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Message no. 1
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 20:47:29 -0500
On Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:47:41 -0500 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
writes:
<snip>
> Bingo. That's it exactly, as I read it. (Of course, that extra
> induction pad also comes in handy when you've got a smartlinked
> bow...which I think of as kinda twink, but that could just be me.)

A smartlink bow won't work. In order to work it would need to know:
1) the pull of the bow;
2) how far the bow is being pulled back; and
3) what arrow (shape, fletching, etc..) is being fired.

this can be fixed by:
1) program the pull for the bow the smartlink is attaached to.
2) stress sensor to calculate how far the bow is drawn.
3) input by user or selected from pre-programmed list.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 2
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 10:38:09 +0200
According to Alfredo B Alves, at 20:47 on 21 Apr 00, the word on the
street was...

> this can be fixed by:
> 1) program the pull for the bow the smartlink is attaached to.
> 2) stress sensor to calculate how far the bow is drawn.

2a) measure distance between bow and string, perhaps by putting
standardized markings on the arrow.

> 3) input by user or selected from pre-programmed list.

3a) barcode the arrow to indicate its type.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 05:02:52 EDT
In a message dated Fri, 21 Apr 2000 9:51:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Alfredo B Alves
<dghost@****.com> writes:

Warning, there isn't very much of an additional post at the end of this one, but the
information is necessary none-the-less IMO.

> A smartlink bow won't work. In order to work it would need to know:
> 1) the pull of the bow;
> 2) how far the bow is being pulled back; and
> 3) what arrow (shape, fletching, etc..) is being fired.
>
> this can be fixed by:
> 1) program the pull for the bow the smartlink is attaached to.
> 2) stress sensor to calculate how far the bow is drawn.
> 3) input by user or selected from pre-programmed list.

And with giving these answers, can you explain again why it "won't work"?

-Keith
Message no. 4
From: Airwisp@***.com Airwisp@***.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:28:07 EDT
In a message dated 4/21/2000 8:51:26 PM , dghost@****.com writes:

> <snip>
> > Bingo. That's it exactly, as I read it. (Of course, that extra
> > induction pad also comes in handy when you've got a smartlinked
> > bow...which I think of as kinda twink, but that could just be me.)
>
> A smartlink bow won't work. In order to work it would need to know:
> 1) the pull of the bow;
> 2) how far the bow is being pulled back; and
> 3) what arrow (shape, fletching, etc..) is being fired.
>
> this can be fixed by:
> 1) program the pull for the bow the smartlink is attaached to.
> 2) stress sensor to calculate how far the bow is drawn.
> 3) input by user or selected from pre-programmed list.

Using a slight adaption of the rules for Smartlink II's, you can consider a
bow to be a indirect-fire weapon, similar to a grenade gun or the like. You
would need to install a rangefinder onto the bow mount also so that the
smartlink processor can receive information as to the distance to the target.

-Mike
Message no. 5
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:18:58 -0500
On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 05:02:52 EDT HHackerH@***.com writes:
> In a message dated Fri, 21 Apr 2000 9:51:26 PM Eastern Daylight
> Time, Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com> writes:
>
> Warning, there isn't very much of an additional post at the end of
> this one, but the information is necessary none-the-less IMO.
>
> > A smartlink bow won't work. In order to work it would need to
> > know:
> > 1) the pull of the bow;
> > 2) how far the bow is being pulled back; and
> > 3) what arrow (shape, fletching, etc..) is being fired.
> >
> > this can be fixed by:
> > 1) program the pull for the bow the smartlink is attaached to.
> > 2) stress sensor to calculate how far the bow is drawn.
> > 3) input by user or selected from pre-programmed list.

> And with giving these answers, can you explain again why it "won't
> work"?

It needs to be something more than a simple gadget you slap onto the bow.
The bow itself has to be smartlink modified. Now with Gurth's answers ...
Then, yes, it would work.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 6
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:26:43 -0500
On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:28:07 EDT Airwisp@***.com writes:
<SNIP>
> Using a slight adaption of the rules for Smartlink II's, you can
> consider a
> bow to be a indirect-fire weapon, similar to a grenade gun or the
> like. You
> would need to install a rangefinder onto the bow mount also so that
> the
> smartlink processor can receive information as to the distance to
> the target.

1) This does not fix the problems I mentioned in my previous post.
2) I thought bows only had one mount. (IOW, they can't mount a smartgun
link AND a rangefinder.)

IMO, Gurth's post is the best "fix".

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 7
From: dejaffa dejaffa@*********.net
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:48:15 -0400
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
>A smartlink bow won't work. In order to work it would need to know:
>1) the pull of the bow;
>2) how far the bow is being pulled back; and
>3) what arrow (shape, fletching, etc..) is being fired.

All of which could be done with a crossbow.

Hmmm. Evil thoughts...

Tee-Hee
Message no. 8
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:16:05 -0500
On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:48:15 -0400 dejaffa <dejaffa@*********.net>
writes:
> Alfredo B Alves wrote:
> >
> >A smartlink bow won't work. In order to work it would need to know:
> >1) the pull of the bow;
> >2) how far the bow is being pulled back; and
> >3) what arrow (shape, fletching, etc..) is being fired.

> All of which could be done with a crossbow.
>
> Hmmm. Evil thoughts...
>
> Tee-Hee

you still have to adjust for the quarel being fired

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 9
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 21:47:09 -0700
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> you still have to adjust for the quarel being fired

You keep saying this as if a society where you can plug your brain into
a computer and mentally invoke programs can't easily overcome it.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 10
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:21:41 -0500
On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 21:47:09 -0700 "Deirdre M. Brooks"
<xenya@********.com> writes:
> Alfredo B Alves wrote:
> >
> > you still have to adjust for the quarel being fired

> You keep saying this as if a society where you can plug your brain
> into
> a computer and mentally invoke programs can't easily overcome it.

A smartlink does not allow for what you are implying. You'll need more
hardware. If you use Gurth's barcoding suggestion, the problem is solved.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 11
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:06:35 -0700
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> A smartlink does not allow for what you are implying. You'll need more
> hardware. If you use Gurth's barcoding suggestion, the problem is solved.

I'm sorry if you thought I was implying: I think it's not too much of a
stretch to assume/decide/expect smartlinks to handle different types of
arrowheads. At least, I don't see why it's a problem surmountable *only*
by barcodes.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 12
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 01:34:53 -0500
On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:06:35 -0700 "Deirdre M. Brooks"
<xenya@********.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> I'm sorry if you thought I was implying: I think it's not too much
> of a
> stretch to assume/decide/expect smartlinks to handle different types
> of
> arrowheads. At least, I don't see why it's a problem surmountable
> *only*
> by barcodes.

It's not. That, however, is perhaps the simplest method and does not
require additional hardware. It might, however, require that a smartgun
modification be seperate from a "smartbow" modification. (ie, you can't
take your external smartgun link and slap it on your bow.)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 13
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 02:32:26 -0400
Alfredo B Alves wrote:

> <SNIP>
> > I'm sorry if you thought I was implying: I think it's not too much
> > of a
> > stretch to assume/decide/expect smartlinks to handle different types
> > of
> > arrowheads. At least, I don't see why it's a problem surmountable
> > *only*
> > by barcodes.
>
> It's not. That, however, is perhaps the simplest method and does not
> require additional hardware. It might, however, require that a smartgun
> modification be seperate from a "smartbow" modification. (ie, you can't
> take your external smartgun link and slap it on your bow.)
>

Well, I've shot a bow, but not in a while. Wouldn't all the arrows be of
about the same weight/design? I realize that exploding warheads would weigh
more, but wouldn't it be compensated somehow? Like, different shaft/tail
set up? Or else the shooter has to stop and say 'ok, this is an exploding
one. . .aim higher. . pull further. . .adjust like so . . ' and he has to
think this for every different type. . . much easier to learn one action
and change the arrows to fit the action, which would mean the smartlink
wouldn't need to be as complicated.


