Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:55:14 -0700 (MST)

Message no. 1 Some comments on the APDS thread regarding smartguns and variable ammo
types sparked an idea.

Take a revolver (6 rnds/cy), smartgun it, and load different ammo types in
the cylinder (say three standard rounds, two APDS rounds, and a gell round).
In combat you can spend a free action to rotate the cylinder to the round
you want.

Can you imagine the look on the PC/NPC's face when you follow up a gel
round, that bounces right off their armor, with an APDS round? <EGMG>

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Schizi@*.com Schizi@*.com
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:09:56 EST

Message no. 2 In a message dated 2/24/99 5:54:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:

>
> Take a revolver (6 rnds/cy), smartgun it, and load different ammo types in
> the cylinder (say three standard rounds, two APDS rounds, and a gell
round).
> In combat you can spend a free action to rotate the cylinder to the round
> you want.
>
well, thanks for the suggestion, now I just have to get that nice Cylinder
Shotgun set up for this :-)

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:18:01 -0700 (MST)

Message no. 3 Schizi@***.com wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 2/24/99 5:54:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
/ dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:
/
/ > Take a revolver (6 rnds/cy), smartgun it, and load different ammo types in
/ > the cylinder (say three standard rounds, two APDS rounds, and a gell
/ round).
/ > In combat you can spend a free action to rotate the cylinder to the round
/ > you want.
/
/ well, thanks for the suggestion, now I just have to get that nice Cylinder
/ Shotgun set up for this :-)

Don't forget about the cylinder grenade launcher :)

(My players are gonna hate me <EGMG>)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:12:29 +0000

Message no. 4 In article <199902241355.GAA11987@******.carl.org>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.carl.org> writes
>Take a revolver (6 rnds/cy), smartgun it, and load different ammo types in
>the cylinder (say three standard rounds, two APDS rounds, and a gell round).
>In combat you can spend a free action to rotate the cylinder to the round
>you want.

How about an Armscor Striker? Twelve-shot revolving cylinder magazine on
a 12-gauge shotgun, IIRC. So, four rounds of gel, four of APDS, four of
buckshot, just pick and choose :)

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:59:56 -0600

Message no. 5 :Some comments on the APDS thread regarding smartguns and variable ammo
:types sparked an idea.
:
:Take a revolver (6 rnds/cy), smartgun it, and load different ammo types
in
:the cylinder (say three standard rounds, two APDS rounds, and a gell
round).
:In combat you can spend a free action to rotate the cylinder to the round
:you want.
:
:Can you imagine the look on the PC/NPC's face when you follow up a gel
:round, that bounces right off their armor, with an APDS round? <EGMG>
:
:-David B.

Heck, it doesn't have to be a smartgun- rotating a revolvers cylinder
is easy (simple action), and you could "color code" the outside. Note
that SR revolvers are SS, so most people would have time to choose ammo.
Would it be feasible to have something like a long cylinder with
springs pushing the rounds forward act as a selectable magazine device?
That would make for a bulky gun, but might be worth it for something like
an assault rifle.

Mongoose

From:	Steadfast laughingman@*******.de
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:33:19 +0100

Message no. 6 And so it came to happen that David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Some comments on the APDS thread regarding smartguns and variable ammo
> types sparked an idea.
>
> Take a revolver (6 rnds/cy), smartgun it, and load different ammo types in
> the cylinder (say three standard rounds, two APDS rounds, and a gell round).
> In combat you can spend a free action to rotate the cylinder to the round
> you want.
>
> Can you imagine the look on the PC/NPC's face when you follow up a gel
> round, that bounces right off their armor, with an APDS round? <EGMG>

Yup, and the smile under the helmet of the Sec-guard than the smart Pc
notices that he only got one shot left in his Gimmick and that IS a gel
round.
>:))
--
__________________________________________
---> Steadfast
Selfproclaimed protector of Gerber
BABY's
Mmwahahahahaar...
"I have 'grosse bumm' in my Pocket!
Yes, a real 'GROSSE BUUMM'!"
German translation for Savalette Guardian.
__________________________________________

From:	Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:06:48 +0200

Message no. 7 -----Original Message-----
From: Paul J. Adam <Paul@********.demon.co.uk>
To: shadowRN@*********.org <shadowRN@*********.org>
Date: 24 February 1999 11:21
Subject: Re: Smart Guns/Smart Ammo

>In article <199902241355.GAA11987@******.carl.org>, David Buehrer
><dbuehrer@******.carl.org> writes
>>Take a revolver (6 rnds/cy), smartgun it, and load different ammo
types in
>>the cylinder (say three standard rounds, two APDS rounds, and a gell
round).
>>In combat you can spend a free action to rotate the cylinder to the
round
>>you want.
>
>How about an Armscor Striker? Twelve-shot revolving cylinder magazine
on
>a 12-gauge shotgun, IIRC. So, four rounds of gel, four of APDS, four
of
>buckshot, just pick and choose :)

Yup.. us South Africans make some mean cannons :)

-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>

Step from my tables as I start to chop
I'm a lumberjack DJ Adrock
If you try to knock me you'll get mocked
I'll stir fry you in my wok

