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Message no. 1
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:24:26 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 21:00 on 7 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Sneaking up on a sniper? That assumes you can pinpoint the sniper's
> > location (in which case the sniper hasn't done his or her job well
> > enough) and that the sniper doesn't see you coming (unlikely, as
> > observation is about as important in sniper training as accuracy with a
> > rifle). If you try to approach a sniper and the sniper has time to set
> > up a shot, I wouldn't rate your survival chances very highly...
>
> Good points. Still, it's called "contingency planning". :) It's
> unlikely to happen, but one time in ten, or a hundred, or a thousand,
> SOMEONE'S going to get the drop on you.

To be honest, I doubt it. The fact that modern-day snipers don't carry
that kind of firepower for such a contingency situation probably says
enough, IMHO.

> And it's MUCH more of an issue in SR than in real life. I've played an
> SR sniper and I've NEVER had a spotter (not enough manpower)

Maybe it was partly because nobody in the group knows that -- or
understands why -- snipers use spotters?

> and I've rarely had the clear lines of sight of an open-field sniper
> that I need in order to be able to observe everything around me.

That's probably because SR games tend to take place in urban terrain,
where you could snipe with an SMG if you were so inclined. In open
terrain, you can put the long range of a rifle to good use.

> > You could also make the sniper an ork, so that the weight won't be
> > much of a bother, either. Or equip the spotter with the assault rifle
> > and grenade launcher...
>
> True - or a bulked-out adept or sammie. :)

Equally possible, sure.

> > Good, just making sure :) Too many shadowrunner teams carry all kinds
> > of different weapons, with the effect that when one person runs out of
> > ammo, the others can't share theirs...
>
> Oh yes - way bad news.
>
> Of course, that's not such an issue in SR GAMES, as different weapons
> in the same class have interchangeable ammo. Unless you want to get
> realistic, of course.

Well, I enforce the rule that unless the clip size is the same, weapons
can't share ammo except by removing the rounds from one weapon's clip and
stuffing them into an empty clip for the other. Which takes plenty of
time...

> > Okay, but what about the number of shots? That's my main objection to
> > a laser as a support weapon -- if the common types of laser hold only
> > 20 shots, the best ones available might hold maybe 50 or so and still
> > be portable. For the same bulk and weight, you could have hundreds of
> > rounds for a machinegun.
>
> Good point. But those bullets would just be bouncing off the tougher
> drones.

Get an MMG with APDS rounds. That way you can kill Armor 15 drones with a
well-aimed burst.

> As I said, the laser is just for drone-killing and emergencies. The only
> other thing that'd be of use in that role would be an assault cannon
> (which also suffers from ammo limitations) and is hellishly noisy.

If you want to do silent shots, yes, a laser is the way to go.

> I'm not sure, but I think I may actually have given everyone MGL
> pistols and a wide assortment of minigrenades. Tasty, neh?

And very heavy. If I were you, I'd add up the weights of all the stuff
they're supposed to be wearing and carrying, just to see if it's still
feasible.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 2
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:51:57 EDT
In a message dated 9/8/1999 4:24:59 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> > Good points. Still, it's called "contingency planning". :) It's
> > unlikely to happen, but one time in ten, or a hundred, or a thousand,
> > SOMEONE'S going to get the drop on you.
>
> To be honest, I doubt it. The fact that modern-day snipers don't carry
> that kind of firepower for such a contingency situation probably says
> enough, IMHO.

Actually Gurth, in MOST instances, the concept of a Sniper is a military
thing, and the military always has backups (that's what everybody is there
fore). Sniper Assassins that are running around are an entirely different
group. They are probably acting in the singular tense, unless they have the
resources to act in the plural (aka: someone to back them up). For the
Sniper acting alone, "Contingency Plans" are probably very likely.
Especially if we bring into effect the potential ability of Tactical
Computers, BattleTACS and Drone Networks on the *Security* companies side.
If the Sniper succeeds and hits their target, that company is gonna want to
have revenge itself!!!

> > And it's MUCH more of an issue in SR than in real life. I've played an
> > SR sniper and I've NEVER had a spotter (not enough manpower)
>
> Maybe it was partly because nobody in the group knows that -- or
> understands why -- snipers use spotters?

They will soon enough ... I'm suprised they don't with FDDM and Snake Eyes
modules as it is.

> > and I've rarely had the clear lines of sight of an open-field sniper
> > that I need in order to be able to observe everything around me.
>
> That's probably because SR games tend to take place in urban terrain,
> where you could snipe with an SMG if you were so inclined. In open
> terrain, you can put the long range of a rifle to good use.

Actually, the group here has become *VERY* reliant on their primary Sniper
(EX-Salish Ranger), even to the point of three other people aquiring variants
on the theme (including one guy with a TranqRifle that has extended range
built into it...yes, this latter is a house rule).

