) that reflects how much the
weapon's barrel is to be elevated from zero degrees horizontal which
depends on range to the target and weight of the round. To me this
is the base function of a smartlink, not just painting the target
with a little red dot that only you can see.

Lead is kind of self explanatory, it's how much in front of the target
you are going to aim if he is moving left or right. A little like
super-elevation only sideways. This function does not do alot for
short ranges with a Colt Manhunter but it helps _alot_ with a sniper
rifle from 2000 meters away.

None of these things add any extra successes or dice to an attack,
you only get the bonus for having the smartlink. Everything above
is only my interpretation of how a smartgun link works.

If any of this seems incoherent, let it be known that I, along with
about 900 Germans, got extremely drunk and LOUD at the Sommer Fest
here in Darmstadt last night. I defy anyone to find a place in the
states where everyone can get up on benches and tables and dance and
sing all night long to excellent party songs like Louie Louie and
the footbal song.

Mike
_________________________________
Mike Loseke | "Death awaits you all, with
legion@**************.army.mil | nasty, big, pointy teeth!"
Minister of Death - SWO |
_________________________________| - Tim the Enchanter

From:	Hobbes Patrol Headquarters <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	RE : Smartguns
Date:	Tue, 6 Jul 1993 19:45:34 -0500

Message no. 6 >How I see a Smartlinked weapon working is a little more techy/advanced
>than what has popped up on here in the last few days.

>I treat it like an entire fire control system. This includes manipulating
>the weapon directly via the link and the firer's actions being influenced
>by feedback from the smartlink. In english? Ok, first part; the person
>smartlinked to the weapon can swith modes of fire, if the weapon is
>selective fire, eject magazines and the like. I still make the
>characters pull the trigger, though. They're not getting off that easy...

Some things never change. I agree, mainly because I would think a link
makes the gun a cybernetic extention of the users arm or hand.

>Second: actions being influenced by the link; this means that all the
>relevant data collected and configured by the link influences where
>the character is going to put the crosshairs (dot, reticle, whatever)
>in relation to the target to be able to hit it. Data collected by the
>link includes; any wind direction and velocity, range to the target for
>super-elevation, and tracking and lead inducement affected by both
>the target's movement and the character's own movement.

Again, I'm looking at this from the standpoint of an 'extention'. It makes
the gun a part of the user (or is that backwards?) It does give a sight
(dot, crosshairs, whatever) so I can see where the gun is pointing, but
wind direction??? (I 'spose for the **BIG** guns, sure...)

>Super-elevation is a ballistics term (mainly used on tank fire
>control systems and on battleships) that reflects how much the
>weapon's barrel is to be elevated from zero degrees horizontal which
>depends on range to the target and weight of the round. To me this
>is the base function of a smartlink, not just painting the target
>with a little red dot that only you can see.
>Lead is kind of self explanatory, it's how much in front of the target
>you are going to aim if he is moving left or right. A little like
>super-elevation only sideways. This function does not do alot for
>short ranges with a Colt Manhunter but it helps _alot_ with a sniper
>rifle from 2000 meters away.

Which brings me to another question (which will get thwapped, I know it...)
Can I smart-link a bow? With the above as a basis of how it's feasable?
If so/not, why/why not?

(Also, I'm just wondering if Mike ever played Paintball before! The above
is stuff we always do in paintball...)

>None of these things add any extra successes or dice to an attack,
>you only get the bonus for having the smartlink. Everything above
>is only my interpretation of how a smartgun link works.

>If any of this seems incoherent, let it be known that I, along with
>about 900 Germans, got extremely drunk and LOUD at the Sommer Fest
>here in Darmstadt last night. I defy anyone to find a place in the
>states where everyone can get up on benches and tables and dance and
>sing all night long to excellent party songs like Louie Louie and
>the footbal song.

>Mike

Umm, Springfest. Winona Minnesota. Live bands, 500 people in the mud, and
beer. Lots of beer. And rain. TONS OF RAIN!

(I digress)

-Tyger

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
!Nikki was a loser. A street kid, left to fend for himself at a young age.
!He was independent, and unpredictable, but harmless. Except now !
!he had a philosophy, and that made him dangerous. !
! -From "Operation LIVEcrime" !
! Queensryche
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

From:	"J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject:	smartguns
Date:	Thu, 9 Jun 1994 16:31:42 +0100

Message no. 7 How do smartguns work?
<in your opinion>

I've heard everthing from crosshairs in your vision to the
intuitive fire control system...
The SR and CP2020 rulebooks don't say much onthis...

My final opinion was the gun is part of your nervous system, it
becomes a part of you...You can feel its every motion, sensors
feeding every round and action to you.You know its length, its
weight as well as you know your own hand. Aiming is instinctive,
your natural instincts modified by the guns programming.
With the cheaper guns the feel is lumpy, unresponsive and crude,
like your hand was in a boxing glove...
With the best customised 'guns the gun is alive in your hand,
part of you, breathing with you, warm in your grasp like an
animal .
<Watch VIDEODROME for what this looks/feels like if the gunner
is on hallucinogens>
You can operate the gun by thought, changing fire in mid burst,
ejecting the empty clip by just releasing a catch...

The opportunities this creates are many...
TRIGGERLESS...
gun fires from mental/nervous command only
MULTIPLE AMMO FEED
several clips/mags that load different rounds, can change
between them at will or mix them in a burst
SMARTLOCK
gun only fires when interfaced with the smartlocked 'link

CHOPPER
lick & flax Kite Robbing
Martian lumpy cairn Tin Rose
sinful buckle Scary privates
Barmy arson Hens naked
Nice planking Androgeny parrots
Keafen shag Android rimming
PA trickcover fork Kettles cease
Brain Earring Crag ferment

From:	bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject:	Smart Guns
Date:	Wed, 25 Sep 1996 04:22:33 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 8 So I'm reading Newsday this month, and low and behold, there's a great
article on new smartgun technology.

The article mentioned a new device being manufactured in America today that
allows a weapon to be fired only by it's registered user.

"Hmmm?" sez I. "Sounds a lot like that IBS safety system in CorpSec?"

Turns out that's exactly what they're propsing. Apparently the major gun
manufactureres are working this system out for sale by next year.

I don't know if that's scary or reassuring. :-)

Anyway, this set me to thinking.
What benefits do other smartgun systems offer?
It's been a long time since I really looked at the smartgun rules, and I'm
sure there's plenty I missed.
So please help.
Aside from a -2 TN# for ranged combat, what other benefits do smartguns offer.

Currently I'm allowing such actions as. . .

1. Will not fire at someone the recognition circuits have registered as a
"Friendly."
2. Allows user to "see" through the weapons sight with a data display,
letting them do things like shoot around corners, and what have you.
3. Can be equipped with a decker/rigger output, allowing a virtual presence
to "deck" the gun, letting a non-combat decker/rigger see where the gun's
user is pointing - useful for drone targeting, or even blindfire.

Anything else I'm forgetting, or other special rules you use?

FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"Bad monkey! Somone should spank that monkey!"

From:	GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Wed, 25 Sep 1996 03:21:16 -0700

Message no. 9 Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> I don't know if that's scary or reassuring. :-)
>

Just wait till the magic returns and folks start to goblinize....
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer

From:	chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Wed, 25 Sep 1996 05:46:40 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 10 >Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>> I don't know if that's scary or reassuring. :-)
>>
>
>Just wait till the magic returns and folks start to goblinize....
>Trust me, Granite. I'm waiting...:) I think I';ll make a good Ork...:)

#######################################################
# -Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich #
# chaos@*****.com #
# Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours? #
#######################################################

"You do more damage out of simple irritation than most
men can do in a towering rage."
-David Eddings, "Demon Lord of Karanda

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:29:04 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 11 On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> So I'm reading Newsday this month, and low and behold, there's a great
> article on new smartgun technology.

I saw something like this quite awhile ago now.

> What benefits do other smartgun systems offer?
> It's been a long time since I really looked at the smartgun rules, and I'm
> sure there's plenty I missed.
> So please help.
> Aside from a -2 TN# for ranged combat, what other benefits do smartguns offer.
You can eject a clip with a free action.
You can change fire modes with a free action.
You get a readout on current ammo levels.

> Currently I'm allowing such actions as. . .
>
> 1. Will not fire at someone the recognition circuits have registered as a
> "Friendly."
I personally say something slightly different in that the firer mentally
notes those people he won't shoot at that action and the smart gun
prevents a bullet being fired. But if the firer doesn't recognise a target
as friendly teh gun will fire. The thing in teh Corp Sec book (I think,
otherwise it was Ka.Ge) which allowed personnel to wear electronic tags
which prevent guns unloading at that target are more of what you are
suggesting.

> 2. Allows user to "see" through the weapons sight with a data display,
> letting them do things like shoot around corners, and what have you.
I wouldn't allow this personally but its your game. In SRI smartguns
worked by having a flashing cross hairs on the centre of the eye, when teh
gun was pointing in the same direction teh cross hairs bacame solid and
teh character knew teh gun was pointing where he was looking.

In SRII smartguns work by having a dot on teh users eye which shows where
teh gun is currently pointing, this does allow targeting out of peripheral
vision (which is good) but teh target still has to be within teh users
sight.

> 3. Can be equipped with a decker/rigger output, allowing a virtual presence
> to "deck" the gun, letting a non-combat decker/rigger see where the gun's
> user is pointing - useful for drone targeting, or even blindfire.
Hmmm, interesting....

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Life is a choice, Death....an obligation."-Me
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun

From:	Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:32:24 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 12 On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> Aside from a -2 TN# for ranged combat, what other benefits do smartguns offer.
>
> Currently I'm allowing such actions as. . .
>
> 1. Will not fire at someone the recognition circuits have registered as a
> "Friendly."

This one's ambiguous to a certain extent. I force people using
smartgunlinks to designate "hostiles." in their field of view (it's
*usually* somewhat obvious. If someone isn't designated as a "hostile,
the gun won't fire at them.
Alternatively, I make the shooter designate "friendlies," at
which point it won't shoot at friendlies, but will shoot at anybody
else.
If the shooter doesn't get a good look at his or her target, the
gun decides that the target is neutral, and either hoses it or not
depending on the "hostile" or "friendly" designation system. So
sometimes you can paste your teammates, and sometimes you can't shoot
your enemies, depending on your gun's setting. Most people just play it
safe and go with the "kill everybody" option.