Beastie Boys - Intergalactic

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:34:31 +0100

Message no. 8 According to David Buehrer, at 9:18 on 24 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> / well, thanks for the suggestion, now I just have to get that nice Cylinder
> / Shotgun set up for this :-)
>
> Don't forget about the cylinder grenade launcher :)
>
> (My players are gonna hate me <EGMG>)

Already exists: take a look at the Chromebook Conversions
(http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/cc.html) on the Plastic
Warriors site, specifically the Militech Mini-Grenade Launcher with 16-
shot magazine.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:24:08 -0800

Message no. 9 From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
Subject: Re: Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
To: shadowrn@*********.org
Date sent: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:55:14 -0700 (MST)
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org

> Some comments on the APDS thread regarding smartguns and variable ammo
> types sparked an idea.
>
> Take a revolver (6 rnds/cy), smartgun it, and load different ammo types in
> the cylinder (say three standard rounds, two APDS rounds, and a gell round).
> In combat you can spend a free action to rotate the cylinder to the round
> you want.
>
> Can you imagine the look on the PC/NPC's face when you follow up a gel
> round, that bounces right off their armor, with an APDS round? <EGMG>

Yes I can. But more important it establishs a rational reason to pick one
weapon over another. One roleplaying drawback of quantifing weapon
performance stats into a game system is that you either end up with a lot of
weapons that are alike in game stats or you get one clear "best" weapon.
Neither portrays real life. People's choice of a particular gun over another
are based on a wide variety factors some logical some not. I once met some
one who did not like Smith and Wessens because the cylinder turned the
wrong way and others picked a gun because it felt right in their hand. And
then there is the question of which is better 9mm or .45ACP, I have one
opinion and I know that there are others on the list that disagree. But this real
life aspect is missing from most all role playing game systems and with it a bit
of variety and color.

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:20:19 -0700 (MST)

Message no. 10 Mongoose wrote:
/
/ :Some comments on the APDS thread regarding smartguns and variable ammo
/ :types sparked an idea.
/ :
/ :Take a revolver (6 rnds/cy), smartgun it, and load different ammo types
/ in
/ :the cylinder (say three standard rounds, two APDS rounds, and a gell
/ round).
/ :In combat you can spend a free action to rotate the cylinder to the round
/ :you want.
/ :
/ :Can you imagine the look on the PC/NPC's face when you follow up a gel
/ :round, that bounces right off their armor, with an APDS round? <EGMG>
/ :
/ :-David B.
/
/ Heck, it doesn't have to be a smartgun- rotating a revolvers cylinder
/ is easy (simple action), and you could "color code" the outside. Note
/ that SR revolvers are SS, so most people would have time to choose ammo.

I'd like to save that simple action for something else :) For example, it
could be used to fire the revolver you're carrying in your other hand. Or
using it to keep track of what's going on around you.

/ Would it be feasible to have something like a long cylinder with
/ springs pushing the rounds forward act as a selectable magazine device?
/ That would make for a bulky gun, but might be worth it for something like
/ an assault rifle.

You mean like using a magazine like a shotgun has, except multiple tubes of
ammo? I'm sure it could be done. It'd probably be expensive though :)

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:30:03 +0100

Message no. 11 According to David Hinkley, at 3:24 on 25 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> But this real life aspect is missing from most all role playing game
> systems and with it a bit of variety and color.

There is one way of doing this: keep the game data away from the players.
That means that all a player gets to hear about an Ares Predator is its
type, weight, ammo capacity, built-in accessories, and a few more of those
things (plus, if they want to, a lot of technical data that has no effect
on the game). No ranges, damages, or other purely game-mechanics-related
stats.

Unfortunately this kind of thing doesn't work with most RPG rules systems,
because they have too few stats to really make it worth the bother. When
using Phoenix Command it might be worth a try, but in most other systems
I'd give it a miss and just let players pick the gun they feel is "the
best."

The other solution is roleplaying (or perhaps laziness). A character in my
group keeps using a Fichetti Security 500 not because it's the best gun
but because she's used to it. And also because the player doesn't feel
like erasing its stats :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Kevin Dole kdole@***.vsc.edu
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:43:15 EST5EDT

Message no. 12 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
>You mean like using a magazine like a shotgun has, except
>multiple tubes of ammo? I'm sure it could be done. It'd probably
>be expensive though :)

Already been done- it's called the Neostead. It is a South African
shotgun that uses dual tubes. You can select a tube or choose to
alternate. And yes, they would be very expensive- they've yet to go
into standard production.
However, a combigun (rifle and shotgun in one) is a pretty
simple set up, if you want single shots. However, there are some
custom mods that can mount a Remington or Ithica pump under a
rifle (usually an M-16/AR-15), and one outfit has been fiddling with a
a system that is designed to handle both as it comes from the box.
(For the more gunny members of the list, as anyone heard anything
about the Crossfire recently?) However you do the combigun
though, you are going to have bulk- you need to barrels and two
magazines, and two bolts and two.... Well, you get the idea.

Kevin Dole /:|
kdole@***.vsc.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death, and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."

