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Message no. 1
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 01:09:32 +1000
dont SMGs and Hvy pistols fire the same type of ammo? like about 9mm? why is
the damage for the smgs a fair whack (like 50%) lower than that for the heavy
pistols?

also, i remember a post a while back where someone put up the stats for a 50
cal mg, as they were of the opinion that the hvy mgs in SR were only 7.62
(Ivy it may have been). I read somewhere (the short story in elven fire i
think) that the ranger arms was .665 or thereabouts calibre, and it only
does 14S. The 50 cal mg that was posted did about that if i remember, and
the difference in calibre is about as much as between a 22 and a 357.

Damion
Message no. 2
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 11:45:10 -0400
On Thu, 16 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> dont SMGs and Hvy pistols fire the same type of ammo? like about 9mm? why is
> the damage for the smgs a fair whack (like 50%) lower than that for the heavy
> pistols?
>
> also, i remember a post a while back where someone put up the stats for a 50
> cal mg, as they were of the opinion that the hvy mgs in SR were only 7.62
> (Ivy it may have been). I read somewhere (the short story in elven fire i
> think) that the ranger arms was .665 or thereabouts calibre, and it only
> does 14S. The 50 cal mg that was posted did about that if i remember, and
> the difference in calibre is about as much as between a 22 and a 357.
>
> Damion
>
The way I gather, light pistols are the 9mm and smaller variety. Stuff
like Berettas that have lots of ammo, but are a tad short on stopping
power. I see heavy pistols as .44 and larger. The Ares Predator is just
a monster of a gun. It looks huge and impressive because it is. In my
game, it is a 14mm round, like the old Tokarev.

Marc
Message no. 3
From: Matthew McCormick <mcormick@*****.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 13:08:38 -0700
In my campaign, light pistols are in the 9mm. .380 range with
heavy pistols filling the 10,11,12mm and up range. SMG's fit within the
light pistol category for caliber.

The Grand Poobah!
Students for War & Oppression
@@@@ @ @ @@@@ Counter productive, highly destructive!
@ @ @@ @ @ @ ---
@@@@ @ @@ @ @ @ Celebrating the occurences of War &
@ @ @@ @ @ @ Oppression since the dawn of time
@@@@ @@@@ @@@@ -- Even the planets were born in turmoil... --
Message no. 4
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 14:37:04 -0700
On Thu, 16 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> dont SMGs and Hvy pistols fire the same type of ammo? like about 9mm? why is
> the damage for the smgs a fair whack (like 50%) lower than that for the heavy
> pistols?

Not true. SMG's and _Light_ pistols share common ammo. I don't think
you'd get too many people to agree that a 9 mm is a "heavy" round. A
"Heavy
Pistol" would be like .357/.41/.44/.45 Magnum, and I haven't heard of too
many SMGs firing these rounds, generally because the bolt is too light.

> also, i remember a post a while back where someone put up the stats for a 50
> cal mg, as they were of the opinion that the hvy mgs in SR were only 7.62
> (Ivy it may have been). I read somewhere (the short story in elven fire i
> think) that the ranger arms was .665 or thereabouts calibre, and it only
> does 14S. The 50 cal mg that was posted did about that if i remember, and
> the difference in calibre is about as much as between a 22 and a 357.

I'd have to agree with Ivy; the current Barret fires a .50 cal round in
the high 600 grains that is actually lighter than the equivalent M2 (.50
HMG) round, so an HMG would do *at least* the damage of a Barret (maybe
not APDS though, 'cuz that gets expensive).
This has been mentioned before, but it is highly unlikely the
Ranger Arms rifle is a .665, more like a .303 Winchester Magnum (or the
equivalent. The Boys Antitank rifle is .55, and it's recoil is so
prohibitive even with the muzzle brake that most of the troopers
issued it didn't fire the thing. For terminal effect on the target it is
generally more efficient to increase velocity rather than mass of the
round (in fact, this was the genesis of the magnum concept) due to the
v^2 term for kinetic energy, so rifle rounds typically have smaller
diameters and more propellant than pistol rounds.
Also note that the difference between a .22 and a .357 (actually
.38) is *larger* than the difference between a .50 and the hypothetical
.665. The .357 has 1/3 greater diameter than the .22, while the .665 has
only about 1/6 greater diameter than the .50. Since area goes as d^2,
you can see that the effect is much less at the larger calibers.

> Damion

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 5
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 20:08:34 -0400
>>>>> "Adam" == Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
writes:

Adam> Not true. SMG's and _Light_ pistols share common ammo.

Not true. In fact, the US FBI just finished a deal with H&K to chamber the
MP-5 for 10mm.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "Drop a chicken!" --Xuxa
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
Message no. 6
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 11:23:30 +1000
Adam writes:

> Not true. SMG's and _Light_ pistols share common ammo. I don't think
> you'd get too many people to agree that a 9 mm is a "heavy" round. A
"Heavy
> Pistol" would be like .357/.41/.44/.45 Magnum, and I haven't heard of too
> many SMGs firing these rounds, generally because the bolt is too light.

OK, just shows my ignorance :-) but what ammo does the ingram mac 10 use? I
though it was something pretty big.

