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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrun)
Subject: sniper rifles auto fire (was munchkin)
Date: Sun Oct 14 16:25:01 2001
according to derek the auto fire in the field was from ..

my argument for autofire sniper rifles is one of
functionality

South African troopies ( SADF) had a favourite, in my time
of service , called the R1 , it was a former assault rifle
basically a FN with a couple of mods ) which had been
replaced by the new R4( in .222 calibre) but they continued
to use the old R1 as a sniper rifle, it took to the job very
well , old sights were replaced and it was very robust , and
fully auto capable, (it also had a kick like bruce lee and
big bullets <.303>) , the big plus to having the option of
auto is that when you are discovered you can retaliate more
effectively ( talking in Afrikaans - <autofire> ) also if
you are going to be captured as such , ditch the scope and
you look like a troopie , not an assassin ,

weight is everything in combat situations , if i as a sniper
have to lug around a scoped rifle and a carbine and a
handgun , i carry less ammo for what i should actually be
using , less supplies , and BTW have you seen the weight
specs on "REAL" sniper rifles (barrett and walther), they
are not extended duty/patrol stuff they weigh too much as do
their bullets why kill with a .50 cal when a .303 or a .222
will do ( big bang theory : i killed him more ?) think of
reduced weight more kills per kilogram etc (economists POV)

if i was in squad , sniping off the cuff , i would have
mortar rounds x2, grenades x4, flares x2, medkit x2 ,
rations(1 day), ammo mags x8 ,eating utensils , portable
stove , rain gear , camo kit , water bottles x2, and that is
just combat kit , i exclude the tent , change of clothes ,
cleaning stuff (for rifle and maybe even some for me) ,
sleeping bag , more rations , more first aid stuff another
set of boots etc in full kit, now most reasonable troopies
ditched half the junk at base but certain things are
essential ( tin openers as SADF don't give knives , and the
wire cutter trick our DS showed us just didn't work)

now granted the R1 isn't in the league of the anschutz ,
walther or barrett , but my groupings with my rifle were
adequate enough to hit a target at upto 800 metres almost
everytime SINGLE FIRE , while "talking in afrikaans" i
would be lucky to hit the same target at 200 metres in
controlled burst , but i do have the option of re-joining
the squad without need to re-kit , and fending off the over
keen with auto fire , and not carrying two lots of ammo

you are right on this point though , sniping has become more
about the getaway than the actual shot , but once you have
opened up , that is it for that target they are alert and
unless small in number, or you have backup, you are only
gonna get one shot , two if your fast and like taking
chances , if they find your position you are wormfood

Kanniemeernie Korperaal , military pacifist
" almost everybody has 20/20 hindsight , but sometimes they
forget to look"
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: sniper rifles auto fire (was munchkin)
Date: Sun Oct 14 17:15:01 2001
>according to derek the auto fire in the field was from ..
>my argument for autofire sniper rifles is one of
>functionality
>South African troopies ( SADF) had a favourite, in my time
>of service , called the R1 , it was a former assault rifle
> basically a FN with a couple of mods ) which had been
>replaced by the new R4( in .222 calibre) but they continued
>to use the old R1 as a sniper rifle, it took to the job very
>well , old sights were replaced and it was very robust , and
>fully auto capable, (it also had a kick like bruce lee and
>big bullets <.303>) , the big plus to having the option of
>auto is that when you are discovered you can retaliate more
>effectively ( talking in Afrikaans - <autofire> ) also if
>you are going to be captured as such , ditch the scope and
>you look like a troopie , not an assassin ,weight is
>everything in combat situations , if i as a sniper
>have to lug around a scoped rifle and a carbine and a
>handgun , i carry less ammo for what i should actually be
>using , less supplies , and BTW have you seen the weight
>specs on "REAL" sniper rifles (barrett and walther), they
>are not extended duty/patrol stuff they weigh too much as do
>their bullets why kill with a .50 cal when a .303 or a .222
>will do ( big bang theory : i killed him more ?) think of
>reduced weight more kills per kilogram etc (economists POV)
>if i was in squad , sniping off the cuff , i would have
>mortar rounds x2, grenades x4, flares x2, medkit x2 ,
>rations(1 day), ammo mags x8 ,eating utensils , portable
>stove , rain gear , camo kit , water bottles x2, and that is
>just combat kit , i exclude the tent , change of clothes ,
>cleaning stuff (for rifle and maybe even some for me) ,
>sleeping bag , more rations , more first aid stuff another
>set of boots etc in full kit, now most reasonable troopies
>ditched half the junk at base but certain things are
>essential ( tin openers as SADF don't give knives , and the
>wire cutter trick our DS showed us just didn't work)
>now granted the R1 isn't in the league of the anschutz ,
>walther or barrett , but my groupings with my rifle were
>adequate enough to hit a target at upto 800 metres almost
>everytime SINGLE FIRE , while "talking in afrikaans" i
>would be lucky to hit the same target at 200 metres in
>controlled burst , but i do have the option of re-joining
>the squad without need to re-kit , and fending off the over
>keen with auto fire , and not carrying two lots of ammo
>you are right on this point though , sniping has become more
>about the getaway than the actual shot , but once you have
>opened up , that is it for that target they are alert and
>unless small in number, or you have backup, you are only
>gonna get one shot , two if your fast and like taking
>chances , if they find your position you are wormfood

