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Message no. 1
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Sniper Rifles
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 13:35:08 BST
While I remember, a couple of my players came back the other day complete with
new ideas and screws. I managed to sort most of the them out but I stuck on
one. The sniper rifle, two guys seem to have experience with guns (one the
army in Sinapore, the other it's better not to ask), but they both seem to
think that it takes a hell of a whack to knock a sniper rifle off line. I
think the current ruling goes something like "roll 1D6 for every turn that the
gun is being humped around in genral combat/whatever, if the result is less
or equal than the number of turns then the rifle is out of line and it takes
a +1/2 (?) modifier to all TN's.

Could someone help ? At the moment I'm staying to the published rules but
they're not happy.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email addres P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | An Uzi a day keeps the
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | politicians at bay O O
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England | |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse \_/
Message no. 2
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sniper Rifles
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 11:45:38 -0500
>but they both seem to
>think that it takes a hell of a whack to knock a sniper rifle off line. I
>think the current ruling goes something like "roll 1D6 for every turn that the
>gun is being humped around in genral combat/whatever, if the result is less
>or equal than the number of turns then the rifle is out of line and it takes
>a +1/2 (?) modifier to all TN's.

I think I see what your players are driving at. Sniper rifles are built to
snap-shot as easily as assault rifles. Sounds to me like this rule will
make it harder on them to lug around a sniper rifle and kill people with it.

J Roberson
Message no. 3
From: Chris Yang <cyang@*****.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Sniper Rifles
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:43:40 -0700
On Thu, 14 Oct 1993, The Powerhouse wrote:

> While I remember, a couple of my players came back the other day complete with
> new ideas and screws. I managed to sort most of the them out but I stuck on
> one. The sniper rifle, two guys seem to have experience with guns (one the
> army in Sinapore, the other it's better not to ask), but they both seem to
> think that it takes a hell of a whack to knock a sniper rifle off line. I

Firearms are not made of porcelain. I wouldn't even bother with rules
for checking for misalignment unless the thing gets used as a club
or as a wheelblock. They're made to withstand some abuse, otherwise
snipers would never be able to sight the things in properly.



----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Yang cyang@*****.ubc.ca
Message no. 4
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Sniper rifles..
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 15:01:46 BST
Just to clarify, cause people seemed to be losing the point of the original
request.

The players have the sniper rifle smart linked and have op mag 3 in their
eyes. They want to carry the rifle under their long coats and use them like
normal guns. I complained and whacked the +2 mod on, they complained back.
So actually using them as a sniper rifle is supposed to be used doesn't come
into it, they just hold and point, cause they have it smartlinked and optical 3
they don't have to worry about any other targeting.

See my problem ?

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email addres P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | An Uzi a day keeps the
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | politicians at bay O O
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England | |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse \_/
Message no. 5
From: Dennis Watson <watson@*******.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles..
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 14:06:50 EDT
> The players have the sniper rifle smart linked and have op mag 3 in their
> eyes. They want to carry the rifle under their long coats and use them like
> normal guns. I complained and whacked the +2 mod on, they complained back.
> So actually using them as a sniper rifle is supposed to be used doesn't come
> into it, they just hold and point, cause they have it smartlinked and optical 3
> they don't have to worry about any other targeting.
>
> See my problem ?

Yes, I agree that that is indeed a serious problem. Hose them for
it. They should know better.
Take an NPC sheet out and make a swat team. Give them a combat
mage with better stats than the published version, and a few samurai
with heavy armor and some assualt rifles with APDS. Give them a
helicopter gunship or an LAVT as transportation. Make these charming
boys the backup for the next lonestar cops your idiotic players meet.
Attempting to carry around sniper rifles as personal arms on a regular
basis is _BEGGING_ to be Dead. This is like toting around a panther
cannon on a regular basis. Shoot, you could make this an entire
adventure. Idiots carry around sniper rifles like they own the plex.
Lonestar sees them. Lonestar makes a dedicated effort to take them
down. They see the light and lay low for a while, or they die. If
they ever try to do this again, hose them again.
Sniper rifles are built to fit into a briefcase. If it is not
carried as such, then it should be hard to hide. I don't have the
source material here with me, but you can always change the
concealability to reflect briefcase-carried or assembled-carried.
Don't let these guys get away with this though.
Oh, and the swat team works for all sorts of things. They may seem
a little heavy handed, but the name of the game is _Shadow_Run. If
you don't stay discreet, you get dead. Oh, and swat team members make
great contacts. :-)
Hope that helps.
--
Lord Dennis E. Watson, B.A.M.F., Master of the Cheese.
"Okay, here's the plan. First we'll try to sneak in. If that fails,
we bluff our way through. If that fails, we shoot anything that
moves, get what we want, and then shoot our way out."
"I didn't say it was a _good_ plan."
Message no. 6
From: Mike Loseke <legion@**************.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles..
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1993 11:22:35 MDT
>Just to clarify, cause people seemed to be losing the point of the original
>request.
>
>The players have the sniper rifle smart linked and have op mag 3 in their
>eyes. They want to carry the rifle under their long coats and use them like
>normal guns. I complained and whacked the +2 mod on, they complained back.
>So actually using them as a sniper rifle is supposed to be used doesn't come
>into it, they just hold and point, cause they have it smartlinked and optical 3
>they don't have to worry about any other targeting.
>
>See my problem ?

Am I correct in assuming that the players are samurai? If so, then just tell
them they are playing out of character, and in the wrong game for that
matter; they need to be playing juicers or crazies in Rifts.

No one, with any military experience whatsoever, would attempt this. If they
knew someone who would, they would harass them until they just gave up
on the lame idea.

If they insist on trying, take away any dice they might use to defend against
an opponent. Sniper rifles are big, heavy and made to be fired from a
distance, whereas assault rifles are smaller, light and made to be handled
roughly in firefights under 100m.

And give their opponents bigger guns and heavy armor. Break them to your will.

Legion
Message no. 7
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles..
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 11:16:53 -0400
On Sun, 17 Oct 1993, Mike Loseke wrote:

> >So actually using them as a sniper rifle is supposed to be used doesn't come
> >into it, they just hold and point, cause they have it smartlinked and optical 3
> >they don't have to worry about any other targeting.
> >
> >See my problem ?
>
if they presist in using thier presission sniper rifles in this manner
1] screw up the precission of thier riffles
a] have they ever ever said they were going to clean the offending weapons?
b] weapons poorly taken care of jam and some times explode
2] run your gamers through an EMP that's electro magnetic pulse
a] emp can fry electronic equipment like say the smart link in the gun
b] emp can fry cyberware like say those opti 3 eyeballs or the internal
smartlink and any number of other nasty things
emp is cause by nukes going off so i would avoid this source of emp try
the emp spell this can play havoc with all sorts of good stuff and emp
are what screws up the radio when lightening strikes so some sort of
electronic device could be built to produce an emp
hope this helps
---------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 8
From: Legion am I <legion@**************.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 11:27:42 MDT
>On Sun, 17 Oct 1993, Mike Loseke wrote:

Correction: Mike Loseke forwarded:
^^^^^^^^^

>> >So actually using them as a sniper rifle is supposed to be used doesn't come
>> >into it, they just hold and point, cause they have it smartlinked and optical
3
>> >they don't have to worry about any other targeting.
>> >
>> >See my problem ?
>>
>if they presist in using thier presission sniper rifles in this manner
>1] screw up the precission of thier riffles
> a] have they ever ever said they were going to clean the offending weapons?
> b] weapons poorly taken care of jam and some times explode
>2] run your gamers through an EMP that's electro magnetic pulse
> a] emp can fry electronic equipment like say the smart link in the gun
> b] emp can fry cyberware like say those opti 3 eyeballs or the internal
> smartlink and any number of other nasty things
>emp is cause by nukes going off so i would avoid this source of emp try
>the emp spell this can play havoc with all sorts of good stuff and emp
>are what screws up the radio when lightening strikes so some sort of
>electronic device could be built to produce an emp
>hope this helps
>---------------------------------GRANITE

I AM in the army, so all of the above is second nature knowledge to me.
I'm sure the original poster benefited from the info tho.

Legion
Message no. 9
From: Andy Austin <gaustin@****.VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper Rifles
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 12:59:32 -0500
>Friday night's game, one of my players was using a sniper rifle. Extreme
>range is 400 metres, or about 1/4 mile. He was complaining that this was
>incredibly low.

Your friend was correct, this range is very low. At present, most
sniper rifles can accurately hit targets at one kilometer, while a Barretta
.50 caliber Sniper Rifle is accurate to two kilometers. Considering how
technology will improve, I would assume most sniper rifles could 'reach out
and touch someone' at around 1.5 kilometers or more.

>Also, if a Mag-3 scope counts Extreme range as Short range [ie target
>number 4 before modifiers], then shouldn't ranges become possible beyond
>this? The bullet doesn't simply stop, after all, although I tend to
>assume that the ranges are the maximum accurate ranges - and that after
>that, aiming is impossible because of wind deflection, etc.

No, extreme range is where friction has affected bullet's
velocity so much, that any farther the bullet has a much lower chance of
killing.

Andy Austin, your friendly neighborhood sniper.
Message no. 10
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Sniper Rifles
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 15:20:01 -0500
I believe someone came up with the idea of (something like this anyway) if
you use a magnification sight... you multiply the ranges given by (1 +
Magnification level). What this does is enhances the range to "realistic"
levels. If you have no sight on a sniper rifle, then I can see having an
effective range of @**** (maybe a little better than that, but you can see
where I'm coming from). With a mag-sight, the full range of the weapon can
be used. Without one, it's only as good as your eyesight. I believe the
house rule given also required the shooter to aim for one simple action to
gain the benefit, which seems appropriate.


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Who rarely uses sights, persay... but loves cybereyes loaded with all the
goodies <G>
Message no. 11
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper Rifles
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 19:46:47 GMT
> Ps. one of my players has a sniper rifle with an undermounted GL, for
> thopse tricky shots where the first round doesn;t kill the target ;-)
> I dread to think what the recoil form a GL does to his delicate sights
> every time he uses it ;-)
> Phil (Renegade)

The Russian Dragunov SVD fits a bayonet, for some odd reason, and is
robust enough that you can beat a man to death with the butt end without
knocking the sights out: don't hold the muzzle to swing, though, the long
barrel can bend. It's a sniper rifle for infantry, and you can assault a
position with it if necessary. Of course you lose accuracy compared to a
flat-out precision machine like the L96, but for Russian levels of training
it's plenty good enough.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 12
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sniper Rifles
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:01:24 -0400
On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, Paul Jonathan Adam wrote:

> The Russian Dragunov SVD fits a bayonet, for some odd reason, and is
> robust enough that you can beat a man to death with the butt end without
> knocking the sights out: don't hold the muzzle to swing, though, the long
> barrel can bend. It's a sniper rifle for infantry, and you can assault a
> position with it if necessary. Of course you lose accuracy compared to a
> flat-out precision machine like the L96, but for Russian levels of training
> it's plenty good enough.

Yeah, too bad the damn things cost $1,500 a pop here in the US.
I'd like to get one, but not that badly.

Marc
Message no. 13
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:29:54 +0200 (EET)
On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >But in Finland the snipers often get 50 yr. old rifles for training
> >exercises instead of the "real stuff" just so they don't get banged up.

> >Naturally these rifles (most of which have seen combat and are actually
> >still quite accurate but kick like a mule, I can say from personal
> >experience... I had to do some creative shoulder padding :-) ) are then
> >used for anything, from hammering tent pegs into the ground to breaking ice
> >to...
>
> I hope you didn't have your scope mounted when you tried that! Since most

Heck, you can't even get a scope on these mamas! They're just substitutes
for sniper rifles so the guys have something to carry. It's better than
carrying a piece of wood, which is also done in Finland... :-).


---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
---------------------------------------------
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Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper Rifles
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:41:33 +0100
David Fallon said on 17:09/ 2 Dec 96...

> On a subsonic note, it's hard to snipe without everyone noticing when you're
> firing supersonic bullets.

Most snipers use supersonic rounds, though. Military snipers don't stay in
the same place after firing, they quickly and stealthily move to a new
position, or get away from the target area completely.

Police snipers usually have to fire only a few shots to take care of a
situation, so firing supersonic rounds also doesn't matter, except of
course if there's a major chance of hitting someone else with the same
round that takes out the target.

> Remember, supersonic bullets are _REALLY_ loud. (Breaks the sound
> barrier, and all) Sure, it's possible, but only in very specialized
> cases.

Keep in mind that you only hear the bullet break the sound barrier when
the shockwave passes you, not when the bullet is fired.

> That, and see the guy who said "Who cares, no one snipes
> from that far away anyways" for more reasons why it doesn't matter. A faster
> bullet just means it goes farther before it hits the ground, and in 99.999%
> of the cases, there's no difference beyond the first half-mile or so...

Military snipers get trained to fire at human-size targets at ranges of a
kilometer and more.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 15
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper Rifles
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:25:55 +0000
On 3 Dec 96 at 13:41, Gurth wrote:
[snip]
> Military snipers get trained to fire at human-size targets at ranges of a
> kilometer and more.
But...but.... they can't!

Extreme range for sniper rifles is 400 meters!
(*happy I still have my asbestos suit on*)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 16
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@******.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sniper Rifles
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:06:19 -0500
Sascha Pabst[SMTP:Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE] wrote:
>On 3 Dec 96 at 13:41, Gurth wrote:
>[snip]
>> Military snipers get trained to fire at human-size targets at ranges of
a
>> kilometer and more.
>But...but.... they can't!
>
>Extreme range for sniper rifles is 400 meters!
>(*happy I still have my asbestos suit on*)
>


I fixed this in my game by changing th eway scopes worked. Instead of
recuding the range TN, they extended each rage band by Range*(scope rating
+1)

IE, the extreme range of a sniper rifle became 1.6 km
Message no. 17
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:44:14 +0000
I've got a question for all ya weapon geeks out there. <grin>

Is it feasible to have a sniper rifle with a built-in burst fire
mode? The reason I'm asking this is that I'm thinking of changing the
modes on Walther MA-2000 to SA/BF. After all, it's a typical
battlefield sniper rifle - no silencer, tough, rugged... Not
something you use for assassinations... And BF would well explain the
6.5kA price tag when compared to Barett. (Of course, I don't allow
starting chars to have any equipment from outside the SRII book, so
the point is kinda moot, but I'd still like to get some value of my
¥... ;> )


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bea=
r/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)=
/House Scholae Palatinae
What, us .BATs? V^^^\_o^o_/^^^V
Message no. 18
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:25:32 -0500
At 08:44 PM 12/26/97 +0000, you wrote:
>I've got a question for all ya weapon geeks out there. <grin>
>
>Is it feasible to have a sniper rifle with a built-in burst fire
>mode? The reason I'm asking this is that I'm thinking of changing the
>modes on Walther MA-2000 to SA/BF. After all, it's a typical
>battlefield sniper rifle - no silencer, tough, rugged... Not
>something you use for assassinations... And BF would well explain the
>6.5kA price tag when compared to Barett. (Of course, I don't allow
>starting chars to have any equipment from outside the SRII book, so
>the point is kinda moot, but I'd still like to get some value of my
>¥... ;> )

There's a reason why 'sniper' rifles are SA, or bolt-action even, and it's
because it makes for a more stable mechanism and firing platform. Accuracy
is what counts to the sniper, not lots of fired rounds. Those guns have
magazines for a reason, you're not supposed to have to sustain fire.
Revolvers are more stable and accurate than automatics for much the same
reason, though I'd bet the gap is shrinking slowly over time.


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
Message no. 19
From: JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:58:14 EST
In a message dated 97-12-26 14:53:16 EST, you write:

> Is it feasible to have a sniper rifle with a built-in burst fire
> mode?

I think I remember seeing in a book that H&K once produced a modified G3 to
make it better suited for sniper work (I think it was called a G3 SG1). IIRC,
the semi-auto mode could be disabled, allowing the user to fire it single-
shot. 7.62 mm, with a given range of about 800 yards.

I could, of course, be mistaken on many different accounts.

And then again, I'll bet there are some gun purists out there that may argue
that the SG1 is not a "true" sniper rifle, just a longer-ranged assault rifle
that *could* function as a sniper rifle in a pinch.

-- Jon
Message no. 20
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:58:07 +0800
On Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:44:14 +0000, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

>I've got a question for all ya weapon geeks out there. <grin>
>
>Is it feasible to have a sniper rifle with a built-in burst fire
>mode? The reason I'm asking this is that I'm thinking of changing the
>modes on Walther MA-2000 to SA/BF. After all, it's a typical
>battlefield sniper rifle - no silencer, tough, rugged... Not
>something you use for assassinations... And BF would well explain the
>6.5kA price tag when compared to Barett. (Of course, I don't allow
>starting chars to have any equipment from outside the SRII book, so
>the point is kinda moot, but I'd still like to get some value of my
>... ;> )

No. A sniper rifle carries the high price tag because it is a highly acc=
urate single shot
weapon. No weapon is accurate in burst fire mode as recoil will move the=
weapon
spoiling the aim, plus the scope is likely to be vibrated during a burst=
fire.

The longest ranged and most accurate sniper rifle on record was a browni=
ng .50 caliber
machine gun, modified for single shot. A canadian used it in Vietnam to =
successfully
assassinate in excess of 25 important targets, at ranges up to 1.6 Km. N=
ote, this
weapon had a scope, and was incapable of being used in semi automatic or=
fully
automatic modes.

>
>
>Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~=
bear/mike;
> Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
> FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Si=
th)/House
Scholae Palatinae
> What, us .BATs? V^^^\_o^o_/^^^V
>

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com

Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.

Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.
Message no. 21
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:47:11 +0000
On 26 Dec 97, Oliver McDonald disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:


<snip my question>
> No. A sniper rifle carries the high price tag because it is a highly
> accurate single shot weapon. No weapon is accurate in burst fire

Well, OK, but a much better Barett is only 4.8k¥, and MA 2100 is
6.5k¥. What's the point in that case?