> > > Good, just making sure :) Too many shadowrunner teams carry all kinds
> > > of different weapons, with the effect that when one person runs out of
> > > ammo, the others can't share theirs...
> >
> > Oh yes - way bad news.

Mercifully, this has happened yet. Last nights' game was almost beyond
reproach, but most of the time it isn't a problem.

> > > Okay, but what about the number of shots? That's my main objection to
> > > a laser as a support weapon -- if the common types of laser hold only
> > > 20 shots, the best ones available might hold maybe 50 or so and still
> > > be portable. For the same bulk and weight, you could have hundreds of
> > > rounds for a machinegun.

Then plug the damn thing into a wall socket or running vehicle. Have a
"transformer box" for both/either instance and go to town...

> > Good point. But those bullets would just be bouncing off the tougher
> > drones.
>
> Get an MMG with APDS rounds. That way you can kill Armor 15 drones with a
> well-aimed burst.

Actually, I was under the impression it wouldn't. The consideration of
"individual power" has to be considered first.

> > I'm not sure, but I think I may actually have given everyone MGL
> > pistols and a wide assortment of minigrenades. Tasty, neh?
>
> And very heavy. If I were you, I'd add up the weights of all the stuff
> they're supposed to be wearing and carrying, just to see if it's still
> feasible.

Yet *another* reason to have a small anthroform or generic "wagon drone"
following the group around.

-K (who really likes Kenny, Ike, and the soon-to-be-finished Bernie!!!!!!!)
Message no. 3
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:50:38 -0700 (PDT)
> > > Good points. Still, it's called "contingency planning". :) It's
unlikely to happen, but one time in ten, or a hundred, or a thousand,
SOMEONE'S going to get the drop on you.
> >
> > To be honest, I doubt it. The fact that modern-day snipers don't
carry that kind of firepower for such a contingency situation probably
says enough, IMHO.

Really?

Kevin, Paul - what DO modern-day military snipers usually carry as
backup weapons? And does this vary if they're going on long-term
insertion missions as opposed to missions close to support?

> > > And it's MUCH more of an issue in SR than in real life. I've
played an SR sniper and I've NEVER had a spotter (not enough manpower)
> >
> > Maybe it was partly because nobody in the group knows that -- or
understands why -- snipers use spotters?

Perhaps. But it's still mostly a manpower thing. The closest thing I've
ever had to a spotter was a drone run by a rigger buddy (character of
GreyWolf's). And THAT'S only in theory. We haven't had the chance to
run the combo together yet.

> > > and I've rarely had the clear lines of sight of an open-field
sniper that I need in order to be able to observe everything around me.

> >
> > That's probably because SR games tend to take place in urban
terrain, where you could snipe with an SMG if you were so inclined. In
open terrain, you can put the long range of a rifle to good use.

Well, DUH. :) Point being? Remember, Gurth, almost all SR work DOES and
WILL take place in urban terrain. Forever and ever. Amen.

> Then plug the damn thing into a wall socket or running vehicle. Have
a "transformer box" for both/either instance and go to town...

Ah yes...quick recharge batteries. Me LIKE that idea.

> > > Good point. But those bullets would just be bouncing off the
tougher drones.
> >
> > Get an MMG with APDS rounds. That way you can kill Armor 15 drones
with a well-aimed burst.
>
> Actually, I was under the impression it wouldn't. The consideration
of "individual power" has to be considered first.

You're BOTH forgetting that drone armour is VEHICULAR armour and APDS
are NOT vehicular armour defeating. In fact NO man-portable weapon
smaller than an anti-vehicle rocket launcher is. (Well, the assault
cannon may be, but I'm not sure.) My intention for this laser rifle is
that it IS an AV weapon. It is the BEST WEAPON FOR THE JOB. That's why
he's carrying it, despite a low ammo capacity.

I DO think these things through. Usually. :)

> > > I'm not sure, but I think I may actually have given everyone MGL
pistols and a wide assortment of minigrenades. Tasty, neh?
> >
> > And very heavy.

Not particularly, no. Comparatively speaking, anyway. MINIgrenades. And
IIRC the MGL pistols are no heavier than standard pistols.

> If I were you, I'd add up the weights of all the stuff they're
supposed to be wearing and carrying, just to see if it's still
feasible.
>
> Yet *another* reason to have a small anthroform or generic "wagon
drone" following the group around.
> -K (who really likes Kenny, Ike, and the soon-to-be-finished
Bernie!!!!!!!)

Oh, I have load-bearing mechanisms. They're called cyber- and
bio-modified humans and orks and an adept with a strength 10. :)

And then there ARE the drones.