> 2. Allows user to "see" through the weapons sight with a data display,
> letting them do things like shoot around corners, and what have you.

This is not one that I typically allow just because of the
mechanics of how I run smartguns, but it's probably a difference in
campaigns.

> 3. Can be equipped with a decker/rigger output, allowing a virtual presence
> to "deck" the gun, letting a non-combat decker/rigger see where the gun's
> user is pointing - useful for drone targeting, or even blindfire.

Conceivable, although I can imagine that this would require an
extra "add-on" unit in addition to the smartgun hardware on the gun
itself.

> Anything else I'm forgetting, or other special rules you use?

4. The shooter can eject a clip as a free action.

5. The shooter can change firing modes or adjust a cyberchoke as a free
action. Tremendously useful ability.

One thing to remember (and this applies specificaly to your
decking/rigging suggestion) is that a tremendous amount of the
calculational power of the smartgun lies not in the gun itself but in the
cyberware of the shooter. By itself, the smartgun is inert, no
different from any other firearm (just a tad heavier). The actual brains
of the system lie in the cyberware/smartgoggles that are in/on the user's
head. Decking or rigging into the gun itself probably wouldn't be too
useful because you don't have access to all the computational data of the
ware or goggle unit. If you assume that the 'ware or goggles pass this
data back down the line to the gun, then you're set, but why would they?

About a year ago, there was a thread concerning smartguns, how
they work, and what they can do. Some good ideas were tossed around.
Check the logs if you want more info on this topic.

Marc

From:	Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:57:38 -0700

Message no. 13 Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
> So I'm reading Newsday this month, and low and behold, there's a great
> article on new smartgun technology.
>
> The article mentioned a new device being manufactured in America today that
> allows a weapon to be fired only by it's registered user.
>
> "Hmmm?" sez I. "Sounds a lot like that IBS safety system in
CorpSec?"
>
> Turns out that's exactly what they're propsing. Apparently the major gun
> manufactureres are working this system out for sale by next year.
>
> I don't know if that's scary or reassuring. :-)
>
> Anyway, this set me to thinking.
> What benefits do other smartgun systems offer?
> It's been a long time since I really looked at the smartgun rules, and I'm
> sure there's plenty I missed.
> So please help.
> Aside from a -2 TN# for ranged combat, what other benefits do smartguns offer.
>
> Currently I'm allowing such actions as. . .
>
> 1. Will not fire at someone the recognition circuits have registered as a
> "Friendly."
> 2. Allows user to "see" through the weapons sight with a data display,
> letting them do things like shoot around corners, and what have you.
> 3. Can be equipped with a decker/rigger output, allowing a virtual presence
> to "deck" the gun, letting a non-combat decker/rigger see where the gun's
> user is pointing - useful for drone targeting, or even blindfire.
>
> Anything else I'm forgetting, or other special rules you use?

I hadn't put in the "Gun point of view rule" I 'd always been under th
impression that when connected to the gun the character was giving a
targetting dot or cross-hair in there normal field of vision that
somehow signified when the gun was aimed at the same target.

Sticking your arm and gun around a corner, out of your line of sight
would count as blindfire in my opinion.

Don't know if I like the decking of the smartgun for gun POV either.

I do play by the "won't fire on friendlies" rule.

Also, because of the "friendlies" feature, we don't have smartguns
wasting the required bullet per meter when walking autofire.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************

From:	Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Thu, 26 Sep 1996 01:57:44 +0100

Message no. 14 In article <199609250922.EAA05170@***.ncweb.com>, "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.com> writes
>So I'm reading Newsday this month, and low and behold, there's a great
>article on new smartgun technology.
>
>The article mentioned a new device being manufactured in America today that
>allows a weapon to be fired only by it's registered user.
>
>"Hmmm?" sez I. "Sounds a lot like that IBS safety system in
CorpSec?"
>
>Turns out that's exactly what they're propsing. Apparently the major gun
>manufactureres are working this system out for sale by next year.
>
>I don't know if that's scary or reassuring. :-)
>
Yes, fascinating stuff, USA Today had a large article on it, and other
toys, some of which I've inserted into my game.

>Anyway, this set me to thinking.
>What benefits do other smartgun systems offer?
>It's been a long time since I really looked at the smartgun rules, and I'm
>sure there's plenty I missed.
>So please help.
>Aside from a -2 TN# for ranged combat, what other benefits do smartguns offer.
>
>Currently I'm allowing such actions as. . .
>
>1. Will not fire at someone the recognition circuits have registered as a
>"Friendly."
I believe this is a standard of Smartgun technology anyway (ICBWT). But
yes this is something I use.

>2. Allows user to "see" through the weapons sight with a data display,
>letting them do things like shoot around corners, and what have you.
I actaully allow the suggested ruling, which is a data display similar
to a HUD projected on a cyberoptic, if no cyberoptic is present, then
and audible tone is heard in a cyberear, if this doesn't exist, then
just an audible tone, maybe with a target lock led on the back of the
weapon under the sights.

As for shooting round corners, nope, not at all, maybe with a smart
bullet (assuming they can afford or find one), maybe for bounced
grenades, but not otherwise, if they can't see round the corner, they
can't shoot round it - except blindly - (ala Mel Gibson Lethal Weapon)

>3. Can be equipped with a decker/rigger output, allowing a virtual presence
>to "deck" the gun, letting a non-combat decker/rigger see where the gun's
>user is pointing - useful for drone targeting, or even blindfire.
>
Don't use this facility at all, not without major modification to the
weapon's systems, only the user can "see" where the weapon is facing,
unless it is
a] a drone (but that is a rigger facility anyway)
b] a sentry unit.

>Anything else I'm forgetting, or other special rules you use?
Airburst facility for grenade launchers, with Smartlink II, I allow
rangefinder as an integral part of the system. But not with Smartlink
I.

Target search. In certain situations, I will allow the players to use
the Smartgun II technology to search for a target, say in a warehouse or
similar. If they are on a busy street then the system suffers overload,
and they can't zero the desired target due to multiple target presence,
but in an area where ther are only hostiles I allow it, mainly, because
any target picked up is likely to be an enemy, it gives them a little
edge in situations where thermal or low light don't work - a little like
ultrasound, but different. They are of course aware, that the
opposition may have this facility as well, so it discourages the stand
up and blast firefight. In the event of gunplay, the PCs invariably
dive for the nearest cover and work their way towards the enemy,
attempting to flank him/her/them.

Eject and load a clip with a free action.
Switch fire modes with a free action (i.e SA to FA or BF and back)
Readout on current ammo levels and ammo type.

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations which we
can perform without thinking about them.

From:	Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:37:18 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 15 Smartguns also are helpful when you are spreading fire across a distance
occupied by friendlies. I remember in 1st ed. that you had to roll to
avoid hitting them if you didn't have a smartgun, but if you did have
one, you automatically missed them. Kinda like the Stutter Chip in
Chromebook 2 for Cyberpunk...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Michael Orion Jackson~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TAMS Class of 1996/UT Class of 199?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~2112 Guadalupe, Rm. 502; Austin, Tx 78705 (The Goodall-Wooten)~~~~~~~
"Goddamn creatures of the night, they never learn." ~Gideon, _The Crow_

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:43:55 +0100

Message no. 16 Michael Orion Jackson said on 13:37/26 Sep 96...

> Smartguns also are helpful when you are spreading fire across a distance
> occupied by friendlies. I remember in 1st ed. that you had to roll to
> avoid hitting them if you didn't have a smartgun, but if you did have
> one, you automatically missed them.

No roll to avoid hitting them, BTB anyway. And the smartgun rule is still
in place in SRII. You just fire into a crowd and miss all the potential
targets you want to miss -- anyone remember the scene in Top Secret, where
the East Germans attack the French Resistance, and Chocolate Mousse opens
fire? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I have another stupid question.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:54:04 -0600 (MDT)

Message no. 17 Gurth wrote:
|
|Michael Orion Jackson said on 13:37/26 Sep 96...
|
|> Smartguns also are helpful when you are spreading fire across a distance
|> occupied by friendlies. I remember in 1st ed. that you had to roll to
|> avoid hitting them if you didn't have a smartgun, but if you did have
|> one, you automatically missed them.
|
|No roll to avoid hitting them, BTB anyway. And the smartgun rule is still
|in place in SRII. You just fire into a crowd and miss all the potential
|targets you want to miss -- anyone remember the scene in Top Secret, where
|the East Germans attack the French Resistance, and Chocolate Mousse opens
|fire? :)

I gotta rent that movie again soon, it's been way tooo long
since the last time I saw it. Maybe I'll make a run out of
it :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Sat, 28 Sep 1996 13:41:59 +0100

Message no. 18 David Buehrer said on 7:54/27 Sep 96...

> |targets you want to miss -- anyone remember the scene in Top Secret, where
> |the East Germans attack the French Resistance, and Chocolate Mousse opens
> |fire? :)
>
> I gotta rent that movie again soon, it's been way tooo long
> since the last time I saw it. Maybe I'll make a run out of
> it :)

What, with train stations driving away, Pac Man, London taxis with
well-known actors, and all that? Should be an interesting adventure, if
you ask me :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's going to hurt if you fail to miss the ground.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Joker <s1057948@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:16:30 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 19 > > Smartguns also are helpful when you are spreading fire across a distance
> > occupied by friendlies. I remember in 1st ed. that you had to roll to
> > avoid hitting them if you didn't have a smartgun, but if you did have
> > one, you automatically missed them.
>
> No roll to avoid hitting them, BTB anyway. And the smartgun rule is still
> in place in SRII. You just fire into a crowd and miss all the potential
> targets you want to miss -- anyone remember the scene in Top Secret, where
> the East Germans attack the French Resistance, and Chocolate Mousse opens
> fire? :)
>

Sure you can miss all the potential targets.... but can you stop the
bullet blowing though your target and toasting someone standing behind
him/her? Especially when using a (v. common) high powered gun?