Very true....there are places that people use old assault rifles as
sniper rifles but the debate was an actual sniper rifle being fully
auto, as you said there's a world of difference in caliber, the barret
is a .50 cal BUT unless I'm wrong (which is possible) the walther fires
7.62 (.308 cal) which is the same as what a AK-47 shoots unless it's
using the nato 7.62 in which the round is a few mm shorter (I believe
it's 3 or 4 but I don't know that one for sure) regardless as a sniper
you wouldn't be carrying mortar rounds, you would have flares (maybe 2)
you'd have up to 3 days worth of MRE's, you'd only carry 5 mags (and
that's assuming that you plan on needing that much ammo), a weapon
cleaning kit, some form of commo, a basic medical kit (field dressing
and tourniquet), ghillie suit, and facial camo, perhaps a change of
BDU's but you're going to have stashed that stuff all at your fall back
point where you'd start sneaking up from cause you can't low crawl and
hide easily with a 80lb ruck on your back and that's just an estimate.
Another thing to think about is that if you were sniping in the squad
you'd be backed up by people that're carrying grenade launchers, fully
auto light machine guns, and more regular assault rifles. If you're
worried about sniping effectively then you'll just have to go play with
your M16 and put a scope on it and hope you can pick your targets off
easily with it and that you've got the power to kill em with one shot.
It still stands that it's possible to design a fully auto sniper rifle
(since the M2 Browning HMG and the Barret sniper rifle both fire the
same exact round and as someone already mentioned, the M2 has been
proven to be able to snipe at up to 2km away when the scope is mounted
and sighted in properly for the weapon.

Derek
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (bluedragon7)
Subject: sniper rifles auto fire (was munchkin)
Date: Sun Oct 14 21:55:01 2001
and BTW have you seen the weight
> >specs on "REAL" sniper rifles (barrett and walther), they
> >are not extended duty/patrol stuff they weigh too much as do
> >their bullets why kill with a .50 cal when a .303 or a .222
> >will do ( big bang theory : i killed him more ?)

7.62N will do against most military soft targets

> Very true....there are places that people use old assault rifles as
> sniper rifles but the debate was an actual sniper rifle being fully
> auto, as you said there's a world of difference in caliber, the barret
> is a .50 cal BUT unless I'm wrong (which is possible) the walther fires
> 7.62 (.308 cal) which is the same as what a AK-47 shoots unless it's
> using the nato 7.62 in which the round is a few mm shorter (I believe
> it's 3 or 4 but I don't know that one for sure)

the walther(the WA2000 i asume) has .300 Win Mag which has about 1500
footpounds more energy, thats about 56% more than 7.62 Nato (.308), wich has
about 1000 more than 7.62 Sowiet, about 67% more