Don't worry, Gurth. Weight isn't going to be a concern. I hope. :)

*Doc' looks into the possibilities of getting a pack horse to carry the
team's gear...oh, wait...wrong genre...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 4
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:38:04 -0400
At 17.50 09-08-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Kevin, Paul - what DO modern-day military snipers usually carry as
>backup weapons? And does this vary if they're going on long-term

Usually just a sidearm. There are some cases of ultra-long range
operations where everything had to be carried in, but those are flukes.
In a few cases, sharpshooters have carried SMGs or carbines along with
thier rifles, particualry in places like South America, but those are
defenantly exceptions, not the rule.
Spotters carry a rifle or a carbine, the latter often fitted with a GL.

>Well, DUH. :) Point being? Remember, Gurth, almost all SR work DOES and
>WILL take place in urban terrain. Forever and ever. Amen.

I like to through folks into the field. Nice, open ountry for all the
agoraphobics to deal with, along with enough range to really use a rifle.
Nothing like seeing a sam soil himself after he gets hit and hears the shot
three seconds latter, and knowing that even with his fancy gear, he can't
see that far much less shoot.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 5
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:11:33 -0700 (PDT)
> > And it's MUCH more of an issue in SR than in real life. I've played
an SR sniper and I've NEVER had a spotter (not enough manpower)
>
> Maybe it was partly because nobody in the group knows that -- or
understands why -- snipers use spotters?

Actually, come to think of it, that's probably part of it. Also
probably partly due to the way my SR sniper operates. (He isn't the
toughest, but he's a good sniper and he can take care of himself up
close too, so he CAN operate solo if necessary.)

> Well, I enforce the rule that unless the clip size is the same,
weapons can't share ammo except by removing the rounds from one
weapon's clip and stuffing them into an empty clip for the other. Which
takes plenty of time...

Not a bad idea. I'm a bit more simplistic about it. While rounds may be
interchangeable, CLIPS are not. (Although come to think of it, that may
actually be unrealistic. Can anyone tell me if there are different
weapons with compatible clips IRL?)

> If you want to do silent shots, yes, a laser is the way to go.
> Gurth@******.nl

Oh yes - yes I do. Priority one is to move fast. Priority two (and VERY
close behind P1) is NOT to be noticed.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 6
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:24:33 -0400
At 19.11 09-08-99 -0700, you wrote:
>actually be unrealistic. Can anyone tell me if there are different
>weapons with compatible clips IRL?)

Yes, there are. Many NATO weapons (M-16, L58, the new G36, among others)
use M-16 magazines, for example.
But as a rule, unless they are all variations on a theme (M-16 and M-4,
HK-33 and and -53, AK-74 and AKSU), they don't, without some modification.
In SR, I can't think of any should arms that use the same mags, but the
Predator and Predator II would, as would the Max-Power and Ultra-Power. If
you wanted to add your own weapons, it is your call. (For example, I
accept the SWO's Mossberg combo gun, but I ruled that it used the CMDT
magazines, and made the 8-rounders standard, with the 12s a specialty
item.)I can't see, for example, a magazine for a AK-97 fitting a M-22 or an
Alpha, but a modified AUG might use M-22 magazines. I can't see a
Vindicator and a MP-LMG using the same box, but the belts would be made to
a military standard. Be creative, do some research, and use your common
sense.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:29:36 -0500
> > > And it's MUCH more of an issue in SR than in real life. I've
> > > played an SR sniper and I've NEVER had a spotter (not enough
> > > manpower)
> >
> > Maybe it was partly because nobody in the group knows that -- or
> > understands why -- snipers use spotters?
>
> Actually, come to think of it, that's probably part of it. Also
> probably partly due to the way my SR sniper operates. (He isn't the
> toughest, but he's a good sniper and he can take care of himself up
> close too, so he CAN operate solo if necessary.)

Doc', have you seen the original LETHAL WEAPON? Go rent it some day and
watch it again (if for no other reason than that it's a really fun movie),
and watch the scene where Murtaugh rides out into the desert to pick up
Rianne from Joshua and his men.

Martin Riggs is about half, three-fourths of a click back, acting as a
sniper (and pulling off some beautiful shots, too, I might add; ain't movies
grand? <g>). He has no spotter.

Look what happened to him. Riggs was more than capable of taking care of
himself, but as General McAllister told him, "You're not that fast."

Always remember: Your spotter is not just your friend, he's your lifeline.
Sniping without a spotter is not generally a good idea.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 8
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:40:33 -0700 (PDT)
> > Actually, come to think of it, that's probably part of it. Also
probably partly due to the way my SR sniper operates. (He isn't the
toughest, but he's a good sniper and he can take care of himself up
close too, so he CAN operate solo if necessary.)
>
> Doc', have you seen the original LETHAL WEAPON? Go rent it some day
and watch it again (if for no other reason than that it's a really fun
movie), and watch the scene where Murtaugh rides out into the desert to
pick up Rianne from Joshua and his men.
>
> Martin Riggs is about half, three-fourths of a click back, acting as
a sniper (and pulling off some beautiful shots, too, I might add; ain't
movies grand? <g>). He has no spotter.
>
> Look what happened to him. Riggs was more than capable of taking
care of himself, but as General McAllister told him, "You're not that
fast."
>
> Always remember: Your spotter is not just your friend, he's your
lifeline. Sniping without a spotter is not generally a good idea.
> (>) Texas 2-Step

I know that. You think I don't know that? I KNOW that.