--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**
Message no. 14
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 03:17:39 EDT
In a message dated Sun, 23 Apr 2000 1:04:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Alfredo B Alves
<dghost@****.com> writes:

> > > you still have to adjust for the quarel being fired
>
> > You keep saying this as if a society where you can plug your brain
> > into
> > a computer and mentally invoke programs can't easily overcome it.
>
> A smartlink does not allow for what you are implying. You'll need more
> hardware. If you use Gurth's barcoding suggestion, the problem is solved.

Except that even that isn't enough. Perhaps if we all ask really nicely, Mike B. will
explain all the details here as we have done this already, and have plans on working it
into things as suggestion expansions on HHH as well as variations of such for submissions.

A lot of course, as Gurth indirectly pointed out, has to do with Hardware that is
involved. "Barcoding" for arrow recognition to the smartlink system is nice,
but is so incomplete. It would also have to depend upon the style of item coding, as well
as the connectivity issues involved with regards to how the hardware works overall.

Also, a "smartlink" is not a "mount" if it is built into something
from the very beginning. Also, I don't really personally care for the "mounts"
system that is somewhat introduced in CC as it was apparent that full consideration for
"Design" vs. "Customization" couldn't be taken into easy account.

Ken's system has a lot more possibility to it, even for bows ... but it is still far too
complex for the average game mechanic integration by comparison.

-Keith
Message no. 15
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 03:20:23 EDT
In a message dated Sun, 23 Apr 2000 2:18:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Alfredo B Alves
<dghost@****.com> writes:

> It's not. That, however, is perhaps the simplest method and does not
> require additional hardware.

Actually, yes it would.

>It might, however, require that a smartgun
> modification be seperate from a "smartbow" modification. (ie, you can't
> take your external smartgun link and slap it on your bow.)

Now *THIS* is perhaps the best thing I've seen of so far. Alfredo, Diedre (sp?) anyone???
Ideas for how this would be worked as a simple "gear mechanic"? Cost, FCU,
etc....

-Keith
Message no. 16
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 03:22:06 -0400
Deird're started:
> > by barcodes.
> >
> > It's not. That, however, is perhaps the simplest method and does not
> > require additional hardware. It might, however, require that a smartgun
> > modification be seperate from a "smartbow" modification. (ie, you
can't
> > take your external smartgun link and slap it on your bow.)
> >
>
> Well, I've shot a bow, but not in a while. Wouldn't all the arrows be of
> about the same weight/design? I realize that exploding warheads
> would weigh
> more, but wouldn't it be compensated somehow? Like, different shaft/tail
> set up? Or else the shooter has to stop and say 'ok, this is an exploding
> one. . .aim higher. . pull further. . .adjust like so . . ' and he has to
> think this for every different type. . . much easier to learn one action
> and change the arrows to fit the action, which would mean the smartlink
> wouldn't need to be as complicated.

Actually D has a great idea here. The arrows could have a cylindrical bar
code and when it is pulled back a scanner reads the code and automatically
sets the smartlink 2 data. What a great damn idea.

:)

Smilin' Jack

Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 17
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 02:25:54 -0700
HHackerH@***.com wrote:
>
> Now *THIS* is perhaps the best thing I've seen of so far. Alfredo, Diedre
> (sp?) anyone??? Ideas for how this would be worked as a simple "gear
> mechanic"? Cost, FCU, etc....

I seem to have misplaced my copy of the CC, but I think it's a splendid
comment. I don't want to imagine how clunky a bow would look with a
firearm external smartlink attached. :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 18
From: Airwisp@***.com Airwisp@***.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:07:38 EDT
In a message dated 4/22/2000 2:09:01 PM , dghost@****.com writes:

> On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:28:07 EDT Airwisp@***.com writes:
> <SNIP>
> > Using a slight adaption of the rules for Smartlink II's, you can
> > consider a
> > bow to be a indirect-fire weapon, similar to a grenade gun or the
> > like. You
> > would need to install a rangefinder onto the bow mount also so that
> > the
> > smartlink processor can receive information as to the distance to
> > the target.
>
> 1) This does not fix the problems I mentioned in my previous post.
> 2) I thought bows only had one mount. (IOW, they can't mount a smartgun
> link AND a rangefinder.)
>
> IMO, Gurth's post is the best "fix".
>
> --
> D. Ghost

Ya know, it may be only one mount, but then again, something few people have
talked about on the list has been the one thing overlooked for a long time.
Something called Integrated Components.

Another question to the list in general, is there anyone out there with a
player character who uses a bow as their primary weapon? Archer is mine, and
can be found on HHH.

K pointed out to me that the difficulty I have with this thread is that I
have a pc who uses a bow constantly, in addition to my own experience in
archery too.

-Mike
Message no. 19
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 08:21:33 -0500
From: HHackerH@***.com
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 2:18 AM

> Also, I don't really
> personally care for the "mounts" system that is somewhat
> introduced in CC as it was apparent that full consideration for
> "Design" vs. "Customization" couldn't be taken into easy account.

Smartlinks for bows have been "mounts" since the SSC, K. And the mounts
made use of in the gun design system have been there all along, too. I'm
really not quite seeing what the problem is here...but it's early yet, so
it's possible those neurons just aren't firing yet.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go make up some stuff for a Matrix run
on Lone Star that's going to fail horribly...well, once I have some caffeine
and get my heart beating, at any rate.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 20
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 10:18:58 -0500
On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 03:22:06 -0400 "Mike & Linda Frankl"
<mlfrankl@***.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Actually D has a great idea here. The arrows could have a
> cylindrical bar
> code and when it is pulled back a scanner reads the code and
> automatically
> sets the smartlink 2 data. What a great damn idea.

Actually, it's Gurth's idea. Hmmm. However, I wonder... do you have to
barcode that this is arrow type yada or can barcode the properties of the
arrow? That way, you can make your own arrows, you just need to know the
format of the barcode.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 21
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 10:14:44 -0500
On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 03:20:23 EDT HHackerH@***.com writes:
> In a message dated Sun, 23 Apr 2000 2:18:15 AM Eastern Daylight
> Time, Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com> writes:
> > It's not. That, however, is perhaps the simplest method and does
> > not
> > require additional hardware.

> Actually, yes it would.
<SNIP>

It may need an expansion on it's specifically stated functionality but,
"there is no additional equipment to buy". In order to mentally choose
which arrow is being fired, you need:
1) a display link;
2) a transducer (I think);
3) a database of arrow types and qualities;
4) a datajack if the database is internal and needs to be updated;
5) router links between the above and the smartlink;
What does that add up to? too much Essence and money! :P~

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.


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Message no. 22
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 10:08:17 -0500
On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 02:32:26 -0400 "NaCl(aq)"
<jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu> writes:
<SNIP>
> Well, I've shot a bow, but not in a while. Wouldn't all the arrows
> be of
> about the same weight/design? I realize that exploding warheads
> would weigh
> more, but wouldn't it be compensated somehow? Like, different
> shaft/tail
> set up? Or else the shooter has to stop and say 'ok, this is an
> exploding
> one. . .aim higher. . pull further. . .adjust like so . . ' and he
> has to
> think this for every different type. . . much easier to learn one
> action
> and change the arrows to fit the action, which would mean the
> smartlink
> wouldn't need to be as complicated.

1) You have to compensate for each type of arrow.
2) You have to compensate for wheather conditions (arrows are more affect
by wind than bullets.).
3) Fletching and shaft changes can't compensate for eveerything (such as
arrowheads with disgusting aerodynamics).

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 23
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 10:04:00 -0500
On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:07:38 EDT Airwisp@***.com writes:
<SNIP>
> Ya know, it may be only one mount, but then again, something few
> people have
> talked about on the list has been the one thing overlooked for a
> long time.
> Something called Integrated Components.