From:	Damian Robinson max.robinson@**.net.au
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:44:13 +1100

Message no. 13 Kevin Dole wrote:
>
> David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
> >You mean like using a magazine like a shotgun has, except
> >multiple tubes of ammo? I'm sure it could be done. It'd probably
> >be expensive though :)
>
> Already been done- it's called the Neostead. It is a South African
> shotgun that uses dual tubes. You can select a tube or choose to
> alternate. And yes, they would be very expensive- they've yet to go
> into standard production.

A rather cool looking gun I might add...

> However, a combigun (rifle and shotgun in one) is a pretty
> simple set up, if you want single shots. However, there are some
> custom mods that can mount a Remington or Ithica pump under a
> rifle (usually an M-16/AR-15), and one outfit has been fiddling with a
> a system that is designed to handle both as it comes from the box.
> (For the more gunny members of the list, as anyone heard anything
> about the Crossfire recently?) However you do the combigun
> though, you are going to have bulk- you need to barrels and two
> magazines, and two bolts and two.... Well, you get the idea.

Hmmm... you mean like an ARES Alpha minus the GL and add a shotgun?
:-{>
Trust me, I've thought of that already. But what to use as the
shotgun?
Say a Rem 990 version, stats same as the Sawnoff version?

Comments anyone?

Home Page:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/4808/
please pay a visit, and don't forget the Guestbook...

ICQ?
#14030875

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:53:41 +0100

Message no. 14 According to Damian Robinson, at 12:44 on 26 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Hmmm... you mean like an ARES Alpha minus the GL and add a shotgun?
> :-{>
> Trust me, I've thought of that already. But what to use as the
> shotgun?
> Say a Rem 990 version, stats same as the Sawnoff version?

Or how about a shotgun specifically designed to be mounted underneath
another weapon? Seems I'm doing nothing but plugging Plastic Warriors
stuff lately, but take a look at
http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/rg.html (or go directly
to an HTML version at
http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/html/newstuff_f.html and scroll
halfway down the page).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"The only mechanoids ever issued with genetalia were those serving
aboard Italian starships" --Kryten, Red Dwarf VIII
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	ArcLight arclight@**************.com
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:32:08 +0100

Message no. 15 > -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org On Behalf Of Gurth
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 10:54 AM
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Re: Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
>
>
> According to Damian Robinson, at 12:44 on 26 Feb 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > Hmmm... you mean like an ARES Alpha minus the GL and add a shotgun?
> > :-{>
> > Trust me, I've thought of that already. But what to use as the
> > shotgun?
> > Say a Rem 990 version, stats same as the Sawnoff version?
>
> Or how about a shotgun specifically designed to be mounted underneath
> another weapon? Seems I'm doing nothing but plugging Plastic Warriors
> stuff lately, but take a look at
> http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/rg.html (or go
> directly
> to an HTML version at
> http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/html/newstuff_f.html
> and scroll
> halfway down the page).

Or get you the Predator series panther, an assault rifle with
an under-barrel shotgun... it's in Project 3, p. 60 :)

The Neostead , btw, is in TSS #2

ArcLight
[BABY #361]------------[ICQ 14322211]
All suspects are guilty, serious.
Otherwise, they wouldn't be suspects,
would they?

From:	Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:54:44 +0000

Message no. 16 In article <36D5FC6D.36BE477D@**.net.au>, Damian Robinson
<max.robinson@**.net.au> writes
>Hmmm... you mean like an ARES Alpha minus the GL and add a shotgun?
>:-{>
>Trust me, I've thought of that already. But what to use as the
>shotgun?
>Say a Rem 990 version, stats same as the Sawnoff version?

A weapon of my own invention...

Defiance 'Railgun' shotgun

Defiance bring you an adaptation of their classic T-250 pump-action
shotgun for under-barrel mounting! Fitted as standard with the TAG Rail
Mount!

Weapon Type Conceal Ammo Mode Damage Cost Weight Avail.
Street Index
'Railgun' Shotgun (-2) 6(m) SA 10S 600 3 6/14
days 2

Recoil modifier +2.
Cannot use accessories other than barrel-mounted or internal.

The weapons may not be fired simultaneously, but the user may fire the
main weapon on one Simple Action and the shotgun on the second, or vice
versa.

The rail mount is rigid enough that targeting systems (scopes, lasers,
smartgun systems) on the main weapon are still effective for the
shotgun.

Recoil modifiers are summed (after compensation) and applied to both
weapons.

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Smart Guns/Smart Ammo
Date:	Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:11:01 +0100

Message no. 17 According to ArcLight, at 13:32 on 26 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Or get you the Predator series panther, an assault rifle with
> an under-barrel shotgun... it's in Project 3, p. 60 :)

Yeah, but there are more of those around on the net (the first one I saw
was in Mike Loseke's SWO Guns (http://www.swo.com (if that's still up, I
haven't looked at in ages)). My main point was that there's not so much
need to modify an existing shotgun design if there is one intended for
under-barrel mounting on the market :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"The only mechanoids ever issued with genetalia were those serving
aboard Italian starships" --Kryten, Red Dwarf VIII
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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