We used to assign an arbitrary 3 to 5 barrier rating to an unarmored
civilian, mainly for use in hostage situations where you want to take
someone down when he's hiding behind an innocent. (Counter terrorists
currently use that as one of their tactical options)

...It also used to get used during all those times when we got involved
in automatic weapons fights in malls (Ahhhh they were the days)

Bleach

From:	chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:16:56 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 20 >Sure you can miss all the potential targets.... but can you stop the
>bullet blowing though your target and toasting someone standing behind
>him/her? Especially when using a (v. common) high powered gun?
>
This is a good point... Especially the Panthers that munchkins (and Bull,
when in Chicago or on Isle Nubla, or facing a cybered wyvern, or...you get
the point:)> love to use so often...:)

>We used to assign an arbitrary 3 to 5 barrier rating to an unarmored
>civilian, mainly for use in hostage situations where you want to take
>someone down when he's hiding behind an innocent. (Counter terrorists
>currently use that as one of their tactical options)
>
Shoot the hostage.

>...It also used to get used during all those times when we got involved
>in automatic weapons fights in malls (Ahhhh they were the days)
>
Malls? What are those? Oh yeah! We fought in one once, but it was some
hideous blob thing that we couldn't hurt... That's right:)

****************************************************************************
-Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich
chaos@*****.com
Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
****************************************************************************

"I say we go back to the ship, and nuke the
site from Orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
-Ripley, "Aliens"

From:	bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:52:34 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 21 >Shoot the hostage.

Always a good tactic . . . for the NPC's! :-)

>>...It also used to get used during all those times when we got involved
>>in automatic weapons fights in malls (Ahhhh they were the days)
>>
>Malls? What are those? Oh yeah! We fought in one once, but it was some
>hideous blob thing that we couldn't hurt... That's right:)

Didn't I tell you it was a protean?
I thought you figured that one out?

FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"C'mon, let's give 'em two more turns to live."

From:	chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:58:14 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 22 >>>...It also used to get used during all those times when we got involved
>>>in automatic weapons fights in malls (Ahhhh they were the days)
>>>
>>Malls? What are those? Oh yeah! We fought in one once, but it was some
>>hideous blob thing that we couldn't hurt... That's right:)
>
>Didn't I tell you it was a protean?
>I thought you figured that one out?
>
Couldn't remember the name off hand...:)

****************************************************************************
*******
-Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich
chaos@*****.com
Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
****************************************************************************
*******

"I say we go back to the ship, and nuke the
site from Orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
-Ripley, "Aliens"

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:55:39 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 23 On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Joker wrote:

> Sure you can miss all the potential targets.... but can you stop the
> bullet blowing though your target and toasting someone standing behind
> him/her? Especially when using a (v. common) high powered gun?
>
> We used to assign an arbitrary 3 to 5 barrier rating to an unarmored
> civilian, mainly for use in hostage situations where you want to take
> someone down when he's hiding behind an innocent. (Counter terrorists
> currently use that as one of their tactical options)

Wasn't there an official rule somewhere which said that a person has a
barrier rating equal to their Body for just such instances. But then maybe
that was a house rule I can never remember :(

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Life is a choice, Death....an obligation."-Me
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun

From:	"Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:50:33 +0000

Message no. 24 On 1 Oct 96 at 14:16, Joker wrote:
> Sure you can miss all the potential targets.... but can you stop the
> bullet blowing though your target and toasting someone standing behind
> him/her? Especially when using a (v. common) high powered gun?
>
> We used to assign an arbitrary 3 to 5 barrier rating to an unarmored
> civilian, mainly for use in hostage situations where you want to take
> someone down when he's hiding behind an innocent. (Counter terrorists
> currently use that as one of their tactical options)
Nice solution to hostage situation: One character aims for villain's head and
holds his action. Second character shoot in hostage's leg. With shot of his
friend, first character shoots. Hostage falls over (with a wound to his leg),
villain gets hit. Well, in most cases, anyway...

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	"Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:50:33 +0000

Message no. 25 On 1 Oct 96 at 1:16, Steven Ratkovich wrote:

> >Sure you can miss all the potential targets.... but can you stop the
> >bullet blowing though your target and toasting someone standing behind
> >him/her? Especially when using a (v. common) high powered gun?
> >
> This is a good point... Especially the Panthers that munchkins (and Bull,
> when in Chicago or on Isle Nubla, or facing a cybered wyvern, or...you get
> the point:)> love to use so often...:)
Doesn't work with explosive Ammo, though :-(

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | "Hate is a force of|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| attraction. Hate is|
| \___ __/ | | just love with its|
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* |back turned" - Terry|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me |Pratchett-Masquerade|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com
Subject:	Re[2]: Smart Guns
Date:	Tue, 01 Oct 96 15:15:08 EST

Message no. 26 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Smart Guns

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Joker wrote:

> Sure you can miss all the potential targets.... but can you stop the
> bullet blowing though your target and toasting someone standing behind
> him/her? Especially when using a (v. common) high powered gun?
>
> We used to assign an arbitrary 3 to 5 barrier rating to an unarmored
> civilian, mainly for use in hostage situations where you want to take
> someone down when he's hiding behind an innocent. (Counter terrorists
> currently use that as one of their tactical options)

Wasn't there an official rule somewhere which said that a person has a
barrier rating equal to their Body for just such instances. But then maybe
that was a house rule I can never remember :(

sorry I don't really buy a troll as a barrier rating 12 wall.
Ferri

From:	Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com
Subject:	Re[2]: Smart Guns
Date:	Tue, 01 Oct 96 15:19:33 EST

Message no. 27 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Smart Guns

On 1 Oct 96 at 1:16, Steven Ratkovich wrote:

> >Sure you can miss all the potential targets.... but can you stop the
> >bullet blowing though your target and toasting someone standing behind
> >him/her? Especially when using a (v. common) high powered gun?
> >
> This is a good point... Especially the Panthers that munchkins (and Bull,
> when in Chicago or on Isle Nubla, or facing a cybered wyvern, or...you get
> the point:)> love to use so often...:)
Doesn't work with explosive Ammo, though :-(

Sascha

And panthers use explosive ammo. blowthrough is really only an issue when your
runners are spreading apds in a luxury neighbourhood, then the GM fun starts..
; )
-ruefully my players know me too well, and they run away if in those situations
instead of shooting back .. :(
Ferri

From:	chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject:	Re: Re[2]: Smart Guns
Date:	Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:12:00 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 28 >> This is a good point... Especially the Panthers that munchkins (and Bull,
>> when in Chicago or on Isle Nubla, or facing a cybered wyvern, or...you get
>> the point:)> love to use so often...:)
>Doesn't work with explosive Ammo, though :-(
>
> Sascha
>
>And panthers use explosive ammo. blowthrough is really only an issue when your
>runners are spreading apds in a luxury neighbourhood, then the GM fun starts..
>; )
>-ruefully my players know me too well, and they run away if in those
situations
>instead of shooting back .. :(
> Ferri
>
<grin>
Shhhh.... Don't tell that to my players...:)

****************************************************************************
*******
-Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich
chaos@*****.com
Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
****************************************************************************
*******

"I say we go back to the ship, and nuke the
site from Orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
-Ripley, "Aliens"

From:	Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Thu, 3 Oct 1996 03:27:34 +0100

Message no. 29 In article <199610020012.TAA13687@***.ncweb.com>, Steven Ratkovich
<chaos@*****.com> writes
>>> This is a good point... Especially the Panthers that munchkins (and Bull,
>>> when in Chicago or on Isle Nubla, or facing a cybered wyvern, or...you get
>>> the point:)> love to use so often...:)
>>Doesn't work with explosive Ammo, though :-(
>>
>> Sascha
>>
>>And panthers use explosive ammo. blowthrough is really only an issue when your
>>runners are spreading apds in a luxury neighbourhood, then the GM fun starts..
>>; )
>>-ruefully my players know me too well, and they run away if in those
>situations
>>instead of shooting back .. :(
>> Ferri
>>
><grin>
>Shhhh.... Don't tell that to my players...:)
Had a player that was heavily into Panther Assault Cannons, a rather
weak Mage ISTR, unfortunately, he had an offer of purchasing some
ammunition *real cheap*, several thousand rounds in fact. What the
fixer didn't tell him was that it had been rejected as faulty by the
producing corp, and earmarked for disposal before the fixer "acquired"
it. The player bought a job lot. And lived to regret it,
Unfortunately he chose to use the ammo during the Queen Euphoria run,
those who've played it will know the section I mean? Damned embarrasing
when the belt blew up. =:-0

Poor guy, he never picked another assault cannon up again.

However, he did discover a penchant for LAW rockets, but that's another
story. :-)

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen

From:	Jamie Houston <s430472@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: Smart Guns
Date:	Fri, 4 Oct 1996 16:31:56 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 30 On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> Gurth wrote:
> |
> |Michael Orion Jackson said on 13:37/26 Sep 96...
> |
> |> Smartguns also are helpful when you are spreading fire across a distance
> |> occupied by friendlies. I remember in 1st ed. that you had to roll to
> |> avoid hitting them if you didn't have a smartgun, but if you did have
> |> one, you automatically missed them.
> |
> |No roll to avoid hitting them, BTB anyway. And the smartgun rule is still
> |in place in SRII. You just fire into a crowd and miss all the potential
> |targets you want to miss -- anyone remember the scene in Top Secret, where
> |the East Germans attack the French Resistance, and Chocolate Mousse opens
> |fire? :)
>
Wow! That is sooo trippy! The last thing I did before coming here to
check my e-mail was watch that movie! It is a complete crack up...

You are now entering....The Twighlight Zone!

Hamish, the really freaked out Scot!