> mode as recoil will move the weapon spoiling the aim, plus the scope
> is likely to be vibrated during a burst fire.

Well, OK, then I will change the question a bit: Is this feasible in
ShadowRun world of 2053+ to have a burst-fire sniper rifle?

I think it would work pretty nice for long-range suppressive fire.

> The longest ranged and most accurate sniper rifle on record was a
> browning .50 caliber machine gun, modified for single shot. A
Ahhh. You mean Barett? ;>

> canadian used it in Vietnam to successfully assassinate in excess of
> 25 important targets, at ranges up to 1.6 Km. Note, this weapon had

Yep. The longest-ranged kill was at a bit over 1.6 klicks, but
well... it was with a normal HMG, IIRC, the gunner just lucked out
and saw a VC standing next to a rock he used earlier to zero his
weapon on...

I do know a bit about this stuff... <grin> IOW I'm an informed
layman..

BTW: Your Reply-To field is overriding the list! (I always wanted to
say that ;P )


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bea=
r/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)=
/House Scholae Palatinae
Squatters do it squatting.
Message no. 22
From: "Simon.M" <Simon.M@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:55:38 -0000
>BTW: Your Reply-To field is overriding the list! (I always wanted to
>say that ;P )


Should have said it to me when you had the chance!
Message no. 23
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:22:29 -0600
> > Is it feasible to have a sniper rifle with a built-in burst fire
> > mode?
>
> I think I remember seeing in a book that H&K once produced a modified G3 to
> make it better suited for sniper work (I think it was called a G3 SG1). IIRC,
> the semi-auto mode could be disabled, allowing the user to fire it single-
> shot. 7.62 mm, with a given range of about 800 yards.

HK did indeed make modifications, unfortunately in semi-automatic mode
the weapon becomes somewhat inaccurate due to recoil. You also
experience vibration problems that cause the scope to misalign.
Granted, your not talking about a tremendous misalignment, but you have
to remember that at ranges of 800 yards plus even a slight misalignment
can have drastic affects on your placement. A well trained sniper can
achieve very good rof with even a bolt action rifle. The key to being a
sniper is accuracy, not rof.

> And then again, I'll bet there are some gun purists out there that may argue
> that the SG1 is not a "true" sniper rifle, just a longer-ranged assault
rifle
> that *could* function as a sniper rifle in a pinch.

Hehehe.. well, a 7.62 mm round does qualify as a good choice for a
snipers round, but the sniper doesn't use more than one shot to achieve
his objective, so a semi-automatic snipers rifle is something of a moot
point. The primary objective of a sniper is to aquire and eliminate his
target from long range with a single shot, preferably before the target
or anyone else realizes what has happened. If you have more than one
target, you send more than one sniper or preferably a squad to engage
the enemy in close combat, as coordinating more than one sniper is an
iffy proposition at best. Once that first shot has been taken, you
become a very vulnerable target. You've lost the one element that truly
makes a sniper effective, surprise. Once you've taken your shot you lie
low and extract when the opportunity presents itself. It requires
patience, timing and accuracy to ensure that your first shot is your
last.
Message no. 24
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:32:30 -0600
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> I've got a question for all ya weapon geeks out there. <grin>

Hmm.. I suppose I qualify.. well, former weapon geek at any rate.

> Is it feasible to have a sniper rifle with a built-in burst fire
> mode? The reason I'm asking this is that I'm thinking of changing the
> modes on Walther MA-2000 to SA/BF. After all, it's a typical
> battlefield sniper rifle - no silencer, tough, rugged... Not
> something you use for assassinations... And BF would well explain the
> 6.5kA price tag when compared to Barett. (Of course, I don't allow
> starting chars to have any equipment from outside the SRII book, so
> the point is kinda moot, but I'd still like to get some value of my
> ¥... ;> )

First of all, silencing a snipers rifle is not really all that
feasible. When you "silence" a weapon it reduces your muzzle velocity
to sub-sonic speeds. The majority of the noise made by a snipers rifle
is made when the round exits the muzzle at supersonic speeds. If you
reduce muzzle velocity to sub-sonic speed, your round will not carry
very far and won't have much penetration power left when it arrives.
Since most sniping is done from long range, having a rifle that will
only carry a few hundred yards with any accuracy is not very useful.

Although it is technically possible to make a semi-automatic rifle with
the range and power of a "sniper's" rifle, to do so makes it a poor
choice for the sniper. A sniper eliminates a specific target from long
range, preferably with a single shot. You may be interested to know that
the the Barret Browning is a .50 caliber bolt action rifle, designed
primarily around the same round used by the old "Ma Deuce" or .50
caliber machine gun. The design of the Barret suits it's purpose. A
sniper doesn't need a semi automatic weapon. If you have to start
spraying that much ammo that quickly, odds are you've fouled up pretty
bad somewhere along the line and probably won't live long enough to
regret your mistake.

Digger
Message no. 25
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:33:41 -0500
At 02:47 AM 12/27/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Well, OK, but a much better Barett is only 4.8k¥, and MA 2100 is
>6.5k¥. What's the point in that case?

Um, I think the point is that the Walther is a tougher sniper rifle than
the Ranger Arms, made for military field use, and has a slightly larger
magazine. It's more expensive because that's what the manufacturer
charges. The Barret is supposedly nigh-impossible to get, and hard to
supply with ammo once you do, I would say it is more a case of 'what's the
point?' than the Walther. The Walther is there for a little variety, the
Barret is there to scare the hell out've anything in the game it's pointed
at, and prolly not to ever be used by PCs.


>Well, OK, then I will change the question a bit: Is this feasible in
>ShadowRun world of 2053+ to have a burst-fire sniper rifle?

Possibly, but the sniper's function is not to do massive damage, but to hit
and kill the target via accuracy and a reasonably heavy round for the job.

>I think it would work pretty nice for long-range suppressive fire.

That's not the point. An assault rifle or other full-auto or burst-fire
weapon is there for suppressive fire... or a proper machine gun if you're
in a _real_ military situation. And the Barret is for killing small
vehicles and destroying equipment more than for killing human targets, as I
believe has been mentioned here before... not that it wouldn't be good at
killing people.


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
Message no. 26
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:35:22 -0600
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> Well, OK, then I will change the question a bit: Is this feasible in
> ShadowRun world of 2053+ to have a burst-fire sniper rifle?

Nope.. see my previous post for explanation.

> I think it would work pretty nice for long-range suppressive fire.

Thats why the good lord invented the heavy machine gun.

> Ahhh. You mean Barett? ;>

Yup. The Barret Browning.
Message no. 27
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:44:45 -0500
At 08:32 PM 12/26/97 -0600, you wrote:
> First of all, silencing a snipers rifle is not really all that
>feasible. When you "silence" a weapon it reduces your muzzle velocity
>to sub-sonic speeds. The majority of the noise made by a snipers rifle
>is made when the round exits the muzzle at supersonic speeds.

IIRC, silencers reduce the velocity of the gasses produced by the firing,
keeping them subsonic as they exit the barrel, but do not reduce the
bullet's velocity (otherwise, why not simply reduce the powder used int he
round so it never gets to super-sonic velocity?). If there's someone on
the list with better knowledge of silencers, please chime in now. My info
comes from my Dad, who did serve in the army for years and picked up a lot
there, but it's possible he's not entirely correct.


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
Message no. 28
From: JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:23:46 EST
<comments about the G3 SG1 snipped>

Well, I dug up the book I saw that comment in... It was Ultramodern Firearms
for the Millennium's End game (which has some decent write-ups about real-
world guns, BTW). It was mentioned under their Rifles chapter (which discusses
sniping in its intro and is set apart from *assault* rifles, so it's
reasonable to assume this chapter was talking about sniper rifles).

Since I'll take what you say as true, I can think of one of three possible
reasons why Heckler & Koch decided to try designing the SG1...

--- In case the sniper got surprised at short ranges and needed to un-@$$
himself in a hurry, the autofire option would serve as an "ace up the sleeve"
backup (certainly a possibility on the battlefield, where the SG1 would have
been planned to see the most use.)

--- Some bean-counter in the Bundeswehr was pushing for "weapon
standardization" and thought it a good idea to build a sniper rifle from the
same design as the G3. :)

--- H&K was trying to make some quick D-marks off of someone who doesn't know
better. :)

-- Jon
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:54:21 +0100
JonSzeto said on 17:58/26 Dec 97...

> I think I remember seeing in a book that H&K once produced a modified G3 to
> make it better suited for sniper work (I think it was called a G3 SG1). IIRC,
> the semi-auto mode could be disabled, allowing the user to fire it single-
> shot. 7.62 mm, with a given range of about 800 yards.
>
> I could, of course, be mistaken on many different accounts.

AFAIK the G3 SG/1 is nothing but a standard G3 that proves above-average
accurate in test firings, fitted with a Zeiss telescope sight and an
adjustable trigger group (in semi-auto mode only; it goes back to the
standard pull as soon as a shot is fired or the selector lever is turned).
This rifle is used by snipers in regular Panzergrenadier sections (squads)
in the German army, to the best of my knowledge.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:54:22 +0100
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 20:44/26 Dec 97...

> Is it feasible to have a sniper rifle with a built-in burst fire mode?
> The reason I'm asking this is that I'm thinking of changing the modes on
> Walther MA-2000 to SA/BF. After all, it's a typical battlefield sniper
> rifle - no silencer, tough, rugged... Not something you use for
> assassinations... And BF would well explain the 6.5kA price tag when
> compared to Barett. (Of course, I don't allow starting chars to have any
> equipment from outside the SRII book, so the point is kinda moot, but
> I'd still like to get some value of my ¥... ;> )

If it's a self-loading rifle, it should be possible to add some kind of
burst mode to it, though that'd require extensive surgery on the trigger
mechanism.

Sniper rifles are _not_ intended to be fired full-auto -- accuracy sucks,
and for any custom-designed sniper rifle, that's exactly what you don't
want. There are some sniper rifles (IRL) that fire full-auto, but these
are conversions of standard rifles, not purpose-designed weapons like the
MA 2100.

The reason for the MA 2100's price tag is that accuracy comes at a cost.
It requires much better (more precise) design and machining than that used=

to construct most other guns.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:54:23 +0100
JonSzeto said on 23:23/26 Dec 97...

> <comments about the G3 SG1 snipped>
>
> Well, I dug up the book I saw that comment in... It was Ultramodern Firearms
> for the Millennium's End game (which has some decent write-ups about real-
> world guns, BTW).

One or two minor mistakes (mainly the ammo fired by the PKM) , but a very
good book if you don't know much about firearms. Only the game stats
tables in the back are specific to Millennium's End, the rest is
completely generic.

> Since I'll take what you say as true, I can think of one of three possible
> reasons why Heckler & Koch decided to try designing the SG1...
>
> --- In case the sniper got surprised at short ranges and needed to un-@$$
> himself in a hurry, the autofire option would serve as an "ace up the
sleeve"
> backup (certainly a possibility on the battlefield, where the SG1 would have
> been planned to see the most use.)
>
> --- Some bean-counter in the Bundeswehr was pushing for "weapon
> standardization" and thought it a good idea to build a sniper rifle from the
> same design as the G3. :)

Probably both, to some degree or other. AFAIK snipers are an integral part
of many rifle sections in the German army, and if they have a "sniper"
rifle that also has a FA mode they can function as normal riflemen when
necessary.

> --- H&K was trying to make some quick D-marks off of someone who
> doesn't know better. :)

The Bundeswehr?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 32
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:17:08 -0700
Thus spake JonSzeto:
>
> <comments about the G3 SG1 snipped>
>
> Since I'll take what you say as true, I can think of one of three possible
> reasons why Heckler & Koch decided to try designing the SG1...
>
> --- In case the sniper got surprised at short ranges and needed to un-@$$
> himself in a hurry, the autofire option would serve as an "ace up the
sleeve"
> backup (certainly a possibility on the battlefield, where the SG1 would have
> been planned to see the most use.)

This is what sidearms and SMG's are used for. You don't use a real sniper
rifle at short ranges unless it's your only choice. Making a sniper rifle
perform more than one duty makes it something else.

A point that most people forget is that the best sniper is two people:
one sniper and one spotter. The sniper has his eyes focused 1000+ meters
away and the spotter has the ability to look in a couple places that
the sniper is unable to. This is also the guy that carries the assault
rifle so your auto-fire is taken care of.

--
Mike Loseke | It's pudding time, children!
mike@*******.com | -- Primus
Message no. 33
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:24:53 -0700
Thus spake losthalo:
>
> At 02:47 AM 12/27/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
> >I think it would work pretty nice for long-range suppressive fire.
>
> That's not the point. An assault rifle or other full-auto or burst-fire
> weapon is there for suppressive fire... or a proper machine gun if you're
> in a _real_ military situation. And the Barret is for killing small
> vehicles and destroying equipment more than for killing human targets, as I
> believe has been mentioned here before... not that it wouldn't be good at
> killing people.

If you want long range suppressive fire, use a machine gun, preferrably
one based on the M2. The cupola mount for the M2-HB on the M1/M1A1 had
the reticle range top out at 1835m, which was also the rated maximum
effective range of the M2 (I was told that this was because that's where
the reticle stopped). It doesn't matter if the weapon is designed for
destroying vehicles, the scale of the targets being suppressed just goes
up. :) Nobody said that you couldn't suppress vehicles and small bunkers.

The main point against using a sniper rifle for suppressive fire is
that suppressive fire is against an area target and you don't need the
accuracy of a sniper rifle for this. You only need to be able to "walk"
the impact of the rounds in the general area of the target so as to make
them dirty their undies.

--
Mike Loseke | It's pudding time, children!
mike@*******.com | -- Primus
Message no. 34
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:27:50 +0000
In article <199712261933.UAA16996@*****.onet.pl>, "Leszek Karlik, aka
Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> writes
>I've got a question for all ya weapon geeks out there. <grin>
>
>Is it feasible to have a sniper rifle with a built-in burst fire
>mode?

Maybe. H&K's sniper rifles are semi-automatics and could in theory
acquire burst-fire mode. I created the PSG-7, which had BF fire mode,
simply as an "oh, sh!t" mode for the sniper if surprised at close range.

Others, like the Accuracy International L96, are bolt-actions and
cannot.

> The reason I'm asking this is that I'm thinking of changing the
>modes on Walther MA-2000 to SA/BF. After all, it's a typical
>battlefield sniper rifle - no silencer, tough, rugged... Not
>something you use for assassinations... And BF would well explain the
>6.5kA price tag when compared to Barett.

Nope. The superior robustness explains the price tag. The Walther can
handle the rough-and-tumble of military life much better than a Ranger
Arms. I'd guess that a parachute drop with a Ranger or Barrett would
leave you a sad collection of rifle pieces.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 35
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:14:03 -0600
JonSzeto wrote:

> --- In case the sniper got surprised at short ranges and needed to un-@$$
> himself in a hurry, the autofire option would serve as an "ace up the
sleeve"
> backup (certainly a possibility on the battlefield, where the SG1 would have
> been planned to see the most use.)

Sidearms serve this purpose much better, as do spotters. Hehehhe

> --- Some bean-counter in the Bundeswehr was pushing for "weapon
> standardization" and thought it a good idea to build a sniper rifle from the
> same design as the G3. :)

That I can buy.

> --- H&K was trying to make some quick D-marks off of someone who doesn't know
> better. :)

Hehehe.. well, the autofire option would prove useful on a weapon
chambered for the 7.62 mm round, but autofire is really not in the
perview of sniper rifles. I can see H&K manufacturing the weapon as
sort of a multipurpose variant, but such weapons usually have a fairly
short lifespan.

Digger
Message no. 36
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:49:59 -0600
On Sat, 27 Dec 1997, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> Nope. The superior robustness explains the price tag. The Walther can
> handle the rough-and-tumble of military life much better than a Ranger
> Arms. I'd guess that a parachute drop with a Ranger or Barrett would
> leave you a sad collection of rifle pieces.

Thats why most sniper rifles are broken down and put in a case for travel
IRRC:). That and the current Barret light 50 wieghs something like 30
pounds. Hmmm let me go check that number on the Marine FactFile *rumage
rumage, surf surf*. Dang they hide that link. but here it is


-----begin paste----
http://www.hqmc.usmc.mil/factfile.nsf/AVE?openview&count000

M82A1A .50 Caliber Special Application Scoped Rifle

Manufacturers: Barrett Firearms Manufacturing, Inc. and Unertl
Length: 57 inches (144.78 centimeters)
Barrel length: 29 inches (73.67 cm)
Weight: 32.5 pounds (14.75 kilograms) (unloaded)
Bore diameter: 12.7mm (.50 Caliber)
Maximum effective range on equipment-sized targets: 1800 meters
Muzzle velocity: 2800 feet (854 meters) per second
Magazine capacity: 10 rounds
Unit Replacement Cost: $6,000

Features: The M82A1A is a semi-automatic, air cooled, box magazine fed
rifle chambered for the .50 caliber, M2 Browning Machine Gun cartridge
(.50 BMG or 12.7 x 99mm NATO). This rifle operates by means of the short
recoil principle. The weapon system is comprised of the rifle (M82A1A)
with a Unertl 10-power scope and an additional box magazine. The system
comes packed in its own watertight, airtight carrying case with an air
release valve for aircraft transportation and the requisite cleaning rod
and brushes. The basic M82A1A rifle is equipped with bipod, muzzle brake,
carrying handle, metallic sights, and 10-round box magazine. There is
also a back pack for cross country transport and a bandolier for extra
magazines is available.

Background: The M82A1A is designed to provide commanders the tactical
option of employing snipers with an anti-materiel weapon to augment the
present anti-personnel M40A1 7.62mm weapon. The rifle is manufactured by
Barrett Firearms Manufacturing, Incorporated of Murfreesboro, Tennessee.
The scope is manufactured by Unertl to match the trajectory of .50 caliber
Raufoss Grade A (DODIC A606), which is the standard operational round.