The problem is that bows bend. Electronic components generally don't. :)
Yes, bows bend differently at different parts of the bow, but (especially
with high pull bows), integrating smartlink components into the grip
would create too much stress in the grip. A better bet would be to allow
for a second accessory mount. The first is set up for systems that need a
top mount on a firearm (ie, imaging scopes). The second would be out of
the way for other systems like a smartgun link. (You might want to
restrict which accessories can go where or even which can be mounted at
all ... unless you WANT a crossbow with an underbarrel grenade launcher
...)

> Another question to the list in general, is there anyone out there
> with a
> player character who uses a bow as their primary weapon? Archer is
> mine, and
> can be found on HHH.

Yes. I had one, but not anymore.

> K pointed out to me that the difficulty I have with this thread is
> that I
> have a pc who uses a bow constantly, in addition to my own
> experience in
> archery too.

I've done a bit of archery myself and have been talking lately (not about
this)with someone with much archery experience. (I think he even makes
his own arrows.)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 24
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 20:23:54 +0200
According to Alfredo B Alves, at 10:18 on 23 Apr 00, the word on the
street was...

> Actually, it's Gurth's idea.

Actually, now I think about it, the idea is only a variation on the "How
does a smartlink recognize the type of ammo in a firearm?" thread that
occasionally appears on the list.

> Hmmm. However, I wonder... do you have to barcode that this is arrow
> type yada or can barcode the properties of the arrow? That way, you can
> make your own arrows, you just need to know the format of the barcode.

Depends on how much information you'd need to input into the smartlink,
and how much you can store in a barcode. Looking at barcodes on everyday
products, it looks like those can store about 10 digits in the space of a
few centimeters; I don't think you can make a barcode on an arrow much
longer, because then you'd have to run a large part of the arrow long the
smartlink before you can shoot. OTOH, you could do that when drawing the
bowstring back, but there is still a limit. Because there will likely be a
lot of factors involved, it's probably easiest to pre-program arrow types
into the smartlink and only use the barcode for identification of the
arrow type, not of its ballistic properties.

(A nice way of messing with the players when they fumble on a Projectile
Weapons test, would be to have the smartlink give its "I couldn't read
that barcode, please try again" beep :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: Chronos chronos@*********.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:39:42 -0500
Not to go and blow the whole party or anything but...

Are you sure that ammo types need to be Barcoded for Smartlink recognition?

Here is a snipit of an article I was reading, and perhaps there are other,
more futuristic ways of determing ammo types within a gun.

"The basic idea is that an electronic device that produces random static
noise may be affected by an observer if that static noise is based on the
state of subatomic particles. This interaction of the user with the device
can be measured and used as a form of input. An interesting aspect of
quantum physics is that when a subatomic particle is observed its state
changes (its wave function collapses), and the new state that it assumes
cannot be predicted. Various theories exist as to why a particle assumes
whatever state it does when its wave function collapses. One theory is that
the observer is somehow interacting with the particle, causing it to assume
its new state. Researchers at Princeton's Engineering Anomalies Research
(PEAR) lab have amassed statistically significant data that says that an
observer affects the new state of the observed particles. In some way, our
mind interacts with these particles, and this interaction can be measured.
IBM wants to use this measurement to create a new type of input device that
basically reads your mind, no wires attached. IBMs Patent
(www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05830064__), PEARs Website
(www.princeton.edu/~pear). Incidentally, the inventors of this patent are a
who's-who of the members of PEAR. Particularly Jahn and Dunne."

Although this article deals with Human Brains interracting with particles,
who says that these particles cannot interact with one another, and their
patterns measured and calculated depending upon what types of materials
interfaced with it?


-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Gurth
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 1:24 PM
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: Re: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)


According to Alfredo B Alves, at 10:18 on 23 Apr 00, the word on the
street was...

> Actually, it's Gurth's idea.

Actually, now I think about it, the idea is only a variation on the "How
does a smartlink recognize the type of ammo in a firearm?" thread that
occasionally appears on the list.

> Hmmm. However, I wonder... do you have to barcode that this is arrow
> type yada or can barcode the properties of the arrow? That way, you can
> make your own arrows, you just need to know the format of the barcode.

Depends on how much information you'd need to input into the smartlink,
and how much you can store in a barcode. Looking at barcodes on everyday
products, it looks like those can store about 10 digits in the space of a
few centimeters; I don't think you can make a barcode on an arrow much
longer, because then you'd have to run a large part of the arrow long the
smartlink before you can shoot. OTOH, you could do that when drawing the
bowstring back, but there is still a limit. Because there will likely be a
lot of factors involved, it's probably easiest to pre-program arrow types
into the smartlink and only use the barcode for identification of the
arrow type, not of its ballistic properties.

(A nice way of messing with the players when they fumble on a Projectile
Weapons test, would be to have the smartlink give its "I couldn't read
that barcode, please try again" beep :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 12:20:57 -0500
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>

:> > you still have to adjust for the quarel being fired
:
:> You keep saying this as if a society where you can plug your brain
:> into
:> a computer and mentally invoke programs can't easily overcome it.
:
:A smartlink does not allow for what you are implying. You'll need more
:hardware. If you use Gurth's barcoding suggestion, the problem is solved.

Its not really "more" hardware, because a gun would have to do the same
thing. Barcoding would not be needed, IMO. You'd need to testfire any
roungs / arrows you wanted to use and calibrate the link for them (both for
guns and projectile weapons), but thereafter you could just select that type
from a menu as part of the loading procedure.

Mongoose

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Message no. 27
From: Airwisp@***.com Airwisp@***.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 18:01:08 EDT
In a message dated 4/23/2000 10:03:31 AM , dghost@****.com writes:

> On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 03:20:23 EDT HHackerH@***.com writes:
> > In a message dated Sun, 23 Apr 2000 2:18:15 AM Eastern Daylight
> > Time, Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com> writes:
> > > It's not. That, however, is perhaps the simplest method and does
> > > not
> > > require additional hardware.
>
> > Actually, yes it would.
> <SNIP>
>
> It may need an expansion on it's specifically stated functionality but,
> "there is no additional equipment to buy". In order to mentally choose
> which arrow is being fired, you need:
> 1) a display link;
> 2) a transducer (I think);
> 3) a database of arrow types and qualities;
> 4) a datajack if the database is internal and needs to be updated;
> 5) router links between the above and the smartlink;
> What does that add up to? too much Essence and money! :P~

Or, you could simply do the following ...

1) a wrist computer with 2 I/O ports on it.
2) individual must have a datajack, and a display link
3) the arrows you want in your quiver at the time, and the quiver is also
where the wrist computer is located.

First, program into the wrist computer (placed whereever) with the location
of each arrow within the quiver.

Second, the quiver has a modification to it that as arrows are pulled there
'slot' has a 'empty' icon. This is just as with modern day fighter aircraft
with keeping the pilot(s) reminded of what their onboard arsenal is at all
times.

As for costs, yes, it is expensive.

An archer will, in the long run, have far more expenses than the normal
street sammie.

The above system is expensive but you only need to buy it once.

As for it being essence costly, not really, no more so than a lot of other
things.

To tell the truth, there are several reasons I play a archer in the games
here.
1) Something about having an arrow pointed at me scares me even more than
having a gun pointed at me.

2) You can 'do' things to an arrow to make it do other things. Anyone
consider doing the same thing I did and making some vehicle-category drone
arrows?

3) In addition to being a 'sniper' type threat an archer is also capable of
being long-range artillery too.

4) Heavier arrows will have a shorter range. I have not figured out any
house rules for it yet, but I will in time.