______________________________________________________________________
Jamie Houston * "If a kid asks why it's raining,
aka Bollox, Hamish,(and * a cute thing to tell him is "God is
lots of other unmentionable * crying"...And if he asks why God is
pseudonyms) * crying, another cute thing to tell
s430472@*****.student.gu.edu.au * him is "It's probably something
Griffith Uni * you did!"
______________________________________________________________________

From:	Jamie Houston <s430472@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: Re[2]: Smart Guns
Date:	Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:15:18 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 31 On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com wrote:

>
>
> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
> Subject: Re: Smart Guns
>
>
>
> On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Joker wrote:
>
> > Sure you can miss all the potential targets.... but can you stop the
> > bullet blowing though your target and toasting someone standing behind
> > him/her? Especially when using a (v. common) high powered gun?
> >
> > We used to assign an arbitrary 3 to 5 barrier rating to an unarmored
> > civilian, mainly for use in hostage situations where you want to take
> > someone down when he's hiding behind an innocent. (Counter terrorists
> > currently use that as one of their tactical options)
>
> Wasn't there an official rule somewhere which said that a person has a
> barrier rating equal to their Body for just such instances. But then maybe
> that was a house rule I can never remember :(
>
> sorry I don't really buy a troll as a barrier rating 12 wall.
> Ferri
>
Funny...that's exactly the way we've thought of all the trolls that have
been in our group *grin*
Lucky none of them are on this list huh...:)

Hamish, the "send the troll in first, and we''l hide behind him!" Scot

______________________________________________________________________
Jamie Houston * "If a kid asks why it's raining,
aka Bollox, Hamish,(and * a cute thing to tell him is "God is
lots of other unmentionable * crying"...And if he asks why God is
pseudonyms) * crying, another cute thing to tell
s430472@*****.student.gu.edu.au * him is "It's probably something
Griffith Uni * you did!"
______________________________________________________________________

From:	Mike and Jill Johnson <shadowrn@************.NET>
Subject:	Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 07:21:12 -0600

Message no. 32 Hopefully this hasn't been done to death but I've just got to ask.

Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
<cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire? One of the players in my
group has brought up this topic. His rational is that if there are a group
of people each standing 1 meter apart and one of your friends is mixed in
with them you can autofire sweep the whole line of them and miss your friend.

My personal opinion is that with I smart gun you know where the bullet is
going and move faster when sweeping your "friend" thus causing a miss.

Dr Feelgood AKA MnJ (I'm the M in MnJ)

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 07:30:52 -0600

Message no. 33 Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:
|
| Hopefully this hasn't been done to death but I've just got to ask.
|
| Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
| <cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire? One of the players in my
| group has brought up this topic. His rational is that if there are a group
| of people each standing 1 meter apart and one of your friends is mixed in
| with them you can autofire sweep the whole line of them and miss your friend.

You do have to pull the trigger. But it is my understanding that the
smartgun link allows the user to pause FA fire to maximize bullet
usage and miss friends in the group you're firing at. The pause is
so short that it's pretty hard to notice, but it does allow a
smartlinked person to fire FA at multiple targets without worrying
about stray rounds as he's sweeping his fire.

I think the relevent rules are under "Multiple Targets".

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

From:	Q <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:43:43 -0500

Message no. 34 On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:

> Hopefully this hasn't been done to death but I've just got to ask.
>
> Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
> <cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire?

I believe I've read somewhere that some smarguns (especially factory-built
smartguns) are made without triggers, so that only someone with a
smartlink can use them. So, yes, I'd say the gun in that case can be
fired with only a mental command.

One of the players in my
> group has brought up this topic. His rational is that if there are a group
> of people each standing 1 meter apart and one of your friends is mixed in
> with them you can autofire sweep the whole line of them and miss your friend.

Unfortunately, I don't think it works that way. Smartguns are smart, but
not smart enough to tell one person from another. Smartguns with BF and
FA, I believe, are able to control the burst to hit only the targets, and
eliminate stray bullets, but the person pulling the trigger does not
personally tell the gun which targets to hit and which to ignore.
Especially if he's spraying a burst directly into a crowd, to a smartgun,
on person looks pretty much just like any other.

> My personal opinion is that with I smart gun you know where the bullet is
> going and move faster when sweeping your "friend" thus causing a miss.

You might be able to do this, but not automatically. I'd say raise the
target on the firearms roll to see if the shooter hits only the targets
he's aiming for and miss his friend.

-Q

---------------------------------------
Infinitus est numerus stultorum.

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer

From:	"S.F. Eley" <sf@********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:57:29 -0400

Message no. 35 Mike Johnson wrote:

> Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
> <cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire? One of the players in my
> group has brought up this topic. His rational is that if there are a
group
> of people each standing 1 meter apart and one of your friends is mixed in
> with them you can autofire sweep the whole line of them and miss your
friend.

My take is that the smartlink responds to subliminal muscle movements. To
a trained and practiced user it may SEEM -- at least in terms of speed and
accuracy -- like it responds directly to your thoughts, but in reality
there's a very slight, very specific hand movement that you've
subconsciously associated with the thought "fire this smartgun." (This may
also add to the security of the weapon.. Nobody else could fire it unless
their responses are conditioned the same way yours are, which isn't
likely.)

Part of my rationale for this is that the smartlink is so cheap, both in
money and Essence, that it couldn't possibly be full-scale headware.

The sweep-and-miss phenomenon you describe is in the SRII combat section.
I allow it, but I require a skill roll in order to succeed. The smartlink
is only controlled enough to miss your friends if you're good enough and
fast enough to account for them. My autofire rules and sweep rules are
pretty different from the book's anyway, so I figured adding a sanity check
to smartlinks is a fairly minor change.

- Steve Eley
sf@********.org

From:	"Jackson, Hank" <Hank.Jackson@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:31:01 -0400

Message no. 36 > Mike Johnson wrote:
> > Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
> > <cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire? One of the players in
> my
> > group has brought up this topic. His rational is that if there are
> a
> group
>
This brings up another question about how a smartgun interpolates the
signal. The system that I have been considering has the circuitry in
the gun knowing the angle the gun is pointing using something like a
gyroscope. It relays this info to the circuitry in the user's head.
The circuitry in the user's head relates this angle to a reference line
in it's own circuitry, possibly another gyroscope. It then projects an
image at the right place in the user's perception so that it appears as
a crosshair, etc. This means that the system is entirely internal
unlike the laser sights which can be seen. This is my POV. What other
ideas are there?

Galen
> .
>
>
>

From:	Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:06:00 -0600

Message no. 37 Quoth Mike and Jill Johnson:
>
> Hopefully this hasn't been done to death but I've just got to ask.
>
> Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
> <cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire? One of the players in my
> group has brought up this topic. His rational is that if there are a group
> of people each standing 1 meter apart and one of your friends is mixed in
> with them you can autofire sweep the whole line of them and miss your friend.
>
> My personal opinion is that with I smart gun you know where the bullet is
> going and move faster when sweeping your "friend" thus causing a miss.

We leave the existence of a trigger up to the bearer. The only
stipulation is that it will only fire for the encoded bearer unless
its memory is wiped. What's in the memory? CP2020 has a firearms
option called "Cookie Cutters" which are badges that you're friends can
wear which are encoded into the smartgun. The gun will not fire at the
signature of a person carrying a cookie cutter badge. We allow people to
encode the signature of allies into their smartguns for the same effect,
free of charge. It's just a nice option that we all enjoy having and
think should be standard in smartguns.

Police would like it in hostage situations because they could quickly
lockout the signature of a hostage to ensure their safety. We just like
it because it's cool.

--
Mike Loseke | On the first day,
mike@*******.com | Pink Floyd created God...

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:44:35 -0400

Message no. 38 In a message dated 97-10-06 10:27:57 EDT, Hank.Jackson@*********.COM writes:

> > Mike Johnson wrote:
> > > Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
> > > <cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire? One of the players in
> > my
> > > group has brought up this topic. His rational is that if there are
> > a
> > group
> >
> This brings up another question about how a smartgun interpolates the
> signal. The system that I have been considering has the circuitry in
> the gun knowing the angle the gun is pointing using something like a
> gyroscope. It relays this info to the circuitry in the user's head.
> The circuitry in the user's head relates this angle to a reference line
> in it's own circuitry, possibly another gyroscope. It then projects an
> image at the right place in the user's perception so that it appears as
> a crosshair, etc. This means that the system is entirely internal
> unlike the laser sights which can be seen. This is my POV. What other
> ideas are there?
>

I have a few. A smargun link implant is running the distal range of one's
arm/hand and connects to the mind. It doesn't really say in the mind, and
unless you have a display link of some form, it (the smartlink) doesn't tell
you what 'it's' seeing.

Smartgun Link Technology involves a number of things, MOST of them are
actually being performed to the gun. The idea of a 'gyroscope' is fairly
accurate when determining what direction the smartlinnk is perceiving.
HOWEVER, the link is also connected to the person, which is abstractly (IMHO)
controlling parts of a person's motor response (which in this case is the
reflex response for a single appendige).

Smartgun's -DO- have triggers, they have a 'trigger-locking' mechanism for
the gun itself, thus preventing the gun from even connecting the firing
mechanisms (be they optical focal relays for lasers or hammer and shell for
'standard' firearms). Utilization of Silhouette Recognition is vital to the
system. Programming (Yes, I said programming) allows for the SilRecognition
to incorporate thermal, ultrasonic, even ultraviolet, imagery. So the idea
that someone mentioned about "walking through the field of fire" is just what
it says.

Problems arise when target speeds can rival/exceed the recognition imaging
system (accounting for blurring and image bleeding is harder than you might
think). Other problems arise when you have significant changes to the
silhouette of a recognized individual/target. Chameleon Suits can
drastically screw things, as can ECM of various types for a given target.
Also, fairly drastic changes to the silhouette itself can make things
interesting (Mage Says "What do you mean I'm not in your Smarlink??? You put
me there!!! Yeah, I know I'm a pigeon at the moment...")

Additionally, Smartlinks are NOT full blown tactical computers or field
battletac units. They are however, impressive little pieces of hardware.
Integrating a Smartlink with a TC or BT could be outright impressive.

One of the favorite things using this analogy for the games here is
"inverting" the smartlink program parameters. (hehehehe goes the
Sammy...won't shoot anyone that hasn't pissed me off now...)

The ability to program or alter a Smartlink's parameters would requires a few
things.