POC: Headquarters Marine Corps, Division of Public Affairs, 2 Navy Annex,
Washington, DC 20380-1775; (703) 614-6251.

Date last modified: 12/15/95

-------end paste------

Dang thats a big gun! almost 1.5 meters long and 15Kg. and you wonder
why it comes with a case and purpose built backpack:). Anyway its a great
site to go play around on. I know the Navy has a similar site that you
can link to from the front page of www.navy.mil Not sure if the Army or
AF do. Time to go netsurf:).

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 37
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:25:53 +0000
On 26 Dec 97 at 20:32, TODD ROBBINS wrote:

[snip]

> First of all, silencing a snipers rifle is not really all that
> feasible. When you "silence" a weapon it reduces your muzzle velocity
> to sub-sonic speeds. The majority of the noise made by a snipers rifle
> is made when the round exits the muzzle at supersonic speeds. If you
> reduce muzzle velocity to sub-sonic speed, your round will not carry
> very far and won't have much penetration power left when it arrives.
> Since most sniping is done from long range, having a rifle that will
> only carry a few hundred yards with any accuracy is not very useful.

I have to disagree. Somewhere on my harddisk I've got a Heckler&Koch
weapons catalogue (for police-sevices, IIRC) and there is a description of
the MP-5SD3. Somewhere there it says, that it fires super-sonic ammo. Now
they wouldn't do that if it negelcted the silencer, would they?

Now that I think of it...what the hell do plice-forces do with silenced
weapons?!



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 38
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:53:42 +0000
On 26 Dec 97 at 20:44, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> I've got a question for all ya weapon geeks out there. <grin>

Glad to see the grin, referring to people with guns as geeks without
it is not considered a good survial trait.
>
> Is it feasible to have a sniper rifle with a built-in burst fire
> mode? The reason I'm asking this is that I'm thinking of changing
> the modes on Walther MA-2000 to SA/BF. After all, it's a typical
> battlefield sniper rifle - no silencer, tough, rugged... Not
> something you use for assassinations... And BF would well explain
> the 6.5kA price tag when compared to Barett. (Of course, I don't
> allow starting chars to have any equipment from outside the SRII
> book, so the point is kinda moot, but I'd still like to get some
> value of my ¥... ;> )

Yes it is feasible, almost any semi-automatic fire arm can be
converted/altered/adapted to fire full auto. Burst fire, is a bit
more problematic. The question is why? What you would end up with is
a weapon that lacks the presision for sniping (to convert to full
auto you have to mess in the trigger group, and yet is to fragile to
be a good lead hose. And it will only get worse with firing as the
weapon was not designed for full auto. The rifling will wear out
faster, a couple of minutes at full auto puts more bullets through
the rifle then a life time of sniping. For the same reason the
negitive effects of recoil on the stock and the bedding will turn up
much sooner.

As to getting your money's worth, what you are paying the big bucks
for is presision. A well built target or snipers rifle is much harder
and takes longer to build right then a lead hose (AKA SMG or Assault
rifle).

Having said all this there may still be a place, under special and
limited circumstances where this type conversion might be possible
and advisable. The Ammerican M-21 sniper rifle (U.S. Army) was hand
built from a National Match M-14 (target rifle) which is a extremely
carefully built M-14 (Semi-automatic, 7.62NATO, Battle Rifle with a
full auto capablity). One of the interesting things about the M-14 is
that while all of them are capable of full auto only a limited number
were equiped with a selector switch. The rest were just left in
semi-auto. It did not require a gunsmith, just the selector its self
and the knowledge of where to install it, even a ROTC cadet could do
it, I know becuase that is where I learned. Well to make this already
long story a little shorter. Because the M-21 used the same stock and
trigger group as the M-14, the selector could be fitted to the M-21
giving the M-21 a full auto capablity. Further this conversion did
not detract from the accuracy of the M-21, as long as it was not
used. Yep you could make the conversion with no ill effects as long
as you did not ever use it. You may wondering why make the
conversion? It was a just in case. If the fecial matter hit the air
circulating device, you had a automatic rifle (a quite accurate one
for a while). If you survived, you just took the chewing out and had
the M-21 reworked, which is to be preferred to being dead.

As to the Walther rifle, I do not belive that it could be convered
without detracting from its performance as a sniper rifle.

Hope this was some help.


David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

==========================
==========================
==
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 39
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:04:51 -0700
From: Mike Loseke


> If you want long range suppressive fire, use a machine gun,
preferrably
>one based on the M2. The cupola mount for the M2-HB on the M1/M1A1
had
>the reticle range top out at 1835m, which was also the rated maximum
>effective range of the M2 (I was told that this was because that's
where
>the reticle stopped).


Yeah, and the Maximum Range is 6.5 klicks.
Ain't it grand!!!! =)


MoonShadow
hernandez@********.com
ICQ 3220365
May the god, goddess, or deity of your choice bless,
curse, or completely ignore you, as per your wishes
Message no. 40
From: Jyster Cap <jyster007@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:58:10 -0800
---JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM> wrote:
>
> <comments about the G3 SG1 snipped>
>
> Well, I dug up the book I saw that comment in... It was Ultramodern
Firearms
> for the Millennium's End game (which has some decent write-ups about
real-
> world guns, BTW). It was mentioned under their Rifles chapter (which
discusses
> sniping in its intro and is set apart from *assault* rifles, so it's
> reasonable to assume this chapter was talking about sniper rifles).
>
This book your talking about is a good reference
on firearms. What I liked most about this book
were the drawings of the weapons, so I could
get a feel for the weapon.
Whatever system I play I like to know what the
weapons look like so I can make a character
style, ya know am I Billy the Kid, Arnold,
whatever person you want to pattern after.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 41
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:27:49 GMT
On Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:44:45 -0500, losthalo wrote:

> At 08:32 PM 12/26/97 -0600, you wrote:
> > First of all, silencing a snipers rifle is not really all that
> >feasible. When you "silence" a weapon it reduces your muzzle velocity
> >to sub-sonic speeds. The majority of the noise made by a snipers rifle
> >is made when the round exits the muzzle at supersonic speeds.
>
> IIRC, silencers reduce the velocity of the gasses produced by the firing,
> keeping them subsonic as they exit the barrel, but do not reduce the
> bullet's velocity (otherwise, why not simply reduce the powder used int he
> round so it never gets to super-sonic velocity?). If there's someone on
> the list with better knowledge of silencers, please chime in now. My info
> comes from my Dad, who did serve in the army for years and picked up a lot
> there, but it's possible he's not entirely correct.

To clarify, there are two methods of "silencing" a weapon:

1.) Muffle the sound of the escaping propellent gases. Most "silenced"
weapons incorporate this method, which works well for conventional
subsonic projectiles. Also called a "suppressor". Real Life example:
Ingram M10 (w/ sound suppressor).

2.) Reduce the speed of the projectile below the speed of sound-- negating
the sonic boom produced. Some silenced "sniping" weapons incorporate
this method of silencing, in addition to #1 above. Real Life example:
any of the H&K MP5SD_ line.



On Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:25:53 +0000, Zixx wrote:

> On 26 Dec 97 at 20:32, TODD ROBBINS wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > First of all, silencing a snipers rifle is not really all that
> > feasible. When you "silence" a weapon it reduces your muzzle velocity
> > to sub-sonic speeds. The majority of the noise made by a snipers rifle
> > is made when the round exits the muzzle at supersonic speeds. If you
> > reduce muzzle velocity to sub-sonic speed, your round will not carry
> > very far and won't have much penetration power left when it arrives.
> > Since most sniping is done from long range, having a rifle that will
> > only carry a few hundred yards with any accuracy is not very useful.
>
> I have to disagree. Somewhere on my harddisk I've got a Heckler&Koch
> weapons catalogue (for police-sevices, IIRC) and there is a description of
> the MP-5SD3. Somewhere there it says, that it fires super-sonic ammo. Now
> they wouldn't do that if it negelcted the silencer, would they?

I believe that certain bullets do exist today that will not create a sonic
boom while traveling above the speed of sound. It all has to do with
bullet shape.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 42
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 03:09:21 -0600
Zixx wrote:

> I have to disagree. Somewhere on my harddisk I've got a Heckler&Koch
> weapons catalogue (for police-sevices, IIRC) and there is a description of
> the MP-5SD3. Somewhere there it says, that it fires super-sonic ammo. Now
> they wouldn't do that if it negelcted the silencer, would they?

The MP-5SD3 is a submachine gun, not a snipers rifle. Also, it is sound
suppressed, not silenced. I've posted more complete details elsewhere
on the list.

> Now that I think of it...what the hell do plice-forces do with silenced
> weapons?!

The majority of these are used by the West German government for
counter terrorist units.


Digger
Message no. 43
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 03:13:21 -0600
> 1.) Muffle the sound of the escaping propellent gases. Most "silenced"
> weapons incorporate this method, which works well for conventional
> subsonic projectiles. Also called a "suppressor". Real Life example:
> Ingram M10 (w/ sound suppressor).
>
> 2.) Reduce the speed of the projectile below the speed of sound-- negating
> the sonic boom produced. Some silenced "sniping" weapons incorporate
> this method of silencing, in addition to #1 above. Real Life example:
> any of the H&K MP5SD_ line.


Correct on both counts. I had hoped to avoid becoming overly technical
on the subject, but if I must I must. At any rate, the subsonic round
has a fairly low muzzle velocity and is not tremendously accurate at
long range. So while it is technically possible to silence a snipers
rifle, you have a major trade off in muzzle velocity as a result.
Unfortunately, you were incorrect about one point. The MP5SD is not a
snipers rifle, it is actually a submachine gun.

Heckler and Koch use a specific coding sequence with their weapons.
The first number in the designator denotes the type of weapon involved.

1 Box fed machine gun
2 Belt fed machine gun
3 Assault rifle
4 Paramilitary rifle / German
5 Submachine gun
6 Grenade launcher, complete weapon
7 Grenade launcher, add-on weapon
8 (not used)
9 Semi-automatic paramilitary rifle / USA

The second number is used to designate the weapons caliber

1 7.62 x 51 mm
2 7.62 x 39 mm
3 5.56 x 45 mm
4 9 x 19 mm
5 (not used)
6 4.6 x 36 mm
7 (not used)
8 (not used)
9 40 mm

The original designation for the MP5 was actually HK54. The H&K HK54
is commonly referred to as the "MP5", and has been since the West German
government adopted it for use by the West German Police and Border
Guard. The West German government assigned it the designation MP5,
which was short for "Machine Pistol 5".

The designator HK54 refers to a type 5 or submachine gun chambered to
accept round type 4, 9mm. The MP5-SD is actually a silenced or more
accurately sound suppressed version of this classic submachine gun. The
actually statistics for the MP5 are as follows:

Round 9 x 19mm parabellum
Weight(Empty) 2.55Kg
5.62 lb
Length 680mm
28.77"
Firing Rate 800 rds/min
Muzzle Velocity 400 m/sec
1,312 ft/sec
Magazine capacity 15 or 30 shot magazine

These statistics are actually for the MP5A2, which is the baseline MP5
with a plastic stock. The MP5SD shares similar characteristics, but
it's muzzle velocity is somewhat affected by the sound suppression.
Hope that clears up the confusion.

Digger
Message no. 44
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:54:27 +0100
Zixx said on 22:25/27 Dec 97...

> I have to disagree. Somewhere on my harddisk I've got a Heckler&Koch
> weapons catalogue (for police-sevices, IIRC) and there is a description of
> the MP-5SD3. Somewhere there it says, that it fires super-sonic ammo. Now
> they wouldn't do that if it negelcted the silencer, would they?

The MP 5 SD-series fires supersonic ammo, but it has lots of holes in the
barrel to allow much of the propellant gases to bleed away. Thus, the
bullet doesn't reach a supersonic velocity even though normal ammo is
being fired. Many other silenced SMGs (for example the British L34
Sterling) use the same principle.

You have to remember that weapons make three types of noise: 1) the
expanding gases at the muzzle; 2) the "sonic boom" of the bullet; and 3)
the mechanical noises of the weapon's action.

A silencer (or better: sound suppresser) takes away #1, subsonic ammo
(whether with a reduced powder charge or fired from a drilled barrel)
removes #2, and a lock on the action takes care of #3, although that last
one is rare except in some pistols.

> Now that I think of it...what the hell do plice-forces do with silenced
> weapons?!

Counter-terrorism teams have a need for such weapons.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 45
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:44:16 +0000
On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:27:49 James Lindsay added

> To clarify, there are two methods of "silencing" a weapon:
>
> 1.) Muffle the sound of the escaping propellent gases. Most "silenced"
> weapons incorporate this method, which works well for conventional
> subsonic projectiles. Also called a "suppressor". Real Life example:
> Ingram M10 (w/ sound suppressor).
>
> 2.) Reduce the speed of the projectile below the speed of sound-- negating
> the sonic boom produced. Some silenced "sniping" weapons incorporate
> this method of silencing, in addition to #1 above. Real Life example:
> any of the H&K MP5SD_ line.

Lets not forget part 3 of silencing a weapon for a sniper, which
AFAIK all silencers and suppressors do : hide the muzzle flash.
If you just used Sub-Sonic rounds you still have the flash problem.
Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 46
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:20:05 +0000
On 26 Dec 97 at 16:58, Oliver McDonald wrote:


> The longest ranged and most accurate sniper rifle on record was a
> browning .50 caliber machine gun, modified for single shot. A
> canadian used it in Vietnam to successfully assassinate in excess of
> 25 important targets, at ranges up to 1.6 Km. Note, this weapon had
> a scope, and was incapable of being used in semi automatic or fully
> automatic modes.

The M2HB (AKA Browning .50 caliber machine gun) is a selective fire
weapon. That is it can be firer semi-automaticly (i.e. one bullet per
trigger depression), if the gunner wants to without any modification.
Out of the box the weapon is extreemely accurate, so accurate that
consideration was made to very the cartridge components to get the
variation in point of impact that is desireable in a machine gun.
Careful use of the T&E (traverse and elevation) mechinism on the
tripod permits presision aiming, at stationary targets. The starlight
scope for the M2HB was fitted and sighted in just like a normal
scope. This scope could be used in daylight by putting two layers of
C-ration box cardboard under the red filtered lense cap. (that was
how we sighted them in on the range). Put it all together and every
unit equiped with one had a long range sniping capability (if the
target would stand still).




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 47
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:20:05 +0000
On 27 Dec 97 at 10:17, Mike Loseke wrote:


> A point that most people forget is that the best sniper is two
> people:
> one sniper and one spotter. The sniper has his eyes focused 1000+
> meters away and the spotter has the ability to look in a couple
> places that the sniper is unable to. This is also the guy that
> carries the assault rifle so your auto-fire is taken care of.

In Indian Country there is much to be said for a three man team,
sniper, spotter and security. The security man pays attention to the
local area while the other two's attention is on the target.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 48
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:28:48 GMT
On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 03:13:21 -0600, TODD ROBBINS wrote:

> Unfortunately, you were incorrect about one point. The MP5SD is not a
> snipers rifle, it is actually a submachine gun.

Ooops! I meant to use a modern "silenced" sniper rifle as my example, but
decided to use the MP5-SD instead. Just goes to show what can happen when
composing email when you should, in fact, be sleeping :)





James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 49
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:34:03 GMT
On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:44:16 +0000, Andy Gardner wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:27:49 James Lindsay added
>
> > To clarify, there are two methods of "silencing" a weapon:
> >
> > 1.) Muffle the sound of the escaping propellent gases. Most
"silenced"
> > weapons incorporate this method, which works well for conventional
> > subsonic projectiles. Also called a "suppressor". Real Life
example:
> > Ingram M10 (w/ sound suppressor).
> >
> > 2.) Reduce the speed of the projectile below the speed of sound-- negating
> > the sonic boom produced. Some silenced "sniping" weapons
incorporate
> > this method of silencing, in addition to #1 above. Real Life example:
> > any of the H&K MP5SD_ line.
>
> Lets not forget part 3 of silencing a weapon for a sniper, which
> AFAIK all silencers and suppressors do : hide the muzzle flash.
> If you just used Sub-Sonic rounds you still have the flash problem.

This kind of detail can only benefit an RPG, IMHO. I'm not saying that
actual rules need to exist for detecting such weapons being fired, but a
small sidebar containing useful knowledge such as this could aid a referee
create a better atmosphere in his or her campaign.

Of course, incorporating these trivia sidebars into SR3 would be nice, but
it just ain't gonna happen.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 50
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:04:41 -0600
James Lindsay wrote:

> Ooops! I meant to use a modern "silenced" sniper rifle as my example, but
> decided to use the MP5-SD instead. Just goes to show what can happen when
> composing email when you should, in fact, be sleeping :)

Hehehe.. not to worry, happens to the best of us.

Digger
Message no. 51
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:07:25 -0600
James Lindsay wrote:

> This kind of detail can only benefit an RPG, IMHO. I'm not saying that
> actual rules need to exist for detecting such weapons being fired, but a
> small sidebar containing useful knowledge such as this could aid a referee
> create a better atmosphere in his or her campaign.

The problem you run into is that a lot of people don't know that much
about firearms, and spending a lot of time an effort providing precise
stats and a lot of gory detail would not be of that much benefit to a
lot of people that play SR. Personally I think they are better off
sticking with the basic idea the way they have, and avoid trying to
burden the system with massive amounts of detail that really aren't that
necessary.

> Of course, incorporating these trivia sidebars into SR3 would be nice, but
> it just ain't gonna happen.


Hehehe.. I hope not, at any rate.

Digger
Message no. 52
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:34:16 -0600
Andy Gardner wrote:

> Lets not forget part 3 of silencing a weapon for a sniper, which
> AFAIK all silencers and suppressors do : hide the muzzle flash.
> If you just used Sub-Sonic rounds you still have the flash problem.