-Mike
Message no. 28
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:29:11 GMT
>To tell the truth, there are several reasons I play a archer in the games
>here.
>1) Something about having an arrow pointed at me scares me even more than
>having a gun pointed at me.
>
>2) You can 'do' things to an arrow to make it do other things. Anyone
>consider doing the same thing I did and making some vehicle-category drone
>arrows?
>
>3) In addition to being a 'sniper' type threat an archer is also capable
>of
>being long-range artillery too.
>
>4) Heavier arrows will have a shorter range. I have not figured out any
>house rules for it yet, but I will in time.
>
>-Mike
>

5) Bows have a legality of 5-D "honestly officer I was on my way to a
medieval fancy dress party - you think I want to be seen carrying this down
the street".

Phil

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Message no. 29
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 00:07:13 EDT
In a message dated 4/23/00 10:03:31 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.com writes:

> It may need an expansion on it's specifically stated functionality but,
> "there is no additional equipment to buy". In order to mentally choose
> which arrow is being fired, you need:
> 1) a display link;

Only if the fact that Display Link is included in the Smartlink Currently at
a rudimentary level.

> 2) a transducer (I think);

I don't see why this would be required at all. It's not a matter of
requiring any kind of mental communication between the person and the
bow/arrow beyond the Smartlink system.

> 3) a database of arrow types and qualities;

Which yes, could be done and probably would need to be a basic requirement.

> 4) a datajack if the database is internal and needs to be updated;

This would entirely depend upon the database's location. I personally don't
agree that it needs to be in the person, but it might.

> 5) router links between the above and the smartlink;

Actually, no... the Datajack has enough "router ports" open to do this on
it's own, should this be required.

> What does that add up to? too much Essence and money! :P~

Less than 1.0 I think actually. MP/Memory would be the big question to this
one. Money would have to be figured out, and as I still have company and am
just taking a break from the evening ... don't really feel like looking it
all up.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 30
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:34:16 -0500
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 00:07:13 EDT HHackerH@***.com writes:
> In a message dated 4/23/00 10:03:31 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> dghost@****.com writes:
>
> > It may need an expansion on it's specifically stated functionality
> > but,
> > "there is no additional equipment to buy". In order to mentally
> > choose
> > which arrow is being fired, you need:
> > 1) a display link;

> Only if the fact that Display Link is included in the Smartlink
> Currently at
> a rudimentary level.

Hunh?

> > 2) a transducer (I think);

> I don't see why this would be required at all. It's not a matter of
> requiring any kind of mental communication between the person and
> the
> bow/arrow beyond the Smartlink system.

The transducer is required for selecting the arrow type from a menu as
Deidre suggested.

<SNIP>
> > 4) a datajack if the database is internal and needs to be
> updated;

> This would entirely depend upon the database's location. I
> personally don't
> agree that it needs to be in the person, but it might.

Uhm ... I said "If [it] is internal" ... I don't think it needs to be
internal, but someone might want to make it so.

> > 5) router links between the above and the smartlink;

> Actually, no... the Datajack has enough "router ports" open to do
> this on
> it's own, should this be required.

Uhm ... Smartlink, Display Link, Transducer, and Memory (database) that's
4 (1 more than the datajack has available). So you need a router.

> > What does that add up to? too much Essence and money! :P~

> Less than 1.0 I think actually. MP/Memory would be the big question
> to this
> one. Money would have to be figured out, and as I still have
> company and am
> just taking a break from the evening ... don't really feel like
> looking it
> all up.

Item Essence Cost
Smartlink I 0.5 2,500¥
Display Link 0.1 1,000¥
Transducer 0.1 2,000¥
Memory (Database) ? ?
Datajack 0.2 1,000¥
Router 0.05 1,000¥
3 Links 0.03 600¥
----------------------------------
Total 0.98 8,100¥
(Plus the cost of the database! That's nearly double the essence of a
firearm smartgun and over three times the price.)

Like I said, too much Essence and money! Now, if we go with Gurth's
suggestion, we don't have this problem. :P~

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 31
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:02:47 +0200
According to Sebastian Wiers, at 12:20 on 23 Apr 00, the word on the
street was...

> Its not really "more" hardware, because a gun would have to do the same
> thing. Barcoding would not be needed, IMO. You'd need to testfire any
> roungs / arrows you wanted to use and calibrate the link for them (both for
> guns and projectile weapons), but thereafter you could just select that type
> from a menu as part of the loading procedure.

That's why I suggested barcoding: to let the link determine the arrow type
without the user having to flip a switch or select an option from a menu.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:02:47 +0200
According to Chronos, at 13:39 on 23 Apr 00, the word on the street was...

> Not to go and blow the whole party or anything but...
>
> Are you sure that ammo types need to be Barcoded for Smartlink recognition?

No, I'm not; I have no idea how a smartlink would determine the type of
ammo in the weapon, nor do I really care. The barcoding of the cartridge
casings is one option that has been suggested on the list for the problem.

> Here is a snipit of an article I was reading, and perhaps there are other,
> more futuristic ways of determing ammo types within a gun.
[snip]

So you're saying that a smartlink is able to change the bullets in the
weapon to whatever it is you need by observing the bullets? You do realize
we're talking about Shadowrun, not Mage: The Ascension, right? :)

> Although this article deals with Human Brains interracting with
> particles, who says that these particles cannot interact with one
> another, and their patterns measured and calculated depending upon what
> types of materials interfaced with it?

I'm no quantum physicist, so I'm not going to say if it is or isn't
possible. However, it seems to me a highly impractical way of determining
what kind of bullet is in the weapon... Wouldn't this need something like
a particle accelerator?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 33
From: Airwisp@***.com Airwisp@***.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 08:36:11 EDT
In a message dated 4/23/2000 5:36:58 PM , phil_urbanhell@*******.com writes:

> 5) Bows have a legality of 5-D "honestly officer I was on my way to a
> medieval fancy dress party - you think I want to be seen carrying this
down
> the street".
>
> Phil

Great point, I had forgotten about that one ... :}

-Mike
Message no. 34
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:30:10 -0500
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:02:47 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
<SNIP>
> No, I'm not; I have no idea how a smartlink would determine the type
> of
> ammo in the weapon, nor do I really care. The barcoding of the
> cartridge
> casings is one option that has been suggested on the list for the
> problem.
<SNIP>

I don't think this is as important an issue as with arrows. With the
exception of a few ammo loads, I don't think the aerodynamics of the
bullet really affect its flight path significantly. (How many ammo loads
in SR alter the range?)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 35
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:21:25 +0200
According to Alfredo B Alves, at 9:30 on 24 Apr 00, the word on the street
was...

> I don't think this is as important an issue as with arrows. With the
> exception of a few ammo loads, I don't think the aerodynamics of the
> bullet really affect its flight path significantly. (How many ammo loads
> in SR alter the range?)

Not many that I know of. Still, it has been mentioned in some places that
a smartlink indicates to the firer which type of ammo in the weapon, so
for that, it would need to be important to somehow mark the rounds for the
system.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 36
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:23:36 +0100
In article <20000424.094204.-303763.0.dghost@****.com>, Alfredo B
Alves <dghost@****.com> writes
>I don't think this is as important an issue as with arrows. With the
>exception of a few ammo loads, I don't think the aerodynamics of the
>bullet really affect its flight path significantly. (How many ammo loads
>in SR alter the range?)

IRL, changing the weight and/or muzzle velocity of a bullet makes a big
difference.

Taking .308 Winchester as an example, just changing within a
manufacturer's product range (from a 180-grain softpoint to a 150-grain
boat-tailed FMJ) moves the point of impact upwards by over a foot at 300
yards' range.




--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 37
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:21:32 -0500
From: Gurth
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 12:21 PM

> Still, it has been mentioned in some places that a smartlink
> indicates to the firer which type of ammo in the weapon, so
> for that, it would need to be important to somehow mark the
> rounds for the system.