An electronics and/or computers B/R kit -AND- a firearms/gunnery B/R kit.
Skills in Computers (Interface Technology) AND Electronics (Linking Between
Systems). Target numbers are left to the GM, but we usually use 6's for the
B/R tests and 8's for the Computers/Electronics tests. Performing a
reprogramming test that also has a Tactical Computer/BattleTAC interface
increases the target numbers for those tests by +2. Please remember that you
get modifiers for tests when you are using gear that is above the
requirements for a given situation (Shop for Kit, Facility for a Shop or Kit-
YEAH!!!). Time is usually the -base- target number in D6 hours for us (we
like the 'D6', it likes us ;). Shops for Kits reduces the time by 25% and
Facilities reduce the time by 50%.

And everyone wondered why a Street Sam or Mercenary needed those comp and
elect tech skills???

-K (as in Keith)

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:50:31 -0400

Message no. 39 In a message dated 97-10-06 11:06:28 EDT, mike@******.VERINET.COM writes:

> Police would like it in hostage situations because they could quickly
> lockout the signature of a hostage to ensure their safety. We just like
> it because it's cool.
>
Sniper Rifle users take really special note of this. It is often the
ultimate idea in target selection.

-K (as in Keith)

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:51:45 -0600

Message no. 40 Jackson, Hank wrote:
|
| This brings up another question about how a smartgun interpolates the
| signal. The system that I have been considering has the circuitry in
| the gun knowing the angle the gun is pointing using something like a
| gyroscope. It relays this info to the circuitry in the user's head.
| The circuitry in the user's head relates this angle to a reference line
| in it's own circuitry, possibly another gyroscope. It then projects an
| image at the right place in the user's perception so that it appears as
| a crosshair, etc. This means that the system is entirely internal
| unlike the laser sights which can be seen. This is my POV. What other
| ideas are there?

That's pretty much how I run it.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

From:	Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:59:59 -0400

Message no. 41 On Monday, October 06, 1997 10:31, Jackson,
Hank[SMTP:Hank.Jackson@*********.COM] wrote:
> > Mike Johnson wrote:
> > > Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
> > > <cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire? One of the players in
> > my
> > > group has brought up this topic. His rational is that if there are
> > a
> > group
> >
> This brings up another question about how a smartgun interpolates the
> signal. The system that I have been considering has the circuitry in
> the gun knowing the angle the gun is pointing using something like a
> gyroscope. It relays this info to the circuitry in the user's head.
> The circuitry in the user's head relates this angle to a reference line
> in it's own circuitry, possibly another gyroscope. It then projects an
> image at the right place in the user's perception so that it appears as
> a crosshair, etc. This means that the system is entirely internal
> unlike the laser sights which can be seen. This is my POV. What other
> ideas are there?

My 2 centiYen: A weapon with internal smartlink hardware whose wielder has
smartlink cyberware may be fired by either physically pulling the trigger,
or by cybernetic command. If the smartlink hardware on the gun or on the
wielder is external, the gun *must* be fired manually. (OTOH, on a weapon
with internal smartlink, the physical trigger may be removed, and the
weapon my *only* be fired cybernetically. In this case, fire mode choice is
made at the time of firing, and isn't even a free action; it is, instead,
part of the firing action (FA still costs an entire complex action).
However, the gun may only be used by those people with a cybernetic
smartgun implant).

In any case, the smartgun has several sensors, which measure and report
such trivia as ammunition type and amount in magazine, barrel temperature,
rounds fired through barrel, total rounds fired by the gun, rounds fired
since last reset (similar to the trip odometer found on cars), and anything
else the manufacturer wired the thing up for. In addition, the system knows
where the barrel is pointing, in relation to a reference axis (this,
incidentally, probably requires that the gun and reference system be zeroed
every few hundred rounds or so, as recoil will undoubtedly cause the gyros
to drift). Furthermore, the system can, using this information, make a
pretty decent approximation as to the probable ballistic path the round is
going to follow (this requires that the rounds be coded in some fashion
that the system can recognize; trivial, but it gives the Evil GM (TM) a
chance to exercise some meanness; "What do you mean, the Ingram only
recognizes rounds encoded with Ares Arms SmartCode (TM) technology, and all
you have is some cheap Singapore import?!?"). It then imparts this
information to the user's smartlink system, which translate it and display
it. The trivia is probably either on-call, or written someplace out of the
main display area. The ballistic path shown as a line (or cone in the case
of a smartlinked shotgun firing shot or for a really-long trajectory shot
where chaotic elements have a chance to affect the trajectory) that appears
to be three-dimensional in the user's viewspace. The track cannot be
displayed as a dot, where exactly is the dot going to be put in relation to
the bullet's trajectory?

Much of this technology already exists for tank main guns today. It just
has to be miniaturized to fit into a small arm and a goggle set.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)

From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:02:03 +1000

Message no. 42 > > Police would like it in hostage situations because they could quickly
> > lockout the signature of a hostage to ensure their safety. We just like
> > it because it's cool.
> >
> Sniper Rifle users take really special note of this. It is often the
> ultimate idea in target selection.

Of course, it doesn't stop the innocent from "accidentally" walking in
front of the bullet after it's been fired...

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"No more drugs for that man!" - Dietrich, Face/Off
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:56:38 +0100

Message no. 43 In article <3.0.3.32.19971006072112.007f12b0@********.cyberhighway.net>,
Mike and Jill Johnson <shadowrn@************.NET> writes
>Hopefully this hasn't been done to death but I've just got to ask.
>
>Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
><cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire? One of the players in my
>group has brought up this topic. His rational is that if there are a group
>of people each standing 1 meter apart and one of your friends is mixed in
>with them you can autofire sweep the whole line of them and miss your friend.
>
>My personal opinion is that with I smart gun you know where the bullet is
>going and move faster when sweeping your "friend" thus causing a miss.

I see the usual smartgun setup as being a standard weapon, with trigger.
You need to pull it to fire. It's a safety thing. There's no reason,
though, that you couldn't go pure-cyber on firing the weapon: it would
be a style statement, and there are probably commercially available kits
for smartguns "No Trigger! No Lag! No More Inaccuracy!" (all marketed to
improve accuracy on the range, of course).

The weapon includes a cutout that locks the action unless the user wants
to fire, and that includes the ability to pause slightly during a burst
as you sweep past something you've consciously decided you don't want to
kill. (If you don't choose to spare it, it gets riddled along with the
rest of the landscape).

Smartguns also do useful things like tell you what ammo you have loaded
(anyone with a camera with DX coding will know what I mean) and
probably, especially on higher-spec weapons, provide information on
barrel and chamber temperature and wear status (useful for a MMG in
sustained fire mode: "Warning. Barrel wear approaching safe limits.
Recommend barrel change within 100 rounds" comes up in your vision) in
my game. Of course, the coding on cheap street ammo may not match what
the rounds really are, or a cheap smartlink may not be reliable...

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:20:53 -0600

Message no. 44 Quoth Lady Jestyr:
>
> > > Police would like it in hostage situations because they could quickly
> > > lockout the signature of a hostage to ensure their safety. We just like
> > > it because it's cool.
> > >
> > Sniper Rifle users take really special note of this. It is often the
> > ultimate idea in target selection.
>
> Of course, it doesn't stop the innocent from "accidentally" walking in
> front of the bullet after it's been fired...

You have a point, but one could also argue that the computer in the smartlink
is going to err on the side of completely missing in a situation like this
over hitting the wrong target. If the tracking is erratic it would come
up with a firing solution that would take into account everything
that it could to make sure that an "off-limits" target would not be hit, or
if it's too erratic it would hold its fire.

This point could be argued to death, and probably will be :), so I'd
just say that whatever the GM and players are happy with. Our group
tends to like alot of really cool tech and gear and options are the
icing on top, so we tend to throw a bunch more capabilities in and then
not overuse them.

--
Mike Loseke | On the first day,
mike@*******.com | Pink Floyd created God...

From:	Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:39:31 -0400

Message no. 45 Q didst utter:

>On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:
>
>> Hopefully this hasn't been done to death but I've just got to ask.
>>
>> Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
>> <cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire?
>
>
>I believe I've read somewhere that some smarguns (especially factory-built
>smartguns) are made without triggers, so that only someone with a
>smartlink can use them. So, yes, I'd say the gun in that case can be
>fired with only a mental command.
>

sounds like CP to me...

>One of the players in my
>> group has brought up this topic. His rational is that if there are a
group
>> of people each standing 1 meter apart and one of your friends is mixed in
>> with them you can autofire sweep the whole line of them and miss your
friend.
>
>
>Unfortunately, I don't think it works that way. Smartguns are smart, but
>not smart enough to tell one person from another. Smartguns with BF and
>FA, I believe, are able to control the burst to hit only the targets, and
>eliminate stray bullets, but the person pulling the trigger does not
>personally tell the gun which targets to hit and which to ignore.
>Especially if he's spraying a burst directly into a crowd, to a smartgun,
>on person looks pretty much just like any other.
>

While the gun doesn't know the difference, the smartgun user does, and he
can make the gun not cycle as he sweeps it through a pack of people he
doesn't plan to cack. How one could do this is beyond me, but who knows how
much could change in 60 years...though the 1911 hasn't changed much in the
pat 60 years.

>
>> My personal opinion is that with I smart gun you know where the bullet is
>> going and move faster when sweeping your "friend" thus causing a miss.
>
>You might be able to do this, but not automatically. I'd say raise the
>target on the firearms roll to see if the shooter hits only the targets
>he's aiming for and miss his friend.
>

Actually, it is. Its in the rules for smartlinks in BBB on page 93 under
walking autofire. They produce no stray rounds when walking fire from
target to target.

Later-
Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Berek Thunderfist, Wolf Lord of the Blackmane Company
-Freelance Corporate Espionage Agent
-Tech Priest in Training
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill

From:	Logan Graves <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:54:29 -0400

Message no. 46 In a wave of de ja vu, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>
> In reply to Mike and/or Jill Johnson's post:
> >Hopefully this hasn't been done to death but I've just got to ask.
> >Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
> ><cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire?
>
> I see the usual smartgun setup as being a standard weapon, with
> trigger. You need to pull it to fire. It's a safety thing. There's no
> reason, though, that you couldn't go pure-cyber on firing the weapon:
> it would be a style statement, and there are probably commercially
> available kits for smartguns "No Trigger! No Lag! No More Inaccuracy!"
> (all marketed to improve accuracy on the range, of course).
<snip, sorry>

Didn't we have this conversation on AOL's G.I.X., about a year ago?