For terms of a snipers rifle flash suppresion is far more important and
a much better option than either attempting to silence or suppress the
noise of the shot. When your talking about the ranges involved with
most sniper rifles, the bullet will arrive before the sound does. Sound
also has a strange way of bouncing about and providing you with a lot of
sensory input that makes it difficult to determine direction.
So if you do it right the target won't even hear the shot, and his
security won't have much if any of a chance to track you down anyway.
That is, provided of course, you suppressed your flash. If not, you
might as well hold a large white flag above your head because you just
told them were you are.


Digger
Message no. 53
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:47:21 -0400
On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:07:25 -0600 TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
writes:
>James Lindsay wrote:
>
>> This kind of detail can only benefit an RPG, IMHO. I'm not saying
that
>> actual rules need to exist for detecting such weapons being fired, but
a
>> small sidebar containing useful knowledge such as this could aid a
referee
>> create a better atmosphere in his or her campaign.
>
> The problem you run into is that a lot of people don't know that
much
>about firearms, and spending a lot of time an effort providing precise
>stats and a lot of gory detail would not be of that much benefit to a
>lot of people that play SR. Personally I think they are better off
>sticking with the basic idea the way they have, and avoid trying to
>burden the system with massive amounts of detail that really aren't that
>necessary.

Ahem. I am of the firm opinion that if you don't want combat detail, you
should be playing White Wolf. =) OTOH, you do have a point, insofar as
the newbies who are mangling the system already don't need more rules to
mangle. Therefore, the logical conclusion would be to include such arcane
intricacies as the effect of muzzle flash on sniper concealment and the
various methods of telling a gun to be quiet in an advanced rules section
of the book, much like Rigger 2 did. Just a random thought.

Oh, and BTW, I'm back. Hi. =)

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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Message no. 54
From: Mamoulian <shine@************.NET>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:39:56 -0700
At 10:20 AM 12/28/97 +0000, you wrote:
>On 26 Dec 97 at 16:58, Oliver McDonald wrote:
>
>
>> The longest ranged and most accurate sniper rifle on record was a
>> browning .50 caliber machine gun, modified for single shot. A
>> canadian used it in Vietnam to successfully assassinate in excess of
>> 25 important targets, <SNIP>

So that's where all the missing farmers are????
>
>
Message no. 55
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 20:56:54 -0600
> Ahem. I am of the firm opinion that if you don't want combat detail, you
> should be playing White Wolf. =) OTOH, you do have a point, insofar as
> the newbies who are mangling the system already don't need more rules to
> mangle. Therefore, the logical conclusion would be to include such arcane
> intricacies as the effect of muzzle flash on sniper concealment and the
> various methods of telling a gun to be quiet in an advanced rules section
> of the book, much like Rigger 2 did. Just a random thought.

Detail is fine, to a certain extent. But common sense has to come into
play somewhere. If you create rules for everything pretty soon all your
doing is adjucating rules and you lose the roleplaying element of the
game. I don't have "rules" to cover sniping with or without flash
suppression. But common sense tells me that if the player isn't using
a flash suppressor my NPC's are probably going to notice, depending on
the situation. I don't need a chapter or two detailing this complete
with several different tables. A simple application of common sense
does quite nicely.

Shadowrun has already acheived a fine balance between realism and
playability. The weapon statistics and characteristics are fine as is.
If I wish to add more detail, I can do so easily enough. For those that
are not knowledgeable about weapons, such detail would detract from the
playability of the game. For those of us that are, (and I'm placing you
in this category by default) a it is a simple matter to add whatever
detail we see fit. Just one man's opinion.

Digger
Message no. 56
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:42:25 -0400
On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 20:56:54 -0600 TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
writes:

> Detail is fine, to a certain extent. But common sense has to come into
>play somewhere. If you create rules for everything pretty soon all your
>doing is adjucating rules and you lose the roleplaying element of the
>game. I don't have "rules" to cover sniping with or without flash
>suppression. But common sense tells me that if the player isn't using
>a flash suppressor my NPC's are probably going to notice, depending on
>the situation. I don't need a chapter or two detailing this complete
>with several different tables. A simple application of common sense
>does quite nicely.
<Snip>

You are correct, and it does work quite nicely that way. However, Common
Sense is hardly a common thing, and I know that quite a lot of details
aren't acted upon by GMs mostly because there's nothing covering that
eventuality in the rules. Personally, when I'm running a game, I let
anyone who has training as a sniper enjoy the presumption of a flash
suppressor and, assuming they've got it in their equipment list, sound
suppressor. Which really throws off anyone who's not trained when they
try to snipe, and then wonder why the cavalry's charging up the hill at
them. =)
Overall, you're right, Digger, all I'm saying is that stuff like that
could all be included in an advanced rules section rather than a sidebar
setup.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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Message no. 57
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:55:08 +0100
George H Metz said on 4:47/17 Oct 97...

> Oh, and BTW, I'm back. Hi. =)

Welcome back :)

Now set your clock to _today_'s date instead of 2 1/2 months ago :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 58
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 05:57:12 -0400
On Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:55:08 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>George H Metz said on 4:47/17 Oct 97...
>
>> Oh, and BTW, I'm back. Hi. =)
>
>Welcome back :)

Why thank you. =)

>Now set your clock to _today_'s date instead of 2 1/2 months ago :)

Why bother? In a month it'll be running 2 weeks behind again anyways. =(

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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Message no. 59
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:03:00 -0600
George H Metz wrote:
> You are correct, and it does work quite nicely that way. However, Common
> Sense is hardly a common thing, and I know that quite a lot of details
> aren't acted upon by GMs mostly because there's nothing covering that
> eventuality in the rules. Personally, when I'm running a game, I let
> anyone who has training as a sniper enjoy the presumption of a flash
> suppressor and, assuming they've got it in their equipment list, sound
> suppressor. Which really throws off anyone who's not trained when they
> try to snipe, and then wonder why the cavalry's charging up the hill at
> them. =)

Hehehe.. well, I guess common sense is becoming more uncommon all the
time, but I personally still don' see much use for instructions on
toothpicks. I'm just concerned that SR might become bogged down with
too many tables, charts and modifiers that it looses it's playability.

> Overall, you're right, Digger, all I'm saying is that stuff like that
> could all be included in an advanced rules section rather than a sidebar
> setup.

I wouldn't mind an advanced rules section, as long as it is done with
moderation.

Digger
Message no. 60
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:42:59 +0100
George H Metz said on 5:57/18 Oct 97...

> >Now set your clock to _today_'s date instead of 2 1/2 months ago :)
>
> Why bother? In a month it'll be running 2 weeks behind again anyways. =(

Because it's a pain in the ass to have to hunt down your messages every
time I close my ShadowRN folder and find there are one or two unread ones
still in it :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 61
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:40:09 +0000
On 28 Dec 97 at 3:09, TODD ROBBINS wrote:

> Zixx wrote:
>
> > I have to disagree. Somewhere on my harddisk I've got a Heckler&Koch
> > weapons catalogue (for police-sevices, IIRC) and there is a description of
> > the MP-5SD3. Somewhere there it says, that it fires super-sonic ammo. Now
> > they wouldn't do that if it negelcted the silencer, would they?
>
> The MP-5SD3 is a submachine gun, not a snipers rifle.

So? The type of gun doesn't matter. We're talking about what happens AFTER
the barrel...:)

> > Now that I think of it...what the hell do plice-forces do with silenced
> > weapons?!
>
> The majority of these are used by the West German government for
> counter terrorist units.

Well, I have an English .pdf-file with that specs. And I know lot's of
people in the German government don't speak any English...;)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 62
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:40:09 +0000
On 17 Oct 97 at 4:47, George H Metz wrote:

[more infos on firearms]
> > The problem you run into is that a lot of people don't know that
> much
> >about firearms, and spending a lot of time an effort providing precise
> >stats and a lot of gory detail would not be of that much benefit to a
> >lot of people that play SR. Personally I think they are better off
> >sticking with the basic idea the way they have, and avoid trying to
> >burden the system with massive amounts of detail that really aren't that
> >necessary.
>
> Ahem. I am of the firm opinion that if you don't want combat detail, you
> should be playing White Wolf. =)

Yeah, SR is a pretty fighting-based game. And most PCs use guns for that.

>OTOH, you do have a point, insofar as
> the newbies who are mangling the system already don't need more rules to
> mangle. Therefore, the logical conclusion would be to include such arcane
> intricacies as the effect of muzzle flash on sniper concealment and the
> various methods of telling a gun to be quiet in an advanced rules section
> of the book, much like Rigger 2 did. Just a random thought.

Well, it only would be a couple of additional numbers. Calibre, tape of
siliencer/suppressor, etc.

> Oh, and BTW, I'm back. Hi. =)

Welcome back. Where have you been? (You disappeared just before we could
really start flaming about that matial-arts topic, George! :))


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 63
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:52:28 GMT
On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 20:56:54 -0600, TODD ROBBINS wrote:

> > Ahem. I am of the firm opinion that if you don't want combat detail, you
> > should be playing White Wolf. =) OTOH, you do have a point, insofar as
> > the newbies who are mangling the system already don't need more rules to
> > mangle. Therefore, the logical conclusion would be to include such arcane
> > intricacies as the effect of muzzle flash on sniper concealment and the
> > various methods of telling a gun to be quiet in an advanced rules section
> > of the book, much like Rigger 2 did. Just a random thought.
>
> Detail is fine, to a certain extent. But common sense has to come into
> play somewhere. If you create rules for everything pretty soon all your
> doing is adjucating rules and you lose the roleplaying element of the
> game. I don't have "rules" to cover sniping with or without flash
> suppression. But common sense tells me that if the player isn't using
> a flash suppressor my NPC's are probably going to notice, depending on
> the situation. I don't need a chapter or two detailing this complete
> with several different tables. A simple application of common sense
> does quite nicely.
>
> Shadowrun has already acheived a fine balance between realism and
> playability. The weapon statistics and characteristics are fine as is.
> If I wish to add more detail, I can do so easily enough. For those that
> are not knowledgeable about weapons, such detail would detract from the
> playability of the game. For those of us that are, (and I'm placing you
> in this category by default) a it is a simple matter to add whatever
> detail we see fit. Just one man's opinion.

No, no, no... you misunderstood my earlier posting. What I was suggesting
was a clearly laid out method of including topic-specific, useful, non-rule
oriented information to the side of the actual rule text. This sidebar
text would not contain actual rules, although the information contained
could be used to "educate" a referee that-- say-- didn't know very much
about "Silencers & Flash Suppressors". The referee could then *choose*
whether or not to use this "trivia" to improve the colour of his or her
campaign, perhaps as an unwritten house rule or something. The goal would
be to provide the referee with additional information about a particular
RPG subject (firearms, vehicles, computers, etc.) without adding any more
rules to the game.

The advantages would be the ability to add richness to a campaign without
having to go out and buy several other topic-specific non-RPG books (if a
desire to learn more about firearms was desired, for example). The
downside, of course, would be additional text within the actual rules,
creating a larger final product (often a bad thing when it comes to
published materials).




James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 64
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:27:38 -0800
James Lindsay wrote:

> No, no, no... you misunderstood my earlier posting. What I was suggesting
> was a clearly laid out method of including topic-specific, useful, non-rule
> oriented information to the side of the actual rule text. This sidebar
> text would not contain actual rules, although the information contained
> could be used to "educate" a referee....

Two words: Shadow comments.

Which is, of course, what I thought the original purpose of all those
>>>>>[Comments.]<<<<<
to be.


-Mb
Message no. 65
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:13:59 GMT
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:27:38 -0800, Matb wrote:

> James Lindsay wrote:
>
> > No, no, no... you misunderstood my earlier posting. What I was suggesting
> > was a clearly laid out method of including topic-specific, useful, non-rule
> > oriented information to the side of the actual rule text. This sidebar
> > text would not contain actual rules, although the information contained
> > could be used to "educate" a referee....
>
> Two words: Shadow comments.
>
> Which is, of course, what I thought the original purpose of all those
> >>>>>[Comments.]<<<<<
> to be.

Yes, although most of those comments are a bit too brief to provide much
more than a mere hint. Any many of them are written specifically to be
misleading (they are, after all, written from the POV of a person living in
that era, instead of a more "text book" explanation).



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 66
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:33:01 -0600
Zixx wrote:

> So? The type of gun doesn't matter. We're talking about what happens AFTER
> the barrel...:)

Well, you've made a few errors in your assessment. The MP5 in question
is sound suppressed, not silenced. The bullet still reaches supersonic
speeds.

> Well, I have an English .pdf-file with that specs. And I know lot's of
> people in the German government don't speak any English...;)

Hmm.. ok, I must admit you've lost me here.

Digger
Message no. 67
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:35:18 -0600
Zixx wrote:

> Yeah, SR is a pretty fighting-based game. And most PCs use guns for that.

Depends entirely on the campaign. Personally I think shadowrunners
should avoid combat whenever and wherever possible.

> Well, it only would be a couple of additional numbers. Calibre, tape of
> siliencer/suppressor, etc.

But unfortunatly you then need to take a lot of other variables into
account. Personally I think SR did a fine job of balancing realism with
playability. Anything else should be left up to the GM to decide how to
adjucate. If you want to add a lot more detail, feel free to do so.

Digger
Message no. 68
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:40:54 -0500
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:42:59 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>George H Metz said on 5:57/18 Oct 97...
>
>> >Now set your clock to _today_'s date instead of 2 1/2 months ago :)
>>
>> Why bother? In a month it'll be running 2 weeks behind again anyways.
=(
>
>Because it's a pain in the ass to have to hunt down your messages every
>time I close my ShadowRN folder and find there are one or two unread
ones
>still in it :(

Fine, twist my arm, why don't you! =) It's been changed, but I was
wondering if anyone knew WHY it might be running slow? Dying CMOS battery
a possibility?

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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Message no. 69
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 03:53:31 -0500
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:40:09 +0000 Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
writes:

>> OTOH, you do have a point, insofar as
>> the newbies who are mangling the system already don't need more rules
to
>> mangle. Therefore, the logical conclusion would be to include such
arcane
>> intricacies as the effect of muzzle flash on sniper concealment and
the
>> various methods of telling a gun to be quiet in an advanced rules
section
>> of the book, much like Rigger 2 did. Just a random thought.
>
>Well, it only would be a couple of additional numbers. Calibre, type of
>siliencer/suppressor, etc.

It's not so much adding the numbers, it's more a matter of telling GMs
"Oh, for people wanting to spot a sniper's muzzle flash - assuming it
isn't suppressed - use this visibility modifier." That sorta thing.

>> Oh, and BTW, I'm back. Hi. =)
>
>Welcome back. Where have you been? (You disappeared just before we could
>really start flaming about that matial-arts topic, George! :))

I suddenly became employed, to the tune of 45-50 hours a week. I've
recently become unemployed again, so I came back. And I think that that
topic just may have ressurected itself. =)

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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Message no. 70
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 03:47:50 -0500
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:40:09 +0000 Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
writes:

>> > Now that I think of it...what the hell do plice-forces do with
silenced
>> > weapons?!
>>
>> The majority of these are used by the West German government for
>> counter terrorist units.
>
>Well, I have an English .pdf-file with that specs. And I know lot's of
>people in the German government don't speak any English...;)

Five words: Special Weapons And Tactics units. aka SWAT teams. Hostage
rescue and, increasingly in the larger cities over on this side of the
Pond, drug busts. If police with silenced submachine guns bothers you,
try the M-21, a sniper version of the M-14 battle rifle with an integral
silencer. I live in a small town. OUR SWAT team has about 4 or 5.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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Message no. 71
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:28:41 +0100
TODD ROBBINS said on 20:33/30 Dec 97...

> > So? The type of gun doesn't matter. We're talking about what happens AFTER
> > the barrel...:)
>
> Well, you've made a few errors in your assessment. The MP5 in question
> is sound suppressed, not silenced. The bullet still reaches supersonic
> speeds.

Actually, it shouldn't go supersonic due to the drilled barrel. The
suppresser has two chambers, one around the drilled portion of the barrel
to reduce the noise made by the gases coming through those holes. The
other chamber catches the gases coming out of the muzzle.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 72
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:12:36 +0000
And verily, did George H Metz hastily scribble thusly...
| Fine, twist my arm, why don't you! =) It's been changed, but I was
|wondering if anyone knew WHY it might be running slow? Dying CMOS battery
|a possibility?

Distinctly. How long do you keep your machine switched off between sessions?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 73
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:37:03 +0000
On 31 Dec 97 at 3:53, George H Metz wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:40:09 +0000 Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
> writes:
>
> >> OTOH, you do have a point, insofar as
> >> the newbies who are mangling the system already don't need more rules
> to
> >> mangle. Therefore, the logical conclusion would be to include such
> arcane
> >> intricacies as the effect of muzzle flash on sniper concealment and
> the
> >> various methods of telling a gun to be quiet in an advanced rules
> section
> >> of the book, much like Rigger 2 did. Just a random thought.
> >
> >Well, it only would be a couple of additional numbers. Calibre, type of
> >siliencer/suppressor, etc.
>
> It's not so much adding the numbers, it's more a matter of telling GMs
> "Oh, for people wanting to spot a sniper's muzzle flash - assuming it
> isn't suppressed - use this visibility modifier." That sorta thing.

Basically what I meant. Besides I always wanted calibres, as I really hate
that people can trade ammo between weapons of the sam class....dunno why, I
just don't like it..

> >> Oh, and BTW, I'm back. Hi. =)
> >
> >Welcome back. Where have you been? (You disappeared just before we could
> >really start flaming about that matial-arts topic, George! :))
>
> I suddenly became employed,

Geee, nasty! ;)

> to the tune of 45-50 hours a week. I've
> recently become unemployed again, so I came back. And I think that that
> topic just may have ressurected itself. =)

Let's hope not. It got kinda heated last time. And maybe Ivy comes
around...