> This has been mentioned before, but it is highly unlikely the
> Ranger Arms rifle is a .665, more like a .303 Winchester Magnum (or the
> equivalent. The Boys Antitank rifle is .55, and it's recoil is so
> prohibitive even with the muzzle brake that most of the troopers
> issued it didn't fire the thing. For terminal effect on the target it is
> generally more efficient to increase velocity rather than mass of the
> round (in fact, this was the genesis of the magnum concept) due to the
> v^2 term for kinetic energy, so rifle rounds typically have smaller
> diameters and more propellant than pistol rounds.

My friends favourite rifle is the 460 wetherby magnum (I think thats it -
correct me if I'm wrong), thats pretty huge, i'd compare it to a ranger arms
perhaps.

> Also note that the difference between a .22 and a .357 (actually
> .38) is *larger* than the difference between a .50 and the hypothetical
> .665. The .357 has 1/3 greater diameter than the .22, while the .665 has
> only about 1/6 greater diameter than the .50. Since area goes as d^2,
> you can see that the effect is much less at the larger calibers.

OK that sounds good, I see. Ignorant me didn't think of that aspect of it.

Damion
Message no. 7
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 11:43:24 +1000
Rat writes:

> Adam> Not true. SMG's and _Light_ pistols share common ammo.
>
> Not true. In fact, the US FBI just finished a deal with H&K to chamber the
> MP-5 for 10mm.

so a submachinegun with a base damage of 9M? And I thought the salvetti
guardian at burst fire was nasty :-)

Damion
Message no. 8
From: Schnood <cdjworks@******.DIGEX.NET>
Subject: Re: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 11:54:07 -0400
>OK, just shows my ignorance :-) but what ammo does the ingram mac 10
>use? I though it was something pretty big.

I believe that the Mac 11 uses 9mm and the Mac 12 uses .45. I'm not sure
though... I can't find my book on firearms right now... :(
Message no. 9
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 16:59:09 +0100
>
> >OK, just shows my ignorance :-) but what ammo does the ingram mac 10
> >use? I though it was something pretty big.
>
> I believe that the Mac 11 uses 9mm and the Mac 12 uses .45. I'm not sure
> though... I can't find my book on firearms right now... :(
>
Far as i know the Mac 10 is in .45 and the 11 in 9mm and .380

And if you use a MAC10 , put a suppressor on it, cos
1) otherwise the centre of gravity is behind the recoil,
allowing it to climb wildly
2). 45 ACP is subsonic, so without the muzzle report, the gun is
now much quieter

CHOPPER
Message no. 10
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 10:42:45 -0700
On Thu, 16 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

As has been kindly pointed out by Stainless Steel Rat H&K is now
making 10mm MP-5s, and the 10mm has pretty respectable ballistics. And
the Ingram does fire .45 cal, but (wince in anticipation) I wouldn't call
that a Heavy round since Muzzle Energy isn't significantly higher than
the 9mm, ALTHOUGH most folks would call it a better man-stopper.
(Please, gun gurus, forgive me, I don't want the old 9mm vs. .45
flamefest, okay? ;-)

> My friends favourite rifle is the 460 wetherby magnum (I think thats it -
> correct me if I'm wrong), thats pretty huge, i'd compare it to a ranger arms
> perhaps.

That's an Elephant Gun! Big huge thing, two barrels right? I
haven't heard of any military rifles being built around that cartridge but I
could be easily wrong, if someone would care to inform us.
>
> Damion
>

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 11
From: Chris Yang <cyang@*****.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 14:20:19 -0400
On Thu, 16 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> Adam writes:
>
> > Not true. SMG's and _Light_ pistols share common ammo. I don't
+ think
> > you'd get too many people to agree that a 9 mm is a "heavy" round. A
"Heavy
> > Pistol" would be like .357/.41/.44/.45 Magnum, and I haven't heard of too
> > many SMGs firing these rounds, generally because the bolt is too light.
>
.45 Magnum? New one to me.
I classify 9mm as a light round, although leaning towards the medium
category. Mdeium is reserved for the .45ACP, .41 magnum, .40S&W, .357 etc.
Heavy pistols are the big suckers, hot 10mm, 44 Magnum and .50AE.

> OK, just shows my ignorance :-) but what ammo does the ingram mac 10 use? I
> though it was something pretty big.
Just about anything you can get a barrel and magazines for, but I think
factory standard is .45ACP.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Yang cyang@*****.ubc.ca
University of British Columbia cyang@******.ubc.ca
Dept of Botany
Message no. 12
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: SMGs and Hvy pistols
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 12:53:07 +1000
Adam writes:

> > My friends favourite rifle is the 460 wetherby magnum (I think thats it -
> > correct me if I'm wrong), thats pretty huge, i'd compare it to a ranger arms
> > perhaps.
>
> That's an Elephant Gun! Big huge thing, two barrels right?

Dunno, hes never described it to me, and ive never bothered to look it up
myself. But in saying that I answered my own question. If I compared this to
a ranger arms, then a ranger arms would be about 50 cal (this thing is just
about), and a ranger arms does 14S, so a 50cal MG would do about the same. A
thought though, if a 303 rifle has a range of about a mile (I think), why do
SR sniper rifles (made for this kind of thing) only have range of 400m?

Damion

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