Thought so. No conclusive answers on the trigger question, then
either. Other than the revelation that the rules for CP2020 appeared to
indicate more advanced smartguns than did those for Shadowrun.

I think it was like the caseless/cased ammo debate. Or the VCR/no-VCR
-equiped automobiles. Both "flavors" of guns are available on the
streets, since the smartgun link actually has only to affect a
solenoid-controlled firing pin. The trigger itself is immaterial. (It's
meerly a marketing gimick to sell to a broader base of lowlifes. ;D )

Also for the record, it _is_ possible to use two smartguns
simultaneously, provided you have the coordination (& two diffrently
colored retinal spots). --> Okay okay, the Tac Computer helps!

--Fenris
_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) To live is to war with trolls. --Henrik Ibsen
(>) To war with trolls is to die! --Genghis Grimtooth

From:	Carl J Latoski <garrinthesilent@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:58:43 MST

Message no. 47 Here's my take on smartguns (and how we use them). Most of the
"smart" parts of the weapon are built in/onto the WEAPON. The only
parts that are built into the user are the interface/display/fire
control features. Some can be designed to fire with only a cyber
command, others can be fired either way.

An interesting offshoot (pardon the pun) of all this, is that you
CANNOT just slap a smartlink rig up to an existing weapon in the
middle of combat and "bingo, I have a SmartGun!!!". You need a
gunsmith/programmer to adjust the settings to take into account
what type of weapon/ammo/etc for the weapon to track properly.

As far as not hitting your friends in a firefight/sweep, just make
the shooter roll a perception check to see if s/he notices the
friendly in the middle of the lunchmeat.... If the interface
control says "dont fire" then jerking on the trigger doesnt do much
good.

Just my nickels worth (inflation dontcha know....)

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:19:21 +0100

Message no. 48 Mike and Jill Johnson said on 7:21/ 6 Oct 97...

> Do smartguns require you to pull the trigger or are you mentally
> <cybernetically> commanding the gun to fire? One of the players in my
> group has brought up this topic. His rational is that if there are a group
> of people each standing 1 meter apart and one of your friends is mixed in
> with them you can autofire sweep the whole line of them and miss your friend.
>
> My personal opinion is that with I smart gun you know where the bullet is
> going and move faster when sweeping your "friend" thus causing a miss.

Either would be possible, IMHO. You could link the smartgun to the trigger
group and shoot the gun cybernetically like your friend suggests, while
other types of smartlink (another make, for instance) might not link the
trigger group to your nervous system.

A third option is that it's somewhere in between: you have to manually
pull the trigger, but when you give the gun a (subconscious) signal of
"that's my friend!" the smartlink doesn't release the hammer even though
you have the trigger pulled all the way back.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Forgetting anything as exciting as this would be an
exercise in futility.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:19:21 +0100

Message no. 49 Q said on 8:43/ 6 Oct 97...

> I believe I've read somewhere that some smarguns (especially factory-built
> smartguns) are made without triggers, so that only someone with a
> smartlink can use them. So, yes, I'd say the gun in that case can be
> fired with only a mental command.

I can't remember this from any SR book, but in Cyberpunk 2020 it does
mention that the firing command is given through the smartlink instead of
by pulling the trigger.

> You might be able to do this, but not automatically. I'd say raise the
> target on the firearms roll to see if the shooter hits only the targets
> he's aiming for and miss his friend.

Nope, BTB you can automatically miss any friendly targets that happen to
be in your line of fire when using a cyber-controlled, smartlinked gun.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Forgetting anything as exciting as this would be an
exercise in futility.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Smartguns
Date:	Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:19:21 +0100

Message no. 50 S.F. Eley said on 9:57/ 6 Oct 97...

[snipped]

It's been a long time since I've seen that name over a message... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Forgetting anything as exciting as this would be an
exercise in futility.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 51 There have been a lot of opinions about how smartguns work flying around
lately, so I thought it might be a good idea to take a look in the
books...

What we know about smartlinks from SRII is the following:

* A smartgun controlled through smartlink cyberware can eject ammo clips
and change firing modes as Free Actions rather than Simple Actions (p.81)

This means the linkage is two-way, and a smartlink is more than just a
system that measures the gun's angle and what have you -- it is also wired
into several of the gun's controls. From that, it would be handy, but not
absolutely required, if the smartlink were to relay the current position
of those switches and things to the user in some way. However, whether or
not it actually does that isn't mentioned.
It also isn't mentioned if the trigger is replaced or not. This would fit
in with the other functions being wired into the smartlink circuitry, but
not entire necessary if the smartlink can operate a weapon's trigger
group. Also, removing the trigger makes it very hard for another person
(without smartlink) to use the gun.

* Coupled to smartlink cyberware, a smartlinked gun gives a -2 TN
modifier; the modifier is only -1 if linked to smart goggles (p.89)

This isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand, but I included it
for completeness.

* Smartguns don't waste rounds when walking fire from one target to the
next and they never produce stray shots (p.93)

As they don't waste rounds, this suggests smartlink systems not only
control things like magazine releases and fire selectors, but part of
or the whole trigger mechanism as well. However, it is _not_ stated
anywhere whether the trigger is or isn't present on a smartgun.

* Smart goggles connect to a smartlink-equipped gun, and project red cross
hairs where the gun is aimed at; it also shows the weapon's ammo status.
(p.241) Smartlink cyberware projects a dot or cross hairs on the user's
retina showing the weapon's line of fire (p.249)

Not mentioned is if the ammo status also appears on the character's retina
when using smartlink cyberware, but it would be safe to assume that it
does. What the ammo status exactly IS, isn't mentioned though. It could be
several things: whether a round is chambered, what type of round is
chambered, how many rounds are left in the weapon, etc. Some of those are
easier than others; measuring the amounf of ammo left would require some
electronics in the clip as well as in the gun, for example.

* Smartlink circuitry in a gun provides the user with feedback "relating
the gun's angle to the shooter's line of sight" (p.241).

Note that none of the other information that we assume a smartgun gives is
mentioned, but this could be an oversight on FASA's part.

* It takes about an hour to install an external smartlink on a gun (p.241)

Again, not really relevant to the discussion.

From the above, I'd say that Keith Henry's post (Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:44:35
-0400) about how smartguns work is furthest from the BTB interpretation.
Image recognition isn't mentioned anywhere, to the best of my knowledge;
it's not mentioned anywhere how a smartgun can automagically miss
targets, only that it can.

Paul Adam's view of smartguns (Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:56:38 +0100) is closer
to the view in SRII, but with some minor features added in that aren't
specifically mentioned in the book. Those features shouldn't be too hard
to add, though, IMHO.

Finally Carl J Latoski's message (Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:58:43 MST) explaining
his view. This is again much closer to the BTB guidelines than Keith's,
and he's right about smartlinks not being easily transferred from
one gun to another. The Perception test to void hitting unwanted targets
suggests he feels it's the firer's decision whether or not to shoot,
rather than basing it on recognition of unwanted targets.

My own view is that a smartlink provides the user with much faster control
over a weapon's features than possible otherwise. The gun retains the
trigger and all other controls, but the sartlink can work them for you if
you want to -- that is, if you think about it. Think the word "eject" and
it drops the clip from the gun, for example. I explain the "no stray
rounds" rule by saying that the gun doesn't fire unless you want it to;
the safety is linked to your subconscious in some way, so that when you
see a target which you wouldn't want to hit the computer picks this up and
refuses the fire the weapon until your thoughts indicate it's okay to fire
again.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 52 > From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 7:45 AM

<Snip>

> My own view is that a smartlink provides the user with much faster
control
> over a weapon's features than possible otherwise. The gun retains the
> trigger and all other controls, but the sartlink can work them for you if
> you want to -- that is, if you think about it. Think the word "eject" and
> it drops the clip from the gun, for example. I explain the "no stray
> rounds" rule by saying that the gun doesn't fire unless you want it to;
> the safety is linked to your subconscious in some way, so that when you
> see a target which you wouldn't want to hit the computer picks this up
and
> refuses the fire the weapon until your thoughts indicate it's okay to
fire
> again.

I really don't like this view of how a smartgun knows when not to fire,
even though the trigger is pulled. It's too much like mindreading (being
able to delve into your subconscious and all).

At this point, the only plausible explaination for the gun not producing
extra rounds when walking fire between targets or producing stray rounds
would be (IMO) thinking a command to the smartlink while firing that would
trigger the "not on target" response. This would work the same as thinking
"eject clip" or "change to burst fire" mental commands that are
already in
use.

Also, the best way to assure that you don't hit a friendly is not to pull
the trigger while aiming at a friendly. The smartlink just helps catch
those sloppy mistakes (at the last split second, you realize you're aiming
at a friendly and give the command to not fire). ;) and it's probably not
a good thing to rely on the gun to work in this capacity all the time, or
to rely on yourself catching the bullet before it leaves the chamber.
Spraying lead into a room blindly and then selectively stopping bullets 2 6
and 8 from firing because they would hit friendlies would take an awful lot
of talent, and perhaps one or two friendlies would be dead by the end of
the exchange.

> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Justin :)

Message no. 53 Smartguns are a combination of the two, a shadowrunner, even a
starting one, knows some rules of combat. If you can't see then yes
you will hit a friend if he's their. However when shooting across
him you've seen the people you are shooting at. Having seen the
people you are shooting at he mind is quick enough, quicker than
cyberware, to distinguish between friendlies and non-friendlies.
Once the distinction is made then the runner thinks of who he wants
to shoot and who he wants to miss, then combining cyberware and skill
he makes the shot.

The trigger remains on the gun.

Message no. 54 > My own view is that a smartlink provides the user with much faster control
> over a weapon's features than possible otherwise. The gun retains the
> trigger and all other controls, but the sartlink can work them for you if
> you want to -- that is, if you think about it. Think the word "eject" and
> it drops the clip from the gun, for example. I explain the "no stray
> rounds" rule by saying that the gun doesn't fire unless you want it to;
> the safety is linked to your subconscious in some way, so that when you
> see a target which you wouldn't want to hit the computer picks this up and
> refuses the fire the weapon until your thoughts indicate it's okay to fire
> again.