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 74
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:37:03 +0000
On 31 Dec 97 at 3:47, George H Metz wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:40:09 +0000 Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
> writes:
>
> >> > Now that I think of it...what the hell do plice-forces do with
> silenced
> >> > weapons?!
> >>
> >> The majority of these are used by the West German government for
> >> counter terrorist units.
> >
> >Well, I have an English .pdf-file with that specs. And I know lot's of
> >people in the German government don't speak any English...;)
>
> Five words: Special Weapons And Tactics units. aka SWAT teams. Hostage
> rescue and, increasingly in the larger cities over on this side of the
> Pond, drug busts. If police with silenced submachine guns bothers you,
> try the M-21, a sniper version of the M-14 battle rifle with an integral
> silencer. I live in a small town. OUR SWAT team has about 4 or 5.

Freaky. You would think that once they start fireing silenced weapons
aren't nescssary. Espcially SMGs. I mean once they enter a building....Then
again it doesn't make you half as deaf...

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 75
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:37:03 +0000
On 30 Dec 97 at 20:35, TODD ROBBINS wrote:

> Zixx wrote:
>
> > Yeah, SR is a pretty fighting-based game. And most PCs use guns for that.
>
> Depends entirely on the campaign. Personally I think shadowrunners
> should avoid combat whenever and wherever possible.

ACK. But try to tell your players they should never ever fight. Combat is a
whole lot of fun and I wouldn't GM or play without it. I've never ever seen
an RPG based on romantic-films or stuff like that, so go figure...

> > Well, it only would be a couple of additional numbers. Calibre, tape of
> > siliencer/suppressor, etc.
>
> But unfortunatly you then need to take a lot of other variables into
> account. Personally I think SR did a fine job of balancing realism with
> playability. Anything else should be left up to the GM to decide how to
> adjucate. If you want to add a lot more detail, feel free to do so.

It's just a lot of work to figure these things out...:)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 76
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:48:27 +0000
On 31 Dec 97 at 20:37, Zixx wrote:

> On 31 Dec 97 at 3:53, George H Metz wrote:

> > It's not so much adding the numbers, it's more a matter of telling GMs
> > "Oh, for people wanting to spot a sniper's muzzle flash - assuming it
> > isn't suppressed - use this visibility modifier." That sorta thing.
>
> Basically what I meant. Besides I always wanted calibres, as I
> really hate that people can trade ammo between weapons of the sam
> class....dunno why, I just don't like it..
>
I would like to see calibers included in SR third edition. I too do
not like the ease of ammuntion trading between different weapons of
the same class and the fact that you can not exchange ammunition
between weapons of different classes. The 9mm Parra fired from a
Browning High Power (i.e. a pistol) is the same cartridge fire in a
MP-5(i.e. a SMG) and you can get a two shot deringer (i.e. a
hold-out) chambered for it also.

As to why, it either rewards planning, or punishes the lack of
advanced planning on the part of the Runners. Especialy if they rely
on the guards equipment for resupply. [large evil GM grin]. Besides
it adds color with little to no impact on the game system.


David Hinkley
dhinkley@***
Message no. 77
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:40:41 +0000
On 1 Jan 98 at 0:33, Bull wrote:

> Welcome to 1998?
>
> Funk that!
>
> Welcome to 2059!
>
> It's gonna be a wild ride...

....and if not FASA's not getting any money!


> "Wait a minute! First you break up with me, and now you want to sleep with
> me?? What are you... A GUY??"
> -- Michael J. Fox on "Spin City"

Wow. You actually did it....



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:40:41 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Organization: Virtual Poetry
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
In-Reply-To: <199801010545.VAA10919@*****.efn.org>

On 31 Dec 97 at 21:48, David Hinkley wrote:

> On 31 Dec 97 at 20:37, Zixx wrote:

> > Basically what I meant. Besides I always wanted calibres, as I
> > really hate that people can trade ammo between weapons of the sam
> > class....dunno why, I just don't like it..
> >
> I would like to see calibers included in SR third editi
Message no. 78
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:26:38 +0100
Andy Gardner said on 13:05/ 1 Jan 98...

> BTB it says that the Karma Pool refreshes when the characters have a
> chance to catch their breath.

You're lucky Ivy has unsubbed :)

> Once this happens, however the GM defines catching their breath, the
> Pool should return to it's full value.

Yes.

> If somebody has used KP for re-rolling a spell success test they get
> those points back.
> What happens if they locked the spell ?
>
> I know that BTB the pool refreshes and in theory if they cast the
> spell while at home in between runs they would start the next run
> with a full pool.

You can say that KP is only for use in stressful situations, for example
combat. That way, PCs can't go around casting spells when they have all
the time in the world and sustaining them until they need them. IIRC some
or another FASA book recommends this, but I can't recall which one right
now :/ Sascha, what does your index say?

> I'm sure that everybody has had the problem of the mage how cast
> armour, invisiblility or the like and used extra dice and re-rolls to
> get an obscene number of successes.

I've never had that problem. Some players are different than others,
though.

> How many of you use (or agree with) the idea that when the pool
> refreshes only those dice come back for which the action is no longer
> on-going ?

It's a solution that could be very handy when your players do things like
Message no. 79
From: Russ Myrick <ceedawg@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:41:14 -0600
At 10:49 AM 1/2/98 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
# But, what if there was enough corporate paranoia at the time that
# most everyone was encrypting their backups? It'd make sense because
# even the most secure computer system doesn't matter if someone walks
# in and steals your backups. Even if you've got great physical
# security its a small investment to encrypt you backups. And what if
# most everyone was using hardware encryption? You only have to put
# the encryption hardware in a vault behind several layers of physical
# security. If you use encryption software someone can hack it (at
# least that's what you think if you're paranoid :) If the virus had
# the same capabilities as current Black IC and was able to burn out
# hardware then it could have burnt out the encryption chips, making
# the backups worthless. The chips could have been replaced but
# there'd be no way to match the algorithms.

great theory
BUT
most encryption methods used today are at the very least documented.
There the public/private key pair thing, so most people use the same
method, just different keys.
so, if you can recreate the software, which shouldnt be too hard, and hell
Message no. 80
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:50:33 +0000
> > Or a Comet Totem.
>
> You read my mind.BTW visit my new webpage. The url is in my sig.

You just forgot to attach your sig to the letter ... :)

Stefan


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
--------------------
Message no. 81
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 02:01:45 +0000
At 02-Jan-98 wrote Ereskanti:



>Spirits of Firey Firmament are dancing now, waiting in ecstatic joy no doubt.

Yes I can say that, speaking as a phoenix shaman :) Maybe a good day to
summon an ally spirit.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 01:31:42 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Organization: Affilated Artists
Subject: Re: (Screen Name Usage)
In-Reply-To: <ea094ec9.34ac1bf2@***.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

At 01-Jan-98 wrote Ereskanti:

>In a message dated 98-01-01 16:27:04 EST, kravenwing@********.NET writes:

>> I was wondering if you guys would mind me using some of your aliases and
>> shadowtk character names in a non- sr, cyber- punk story?
>> >>>>>[Sure I get a little bit afraid... sometimes.
>> "It's a kind of magic."
Message no. 82
From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 02:22:25 +0000
At 01-Jan-98 wrote Andy Gardner:

>If somebody has used KP for re-rolling a spell success test they get
>those points back.
>What happens if they locked the spell ?

They get the point(s) back.


>I'm sure that everybody has had the problem of the mage how cast
>armour, invisiblility or the like and used extra dice and re-rolls to
>get an obscene number of successes.

No
Since in my game downtime is played too :)

>How many of you use (or agree with) the idea that when the pool
>refreshes only those dice come back for which the action is no longer
>on-going ?

I do and I handle it so

>I.e. The locked spell has been released, not just switched off.
>or the training time for a particular increase is over and the
>increase has finally occured.

Looked spell no, training yes.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:49:50 PST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discuss
Message no. 83
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:46:47 +0100
Regretably, I have no good answer's about the karma pool used during down
time. So far, we have been letting it refresh as normal.

-Lorden
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 03:29:46 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From:
Message no. 84
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:46:47 +0100
Ashlocke said on 11:41/ 2 Jan 98...

> > Nope. It was introduced in the grimmy 1st ed at the same time than the
> > insect spirits.
>
> I'm not sure where you received that information, but you are mistaken.
> Both the 1st Ed Grimoire, Queen Euphoria and the Universal Brotherhood
> were released in 1990, however, the Grimoire was released a few months
> prior to the other two. So, as I said... the Grimoire hinted at spirit
> possession of the type discussed in the Hidden Life power prior to the
> existance of insect spirits being revealed... just prior.

My first edition Grimoire discusses insect spirits, though. Pages 102
through 105 has rules and stats for them, and though the 2nd edition of
the book goes into more detail, there _are_ insect spirits in the original
release.

> That's not really very sound logic, since there are only a couple of
> cases of an insect spirit "departing" and AFAIK all of them involve the
> possession being interrupted before it's complete. There is no case,
> again AFAIK, of a bug departing after possession.

Same here, plus FASA has repeatedly stated (in adventures) that the PCs
_cannot_ save the people who are in the process of being transformed into
in
Message no. 85
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:57:40 GMT
--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:11:28 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Maskig Adept
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
> Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 6:24 PM

> At 05:32 PM 1/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >> > Phys-mages.

> >That is incorrect. Physical Magicians have full access to astral
> >perception and projection per the canon rules. Thus, they aren't
expanded
> >physical adepts, per se. They are a jack of all magical trades.

> Well, I'll jump on this before somebody else does... they get assensing,
> but not projection. They are limited, though only a little, and not as
> limited as some other types of 'adepts'. Just to be clear. And I agree
> they are not just expanded physical adepts, they are the most
> broad-horizoned magicians in terms
Message no. 86
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:28:25 -0600
> ACK!!! Firmament as a an Ally Spirit???? ACK!!!! RUN AWAY!!!! Help, Help,
> Fire, get the water.... ;)
>

I agree especially with Barbie as its controller...... :=<>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:16:45 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: [OT]Missing person
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

I know a lot of people one this list play in Victor Fisher's PBEM, so
I was just curious; has anyone heard from him lately?

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net====
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
=================================================================
Actual Newspaper Headline #33
Enfields Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide

Check out my webpage for the others!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:33:25 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Bull-In-the-Box
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980103084425.007efe70@****.lis.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:44 AM 1/3/98 -0700, Adam J wrote:
# At 10:42 03/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
#
# >Beside
Message no. 87
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:03:44 PST
Disadvantages:-2d for health spells.When challenged a Western dragon
shaman cannot refuse to fight the fight,and will beat the challenger any
way possible.Dragon shamans lose one die for conjuring the spirits of
the forest.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:31:11 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Bull-In-the-Box
In-Reply-To: <005201bd185e$27cd4b80$2906cecf@*****>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Steven A. Tinner said on 10:42/ 3 Jan 98...

> So let's say that we only record 3 of the five sense memory tracks of Bull's
> brain, now how much space do we need? ;-)

Well, you can't just say "Oh, we delete 2 out of 5 senses, so let's
multiply the required memory by 60%". Sight is the most important sense to
humans, so impressions from it probably take up a lot more memory space. I
have no idea what the ratios are, though.

> Besides, I'd actually LIKE to have my memories of smell and taste "reset",
> think how cool it would be to taste things like ice cream, or smell roses
> again for the FIRST time!!

You might hate it :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Salsa shark
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:59:52 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool query
In-Reply-To: <199801020944.KAA10343@*****.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Gurth wrote:

> Andy Gardner said on 13:05/ 1 Jan 98...
>
> > If somebody has used KP for re-rolling a spell success test they get
> > those points back.
> > What happens if they locked the spell ?
> >
> > I know that BTB the pool refreshes and in theory if they cast the
> > spell while at home in between runs they would start the next run
> > with a full pool.
>
> You can say that KP is only for use in stressful situations, for example
> combat. That way, PCs can't go around casting spells when they have all
> the time in the world and sustaining them until they need them. IIRC some
> or another FASA book recommends this, but I can't recall which one right
> now :/ Sascha, what does your index say?
>

Personally, I don't allow karma pool for things like spell locks, except
for permanent expendature of karma, unless the spell lock is "part of the
adventure". For instance, the team is trying to protect a suit and going
to stash him/her at the bottom of a lake. The mage uses a prepared item
to spell lock a breathe water spell, places it on the suit, then turns it
on. I'd allow karma for that, becuase it's part of the adventure. The
mage in my game who has increased reflexes locked, no karma pool. (Except
for a permanent one to buy a success.)


As for summoning, I will allow a mage to use karma pool for that, but
there is a price. Those ka
Message no. 88
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:53:34 GMT
But think of what not being able to remember certain smells might do to
you, it could really bug you, or make you very sad, depending on what
they're linked to for you... For instance, Lilacs always remind me of my
mother.


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:35:10 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: [OT]Missing person
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-01-03 13:33:10 EST, drekhead@***.NET writes:

>
> I know a lot of people one this list play in Victor Fisher's PBEM, so
> I was just curious; has anyone heard from him lately?
>
Victor and I were still exchanging jokes as of the week of Christmas. I think
he was planning a little bit (okay, a long bit) of a vacation, but don't quote
me on that. I haven't been in his PBEM since November or October, so I don't
know more...

-K
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:39:59 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: MASKING!!! (Re: Maskig Adept)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-01-03 16:15:08 EST, vanyel@*******.NET writes:

> Um, that's not what I said is it? I said the mechanics don't support it
> well, and it's yet another attempt to design around something forbidden by
> the rules (at least most of us can agree to that). And if that weren't
> enough, I also don't like the idea. Better?
>
> > -K
>
> Justin :)
>
A bit better, yes. I just got confused with the paragraph for some reason
(shrug). But, as far as the mechanics are concerned. They will handle it,
and handle it well. But that isn't the deciding force. The decision is
whether or not you or your game "flavor" will "handle" it. In this
case,
handle is the wrong word. Accept is probably better. It's at the boundary of
"House Rule" vs. "Common Sense" vs. "Canon Rule" starts
conflicting.

-K
Message no. 89
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 06:26:43 -0600
At 12:57 AM 1/4/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> Nah, when all else has failed... Toxic Wave (calling it by its proper
name...
>> Damn these new-fangled revisionist titles anyhow). Kill everything, and
>> eat a nice, big ol' crater in the ground to boot.
>
>Which book? And I feel that a fire cloud will do just as good with out
>as much collateral damage.And if you want that cast a firewall spell
>(it's in awakenings.)

1) I just like the name a helluva lot better.

2) First ed name for Acid Bomb. Toxic wave has a lot more 'ambiance'.
Standardizing the names was, to my mind, silly.

3) Fire spells are dull. Everyone knows fire spells, and uses them. Acid
spells eat *everything* in their path with gouts of green, evil-smelling
death. And those are their good points. :)


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:08:40 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: MASKING!!! (Re: Maskig Adept)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
> Date: Saturday, January 03, 1998 11:53 PM

> And Justin said ....

<Snip>

> A question of you ... a mage casts a Control Actions onto another person
..
> another mage then perceives the individual being controlled by the
Control
> Actions spell ... what do they see (the perceiving mage gets many
success) ?
> Do they see the person only ? Do they see the spell controlling the
person ?
> Do they know that the spell is controlling the person ? Does the Control
> Actions spell have any effect on the person's aura ?

They see the person's aura. In addition, they notice a Control Actions
spell is active in their aura. They could then deduce that they are being
controlled by another mage via the spell.

> Mike

Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:09:55 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Centering and Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
> Date: Sunday, January 04, 1998 1:04 AM

> There is something I have noticed about Centering is that it is used
mostly to
> get rid of target number modifiers (and for successes also) ... why not
apply
> the same to the modifiers that are associated with drain ... as the base
drain
> for all spells is (Force / 2), any modifier after that can then be
centered
> away ... making some of the higher drain spell somewhat more survivable
for
> the casting mage ...

Nah. IMO, that's just too lenient for mages. As it is, I find it's hard
to find a spell that will really drain a mage heavily anyway. Thus, I
wouldn't allow centering to do that. It's pretty powerful as it is.

> Mike

Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:28:21 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Organization: Affilated Artists
Subject: Re: Karma Pool query
In-Reply-To: <5680.199801031421@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

At 03-Jan-98 wrote Spike:

>[[Snip my masterpiece.]]

>YES!!!!

>And there I was thinking I'd lost it forever...

>Nice one Barbie....
>[He said, as he hit SEND and then SAVE.]

Spike I have all carps on my disk :)

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:30:41 +0100
Reply-
Message no. 90
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:42:45 +0100
And verily, did Wyrmy hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Wyrmy wrote:
|>
|> ishould be the re
| now tryit
|

Now try what?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical
Message no. 91
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 06:57:08 -0600
6 seconds more like it. Hardly any math involved: speed of sound is about
340 m/s, 2000 m / 340 m/s = 5.88 s.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Salsa shark
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:42:45 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Crash of 29
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980103160800.007d6410@***.iquest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jaymz said on 16:08/ 3 Jan 98...

> Ok, here's a good one.
> Most data can be imported by application on multiple platforms, excel on
> the Mac and PC etc.
> but, it does seem like all platforms are converging and there will prolly
> only be one in the SR future, not counting Linux, Free BSD etc.
> so it could be possible that the data could be re-accessed from a different
> platform.
> I know that the backup systems our company use are heterogenous..
> *shrug*

Data isn't the problem when it comes to software -- executables are.
Something written for an 80x86 (PCs) won't run on a 680x0 (Macs, Amigas,
STs, QLs, etc.). Data can be imported on any platform as long as there's
a program that can read it, and therefore it's possible to import a
spreadsheet, for example, ona PC while it was created on a Mac.