I guess I always thought that the ammo of 2050+ came with some sort of
micro-smart chip built into it whose only purpose on earth was to tell the
smartgun's electronics (even an external, which I always saw as having some
sort of small lead going into the clip or some such thing) "Hi, I'm a ____
caliber bullet with X grains of powder and this kind of head/bullet" (in
more technical terms, of course). The reading in the eye would look like:

180 grain frangible

or

150 grain mercury hot load

or something like that. Not knowing much about firearms beyond which end is
the business end, I never went further than this in my description.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 38
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:43:56 -0400
At 08:21 AM 4/25/00, Patrick Goodman wrote:
>From: Gurth
>Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 12:21 PM
>
> > Still, it has been mentioned in some places that a smartlink
> > indicates to the firer which type of ammo in the weapon, so
> > for that, it would need to be important to somehow mark the
> > rounds for the system.
>
>I guess I always thought that the ammo of 2050+ came with some sort of
>micro-smart chip built into it whose only purpose on earth was to tell the
>smartgun's electronics (even an external, which I always saw as having some
>sort of small lead going into the clip or some such thing) "Hi, I'm a ____
>caliber bullet with X grains of powder and this kind of head/bullet" (in
>more technical terms, of course). The reading in the eye would look like:
>
>180 grain frangible
>
>or
>
>150 grain mercury hot load
>
>or something like that. Not knowing much about firearms beyond which end is
>the business end, I never went further than this in my description.

Aren't you all going a little farther than you need to go on choosing ammo?
The smartlink (we'll stay with the cybernetic for now) has an interface
between the gun and the brain. In addition to choosing targets and giving
you bonuses to hit, you can cybernetically command it to eject a clip on a
free action. So the connection is two way between the SL on the gun and the
user's brain.

You're in the middle of a firefight and your clip runs dry. You send the
cybernetic command to eject the clip. Then you slam a new one home and
start firing again. So how does the SL know that you've switched from stun
to APDS rounds? Instead of worrying about barcodes or smartchips, why don't
you just tell the SL what it is? I assume that this is done in the same
Simple Action as inserting the clip (although a GM could make you spend a
Free), that when you insert the clip you also send the command inserting
"inserting APDS."

Remember that installing the SL takes some time to install. So what do you
do in that time? It only takes a few minutes to bolt the thing on, the rest
of the time is zeroing it out. I'd be really surprised if part of that
didn't mean adjusting the software so it recognizes the ballistics of
different rounds. It IS a ballistic computer after all.

So now we get to the smart bow, and how it works. You can't just slap the
SL onto the bow, you have to use the bow mount to adapt the bow already.
Not only does it give you the correct physical mounting point on the bow
for the SL, it also contains the correct algorithms to work correctly with
a bow and arrow. It also has fun little things like strain gauges to
measure how much pull is on the bowstring, and other such things. When you
install it, you fire a whole bunch of different arrows through it, teaching
it how to fire.

When you're ready to fire, you spend a Simple action to ready the weapon.
You embed in there a free action that covers the cybernetic command "I'm
not going to launch a concussion arrow." The adapter measures how much pull
you've put on the bow, computes the trajectory, and then spend another
SImple to shoot.

Does that cover it?

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 39
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:41:32 +0200
According to Patrick Goodman, at 7:21 on 25 Apr 00, the word on the street
was...

> I guess I always thought that the ammo of 2050+ came with some sort of
> micro-smart chip built into it whose only purpose on earth was to tell the
> smartgun's electronics (even an external, which I always saw as having some
> sort of small lead going into the clip or some such thing) "Hi, I'm a ____
> caliber bullet with X grains of powder and this kind of head/bullet" (in
> more technical terms, of course).

I tend to see it as a simpler thing: much like the color-coding of
military ammo today, so the firer can tell the difference between AP,
tracer, ball, etc. when loading the weapon. It need not be with a color;
perhaps it uses a barcode, or something else entirely, but whatever the
way it's done, the smartlink uses a sensor to determine the coding on the
bullet and checks it against its database to figure out what type of ammo
is being loaded into the chamber.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 40
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:41:32 +0200
According to Sommers, at 9:43 on 25 Apr 00, the word on the street was...

> You're in the middle of a firefight and your clip runs dry. You send the
> cybernetic command to eject the clip. Then you slam a new one home and
> start firing again. So how does the SL know that you've switched from stun
> to APDS rounds? Instead of worrying about barcodes or smartchips, why don't
> you just tell the SL what it is? I assume that this is done in the same
> Simple Action as inserting the clip (although a GM could make you spend a
> Free), that when you insert the clip you also send the command inserting
> "inserting APDS."

That hinges on the assumption that you know what you're loading. In the
middle of a firefight, IMHO you grab the first magazine your fingers come
across; you don't sit around sorting through all your clips to find the
type you want to load now (unless it's a special sitation, like _needing_
APDS to deal with the heavily-armored goons firing at you).

It seems more useful to me that the smartlink is the one telling you
what's in the weapon. Even better if it can tell you not just what's in
the clip, but what's in the chamber at the moment. That way, you instantly
know if you've got the right ammo to deal with the current potential
target.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 41
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:34:55 -0400
At 01:41 PM 4/25/00, Gurth wrote:
>According to Sommers, at 9:43 on 25 Apr 00, the word on the street was...
>
> > You're in the middle of a firefight and your clip runs dry. You send the
> > cybernetic command to eject the clip. Then you slam a new one home and
> > start firing again. So how does the SL know that you've switched from stun
> > to APDS rounds? Instead of worrying about barcodes or smartchips, why
> don't
> > you just tell the SL what it is? I assume that this is done in the same
> > Simple Action as inserting the clip (although a GM could make you spend a
> > Free), that when you insert the clip you also send the command inserting
> > "inserting APDS."
>
>That hinges on the assumption that you know what you're loading. In the
>middle of a firefight, IMHO you grab the first magazine your fingers come
>across; you don't sit around sorting through all your clips to find the
>type you want to load now (unless it's a special sitation, like _needing_
>APDS to deal with the heavily-armored goons firing at you).

I haven't done much firing lately, but I used to back at home. I always
knew what I was loading, because it was too dangerous otherwise. Granted, I
wasn't doing it in the middle of combat.

If you're going to grab the first clip available, you can just go for the
old standby of putting colored tape on the end of the magazine. Blue is
normal, red is APDS, green is stun, etc. There aren't too many character's
that I've seen played that take more than one or two kinds of ammo. You
could do it by placing a chip on the clip that gets read by the SL wiring,
but it just seems more complicated than it has to be for something that a
shooter should already know.

>It seems more useful to me that the smartlink is the one telling you
>what's in the weapon. Even better if it can tell you not just what's in
>the clip, but what's in the chamber at the moment. That way, you instantly
>know if you've got the right ammo to deal with the current potential
>target.

There already is an ability for the SL to tell you how many rounds you have
left, and display it on the display link. So it shouldn't be a problem to
also say what ammo you have in, no matter where it gets that information
from. There shouldn't be any problem with using the info that you already
gave it (I'm loading APDS now) to display what's in the clip. That won't
change as long as you don't change clips. As soon as the eject clip command
is given, it erases the load and is ready to input the next type.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 42
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:12:26 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/2000 12:40:50 PM , gurth@******.nl writes:

> I tend to see it as a simpler thing: much like the color-coding of
> military ammo today, so the firer can tell the difference between AP,
> tracer, ball, etc. when loading the weapon. It need not be with a color;
> perhaps it uses a barcode, or something else entirely, but whatever the
> way it's done, the smartlink uses a sensor to determine the coding on the
> bullet and checks it against its database to figure out what type of ammo
> is being loaded into the chamber.

Actually, I think Patrick's method would be easier due to potential
integration of tagant technologies (part of the nanotechnology field). They
are incredibly inexpensive and can be integrated into a vast number of
designs.

Including arrow-nocks and ammo grains at literally NO change in cost.