> Another thing to think about is that if you were sniping in the squad
> you'd be backed up by people that're carrying grenade launchers, fully
> auto light machine guns, and more regular assault rifles. If you're
> worried about sniping effectively then you'll just have to go play with
> your M16 and put a scope on it and hope you can pick your targets off
> easily with it and that you've got the power to kill em with one shot.
> It still stands that it's possible to design a fully auto sniper rifle
> (since the M2 Browning HMG and the Barret sniper rifle both fire the
> same exact round and as someone already mentioned, the M2 has been
> proven to be able to snipe at up to 2km away when the scope is mounted
> and sighted in properly for the weapon.

well you are happy if you find a clear range of more than 1 km in europe for
sniping,..

there is a difference in approach to sniping, there are basicaly to ways to
employ military snipers,..
1. as part of a dedicated scout/sniper team (eg in the USMC)
they have rifles as per objective:
a. .50 caliber against hard targets (eg a Barret)
b. smaller caliber against soft targets ( eg a M21 in 7.62N)

2. as dedicated marksman in a Squad (eg used in Europe)
they had usualy a selected model of the squads primary weapon, fitted with a
scope, just to be better integrated into a squads structure. Used against
soft targets, they were often deployed like a MG as a secondary heavy
weapon, hence the need to fire fully atomatic in an emergency,...

bluedragon7
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: sniper rifles auto fire (was munchkin)
Date: Wed Oct 17 11:05:01 2001
--- shadowrun <shadowrun@********.absa.co.za> wrote:
> according to derek the auto fire in the field was
> from ..
>
> my argument for autofire sniper rifles is one of
> functionality
>
> South African troopies ( SADF) had a favourite, in
> my time
> of service , called the R1 , it was a former assault
> rifle
> basically a FN with a couple of mods ) which had
> been
> replaced by the new R4( in .222 calibre) but they
> continued
> to use the old R1 as a sniper rifle, it took to the
> job very
> well , old sights were replaced and it was very
> robust , and
> fully auto capable, (it also had a kick like bruce
> lee and
> big bullets <.303>) , the big plus to having the
> option of
> auto is that when you are discovered you can
> retaliate more
> effectively ( talking in Afrikaans - <autofire> )
> also if
> you are going to be captured as such , ditch the
> scope and
> you look like a troopie , not an assassin ,
>
> weight is everything in combat situations , if i as
> a sniper
> have to lug around a scoped rifle and a carbine and
> a
> handgun , i carry less ammo for what i should
> actually be
> using , less supplies , and BTW have you seen the
> weight
> specs on "REAL" sniper rifles (barrett and walther),
> they
> are not extended duty/patrol stuff they weigh too
> much as do
> their bullets why kill with a .50 cal when a .303 or
> a .222
> will do ( big bang theory : i killed him more ?)
> think of
> reduced weight more kills per kilogram etc
> (economists POV)
>
> if i was in squad , sniping off the cuff , i would
> have
> mortar rounds x2, grenades x4, flares x2, medkit x2
> ,
> rations(1 day), ammo mags x8 ,eating utensils ,
> portable
> stove , rain gear , camo kit , water bottles x2, and
> that is
> just combat kit , i exclude the tent , change of
> clothes ,
> cleaning stuff (for rifle and maybe even some for
> me) ,
> sleeping bag , more rations , more first aid stuff
> another
> set of boots etc in full kit, now most reasonable
> troopies
> ditched half the junk at base but certain things are
> essential ( tin openers as SADF don't give knives ,
> and the
> wire cutter trick our DS showed us just didn't work)
>
> now granted the R1 isn't in the league of the
> anschutz ,
> walther or barrett , but my groupings with my rifle
> were
> adequate enough to hit a target at upto 800 metres
> almost
> everytime SINGLE FIRE , while "talking in
> afrikaans" i
> would be lucky to hit the same target at 200 metres
> in
> controlled burst , but i do have the option of
> re-joining
> the squad without need to re-kit , and fending off
> the over
> keen with auto fire , and not carrying two lots of
> ammo
>
> you are right on this point though , sniping has
> become more
> about the getaway than the actual shot , but once
> you have
> opened up , that is it for that target they are
> alert and
> unless small in number, or you have backup, you are
> only
> gonna get one shot , two if your fast and like
> taking
> chances , if they find your position you are
> wormfood

>From the look of the above could I suggest that the
player uses 2 range tables:one for auto and the other
for sniping as you say that you lose accurancy when in
auto mode.That would also be more balancing in the game.

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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