This has brought an idea to my mind. What if someone design a
wireless smartgun link? When someone other than the owner
(smartlinked) of the weapon tries to use it... well, you can imagine
it :)
I don't think it would be too hard to make a short-distance remote
smartgun link. Maybe dropping the -2 to the TN to -1 due to the
transmission delay or something like that?

> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

--
Monde

Message no. 55 >Nope, BTB you can automatically miss any friendly targets that happen
to
>be in your line of fire when using a cyber-controlled, smartlinked gun.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

We had an "discussion" about this in my group. Actually, the BBB
never says anything about friendly fire, line of fire, or friendly
targets.
It simply says that smartlinked guns don't produce stray rounds
when walking fire (ie, doing full auto on widely seperated targets).
They can produce stray rounds if you really want to, say to do
suppressive fire. Thats all it mentions- the description just says its
an improved targeting system, which i assume means it does some math and
zero's your sights for you depending on muzzle velocity. A mentally
comanded trigger might smooth your pull, enhancing aim a bit more.
If you have your gun pointed at a "friendly" target, and comand it to
fire, well, you decided to produce a stray round. Or you intentionally
shot your (ex)friend <g>.
Where this really comes up is in "shoot around the hostage"
situations. Now, according to some, since you can't accidntally shoot
friendly's, you either hit the baddy or miss completely. Poppycock.
The -2 (and, with SL2, reduction in called shot penalty) takes into
account that you are more likey to hit what you want (in this case, the
baddy behind the hostage). Once that bullet is out there, cruising on
Newton, it hits what it hits- if it misses the baddy, it's a stray round
that could have hit the hostage.

Mongoose- "Shoot through the hostage, its the only way to be sure."

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Message no. 56 Sebastion Wires wrote:
|
| >Nope, BTB you can automatically miss any friendly targets that happen
| to
| >be in your line of fire when using a cyber-controlled, smartlinked gun.
| >
| >--
| >Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
|
| We had an "discussion" about this in my group. Actually, the BBB
| never says anything about friendly fire, line of fire, or friendly
| targets.
| It simply says that smartlinked guns don't produce stray rounds
| when walking fire (ie, doing full auto on widely seperated targets).

If you're walking your fire from one target to another and your
friend is in between them then he won't get hit by any stray rounds
because your friend isn't one of your targets.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 57 > We had an "discussion" about this in my group. Actually, the
> BBB
> never says anything about friendly fire, line of fire, or friendly
> targets.
> It simply says that smartlinked guns don't produce stray rounds
> when walking fire (ie, doing full auto on widely seperated targets).
> They can produce stray rounds if you really want to, say to do
> suppressive fire. Thats all it mentions- the description just says

I distinctly recall seeing in both 1st and 2nd edition black books
the bit about walking fire not hitting friendly targets, but I don't
remember seeing the "not producing stray rounds" bit. I was confused
about how it did that first trick, and the second trick would make it
even more confusing. Can someone look this up and quote? (I'm not a
t home)

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 58 >From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
>Subject: Re: Smartguns

>|Sebastion Wires wrote:
>|
>| >Nope, BTB you can automatically miss any friendly targets that
happen
>| to
>| >be in your line of fire when using a cyber-controlled, smartlinked
gun.
>| >
>| >--
>| >Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
>|
>| We had an "discussion" about this in my group. Actually, the
BBB
>| never says anything about friendly fire, line of fire, or friendly
>| targets.
>| It simply says that smartlinked guns don't produce stray rounds
>| when walking fire (ie, doing full auto on widely seperated targets).
>
>If you're walking your fire from one target to another and your
>friend is in between them then he won't get hit by any stray rounds
>because your friend isn't one of your targets.
>
>-David

A very deft paraphrase, and an acuurate interpretation of the rules.
However, the point I was making in the orriginal post, and which you
entirely snipped, is that is the ONLY instance where the book says you
will automatically "miss" a known friendly. It does not adress "spray
and pray" or "partial cover by friendly" situtions.

Mongoose

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Message no. 59 Sebastion Wires wrote:
|
| >If you're walking your fire from one target to another and your
| >friend is in between them then he won't get hit by any stray rounds
| >because your friend isn't one of your targets.
| >
| >-David
|
[snip]
|
| However, the point I was making in the orriginal post, and which you
| entirely snipped, is that is the ONLY instance where the book says you
| will automatically "miss" a known friendly.

Woops. I guess I'm feeling a little "snipy" today :) Sorry.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 60 Justin Pinnow said on 7:38/ 7 Oct 97...

> I really don't like this view of how a smartgun knows when not to fire,
> even though the trigger is pulled. It's too much like mindreading (being
> able to delve into your subconscious and all).

Perhaps I should have chosen better words, as it didn't come out quite the
way I intended it to. See below:

[paragraph snipped]
>
> Also, the best way to assure that you don't hit a friendly is not to pull
> the trigger while aiming at a friendly. The smartlink just helps catch
> those sloppy mistakes (at the last split second, you realize you're aiming
> at a friendly and give the command to not fire). ;)

Realizing "you're aiming at a friendly" is what I meant. This isn't really
a subconscious thought, but it also isn't a fully conscious "Gun, stop
firing" thought sent specifically to the smartlink. If you had to do that,
then you'd have fired long before you finish thinking the command.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 61 Gurth wrote:
> Not mentioned is if the ammo status also appears on the character's retina
> when using smartlink cyberware, but it would be safe to assume that it
> does. What the ammo status exactly IS, isn't mentioned though. It could be
> several things: whether a round is chambered, what type of round is
> chambered, how many rounds are left in the weapon, etc. Some of those are
> easier than others; measuring the amounf of ammo left would require some
> electronics in the clip as well as in the gun, for example.

Well, not necessarily. Maybe for a 100% accurate count, but you could just
assume that the counter resets itself whenever you enter a new clip, and then
just counts the rounds fired. This would give you a count. It wouldn't work
for unusual clip sizes or for clips that are partially full when you insert
them, but it also wouldn't require any real extra wiring.

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

Message no. 62 Brett Borger said on 16:20/ 7 Oct 97...

> I distinctly recall seeing in both 1st and 2nd edition black books
> the bit about walking fire not hitting friendly targets, but I don't
> remember seeing the "not producing stray rounds" bit. I was confused
> about how it did that first trick, and the second trick would make it
> even more confusing. Can someone look this up and quote? (I'm not a
> t home)

It's on page 93 of SRII, and page 68 of SR1.

SR1: "A character using autofire may sweep from one target to another,
thereby performing an action called "walking the fire." Each meter of
distance between the targets requires one burst of sweeping fire. A
smartgun can walk autofire past a friendly character without hitting him."
It then goes on to give an example with a diagram of someone firing 6
rounds at two targets with a friendly inbetween. In essence, a target is
automatically hit by a stray round under SR1 rules.

SRII: "Full autofire walked from one target to the next may result in
stray shots striking an unintentional target." Then some talk about the
game mechanics, which come down to rolling to see if targets get hit
instead of it being automatic. Then: "Remember, each meter between
targets produces one stray round, and smartguns never produce stray
rounds."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 63 Sebastion Wires said on 12:49/ 7 Oct 97...

> We had an "discussion" about this in my group. Actually, the BBB
> never says anything about friendly fire, line of fire, or friendly
> targets.
> It simply says that smartlinked guns don't produce stray rounds
> when walking fire (ie, doing full auto on widely seperated targets).

And the stray rounds rule applies to targets that are standing between two
targets you actually want to hit. Most of the time, these will be
friendlies -- thus, a smartgun can miss friendly targets if you want it
to.

> They can produce stray rounds if you really want to

Naturally.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 64 Ray & Tamara said on 15:10/ 8 Oct 97...

[smartlink measuring ammo left in gun requires chips in clip]
> Well, not necessarily. Maybe for a 100% accurate count, but you could just
> assume that the counter resets itself whenever you enter a new clip, and then
> just counts the rounds fired. This would give you a count. It wouldn't work
> for unusual clip sizes or for clips that are partially full when you insert
> them, but it also wouldn't require any real extra wiring.

If you count the rounds fired, you don't know how many are left in the
clip. With a wepaon feeding from an internal magazine it's easy enough to
do, since all the hardware can be built into the gun to count the rounds
left. However, with a clip-fed weapon you can use different clip sizes, or
like you say not load a clip all the way. Then you get nasty surprises:

Gun: "Click!"
Sammy: "But there are still 12 rounds left according to my smartlink! Why
is this thing empty?"
Other sammy: "Oh, didn't I tell you? I gave you a 20-round clip instead of
thr 32-rounders you're used to."
Security guards: BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!
*sounds of dying sammies*

IMHO, if you want to have an accurate count of the ammo left in the gun,
without doing it in a roundabout way, you have to put electronics into the
magazine that senses how far the spring is compressed (or something), so
it deduces from that how many rounds are left.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 65 In article <199710081827.UAA29079@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>If you count the rounds fired, you don't know how many are left in the
>clip. With a wepaon feeding from an internal magazine it's easy enough to
>do, since all the hardware can be built into the gun to count the rounds
>left. However, with a clip-fed weapon you can use different clip sizes, or
>like you say not load a clip all the way.

I'd guess it would be easy to put a simple code on the clip to say
whether it's a 15-round (small and concealable) or a 30-round (the
usual), for instance. You'd need to: look at the options you can jam
into the magazine well of a Glock 19...

10-round (US Brady Bill requirement)
15-round (standard magazine)
17-round (from the larger Glock 17)
19-round (the -17 clip with a +2 baseplate)
33-round (intended for the full-auto Glock 18)

I think you'd need some sort of coding to make sense of that lot...

The other issue is the old problem of "if you put 30 rounds in a M-16
magazine designed for 30 rounds you get misfeeds, so load 29 normally or
28 in sandy conditions" (don't know if that's still true or not).
Probably need to override the mechanism - shove in a clip and when the
counter zips up to 30, knock two rounds off before you start shooting.
Free Action as part of reloading, I'd say.