-K
Message no. 43
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:21:20 -0500
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:23:36 +0100 "Paul J. Adam"
<Paul@********.demon.co.uk> writes:
<SNIP>
> IRL, changing the weight and/or muzzle velocity of a bullet makes a
> big
> difference.
>
> Taking .308 Winchester as an example, just changing within a
> manufacturer's product range (from a 180-grain softpoint to a
> 150-grain
> boat-tailed FMJ) moves the point of impact upwards by over a foot at
> 300
> yards' range.

Yes, but that's less significant than changing an arrow's fletching or
the shape of its arrowhead.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 44
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:37:13 -0500
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:41:32 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
<SNIP>
> perhaps it uses a barcode, or something else entirely, but whatever
> the
> way it's done, the smartlink uses a sensor to determine the coding
> on the
> bullet and checks it against its database to figure out what type of
> ammo
> is being loaded into the chamber.

Why not put it in the clip? The main problem I see is what if the ammo
doesn't match the specifications in the clip or some decides to load
mixed ammo ...

Cop out answer:
All ammo loads have been standardized and regulated so that one ballistic
formula can be used per gun regardless of loaded ammo ... :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 45
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:54:09 -0500
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:43:56 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
writes:
<SNIP>
> Remember that installing the SL takes some time to install. So what
> do you
> do in that time? It only takes a few minutes to bolt the thing on,
> the rest
> of the time is zeroing it out. I'd be really surprised if part of
> that
> didn't mean adjusting the software so it recognizes the ballistics
> of
> different rounds. It IS a ballistic computer after all.
<SNIP>

No, the smartlink processor (in the cyberware and smartgoggles) is a
ballistic computer. The attachment to the gun, is a whole mess of input
devices.
I'd think that the smartlink processor has a hardwired database of
ballistic functions.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 46
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:48:39 -0400
At 11:54 PM 4/25/00, Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:43:56 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
>writes:
><SNIP>
> > Remember that installing the SL takes some time to install. So what
> > do you
> > do in that time? It only takes a few minutes to bolt the thing on,
> > the rest
> > of the time is zeroing it out. I'd be really surprised if part of
> > that
> > didn't mean adjusting the software so it recognizes the ballistics
> > of
> > different rounds. It IS a ballistic computer after all.
><SNIP>
>
>No, the smartlink processor (in the cyberware and smartgoggles) is a
>ballistic computer. The attachment to the gun, is a whole mess of input
>devices.
>I'd think that the smartlink processor has a hardwired database of
>ballistic functions.
>
>--
>D. Ghost
>Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
>- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

I kind of assumed the system together was used to zero it out. You really
can't adjust the SL on the gun without plugging it into your head or
wearing a pair of goggles. You need to know what's going on when its ready
to fire.

The database should have stuff like round types, bullet weights, powder
charges, etc that it can then use to figure out trajectories. All that I'm
saying is that you make a speed list of your favorite rounds.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 47
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:22:16 -0400
From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
> At 01:41 PM 4/25/00, Gurth wrote:
> >According to Sommers, at 9:43 on 25 Apr 00, the word on the street was...
> > > You're in the middle of a firefight and your clip runs dry. You send
the
> > > cybernetic command to eject the clip. Then you slam a new one home and
> > > start firing again. So how does the SL know that you've switched from
stun
> > > to APDS rounds? Instead of worrying about barcodes or smartchips, why
> > don't
> > > you just tell the SL what it is? I assume that this is done in the
same
> > > Simple Action as inserting the clip (although a GM could make you
spend a
> > > Free), that when you insert the clip you also send the command
inserting
> > > "inserting APDS."
> >
> >That hinges on the assumption that you know what you're loading. In the
> >middle of a firefight, IMHO you grab the first magazine your fingers come
> >across; you don't sit around sorting through all your clips to find the
> >type you want to load now (unless it's a special sitation, like _needing_
> >APDS to deal with the heavily-armored goons firing at you).
>
> I haven't done much firing lately, but I used to back at home. I always
> knew what I was loading, because it was too dangerous otherwise. Granted,
I
> wasn't doing it in the middle of combat.

I think that's the telling point; not in the middle of combat. You didn't
have 10 clips rattling around in a bag because they came free from their
straps when you fell off the roof four blocks back. You don't have to guess
them by touch since you can't see because someone dropped a CD gas cannister
and your damned eyes are tearing; besides, it's pitch black and the guy who
sold you the tape didn't bother to mention that it would all look the same
under thermo. You don't have to load the clip in 1/10th of a second lest the
corpcops realise you're out of ammo soon enough to spring out from their
cover and end your brief, eventful life.

> If you're going to grab the first clip available, you can just go for the
> old standby of putting colored tape on the end of the magazine. Blue is
> normal, red is APDS, green is stun, etc. There aren't too many character's
> that I've seen played that take more than one or two kinds of ammo. You
> could do it by placing a chip on the clip that gets read by the SL wiring,
> but it just seems more complicated than it has to be for something that a
> shooter should already know.

It is certainly possible to use tape, but in a hurry, the last thing you
want to do is fumble for clips. Still, the smartlink won't matter a damn for
that; by the time the clip's in the gun, if you've made a mistake, you might
be in trouble.

Chip? Why? Sure, they'd be pretty cheap in SR, but there's a decent chance
of fouling and shorting. And they're not the most durable things known to
man. I'll get back to this.

> >It seems more useful to me that the smartlink is the one telling you
> >what's in the weapon. Even better if it can tell you not just what's in
> >the clip, but what's in the chamber at the moment. That way, you
instantly
> >know if you've got the right ammo to deal with the current potential
> >target.
>
> There already is an ability for the SL to tell you how many rounds you
have
> left, and display it on the display link. So it shouldn't be a problem to
> also say what ammo you have in, no matter where it gets that information
> from. There shouldn't be any problem with using the info that you already
> gave it (I'm loading APDS now) to display what's in the clip. That won't
> change as long as you don't change clips. As soon as the eject clip
command
> is given, it erases the load and is ready to input the next type.

Yes, you could DNI the clip info, but why? And what happens if you've got
the wrong clip and don't realise it? Sure, you could use a chip, but why?
It's certain to cost more than 1/10 of a nuyen, and there's the fouling
contact and shorted chip problems I mentioned.

In the end, it comes down to this. Is there any reason you couldn't just do
what a million people have said and barcode the ammo, whether it be arrows
or bullets? They could be integrated into the manufacturing process of the
casing [or caseless powder], or with electrostatic plastic to keep it a
little more clean than otherwise, you could buy sheets of 1,000 or print
them off at home on the telcom for those reloaders out there.

In other words, you could do it some other way, but the least expensive,
most dependable way to do it is barcoding. Why do anything else?
Message no. 48
From: MCP MCP@********.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:33:01 -0700
At 11:22 AM 4/26/00 -0400, abortion_engine wrote:
>
>Yes, you could DNI the clip info, but why? And what happens if you've got
>the wrong clip and don't realise it? Sure, you could use a chip, but why?
>It's certain to cost more than 1/10 of a nuyen, and there's the fouling
>contact and shorted chip problems I mentioned.
>
There are contactless smart cards available currently, so I'd expect them to
still be available in the future. These might have problems in a high ECM
environment though.

>In the end, it comes down to this. Is there any reason you couldn't just do
>what a million people have said and barcode the ammo, whether it be arrows
>or bullets? They could be integrated into the manufacturing process of the
>casing [or caseless powder], or with electrostatic plastic to keep it a
>little more clean than otherwise, you could buy sheets of 1,000 or print
>them off at home on the telcom for those reloaders out there.
>
>In other words, you could do it some other way, but the least expensive,
>most dependable way to do it is barcoding. Why do anything else?
>
A problem with using stickers to barcode ammo is that the stickers would
tend to get scraped off as the bullet is cycled into and out of the
firing chamber - leading to gun jams.

The two most reliable options I can think of are barcoding the clip, or
painting the barcode (not using a sticker) on the ammo itself.