The same goes for the ways used to format diskettes and hard drives -- it
shouldn't be all _that_ hard to write a PC program that can read
Mac-formatted 3 1/2" disks, for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Salsa shark
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 92
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 17:53:18 +0000
Dust wrote:
>
> I just got Cybertechnology for Christmas,
>
> Pretty damn interesting book if you ask me. I'm glad I didn't get
> it when I first started playing because the urge to create a munchkinish
> player would have been too great. Anyways I wondering if anyone had used
> any of the unique pieces of cyberware listed in there in any creative
> ways. Does anyone out there have an eye laser? cybertorso? cyberskull?
> has undergone cybermancy?

I've been playing for quite sometime, and the desire to make munchkin
has nothing to do with the amount of time one has been playing or the
really wiz toys you have. It's about attude and how the character is
role played.
I have played characters that are truly awesome in the power levels they
have.

I favor the magically active characters I love to play adepts both
psyical and assorted hermetic types. These characters tend to be pretty
specialized, they are not full mages but can and do increase in power
when they become an iniate. The big thing about the heavy duty cyber is
where did it come from cybermacy is not exactly an inexpensive process.
Then you have to look at the prices that of this other stuff and again
where did it come from, I'm sure That Ares is not going to hand out very
expensive and specialized cyberware to just anyone
if they are going to take the time and trouble to do the really heavy
cyber they are not going to give it to a shawdow runner it's going to go
into a loyal employee...


Regards
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:44:36 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Organization: Affilated Artists
Subject: Re: Halley's Comet
In-Reply-To: <828a125e.34ae80f0@***.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

At 03-Jan-98 wrote Ereskanti:

>In a message dated 98-01-03 10:12:52 EST, barbie@**********.COM writes:

>> I know all that Keith, but I was refering to the char Barbie,
>> as phoenix shaman can she conjure spirits of the great firy firmament and
>> to have on of those as an ally spirit could be possible then.
>>
>ACK!!! Firmament as a an Ally Spirit???? ACK!!!! RUN AWAY!!!! Help, Help,
>Fire, get the water.... ;)

ROTFLMAO

Seems to me that you have understand what I hinted :):)

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:47:07 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.
Message no. 93
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:26:36 -0600
Sorry I was half asleep when I wrote that was supposed to be Vechicle
weapon
typo and brain cramps sorry...

> > You seem to almost if not totally clue less as to what sniper rifles are
> > why they work the way they do.

That comment was in regards to what seemed to be something almost tech
related
a sniper rifle is a very specailized piece of equiptment and really
can't be used for much else.

> Ah, so you do mean me. Perhaps you should take a good hard look at my post
> before finalizing your opinion of me. NOWHERE did I use the term "sniper
> rifle"; the term I used was "sniping". ANY ranged weapon *can* be
used for
> sniping (albeit, some weapons are better designed for that task than
> others).

I don't have a negitive opinion about you and it is improving at this
time
I hope you didn't form a negitve opinion of me from that other post...

> If you would have bothered to even read the last sentence of my post (and
> seen the two smilies and intentional grammatical errors), an intelligent
> person could have surmised that maybe I was kidding. This "burstfire
> sniper rifle" thread has gotten a bit stale and I was simply trying to add
> a bit of humour to this nearly dry subject.

heehehehehe

Regards
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 17:31:29 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: [OT]Missing person
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 13:16 03/01/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>I know a lot of people one this list play in Victor Fisher's PBEM, so
>I was just curious; has anyone heard from him lately?
>

Well, last what I heard from him, was a happy new year... ;) Seriously
though, I suspect it's the work that's keeping him busy. I've written him a
mail a few days back, and he hasn't replied yet, so....

CU'round,

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:15:33 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Centering and Drain
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

And Justin said ...

> > There is something I have noticed about Centering is that it is used
> mostly to
> > get rid of target number modifiers (and for successes also) ... why not
> apply
> > the same to the modifiers that are associated with drain ... as the base
> drain
> > for all spells is (Force / 2), any modifier after that can then be
> centered
> > away ... making some of the higher drain spell somewhat more survivable
> for
> > the casting mage ...
>
> Nah. IMO, that's just too lenient for mages. As it is, I find it's hard
> to find a spell that will really drain a mage heavily anyway. Thus, I
> wouldn't allow centering to do that. It's pretty powerful as it is.
>
I know Justin, but some people would argue the point royally that centering
can do it anyway ... I don't even use it very often either ... though in my
more munchkinish days with Rose (a pc of mine) it always came in handy
whenever she cast Hellblast ...

Mike

"When all else fails, Hellblast will do just nicely."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:19:14 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From:
Message no. 94
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:28:50 PST
In a message dated 98-01-04 07:53:25 EST, you write:

> >I agree especially with Barbie as its controller...... :=<>
>
> What did this mean, realy? :)
> You don`t the char, so how can you judge? :)
>
Barbi, I think Wyrmmi is somewhat afraid of having a woman in 'control', if
you get my drift ....

:)

Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 17:53:18 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
In-Reply-To: <34AE9159.7E15A9F6@****.com>
MIME-Ver
Message no. 95
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:42:04 +0000
In my experience, people have to be forced (!) to take the time to
backup even the most important data, either by the computer ("No, I
will not work any further until you made a BU, and there's no 'cancel'
button!") or by someone standing behind them ("_/NOW!/_"), and even
then...

I had fun with an office I really had convinced to make backups at
least once per week. One day they showed up, and whined, cause their
computer's HD crashed - with all the adresses they needed. No prob, I
think, there's a BU. There was... they backuped on "Disk D", because it
"was _much_ faster then the MO you gave us". Great. Of course, "D" was
just another partition of their 5.something GB HD.

Backups?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | God is real |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| - |
| \___ __/ | | unless declared |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | integer. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | -- ??? |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:19:14 PST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: barrier q (gurth's)- what they stop
Content-Type: text/plain

>> BTW, best use of barrir I've ever seen- we are inside an aquaduct and
have to disarm a bomb. I say "gee, it would be nice if we were dry."
Mage helps by stopping water flow with Barrier. We all turn and
>>glare- "why didn't you do that 20 minutes ago?".

>Hmm... physical barrier spells don't stop gases, but do they stop
liquids? I think they don't, and water will seep through the barrier
>(though not at the same rate as a gas could come through it).

Barrier spells should, IMO, stop liquids- liquid molecules are fairly
strongly attacked. OTOH, I don't
Message no. 96
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:50:54 +0000
D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@*********.com)
Photography/Design

Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at: www.lowephoto.com.

--
GC3.1 GCA$ d- s: a- C++++ U P L E? W+ N++ o K? w-- O- M++$ V--
PS++ PE Y+ PGP- t 5 X+ R+++$ tv- b++ DI++ D--- G++ e++ h--- r++ u+
--
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:51:26 -0600
Reply-To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: My new website !!!!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Oh and finaly we see the light :)
> Was it so hard to create a sig? :)

Yes.:=<>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:42:39 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bull-In-the-Box
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey, just another thought about Bull being in a Box. When and how is he
going to sleep? I mean, being in a computer he won't have the physiological
problem of fatigue poisons, but perhaps there will still be a latent
psycological problem because he can't get any REM sleep.

So Bull is safe from becoming a Wendiogo, but he's quickly going insane
unless his comrades find a way to 'sleep' him. (I've got a quick-key set up
on my PowerBook, but I doubt that'd help him.)

Just doing my part.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@*********.com)
Photography/Design

Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at: www.lowephoto.com.

--
GC3.1 GCA$ d- s: a- C++++ U P L E? W+ N++ o K? w-- O- M++$ V--
PS++ PE Y+ PGP- t 5 X+ R+++$ tv- b++ DI++ D--- G++ e++ h--- r++ u+
--
Message no. 97
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:07:00 -0700
This seems a pretty good definition to me. Nothing about one-shot
one-kill and all that movie stuff... <grin>
And pray tell, what's the difference of stealth between one shot and
three shots? AFAIK if you have a flash supressor, burst won't show
up either... And sound is not something you worry about...

BTW: You could put things like IMO (In my opinion) in your texts.
Otherwise, you risk sounding like a condescending... well... person.
;P

<snip (e?)>
> > >In some cases at
> > >ranges of 2 km or more.
> >
> > In very few cases... other than a lucky shot by Hathcock with an M2
> > (when an enemy paused by the very rock he'd been sighting in on) the
> > longest shot I've heard of is 1800m, in the Gulf, with a Light-50.
> >
> > 600-800m is more usual, especially with 7.62mm or .300 weapons.
>
> I'm taking i
Message no. 98
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:12:07 -0700
When you look at the weapon ranges and capabilities in SR, you'll see
the tech hasn't improved by that much...

<snip>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
What, us .BATs? V^^^\_o^o_/^^^V
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:45:53 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Russ Myrick <ceedawg@*********.COM>
Subject: FeatherStrike
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Prelude:
<Tues. 11:54GMT>
Log entry: Balboa Park, Tues. 3:54amPST.
We've been at this three days now. The stake out I mean. Still now
sight of the pickup man, but Trixxy says we have competition watching
the drop too.
Some k
Message no. 99
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:22:39 PST
Nowhere in any of the sections on spellcasting or Karma is this view
mentioned. The section on the Karma Pool states that it is used for
short-term butt-saving. The KP is a game mechanic to give the game some
flavor, to allow heroic deeds and miracle saves. Aside from buying
successes, the KP is never premanently used. It is supposed to refresh
so the characters can perform more heroic deeds in the next scene.

The section on giving Karma to Free Spirits is the only place that might
give you the impression that Karma actually exists in some form. In that
reference, Karma represents the (meta)human spirit, life ex
Message no. 100
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:25:00 PST
> So while the B/R activity is going on the Karma is invested in the person
> doing the repair. He is constantly mulling over the problem in the back of
> his mind. I see the karma allocated to the person not the vehicle. This is
> namely because I see no way a mundane can invest karma like a mage would.
> The mechanism should be different. Once the B/R is acomplished the tech
> will still be mulling over it for a while but gradually he'll recover his
> perspective and get the karma back. This is more a case of burning karma
> for extra mental energy on a problem.

A mundane can't invest K
Message no. 101
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:32:09 PST
> > If you use
> >KP on conjuring, does the KP stay 'used' till whatever you conjured
> >goes away? If you use KP on Enchanting, does it ever come back?
> This I'm not sure on. Is the karma invested in the skill of conjuring or in
> some sort of spell involved in conjuring. I'm leaning to saying the Karma
> dissapates once the conjuring is completed. For the enchanting I'd say it's
> locked in the iteam until it's destroyed.

Why? What's the difference between enchanting and conjuring? You seem
to feel that Magic has the ability to suck up Karma with it, due to the
metaphysics involved. The KP is supposed to represent EXPERIENCE, not
some special life force that ONLY mages can consciously dire
Message no. 102
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:41:26 +0000
George H Metz wrote:

(re: Masking as a Concealment-type power in use in the Astral)

> >And if mages were spirits (of any sort) I might be tempted to agree with
> >you. (Actually, I see any possible mechanics working by rather
> >different means.) However, this relies on extending the Perception
> >tests able to be altered by Concealment to the Astral, which is rather
> >house-rulish.

> Actually, there's nothing to say that a dead mage can't become a spirit,
> if he or she can find a way to halt the Essence loss after their body
> dies. It's just finding the way that's the trick. =)

That's "spirit" as in ghost, rather than nature spirit/elemental.
Without referring to the BBB, I don't recall ghosts or specters getting
the Concealment power.

Anyone ever have a PC become a ghost? The ghosts in SR seem..
underwhelming; I know they're a staple in most of my campaigns (a lot
more fun for mundanes to interact with than spirits, fer sure.)

> I'll also throw out a thought on HOW "masking" should be applied. I know
> a great deal of you still are discussing whether or not it SHOULD be
> applied, but this may make life a little simpler by looking at it from a
Message no. 103
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:03:57 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: [semi-OT] Re: FeatherStrike
In-Reply-To: <yam7309.1621.137179496@****.amigaworld.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Barbie said on 3:05/ 5 Jan 98...

> At 04-Jan-98 wrote Russ Myrick:
>
> >Prelude:
> >[BIG snip]
>
> Ok, what should this supose to be, he?

Please explain to me why Russ' post deserves a thwap? It was
Shadowrun-related, it wasn't some kind of silly or stupid remark or
question, and it wasn't an attempt to start a flame war either.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Salsa shark
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: reworked damage-system
In-Reply-To: <199801042248.XAA27450@*********.netsurf.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Zixx said on 23:50/ 4 Jan 98...

> > By magics description, armor has NO effect on combat magic- the damage
> > is pumped through the aura! Thats both a useful game effect, and an
> > important shadowrun "fact" of magic.
>
> For mana-spells, yes. But a powerbolt of fireball is resisted with armor. I
> don't know why they wrote in the Grimoire that armor doesn't help, but a
> fireball hardly comes from the inside of a target.

Fireballs do come from inside the target, just like any other combat
spells. If you want a fireball that attacks from the outside, you need to
design a manipulation spell that does much the same as the current
Fireball spell in SRII and the Grimoire. Combat spells always destroy
their targets from the inside, and just the fact that Fireball sets fire
to them doesn't mean it has to attack from the outside IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Salsa shark
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:41:45 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Year of Earthdawn
In-Reply-To: <199801050936.KAA10640@****.u
Message no. 104
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:28:55 -0600
At 05-Jan-98 wrote Ereskanti:

>In a message dated 98-01-04 22:23:57 EST, t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE
>writes:

>> > You would turn me into a flaming pile of ashes,And I figured the char
>> > was like the listmenber.Completely thwap-happy :=<>
>>
>> Nah...She's more the type, who run around naked in garages while other
>> folks cut thier arms and drive needles into the wounds. Besides, she likes
>> bondage...
>>
>> :)
>>
>Oh yes, now it's my turn to ROTFLMAO....


hmmmmm, hmmmmm

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:54:53 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Organization: Affilated Artists
Subject: Re: Halley's Comet
In-Reply-To: <199801050321.EAA31490@*********.netsurf.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

At 05-Jan-98 wrote Zixx:

[snip]


I don`t think this is an topic which should be discussed here.

SO STOP IT ALL AND EVERY ONE.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 09:10:33 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Carsten Gehling <alvion@****.UNI2.DK>
Subject: Sv: Year of Earthdawn
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> The length of a World is about 5200 years, so (if you assume ED is =
SR's
> history, as has been disputed lately even though it was taken to be =
true a
> few years ago...) it's about 7000 to 7500 years ago.

Hmm... That's a little way before Stonehenge I can see (unless =
geologists and their C-14 tests are mistaken - not likely). But of =
course I can always use my right to use "creative freedom" :-) (Using =
Earthdawn as the history of our world IS already very creative).

- Carsten

www: http://inet.uni2.dk/home/alvion
e-mail: alvion@******.dk
alvion@****.uni2.dk
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:16:51 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRI
Message no. 105
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:52:49 -0600
>It's been brought up before that it doesn't make sense that the Crash
>of 29 could have wiped out so much data, because back-ups would not
>have been affected by the rogue virus since they were offline. It
>would have been a simple matter of waiting until after the virus was
>beaten and loading the back-ups to restore everything back to where
>they were before the crash.

I think that there's a problem, but ... :)

>But, what if there was enough corporate paranoia at the time that
>most everyone was encrypting their backups? It'd make sense because
>even the most secure computer system doesn't matter if someone walks
>in and steals your backups. Even if you've got great physical
>security its a small investment to encrypt you backups. And what if
>most everyone was using hardware encryption? You only have to put
>the encryptio
Message no. 106
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:17:50 -0600
IMO, the virus manifested after some months, perhaps years. During the
first period, it inscribed itself in the data sources manipulated. So, when
the virus was finally beaten by the ECHO team, corporate scientists tried
to recover the data. Because they weren't dumb, they used computers that
weren't connected to the net (I don't we could say matrix at this time) and
discovered no problem because the virus was dormant. When they recovered
all the data, say some months later, the virus activated again finishing to
trash and taint the different informations. After this event, corporations
decided to destroy all their old data, to prevent the virus from coming back.

Because megacorps are like that, many corporations keeped their
contaminated data for a later time and to analyse the virus. This gives
some scenario ideas like a terrorist that has succeded in recovering the
virus and wanting to launch it at the world's face. Having discovered it,
the megacorp sends its *dogs* at the trail of the terrorist. They are in
big drek 'cause if the corporate council ears about this, it will begin a
corp war against the offender. This will surely make the corp use every
ressource. It will have to be discreet too 'cause too many teams would
indiquate an obvious problem. Of course, other corps could be interested,
just as the government...

But even with such an hypothesis, a lot of informations must have been
printed to keep it safe. The main problem is then to redevellop the
different programs for them to be adequate with the new technology. There
are good chances that the crash gave to the major computer groups the
chance to create a new type of computer technology not totally compatible
with the old ones. Even then, most knowledge must have been retrieved.

So, why is the SR's technology so close to the one we actually have? First,
it is a lot more advanced than ours in some domains (like cyberware). The
reason is that after the breakover of '29, most industries adapted to new
needs. This is even more true with the rising of magic. Difficulties with
the population stopped research for some time too. Then, there's the rise
of the corp council. With the monopols they have (each individual doesn't
have but the group does...), re
Message no. 107
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:58:12 -0700
That's not movie stuff that's stright from the USA army sniper school I
attended some years ago.
My instructors where big time into stealth said anything that gives you
away is very bad. Because you can and very likely will be a taget
yourself.

> And pray tell, what's the difference of stealth between one shot and
> three shots? AFAIK if you have a flash supressor, burst won't show
> up either...

Your ignorance is showing and we can consider this converstion at an end
if you can not figure out this simple fact. One shot and one flash are
difficult to trace and locate. Three shorts is a dead give away of your
position via muzzle flash you seem to think that those extra seconds of
light make no diffence in weather or not you will be detected. Light
travels really fast when compared to a bullet or sounds and all that
light from that supressed muzzle flash is definatly enough to give you
away...