>IMHO, if you want to have an accurate count of the ammo left in the gun,
>without doing it in a roundabout way, you have to put electronics into the
>magazine that senses how far the spring is compressed (or something), so
>it deduces from that how many rounds are left.

The only foolproof mechanism, I agree, but it makes magazines too
expensive.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Message no. 66 Quoth Paul J. Adam:
>
> In article <199710081827.UAA29079@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
> <gurth@******.NL> writes
> >If you count the rounds fired, you don't know how many are left in the
> >clip. With a wepaon feeding from an internal magazine it's easy enough to
> >do, since all the hardware can be built into the gun to count the rounds
> >left. However, with a clip-fed weapon you can use different clip sizes, or
> >like you say not load a clip all the way.
>
> I'd guess it would be easy to put a simple code on the clip to say
> whether it's a 15-round (small and concealable) or a 30-round (the
> usual), for instance. You'd need to: look at the options you can jam
> into the magazine well of a Glock 19...
>
> 10-round (US Brady Bill requirement)
> 15-round (standard magazine)
> 17-round (from the larger Glock 17)
> 19-round (the -17 clip with a +2 baseplate)
> 33-round (intended for the full-auto Glock 18)
>
> I think you'd need some sort of coding to make sense of that lot...

I think that the easiest way to do this would be to have a microchip
in the magazine read the tension off of the spring itself to determine
how many rounds are in the magazine. Simple and magazine dependent. You
could expand off of this to have alternating ammo types and have the
type displayed in an image link or goggles. There's a ton of stuff you
can do with smartgun circuitry.

> The other issue is the old problem of "if you put 30 rounds in a M-16
> magazine designed for 30 rounds you get misfeeds, so load 29 normally or
> 28 in sandy conditions" (don't know if that's still true or not).

We went with 27 rounds in a 30-round magazine and 18 in the 20-round
magazine using the M-16 A2 because of the three-round burst. Of course,
this was in the stupid fscking Signal/Field Artillery unit I was in that
thought they were a combat arms unit... Stupid REMFs. The Infantry may
do it differently. Armor doesn't care. :)

> Probably need to override the mechanism - shove in a clip and when the
> counter zips up to 30, knock two rounds off before you start shooting.
> Free Action as part of reloading, I'd say.

The design from above nicely negates the need for this.

> >IMHO, if you want to have an accurate count of the ammo left in the gun,
> >without doing it in a roundabout way, you have to put electronics into the
> >magazine that senses how far the spring is compressed (or something), so
> >it deduces from that how many rounds are left.
>
> The only foolproof mechanism, I agree, but it makes magazines too
> expensive.

So make it out of "smart" silicon or something. It could be made to
work passively enough to be cost-effective. You could also sell "plug
and play" magazines this way: take the shrinkwrap off, lock, load and
fire. That would be a slightly more cost effective way of marketing ammo
for some weapons, but definitely not for every weapon.

--
Mike Loseke | On the first day,
mike@*******.com | Pink Floyd created God...

Message no. 67 <Snip: How to keep track of ammo w/ smartgun>

You know, I was thinking it could probably be
done pretty cheaply in 205x. A piezoelectric
preasure sensor costs pennys, and the smarts to
clean up the data from this (currently requiring a
chip) would be equally cheap considering some
of the tech around in SR.

Double-Domed Mike

Message no. 68 Quoth Mike Elkins:
>
> <Snip: How to keep track of ammo w/ smartgun>
>
> You know, I was thinking it could probably be
> done pretty cheaply in 205x. A piezoelectric
> preasure sensor costs pennys, and the smarts to
> clean up the data from this (currently requiring a
> chip) would be equally cheap considering some
> of the tech around in SR.

This would effectively require no smarts in the clip itself. You could
have a small number hardcoded into the wiring in the clip (max number
of rounds) and a contact in the magazine well that read the number to
subtract from the hardcoded number. Walah! Number of rounds remaining
from a cheaply produced magazine. Cool.

--
Mike Loseke | On the first day,
mike@*******.com | Pink Floyd created God...

Message no. 69 >Subject: Re: Smartguns

>Gurth wrote:
measuring the amounf of ammo left would require some
>> electronics in the clip as well as in the gun, for example.
>
>Well, not necessarily. Maybe for a 100% accurate count, but you could
just
>assume that the counter resets itself whenever you enter a new clip,

<drill sergeant> Look at your clip, insertable,bullet holding, Maggot!
Is it solid and opaque? No, shitheap,it is transparent plastic with
holes! Those holes are for sensors, and your puny p3n15! <drill
sergeant>

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Message no. 70 Sebastion Wires said on 16:38/ 8 Oct 97...

> <drill sergeant> Look at your clip, insertable,bullet holding, Maggot!
> Is it solid and opaque? No, shitheap,it is transparent plastic with
> holes! Those holes are for sensors, and your puny p3n15! <drill
> sergeant>

Again, not all that valid a solution. It would work in a pistol or other
weapon where the clip disappears completely into the gun, but look at a
typical assault rifle or SMG: the clip sticks out of the weapon by quite a
bit. Are you saying smartlinks would put a sensor boom under the magazine
opening, or (even worse) that the firer would have to insert sensors into
the holes in the magazine? Sounds a bit impractical to me...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 71 Mike Elkins said on 18:29/ 8 Oct 97...

> You know, I was thinking it could probably be done pretty cheaply in
> 205x. A piezoelectric preasure sensor costs pennys, and the smarts to
> clean up the data from this (currently requiring a chip) would be
> equally cheap considering some of the tech around in SR.

Although I agree that this should be cheap to manufacture, don't forget
that it's megacorps who are selling this stuff... The military may get
them at low cost, but I doubt they sell them with the same profit margin
as regular clips to civilians. IMHO they'll add quite a bit to the price,
because after all this is a high-tech item for a much smaller market than
normal clips...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 72 Paul J. Adam said on 22:05/ 8 Oct 97...

> I'd guess it would be easy to put a simple code on the clip to say
> whether it's a 15-round (small and concealable) or a 30-round (the
> usual), for instance.

That would be the easiest solution, yes.

> You'd need to: look at the options you can jam into the magazine well of
> a Glock 19...
[snip lost o' mags]

That's exactly what I meant. If you assume a single clip size (say, 15
rounds for the Glock) when calibrating the smartlink, it'll give strange
readouts when using larger ones: "-17 rounds remaining" or something.

> The other issue is the old problem of "if you put 30 rounds in a M-16
> magazine designed for 30 rounds you get misfeeds, so load 29 normally or
> 28 in sandy conditions" (don't know if that's still true or not).

I believe only for 20-round mags used in Vietnam. I certainly remember
seeing several movies where the magazine was too long for a 20-round and
_much_ too short (and too straight) for 30 rounds, so perhaps they
lengthened the 20-round ones at some point to compensate for the feeding
problems?

> Probably need to override the mechanism - shove in a clip and when the
> counter zips up to 30, knock two rounds off before you start shooting.
> Free Action as part of reloading, I'd say.

With one or two rounds this isn't a big problem. After all, when the
counter approaches 0 you know you're almost out of ammo. Only when you
load a lot less than the full capacity into a clip will it cause problems.

> The only foolproof mechanism, I agree, but it makes magazines too
> expensive.

That's what I thought too. Although IMHO there are probably magazines like
that on the market in SR, but they cost a lot more than 5Y per clip.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 73 > I think that the easiest way to do this would be to have a microchip
>in the magazine read the tension off of the spring itself to determine
>how many rounds are in the magazine. Simple and magazine dependent. You
>could expand off of this to have alternating ammo types and have the
>type displayed in an image link or goggles. There's a ton of stuff you
>can do with smartgun circuitry.

Even simpler (as ihinted in a previous post)- have a bar code or
magstipor something on the clip feed data to the gun about the clip
(*like max capacity and spring strength, or bullet configuration). Then
sensors IN THE GUN detecthow may bullets are left- an easy way would be
a transparent / perforated clip and some light / feller sensors, or a
strain guage measuring how hard the top bullet is bieng pushed up
(unreliable, IMHO, but I'm not a real engenier).

Mongoose

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Message no. 74 In article <199710090921.LAA23598@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>Paul J. Adam said on 22:05/ 8 Oct 97...
>> The other issue is the old problem of "if you put 30 rounds in a M-16
>> magazine designed for 30 rounds you get misfeeds, so load 29 normally or
>> 28 in sandy conditions" (don't know if that's still true or not).
>
>I believe only for 20-round mags used in Vietnam. I certainly remember
>seeing several movies where the magazine was too long for a 20-round and
>_much_ too short (and too straight) for 30 rounds, so perhaps they
>lengthened the 20-round ones at some point to compensate for the feeding
>problems?

Certainly the Sterling SMGs we used to have had nominal 34-round
magazinres, which in practice were loaded with 32 or 30 in sandy/dusty
conditions: the SA80 magazines, based on the M-16 pattern, could be
cranky in dusty conditions if you insisted on stuffing them with 30.

>> Probably need to override the mechanism - shove in a clip and when the
>> counter zips up to 30, knock two rounds off before you start shooting.
>> Free Action as part of reloading, I'd say.
>
>With one or two rounds this isn't a big problem. After all, when the
>counter approaches 0 you know you're almost out of ammo. Only when you
>load a lot less than the full capacity into a clip will it cause problems.

The standard trick is to load the last three rounds as tracer. When you
see smoke and/or light from your shots, time to change :) Obviates the
problem...

In practice you'd be unlikely to push a clip down to zero, especially in
an urban firefight. FIBUA exercises always seemed to end with a shirtful
of magazines, most with rounds left in them: "mag's fired a lot of
shots, I've got ten seconds, change for a full one" was a habit you got
into when house-clearing. A magazine per room was a handy rule of thumb.

After all, if you shove them down the front of your jacket, you can
reload at leisure once the house is cleared and the next section
advances past you...

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Message no. 75 Here's an interesting story from the land of Oz.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/08/29/Consumers/smartgun_030829

====Shadow

The future is painted on a canvas of infinite reach.

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