The first still has the problem that the information on the clip could
be incorrect, and the second introduces problems with reloading. I guess
there is no one perfect solution.

MCP
Message no. 49
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:35:54 -0400
At 11:22 AM 4/26/00, abortion_engine wrote:

<Snip lots of stuff>

>In the end, it comes down to this. Is there any reason you couldn't just do
>what a million people have said and barcode the ammo, whether it be arrows
>or bullets? They could be integrated into the manufacturing process of the
>casing [or caseless powder], or with electrostatic plastic to keep it a
>little more clean than otherwise, you could buy sheets of 1,000 or print
>them off at home on the telcom for those reloaders out there.
>
>In other words, you could do it some other way, but the least expensive,
>most dependable way to do it is barcoding. Why do anything else?

A lot of the same reasons that you mentioned about the chips getting
screwed up.

You're either going to put the barcode on the clip or the round. If you put
it on the clip, you're back to having to purchase stickers to put on each
of your clips, which seems about the same as putting the tape on them. You
also have to build the laser scanner that reads the code into the clip
receiver, adding the same electrical problems as the chip reader.

So instead you decide to put the codes on each bullet. Then you have the
problem of reading those codes. Do you put the scanner in the chamber?
Isn't that going to break the first time you fire a round, basically
causing a small explosion in the chamber? Even if you make it sturdy enough
so that it doesn't break, what happens after a few firings and you start to
accumulate spent powder in the chamber, which interferes with the scanner
reading the bar codes correctly?

If you factor in these problems, it seems just as expensive and
undependable as the chips. With the "select on the fly" that I detailed
earlier, less moving parts to worry about. You still have human error, but
not a lot more than any other system.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 50
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:27:07 -0400
From: "MCP" <MCP@********.com>
> At 11:22 AM 4/26/00 -0400, abortion_engine wrote:
> >Yes, you could DNI the clip info, but why? And what happens if you've got
> >the wrong clip and don't realise it? Sure, you could use a chip, but why?
> >It's certain to cost more than 1/10 of a nuyen, and there's the fouling
> >contact and shorted chip problems I mentioned.
> >
> There are contactless smart cards available currently, so I'd expect them
to
> still be available in the future. These might have problems in a high ECM
> environment though.

Yep. And they're bound to be more expensive - both in bullet and gun - then
a barcode and laser.

> >In the end, it comes down to this. Is there any reason you couldn't just
do
> >what a million people have said and barcode the ammo, whether it be
arrows
> >or bullets? They could be integrated into the manufacturing process of
the
> >casing [or caseless powder], or with electrostatic plastic to keep it a
> >little more clean than otherwise, you could buy sheets of 1,000 or print
> >them off at home on the telcom for those reloaders out there.
> >
> >In other words, you could do it some other way, but the least expensive,
> >most dependable way to do it is barcoding. Why do anything else?
> >
> A problem with using stickers to barcode ammo is that the stickers would
> tend to get scraped off as the bullet is cycled into and out of the
> firing chamber - leading to gun jams.

Actually, there are adhesives now that are *extremely* diffucult to remove,
that would work just fine; think of asset tags on office equipment. There's
one on the bottom of my desk, and I always play with it; it's never even
raised an edge I can play with. Granted, that's not a weapon cycling, but
erosion is powerful enough. Still, there are better solutions - for
industrial-built ammo, if not reloaders.

> The two most reliable options I can think of are barcoding the clip, or
> painting the barcode (not using a sticker) on the ammo itself.
>
> The first still has the problem that the information on the clip could
> be incorrect, and the second introduces problems with reloading. I guess
> there is no one perfect solution.

Forget barcoding the clip; you're very right there. But cera-coating the
casing with a barcode shouldn't be too difficult, and even simple [durable]
precision painting should do the trick. I keep thinking of it simply being
cast into the casing material, and of caseless rounds being made of two
slightly different powders, arranged in the barcode form.
Message no. 51
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:37:32 -0400
From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
> At 11:22 AM 4/26/00, abortion_engine wrote:
> >In other words, you could do it some other way, but the least expensive,
> >most dependable way to do it is barcoding. Why do anything else?
>
> A lot of the same reasons that you mentioned about the chips getting
> screwed up.
>
> You're either going to put the barcode on the clip or the round. If you
put
> it on the clip, you're back to having to purchase stickers to put on each
> of your clips, which seems about the same as putting the tape on them. You
> also have to build the laser scanner that reads the code into the clip
> receiver, adding the same electrical problems as the chip reader.

I'd put it on the round and tape the clips; no amount of fiddling [unless
you could "read" the clips with an induction pad] is going to make combat
clip-choice easier. That's what practice is for.

Yes, there's *some* electrical problems with putting a laser beam in the
gun, but no worse than the smartlink or a lasersight; it's putting anything
sensitive on ammo that worries me; I'm not terribly careful with clips, but
I'm pretty careful with where I dump my gun.

> So instead you decide to put the codes on each bullet. Then you have the
> problem of reading those codes. Do you put the scanner in the chamber?
> Isn't that going to break the first time you fire a round, basically
> causing a small explosion in the chamber? Even if you make it sturdy
enough
> so that it doesn't break, what happens after a few firings and you start
to
> accumulate spent powder in the chamber, which interferes with the scanner
> reading the bar codes correctly?

I think I'd put the scanner in the grip, shining through one of the holes in
the clip - you'd need to not have solid clips for this, mind you, but no one
said smartlinking a weapon was cheap. That way you're nowhere near the
chamber. That's just off the top of my head; I'm certain someone could find
a better location.

> If you factor in these problems, it seems just as expensive and
> undependable as the chips. With the "select on the fly" that I detailed
> earlier, less moving parts to worry about. You still have human error, but
> not a lot more than any other system.

A chip on the clip or on the rounds - since chipping the clips still leaves
a good possibility for stupid peoples' errors - would mean a new chip
everytime you bought a clip. With a laser in the gun, it's simply part of
the cost of smartlinking. What do you think your +100% base is for? ;)

The problem, I suppose, that I have with "select on the fly" is that there's
enough going on in a gunfight for me to deal with; the last thing I want is
to have to tell the gun what ammo I'm loading. I'd prefer it to already
know. After all, what's the point of all this automation - like the "rounds
remaining" indicator - if you have to tell the gun everything. "Six rounds
left, gun, and I'm using APDS, and there's a 32 knot southwesterly wind 20
yards downrange. Geez, I wish I'd gone with the AE Corporation's automatic
smartlink." :)

A smartlink's job isn't just to target; it only does that slightly better
than a lasersight. It's job is to let you point and shoot while it takes
care of the meaningless details, like what ammo you have and how many rounds
are left. Less sweat for you while you're trying to stay alive. That's my
thought, at least.
Message no. 52
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:13:40 +0100
In article <20000425.225415.-1619429.1.dghost@****.com>, Alfredo B
Alves <dghost@****.com> writes
>On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:23:36 +0100 "Paul J. Adam"
><Paul@********.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> Taking .308 Winchester as an example, just changing within a
>> manufacturer's product range (from a 180-grain softpoint to a
>> 150-grain
>> boat-tailed FMJ) moves the point of impact upwards by over a foot at
>> 300
>> yards' range.
>
>Yes, but that's less significant than changing an arrow's fletching or
>the shape of its arrowhead.

Point is, changing bullet type within the same calibre from the same
weapon is easily enough to turn a 'hit' into a 'miss', yet smartguns seem to
cope.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 53
From: Jonathan Hurley silvercat@***********.org
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:57:00 -0400
Um, use "barcode" in a generic sense as a machine-readable information
block. Me, I'd etch it into the case, and backfill with a high-contrast (to
the case) material. do it as a ring around the base of the case. And yes,
this might cause problems with reloading - unless the home reloader bought
"blank" cases and used the nifty little barcoder that came as part of his
reloading stand, along with the ballistic programming package. He has to
make sure he reloads it with the same powder charge and bullet as he first
put in it, but what the hell? That's not so difficult, and it's not like
casing is that expensive.