> BTW: You could put things like IMO (In my opinion) in your texts.
> Otherwis
Message no. 108
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:18:40 PST
So I have thought about making a special interface for driving
VCR-only vehicle with a datajack...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Amnesia rules - O
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:06:18 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Crash of '29
In-Reply-To: <199801051623.JAA01467@******.carl.org> from "The Bookworm"
at
Jan 5, 98 10:22:16 am
Content-Type: text

The Bookworm wrote:
/
/ On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Andy Gardner wrote:
/
/ > All of the other notes on this subject assume on big thing.
/ > Once you've had your data wiped and your hardware burned you just buy
/ > some replacement hardware parts and recover the back-ups.
/ > Even assuming that your backups are OK, whose going to pay for the
/ > replacement parts ? The moneys in the bank. So is the virus, say
/ > bye-bye to your current bank balance.
/ > I know, I'll pay by credit card. So you use their card machine,
/ > which sends the data via th matrix. Say hello to th virus again.
/ > Even if you get the order through you'll find that the hardware
/ > company can't supply you. Their stock catalogue and their records of
/ > whethe
Message no. 109
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 00:12:26 +0000
Structural Agility physically reshapes the structural dimensions of a vehicle
to take advantage of the improved control offered by Drive-by-Wire systems
(the follow-on descendant of fly-by-wire). In a (meta)human being, this is the
equivalent of radically altering the shape of the body (arms and legs moved
around relative to their position with the torso, rerouting the circulatory
flow of blood, and so on). So the conceptual equivalent of Structural Agility
in a flesh-and-blood character would be a genetically-engineered automaton
optimized for agility.

IMO.

-- Jon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:13:22 PST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberware
Content-Type: text/plain

>Let's see, Azania has at least one, and they supposedly know a pretty
good bit
>about cybermancy ... Japan also has the stuff ... the Jewish religion
knows
>about cybermancy (a cool episode of X-Files is where this came from) as
>knowledge of the Golem is within one of their tects on mysticism ...
>
>Mike
>

"The Jewish religion"? You mean as a whole? Funny, my gf is jewish
and it's news to her...


-Vagabond (nomad74@*******.com)
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:18:40 PST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Content-Type: text/plain

>Damon Harper wrote:
>>
>> >But, that *is* how the military uses snipers. One Shot, One Kill.
And
>> >then get the hell out of Dodge.
>>
>> That's part-true. But let's remember the military isn't the only
ones
>> to use snipers. How about law-enforcement? They may use them to
>> neutralize a target, but they also use to cover the people that are
>> already there.
>
>LEO's misuse the term sniper what a (Law enforcement officer) does when
>he is a 'sniper' is actually an overwatch and does not even have near
>the stealth nessary to be a ture sniper.

Really? I guess those Guilli-suits are just decoration then.
Thanks, I'm such a dumbass and you know it all. I feel so enlightened.

I refuse to continue bantering with you because not matter what
anyone else says your right and their wrong. No one here has insulted
your position, but you do not hesitate to insult theirs. And if you
went to sniper school for anything but a high school field-trip, I'm
nancy carigan.


-Vagabond (nomad74@*******.com)
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:07:16 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: JonSz
Message no. 110
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:54:14 +0000
If you play around with the design point cost of the car (by adding new design
options or adding modifications as design options), it's the conceptual
equivalent of designing a new model of vehicle. (To use your example, the new
car would be a Saab Dynamit 788, instead of a Saab Dynamit 778).

Hope this helps,

-- Jon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:29:02 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [semi-OT] Re: FeatherStrike
In-Reply-To: <7041.199801051632@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Spike said on 16:32/ 5 Jan 98...

> Come on Gurth. You know what happened with the Tea, last time, don't you....
> :)

I know what happened with the tea, but that was something else entirely --
namely, Blaze responding IC to OOC remarks, and she deserved all the
thwaps she got :)

This, however, looked to me like Russ had written a (very) short story
that he wanted to share with the rest of us. Only when he said he
confused the addresses did I find out it was actually intended for TK.

> I think it's because people are more used to ShR fiction going to the tk
> list, and rules discussions going here....

Yes, however that still doesn't justify thwapping anyone for posting
fiction to ShadowRN, IMnotatallHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
In the garden.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 111
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:27:34 GMT
Barbie said on 13:13/ 5 Jan 98...

> >Please explain to me why Russ' post deserves a thwap? It was
> >Shadowrun-related, it wasn't some kind of silly or stupid remark or
> >question, and it wasn't an attempt to start a flame war either.
>
> Because for in character telling its the wrong list, as I had said in the part
> which you haded sniped.

I read that, yes. It still doesn't explain to me why he should be thwapped
for it, though. I said this to Spike once, and I'm saying it to you now: I
think you thwap people way too easily. Somebody only has to make one
little mistake (in your eyes) and at least one thwap fills the screen, if
not more. Now if they were amusing thwaps it might be okay, but they
usually consist of "Snip your messages!", "Delete your Reply-To
field!",
"Don't do <whatever>!!", etc. followed by the same old ASCII art we've all
seen a thousand times already.

What I'm saying is that I don't mind thwaps, but consider this: used too
often, they lose their impact. Instead, try writing up something that
will entertain the rest of the list, with the thwap built into it
somewhere. Much better all around, if you ask me.

</rant>

> And if he wants to tell here a story IC, then would be an intro to it
> appropiate, or?

That would be preferable, yes, so we all know what it's about. But he
confused two addresses, for gods' sake!

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
In the garden.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:51:22 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Hedley <hedley@********.COM>
Subject: Groom Lake / Area 51
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Does anyone know if FASA has covered the Groom Lake / Area 51 "mysteries" in
any of it's SR sourcebooks? Has anyone addressed it in their campaigns?

Hedley
http://box.pcnetinc.com/hedley/shadowrun
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 00:12:26 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
In-Reply-To: <34AFF07C.83FAB705@****.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0

In article <34AFF07C.83FAB705@****.com>, s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
writes
>Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> Depends how you define "sniping"...
>
>Sniping is about stealth and bust fire is not something that can be done
>with great stealth.

Firing .50BMG is not something that can be done with great stealth.
Especially not with the muzzle brakes on many of those rifles.

>> Or about one man with a rifle pinning down a rifle platoon, that's now
>> leaderless and out of comms because he killed the OC and the signaller.
>> The platoon know there's a sniper, but they don't know where he is, and
>> if they continue the advance he'll kill more of them. Meanwhile, the
>> sniper's partner is calling in mortar fire on the immobilised troops.
>
>That is a sniper backed ambush not a sniper opperation.

The sniper is stopping the advance of an entire platoon.

The mortar fire is a bonus.

>A sniper has does not have the time to select point
>targets and direct a fire mission. Someone besides that sniper has to
>direct the fire mission to seprate opperations.

That's why you may notice I said his partner was calling in the fire?

>> In very few cases... other than a lucky shot by Hathcock with an M2
>> (when an enemy paused by the very rock he'd been sighting in on) the
>> longest shot I've heard of is 1800m, in the Gulf, with a Light-50.
>>
>> 600-800m is more usual, especially with 7.62mm or .300 weapons.
>
>I'm taking into consideration improved tech of 2058 to account for the
>increased range

Then you'll be sadly disappointed with Shadowrun, as the rules are
written. In your typical European countryside, it's difficult to even
_get_ a 2km shot.

>> That's only a small part of what sniping's about.
>
>That's in a nut shell it's all about stealth and nothing more.

It's about accurate long range fire. Doesn't matter how stealthy a
sniper is if he can't hit the target.

>> What about law enforcement work, for instance?
>
>Stealth what good is an overwatch if everyone knows you have one and
>where he overwatch is located.

It makes people behave themselves.

>> Given that Hathcock used to snipe with a M2HB heavy machine gun, I'd say
>> that the definition's more flexible than you seem to believe.
>
>That was for the rounds M2's are nasty and he was also at very extream
>ranges when he used them.

So? He was sniping with a machine gun, and not from a concealed position
either.

Most WW1 snipers had no chance of concealment, hence the popularity of
"sniper plates" which were sufficient to stop enemy bullets. The
sniper's location was known, he was merely very hard indeed to hit.

Again, your definition is much too narrow. What about the fUSSR practice
of issuing a SVD sniper rifle per rifle squad, for instance? These
snipers were advancing as part of an infantry unit, providing longer-
ranged aimed fire than possible with AKs and RPKs.
>
>>
Message no. 112
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:42:49 -0500
Okay, since I have yet to see any stats or design specs for the "Cetacean
Drive", I have found the rules for it and am going to write them up myself ...
which I would like to see others begin doing (yes, that was me ranting) ...

Cetacean Drive
Description This is a different variation of using the mechanical limbs from
the newly released Rigger 2 sourcebook. The
Message no. 113
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 04:50:06 -0500
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:39:49 -0600, s c rose wrote:

> I just see it as a less than nessary detail. If such rules where
> included into the
> shadowrun universe. I would not use them and stay with the fast and easy
> damage code
> based rounds.

Agreed. Shadowrun just wouldn't be the same if its current "ambiguity"
were messed with. IOW, it just wouldn't feel like Shadowrun anymore if you
were to begin introducing harder, more realistic weapon statistics. Fans
would be asking "Wha' happened to ma game?"

> > Such a market would still be around in 2058. Just think of what would
> > happen if only one calibre of light pistol ammunition (6L) was available in
> > 2058. A smart corporation would spot an opportunity for profit by
> > listening to their customers and developing a slightly more powerful
> > cartridge-- perhaps a 7L.
>
> Prehaps but I happen to think the cost of production and demands of
> military and/or para military
> sales would make the n
Message no. 114
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 05:06:50 -0500
Games that are more realistic (which attempt to include information to
teach readers a bit more about how automobiles and firearms really work in
Real Life) can provide advantages both in and *outside* the game. An
interest in firearms is an extremely serious thing to many people and to
portray them inaccurately in a RPG or film can be counterproductive. With
your own admitted experience with firearms I am sure you will agree that
there are certain roleplaying and movies that are way off target when it
comes to modeling Real Life (anyone up for a little John Woo?). An
attempted real-life application of such "knowledge" learned from a RPG or
other dubious source could be very dangerous (holding a gun on a person
less than a metre away, firing warning shots into the air, or chambering a
round of ammunition in an attempt to intimidate are just three examples
where such knowledge could get you killed).

This is not to say that RPGs should be burdened down with rule upon rule
and stat upon stat to ensure that it is as realistic as possible. The
trick is to do so without slowing down the game mechanics too much (and
Shadowrun combat is already quite s-l-o-w). Everyone has their own opinion
as to where this line should be drawn. If I were to design a RPG from
scratch I'd probably stick with a good core set of rules similar to GURPS
or CORPS (perhaps simplifying them a bit). I would then add sidebars
containing colourful text explaining how, for example, flash suppressor and
silencers "worked" in Real Life. A brief, accurate description would be
included, along with optional game rules for those referees interested in
adding such realism to their games. Whether or not such rules were used,
they could still be used to educate players as to how things work in Real
Life. Come to think about it, this pretty much describes CORPS :)

I play Traveller, a science fiction RPG nearly twenty year
Message no. 115
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:55:33 +0000
Thanks for NightRain, Bull, Spike, Wyrmy and Canthros for making
this a warm welcome back. And yes I remember the Mc23 happy meals with
special toys inside, mine had a special PGP decoder inside. B>]#
And if you think being nice to me will stop my rants, well... you'd
be right for a while. B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:08:33 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Signal to Noise
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.980108014904.23155I-100000@*******.dialix.com.au>
from "Lady Jestyr" at Jan 8, 98 01:50:59 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message no. 116
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:33:37 PST
>Hey whats the most speed someone has put in
>
>a car?
>
5 kg, anymore and the cops aren't gonna buy the sugar routine.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:14:35 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: niteGlo Messiah <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Big 8
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hello All,

What are the eight companies in the Big 8?
These are the companies I know about:

Ares HQ is in Detroit; run by Damien Knight
Aztechnology HQ in Aztlan; runs the country
Fuchi HQ in Japan; make really good decks
Mitsuhama HQ in Japan; just another nasticorp (?)
Renraku HQ in Japan; made Arcology; makes cyberware
Saeder Krup
Message no. 117
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:15:01 -0500
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:03:57 -0600 s c rose <scrose@****.COM> writes:

>> > > Depends how you define "sniping"...
>> >
>> > Sniping is about stealth and bust fire is not something that can be
>> > done with great stealth. Between muzzle flash and sound even with a
>> > 2 to 6 secound delay from the bullet to the sound reaching the taget
>> > you are dealing with something which would give away your position.
>>
>> Uhhh... Sorry, but could you please explain to us, poor souls, how
>> did you come up with the Sole and Ultimate Definition of Sniping?
>
>Sniper opperations are a very specialized area of military and/or
>paramilitary opperations.
>it's about stealth and you seem to have missed that point. The chances
>of being exposed go up each and every time you shot from the same
>position. A sniper becomes a taget and exposed when they do stupid stuff
>like burst fire and several shots from the same position.

And the danger to a sniper goes through the roof if they attempt to move
with enemy troops in the area on alert. Did your Army sniper school tell
you that? They should've. But for some reason I just can't buy the fact
that you went through ANY sniper school. MAinly because you're being rude
and not making much sense.

<snip>
>> This seems a pretty good definition to me. Nothing about one-shot
>> one-kill and all that movie stuff... <grin>
>
>That's not movie stuff that's stright from the USA army sniper school I
>attended some years ago.
>My instructors where big time into stealth said anything that gives you
>away is very bad. Because you can and very likely will be a taget
yourself.

Neighbor, I'm here to tell you right now that mission completion gives
you away. If you have to take down 5 targets when you only thought you'd
be taking one down, then you'd better damned well do it quick, from the
same position, and THEN worry about moving.

>> And pray tell, what's the difference of stealth between one shot and
>> three shots? AFAIK if you have a flash supressor, burst won't show
>> up either...
>
>Your ignorance is showing and we can consider this converstion at an end
>if you can not figure out this simple fact. One shot and one flash are
>difficult to trace and locate. Three shorts is a dead give away of your
>position via muzzle flash you seem to think that those extra seconds of
>light make no diffence in weather or not you will be detected. Light
>travels really fast when compared to a bullet or sounds and all that
>light from that supressed muzzle flash is definatly enough to give you
>away...

You know, I have to thank you for providing amusement on such a dreary
day. I really just cannot believe you called Paul ignorant! The man
probably has more military experience in his pinky than you can imagine.
Three shots at night, in quick succession, are not going to give away
your position. Why? Because by the time any of them realize there's a
sniper, three of them are dead(assuming the sniper's any good). A flash
suppressor works in such a way that you have to be practically looking
straight down the barrel to see any light from the gun. Anyone seeing
that should be dead before they can react.

>
>> BTW: You could put things like IMO (In my opinion) in your texts.
>> Otherwise, you risk sounding like a condescending... well... person.
>
>Prehaps that was the intent for it is not just my opinion but what is
>the content of actual US Army sniper school...

And perhaps, regardless of your intent, you ought to consider being
polite when posting to a public list, regardless of what you THINK you
know is fact. It makes people a lot more likely to pay attention to you.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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Message no. 118
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:33:57 -0500
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:22:39 PST Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
writes:
>>Easy Gurth. I wasn't talking abou that being impossible, but about
hating a
>>gun-nut to buy, say "assault rifle-ammo", cause IRL you don't go into a
>>gun-shop and buy "assault rifle-ammo" or "heavy pistol-ammo",
you get
"5.56
>>NATO FMJs" or ".45ACP JHP" or whatever....
>
> Okay, then, YOU tell ME what kind of ammo goes into an Ares
>Predator.

Sure, that's simple. UCAS's most popular handgun? It's GOTTA be .45
ACP....

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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Message no. 119
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 05:52:50 -0600
George H Metz wrote:
>
> On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:03:57 -0600 s c rose <scrose@****.COM> writes:
>
> >> > > Depends how you define "sniping"...
> >> >
> >> > Sniping is about stealth and bust fire is not something that can be
> >> > done with great stealth. Between muzzle flash and sound even with a
> >> > 2 to 6 secound delay from the bullet to the sound reaching the taget
> >> > you are dealing with something which would give away your position.

That's where the stealth factor I keep metioning comes in. Burst fire
has no stealth value and does not add to your being able to complete a
mission. You seem to think being a grunt in some way makes one polite
and does not I'm appolgize if I have offended you in some way. My
military experiance is not based on the europe model but in the south
and central american mode of fighting under trained nationalist or semi
trained para miliary guards.

> <snip>
> >> This seems a pretty good definition to me. Nothing about one-shot
> >> one-kill and all that movie stuff... <grin>
> >
> >That's not movie stuff that's stright from the USA army sniper school I
> >attended some years ago.
> >My instructors where big time into stealth said anything that gives you
> >away is very bad. Because you can and very likely will be a taget
> yourself.
>
> Neighbor, I'm here to tell you right now that mission completion gives
> you away. If you have to take down 5 targets when you only thought you'd
> be taking one down, then you'd better damned well do it quick, from the
> same position, and THEN worry about moving.

We are still talking one body one bullet and aimed shots and you think
staying in one place and fireing five times is not going to get you dead
go ahead and try it I'll even fly in for the memorial service. I'll take
my chances in changing position before firing the next shot it takes an
real and substantial amount of time to move 500 to 700 meters unless you
are flat level field moveing from compromised position to one that is
not known improves your odds getting that second shot off and not being
dectected. If the area is so thick with hostile forces that a sniper is
unable to leave the position that the first target was engaged from are
they are dead anyways.

You can count on at least a minute and probally over two minutes and
even a small change in position can make a diffence. If my position has
been compromised to the extent that I can not move at all then I'm dead
if I fire even one time. The sniper should have aborted the mission and
just layed low to engage the target at another time. I think this about
US Army doctoran which is use semi auto fire and make every shot count.
If you ctaully think bust fire can engage three targets good luck. Bust
fire or any type of automatic fire is not as accurate as one well aimed
shot and does not add to being effective muzzle climb alone throws the
second and third shot off.