As for caseless, make it a combustible substrate that was inserted in the
propellant block at time of manufacture. Or dye the propellant, and issue a
warning concerning wear. There's many ways, and a saying about Necessity's
children.
Message no. 54
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:32:57 +0200
According to MCP, at 8:33 on 26 Apr 00, the word on the street was...

> The two most reliable options I can think of are barcoding the clip, or
> painting the barcode (not using a sticker) on the ammo itself.
>
> The first still has the problem that the information on the clip could
> be incorrect, and the second introduces problems with reloading. I guess
> there is no one perfect solution.

So code the bullet, not the cartridge case. Color-coded bullets should
provide enough information, IMHO, especially if you can adjust the actual
parameters that go with each code in the smartlink hardware. That way,
you're not dependent on the manufacturer's settings, so you can reload as
much as you like.

Or are you telling me you salvage the bullets, too? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 55
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:52:43 -0600
Jonathan Hurley wrote:
>Um, use "barcode" in a generic sense as a machine-readable information
>block. Me, I'd etch it into the case, and backfill with a high-contrast (to
>the case) material. do it as a ring around the base of the case. And yes,
>this might cause problems with reloading - unless the home reloader bought
>"blank" cases and used the nifty little barcoder that came as part of his
>reloading stand, along with the ballistic programming package. He has to
>make sure he reloads it with the same powder charge and bullet as he first
>put in it, but what the hell? That's not so difficult, and it's not like
>casing is that expensive.

Or, you buy casings in bar code sets, and then tell the smartgun software
the bullet information associated with a bar code.

For example, cases might be sold in 10 barcode sets (1, 2, 3, etc.). If
you buy 100 casings of set 1, they each have the same barcode already
imprinted on them. (I don't know the first thing about bullets, so the
rest is all completely off the top of my head). You load the set 1 casings
with full metal jacketed rounds and x grams of type y powder. Then you
load that information into the smartgun. If you save all the casings, and
at a later date load them with flechete rounds with n grams of z powder,
you just update the data in the smartgun software so that it can figure out
the balistics trajectories for those rounds when it sees a barcode type 1
casing is loaded in the weapon.

And you don't have to put the barcode/whatever reader in the gun. You
could put it in the magazine, which would then tell the smartgun link what
the next bullet is.

Or, you could take that further and discard the entire barcode scanner
concept and just have a small memory chip in the magazine. After you load
a magazine you hook it up to your palm computer and load the round
information into magazine's memory. Then when the magazine is loaded into
the gun the smartgun interrogates the magazine to find out how many rounds
it has and what type of ammo is in it.

I'm sure there are many more ways to skin this cat.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"What you are doing at the moment must be exactly what
you are doing at the moment--and nothing else."
Message no. 56
From: Mark Imbriaco mark.imbriaco@*****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:19:56 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, abortion_engine wrote:

> In other words, you could do it some other way, but the least expensive,
> most dependable way to do it is barcoding. Why do anything else?

As far as that goes, just put the APEX in the pouch on the right and the
standard rounds in the pouch on the left. No need to overcomplicate
things even more. :-)

-Mark
Message no. 57
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:50:25 -0500
On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:35:54 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
writes:
<SNIP>
> So instead you decide to put the codes on each bullet. Then you have
> the
> problem of reading those codes. Do you put the scanner in the
> chamber?
> Isn't that going to break the first time you fire a round, basically
<SNIP>

What about barcoding the bullets and reading it while it's still in the
clip?

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 58
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:13:06 +0200
According to Mark Imbriaco, at 14:19 on 26 Apr 00, the word on the street
was...

> As far as that goes, just put the APEX in the pouch on the right and the
> standard rounds in the pouch on the left. No need to overcomplicate
> things even more. :-)

Which is basically the same as putting colored tape onto the mags. Fine if
you have the time to stop and think about (or look at) it, but if you're
grabbing something in a hurry...?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 59
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 02:12:32 -0700
Gurth wrote:
>
> Which is basically the same as putting colored tape onto the mags. Fine if
> you have the time to stop and think about (or look at) it, but if you're
> grabbing something in a hurry...?

Much easier. You'd be surprised at what the human mind (and thus
body)will do in high-stress, rapid-reaction situations.

Not everyone's the same, of course, but I think if you're in a situation
where it *matters* whether you grab the APEX or the standard (with the
right/left arrangement), then you'll probably be able to go for the
right one.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 60
From: Airwisp@***.com Airwisp@***.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 05:21:16 EDT
In a message dated 4/26/2000 10:36:18 AM , sommers@*****.umich.edu writes:

> <Snip lots of stuff>
>
> >In the end, it comes down to this. Is there any reason you couldn't just
do
> >what a million people have said and barcode the ammo, whether it be arrows
> >or bullets? They could be integrated into the manufacturing process of the
> >casing [or caseless powder], or with electrostatic plastic to keep it a
> >little more clean than otherwise, you could buy sheets of 1,000 or print
> >them off at home on the telcom for those reloaders out there.
> >
> >In other words, you could do it some other way, but the least expensive,
> >most dependable way to do it is barcoding. Why do anything else?
>
> A lot of the same reasons that you mentioned about the chips getting
> screwed up.
>
> You're either going to put the barcode on the clip or the round. If you
put
> it on the clip, you're back to having to purchase stickers to put on each
> of your clips, which seems about the same as putting the tape on them. You
> also have to build the laser scanner that reads the code into the clip
> receiver, adding the same electrical problems as the chip reader.
>
> So instead you decide to put the codes on each bullet. Then you have the
> problem of reading those codes. Do you put the scanner in the chamber?
> Isn't that going to break the first time you fire a round, basically
> causing a small explosion in the chamber? Even if you make it sturdy
enough
> so that it doesn't break, what happens after a few firings and you start
to
> accumulate spent powder in the chamber, which interferes with the scanner
> reading the bar codes correctly?
>
> If you factor in these problems, it seems just as expensive and
> undependable as the chips. With the "select on the fly" that I detailed
> earlier, less moving parts to worry about. You still have human error, but
> not a lot more than any other system.

Okay, after some thinking, if you wanted to instal a barcode on the arrow,
that's easy. The only difficulty comes in when the optical lens necessary to
read the barcode is covered (dirty, etc) and is unable to read the barcode.

The other option is to consider the arrow to be a Body 0 drone (take the cost
of the arrow and divide by 10, round up to nearest whole number to determine
the design point cost). Then calculate the cost for the arrow by installing
a remote control interface. This is not for the sheer ability to control the
arrow in midflight, but more for the purpose of having a short-range radio
signal that tells the bow what kind of arrow it is.

For those who would want to do far more with their archer in the game,
consider taking the same arrow with a remote control interface and attach
rigger adaption onto it. You may not be able to perform complex maneuvering,
but *acceptable* course corrections can be made along the way to the target.

-Mike
Message no. 61
From: Mark Imbriaco mark.imbriaco@*****.com
Subject: Smartlinked Bows (Was: Ambidexterity Question)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:06:32 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Gurth wrote:

> According to Mark Imbriaco, at 14:19 on 26 Apr 00, the word on the street
> was...
>
> > As far as that goes, just put the APEX in the pouch on the right and the
> > standard rounds in the pouch on the left. No need to overcomplicate
> > things even more. :-)
>
> Which is basically the same as putting colored tape onto the mags. Fine if
> you have the time to stop and think about (or look at) it, but if you're
> grabbing something in a hurry...?

Not at all. You have to look down to see what color tape is on the
magazine. You can discern (at least I hope you can :-) ) left from right
without even looking down. Just reach into that pocket and grab a
magazine, knowing that it's APEX. I do the same thing with different
colored paintballs. :-)

-Mark

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