I presonally would abort the mission if I found the intel I was given
was that messed up. Better to abort the mission regroup and not end up
dead. By enganging from a poor tactical position you will not be albe to
complete the mission and will be very dead.

> >> And pray tell, what's the difference of stealth between one shot and
> And perhaps, regardless of your intent, you ought to consider being
> polite when posting to a public list, regardless of what you THINK you
> know is fact. It makes people a lot more likely to pay attention to you.

Why I'm not polite in outside of the net why should I sugar coat things
so you don't get offended.
You can always skip over my posts, I'm fairly sure a combination of next
and delete will filter my
offensive messages quite nicely and take little to no time and/or effort
on your part.

Regards and consider this converstion at an end
Message no. 120
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:28:42 +0000
In article <34B60F92.7149D44B@****.com>, s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
writes
>My
>military experiance is not based on the europe model but in the south
>and central american mode of fighting under trained nationalist or semi
>trained para miliary guards.

Whereas mine was provided by veterans of the South Atlantic, of the
Gulf, of Bosnia and of Northern Ireland (the last being one where they
were far more likely to recieve than to give sniper fire).

I can see why you have a different viewpoint, and it's from a theatre I
know little about. I'm not telling you you're wrong for that theatre:
merely that some of your assertions would have got you injured,
captured, or forced to abort in the Falklands and Bosnia. NI, you've got
a point, but that's a terrorist rather than a military campaign.

>We are still talking one body one bullet and aimed shots and you think
>staying in one place and fireing five times is not going to get you dead
>go ahead and try it I'll even fly in for the memorial service.

1982. Most snipers are in guessable locations: there's no cover for a
move to somewhere else. Problem is, what are you going to do about it?
They're out of effective section-weapons range, the mortar platoon is
out of ammo, and there's nobody else to give you fire support right now,

(The answer is "bring up a sniper of your own", BTW).

Like Hathcock, the Argentinians used M2s in sangars as effective sniper
weapons, and those _were_ burst fire: they were also extremely difficult
to deal with, typically requiring that the sangar be blown apart with a
MILAN ATGM or else manoevred around.

Similar situations on both sides applied in Bosnia. Snipers on all sides
frequently worked from fortified positions.


You deal with the terrain and the conditions you are ordered to fight
in. The rules are not the same for every situation. And you remember
you're part of a team, not a solo artiste.

>I think this about
>US Army doctoran which is use semi auto fire and make every shot count.

British Army snipers use the L96A1, which is bolt action. All you have
is single shot. (a beautiful weapon BTW).

>I presonally would abort the mission if I found the intel I was given
>was that messed up.

Enemy's coming through. Your orders are "delay them and inflict
casualties". Aborting "because you got the wrong intelligence data" is
not an option, unless you have a perverse desire to be court-martialled
for cowardice.

Your definition of sniper work is too narrow, I fear.

>Why I'm not polite in outside of the net why should I sugar coat things
>so you don't get offended.

Because if you don't, we get offended. And instead of a friendly
discussion we have a raucous argument. And that defeats the purpose of
this mailing list.

So find some sugar, and be polite. Please?

>You can always skip over my posts, I'm fairly sure a combination of next
>and delete will filter my
>offensive messages quite nicely and take little to no time and/or effort
>on your part.

Or you can be deleted from the list, to spare us the trouble (and for
some of us, the expense) of downloading your posts merely in order to
skip and erase them, if you find it impossible to spare us the trouble
of a little civility.

If we've got to delete your messages anyway, because you're incapable of
polite debate, it's no loss...


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 121
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:23:37 -0500
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:33:37 PST Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
writes:
>> Probably the realist in you. It's relatively simple to determine.
>>Extrapolate on U.S. weapons - since the game comes from here - and Ican
>>automatically tell you that the Predator series is going to be a .45.
>>Everyone owns one, just like Colt 1911s now(which I feel should still
be
>>around in the game).
>
> If I were you, I wouldn't go make assumptions that have not basis
>whatsoever of fact. Predators(and all guns in SR) were not given a
>specific calibre for a reason, and it's utterly senseless to try and
>tell anyone what those calibres are. After all, you know what happens
>when one assumes... :)

Several others on this list will agree with me. Ever since bullets were
first put into cartridges, the single most popular handgun caliber in the
United States has been the .45. Something tells me that 150 years of
tradition - and American gun enthusiasts are surprisingly traditional -
isn't going to evaporate in 60 years. If SR3 has calibers for guns(no,
I'm not holding my breath), I'll be surprised and a bit disappointed if
the Predator line isn't listed as a .45, because that would be a number
one reason for its popularity.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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Message no. 122
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:01:33 GMT
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:33:57 -0500, George H Metz wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:22:39 PST Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
> writes:
>
> > Okay, then, YOU tell ME what kind of ammo goes into an Ares
> >Predator.
>
> Sure, that's simple. UCAS's most popular handgun? It's GOTTA be .45
> ACP....

I doubt it. One of the main reasons the .45 ACP is still so popular is due
to its die-hard fans. Sixty years is a long time and the general public
grows in size much faster than the .45 fans can replicate (meaning that in
sixty years, the percentage of gun owners that own .45s will have dropped).
The 9mm is *extremely* popular at the moment so I don't think that the .45
is the "obvious" choice (the best 9mmP and .45 ACP cartridges are pretty
even as it is).

SR has the Predator delivering 9M damage-- only one power level short of
the most powerful handgun in the game (the Ruger Super Warhawk at 10M). Do
you mean to tell me that the .45 ACP is anywhere near as "damaging" as a
.44 Magnum, 10mm Auto, or .50 AE (my money is on the 10mm-- I'm not gonna
even bother mentioning the .454 Casull or other "monster" handguns)? I
don't think so.

FASA didn't bother including real world data on weapons, ammunition, etc.
for the sole purpose of dismissing the world of Shadowrun from modern times
(ie: to avoid discussions like this one :) Cinematic RPGs like Shadowrun
can only use obscure weapons and damage codes-- to attempt to use more
realistic weapon/ammo statistics would defeat the purpose of a cinematic
RPG (eg: in a John Woo movie, even duel .32 revolvers would be capable of
mowing down a dozen bad-guys in the blink of an eye).



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 123
From: Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:30:38 -0700
Thus spake James Lindsay:
>
> FASA didn't bother including real world data on weapons, ammunition, etc.
> for the sole purpose of dismissing the world of Shadowrun from modern times
> (ie: to avoid discussions like this one :) Cinematic RPGs like Shadowrun
> can only use obscure weapons and damage codes-- to attempt to use more
> realistic weapon/ammo statistics would defeat the purpose of a cinematic
> RPG (eg: in a John Woo movie, even duel .32 revolvers would be capable of
> mowing down a dozen bad-guys in the blink of an eye).

Bravo. It's been said many times, and many ways, but I think you summed
it up quite well here. The system doesn't care about weapon calibers,
and the developers probably don't either. There's much more important
things in life to worry about, like dealing with stupid requests to
make the SR and ED systems and timeframes compatible. :) (I play both
and like them different and seperate.)

On a side note, I don't see how anyone can make a deduction as to the
caliber of a weapon based on an artist's drawing of a weapon. (I'm not
saying you did, James, someone else did a few days ago referring to the
Predator.) The picture is a picture, and is intended to make the person
looking at it say, "Cool! I want one of those!" The combat system breaks
firearms down into groups of type (mainly by size or configuration)
instead of caliber, grain, velocities and all that.

In SWO Guns, we assigned calibers to everything because we like it. It
makes the guns feel complete for us. We didn't use any scientific method
to do so, else it would have marred the end result. We also didn't
go back and assign any calibers to any of the weapons in the books,
although we do have some ideas of our own.

--
Mike Loseke | It's pudding time, children!
mike@*******.com | -- Primus
Message no. 124
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles]
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:23:51 -0500
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:57:31 +0000 "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike"
<trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> writes:
>On 11 Jan 98, cloud guy(Wyrmy) disseminated foul capitalist
>propaganda by writing:
>
><snip>
>> Then in circles we shall go.But personally, I believe that the
>> pred.(my fave pistol,btw)is a .50/55/60 caliber pistol. :=<>
>
>No comments.
>
>Or, to put it in another way...
>
>"I rest my case."


<g> Either Tyrell is joking, or he really doesn't have a clue:) I
personally feel that the Predator is more likely a 9mm handgun, although
I see .45 caliber as being almost as likely.

Canthros
Message no. 125
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles]
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:20:47 -0500
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:48:31 PST Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
writes:

>>> Okay, then, YOU tell ME what kind of ammo goes into an Ares
>>>Predator.
>>
>> Sure, that's simple. UCAS's most popular handgun? It's GOTTA be .45
>>ACP....
>>
>
> Groovy! Now, all I need is your source- what Shadowrun book?

Funny guy. It's simple deductive logic. .45ACP is the preferred caliber
weapon in the United States and has been for almost 150 years. It's
highly unlikely to change.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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Message no. 126
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles]
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:36:31 +0000
In article <19980115.141024.8814.1.wolfstar@****.com>, George H Metz
<wolfstar@****.COM> writes
> Funny guy. It's simple deductive logic. .45ACP is the preferred caliber
>weapon in the United States and has been for almost 150 years.

Erm. Didn't it appear in the early 1900s? 150 years ago is still cap-
and-ball blackpowder revolver time.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 127
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles]
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:45:46 +0100
George H Metz said on 20:20/11 Jan 98...

> Funny guy. It's simple deductive logic. .45ACP is the preferred caliber
> weapon in the United States and has been for almost 150 years.

That's quite a trick for a round introduced about 90 years ago...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's just twenty thousand people standing in a field.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 128
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles]
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:05:27 GMT
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:20:47 -0500, George H Metz wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:48:31 PST Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
> writes:
>
> >>> Okay, then, YOU tell ME what kind of ammo goes into an Ares
> >>>Predator.
> >>
> >> Sure, that's simple. UCAS's most popular handgun? It's GOTTA be .45
> >>ACP....
> >
> > Groovy! Now, all I need is your source- what Shadowrun book?
>
> Funny guy. It's simple deductive logic. .45ACP is the preferred caliber
> weapon in the United States and has been for almost 150 years. It's
> highly unlikely to change.

FYI, the .45 *ACP* isn't anywhere near 150 years old. Perhaps you meant
.44 and .45 calibre weapons in general?

It sounds to me that you are a firm believer in the .45 ACP vs. 9mmP debate
and that it may be colouring your opinion. You may be correct in
predicting what calibres may still be popular ten years from now, but sixty
years is simply to much time-- especially at the rate things change in
today's world. And just because something has stayed the same for 150
years is absolutely NO reason to assume that it never will change--
especially over a time period of sixty years.

Even if the .45 ACP is *slightly* more popular than the 9mm today (which I
seriously doubt), it is in no way the *definitive* calibre of handguns.
Just look at the recent popularity increase in the 10mm and, more
specifically, the .40 S&W. If the popularity of the .40 S&W continues at
its current rate, it *will* be the definitive pistol cartridge five years
from now.

As for my opinion on what calibre the Ares Preditor is, see my other posts
:)




James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 129
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles]
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:13:57 -0700
>> Funny guy. It's simple deductive logic. .45ACP is the preferred
caliber
>>weapon in the United States and has been for almost 150 years.
>
>Erm. Didn't it appear in the early 1900s? 150 years ago is still cap-
>and-ball blackpowder revolver time.


I own a couple of Cap & ball weapons. One is a .44cal Navy
revolver, and the other is a .45cal Derringer.

You'll find that even back then, most weapons were about .45cal,
maybe that is what he meant neh?


MoonShadow
hernandez@********.com
ICQ 3220365

May the god, goddess, or deity of your choice bless,
curse, or completely ignore you, as per your wishes
Message no. 130
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles]
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:37:31 +0000
On 11 Jan 98 at 20:20, George H Metz wrote:



> Funny guy. It's simple deductive logic. .45ACP is the preferred
> caliber
> weapon in the United States and has been for almost 150 years. It's
> highly unlikely to change.


There are TWO "common" .45 caliber pistol cartridges that include
"Colt" in thier name. The oldest of the two is the .45 Colt (AKA .45
Long Colt). This is one of the cartridges that the Colt Single Action
Army revolver (AKA Factory Model P, Peacemaker, Frontier, the
classic TV 6 shooter) was chambered for. This pistol is the earlist
one I can locate that was so chambered , so it is likely it was the
first. It was first produced in 1873, a 125 years ago. This is a
black powder cartridge that has been adapted to smokeless powder.

The "newer" is the .45ACP. While most commonly assocated with the
M1911A1 Pistol (AKA 45 Automatic, Colt's Government Model), the first
pistol I can locate is the Colt Military (Old Model). This pistol was
first manufactured on 26 December 1905. That makes the cartridge
about 93 years old.

To add to the confusion both cartidges can be loaded using the same
bullets.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 131
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:55:27 +0000
On 4 Jan 98 at 19:22, Damon Harper wrote:

> >Easy Gurth. I wasn't talking abou that being impossible, but about
> hating a
> >gun-nut to buy, say "assault rifle-ammo", cause IRL you don't go into a
> >gun-shop and buy "assault rifle-ammo" or "heavy pistol-ammo",
you get
> "5.56
> >NATO FMJs" or ".45ACP JHP" or whatever....
>
> Okay, then, YOU tell ME what kind of ammo goes into an Ares Predator.

On my (self made) list, .45ACP, why?

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 132
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:41:13 +0100
Zixx said on 18:55/ 7 Jan 98...

> > Okay, then, YOU tell ME what kind of ammo goes into an Ares Predator.
>
> On my (self made) list, .45ACP, why?

One fundamental thing many people seem to be forgetting in this thread is
that guns IRL are available in models using different types of ammo. Sure,
the M1911A1 uses .45 ACP, but Colt (and others) make them in lots of
different calibers, 9x19 mm being one of them. The Predator is, IMHO,
available in a number of popular Hevay Pistol calibers; if you want RL
calibers, let's say 9x19 mm, .41 AE, .45 ACP, and more. However, because
under SRII rules all these would do the same damage, it's all been grouped
together into "Heavy Pistol" by FASA.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's just twenty thousand people standing in a field.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 133
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:32:19 +0000
In article <199801171140.MAA01427@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> waffled & burbled about Sniper rifles
>One fundamental thing many people seem to be forgetting in this thread is
>that guns IRL are available in models using different types of ammo. Sure,
>the M1911A1 uses .45 ACP, but Colt (and others) make them in lots of
>different calibers, 9x19 mm being one of them. The Predator is, IMHO,
>available in a number of popular Hevay Pistol calibers; if you want RL
>calibers, let's say 9x19 mm, .41 AE, .45 ACP, and more. However, because
>under SRII rules all these would do the same damage, it's all been grouped
>together into "Heavy Pistol" by FASA.

What a nice simple explanation. My word. Congratulations Gurth, summed
it up in one little paragraph. Clever blighter. :)

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Much as modern weapons like the AMT Automag (4 calibres), Baby Eagle (3)
Browning Hi Power (2), Desert Eagle (4) and a number of other weapons.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk - Shadowtk Newbies Guide & Edgerunners Datastore
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 134
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:13:19 +0000
On 17 Jan 98 at 12:41, Gurth wrote:

> Zixx said on 18:55/ 7 Jan 98...
>
> > > Okay, then, YOU tell ME what kind of ammo goes into an Ares Predator.
> >
> > On my (self made) list, .45ACP, why?
>
> One fundamental thing many people seem to be forgetting in this thread is
> that guns IRL are available in models using different types of ammo. Sure,
> the M1911A1 uses .45 ACP, but Colt (and others) make them in lots of
> different calibers, 9x19 mm being one of them. The Predator is, IMHO,
> available in a number of popular Hevay Pistol calibers; if you want RL
> calibers, let's say 9x19 mm, .41 AE, .45 ACP, and more.

Sure. That's aldo really fun to roleplay. Maybe there's no real difference
between 9mm PB and .45ACP in regular SR-damage-codes, but it's a different
attitude for the char. Maybe one char wants a very special caliber, etc.
That's a bit more interesting than the "every Sam's got a
Predator"-approach.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 135
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:25:02 +0000
In article <U6h7kRAjLLw0Ew4V@*******.demon.co.uk>, Avenger
<Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> writes
>What a nice simple explanation. My word. Congratulations Gurth, summed
>it up in one little paragraph. Clever blighter. :)

Yep. Something I'd overlooked, despite all those guys I shot Practical
with bringing out M1911A1 automatics chambered for 9mm, .38 Super,
.45ACP, .357/45 and .40...
>
>Agreed wholeheartedly.
>
>Much as modern weapons like the AMT Automag (4 calibres), Baby Eagle (3)
>Browning Hi Power (2), Desert Eagle (4) and a number of other weapons.

LAR Grizzly - available in .357 Magnum, .357/45 Grizzly Magnum, 10mm,
.45 Winchester Magnum, .45ACP... something for every side of the
argument in that one.

I think it really gets silly with is the Thompson-Center Contender - one
weapon available in eleven calibres, though more may have been added
since my book was printed - and the American Derringer Model 1,
available in no less than _twenty-four_ calibres from .22LR to .44
Magnum and .410 shotgun... yet in SR they all do 4L damage :)


One reason I don't think a formal system of calibres would work well in
Shadowrun would be for some of that reason: if heavy pistols are 9mm
then some powergamer PC wants to recalibre his for a 10mm with a bigger
powder charge and demands more damage and longer range...

We had a guy like that at our shooting club; brought in a .357/45 and
was blazing away. Very high velocity, flat trajectory, impressive noise,
I'm sure the results on people would be dramatic (this was as lively a
round as .357 Maximum) but his pistol broke after thirty-some rounds:
something in the slide (the swinging link IIRC) snapped and it seized
solid. Oops.


Those who care, like me, can make up calibre data to whatever extend
they desire themselves (since I'd probably disagree with what FASA said
anyway :) ) and those who don't aren't troubled.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Further Reading

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