8-)

Sometimes you just don't have the option. When you're on a team of four
or five with a sniper, a decker, a mage and a combat grunt or two, you
don't have the personnel (or the equipment - no rigger, Kevin!) to HAVE
a spotter.

I would LOVE to always play with a spotter. Doesn't mean it's gonna
happen.

Contingencies are everything in SR, even moreso than in the military,
because what you have to work with is so much more limited. Believe me,
if my SR sniper can mount a GL on his rifle, he's gonna do it, because
that's ONE less thing he has to worry about not having. Y'know?

*Doc' sighs. The sigh of an exasperated, frustrated man. The sigh EGMs love...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 9
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:44:52 -0400
At 19.40 09-08-99 -0700, you wrote:
>or five with a sniper, a decker, a mage and a combat grunt or two, you
>don't have the personnel (or the equipment - no rigger, Kevin!) to HAVE

Any rules about the mage whomping up a watcher, and telling the little
drone "this man will show you what he needs to do; listen to him is if he
was I" and give the sniper an el-chepo fetish or light bonding spell, so
that the watcher remembers, and using the watcher as a spotter.
Also, if you have the funds, hier someone to spot for you. Gives the GM
one more than to do, but....



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 10
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:05:02 -0700 (PDT)
> >Kevin, Paul - what DO modern-day military snipers usually carry as
backup weapons? And does this vary if they're going on long-term
>
> Usually just a sidearm. There are some cases of ultra-long range
operations where everything had to be carried in, but those are flukes.

> In a few cases, sharpshooters have carried SMGs or carbines along
with thier rifles, particualry in places like South America, but those
are defenantly exceptions, not the rule.

Okay, so for standard military ops a sniper rifle-mounted GL is prolly
not the best idea.

> >Well, DUH. :) Point being? Remember, Gurth, almost all SR work DOES
and WILL take place in urban terrain. Forever and ever. Amen.
>
> I like to through folks into the field. Nice, open ountry for all
the agoraphobics to deal with, along with enough range to really use a
rifle. Nothing like seeing a sam soil himself after he gets hit and
hears the shot three seconds latter, and knowing that even with his
fancy gear, he can't see that far much less shoot.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

Yeah, but you're a mean bastard, Kevin. :)

And to throw your own words back in your teeth (jeez, I'm feeling catty
today :) ), that's the EXCEPTION, not the rule...

*Doc' starts to purr and lick his balls...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 11
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:24:08 -0700 (PDT)
> Any rules about the mage whomping up a watcher, and telling the
little drone "this man will show you what he needs to do; listen to him
is if he was I" and give the sniper an el-chepo fetish or light bonding
spell, so that the watcher remembers, and using the watcher as a
spotter.

Hmmm...okay, THAT one didn't occur to me, I must say. In any event, an
average watcher would probably be too stupid to do much right. Maybe a
force 3 or 4 elemental. Hmmm...

> Also, if you have the funds, hier someone to spot for you. Gives
the GM one more than to do, but....
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

Okay, that comes back to my general reluctance to trust an NPC to watch
ME, rather than me watch them. :) Unless they're a buddy...

Hey...that's an idea. A new level 2 "Spotter" contact. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 12
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:44:19 EDT
In a message dated 9/8/1999 10:04:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> > I like to through folks into the field. Nice, open ountry for all
> the agoraphobics to deal with, along with enough range to really use a
> rifle. Nothing like seeing a sam soil himself after he gets hit and
> hears the shot three seconds latter, and knowing that even with his
> fancy gear, he can't see that far much less shoot.
> > Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
>
> Yeah, but you're a mean bastard, Kevin. :)
>
> And to throw your own words back in your teeth (jeez, I'm feeling catty
> today :) ), that's the EXCEPTION, not the rule...
>
> *Doc' starts to purr and lick his balls...*

First of all ... BAD IMAGE that one is ;-P

Secondly, it isn't the exception to gaming. It may just be an exception to
*your* games there Doc. Open Fields and Non-Urban Terrain can be quite cool
for locations, especially for those Prisons where you have to break people
out of (we did this two of the last three weeks for a game) or those strange,
out-of-the-way laboratories where Dr. Moreau may be testing his latest
subjects ... letting them stretch their legs, *and* yours too ;-)

-K
Message no. 13
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:53:58 -0700 (PDT)
> > > I like to through folks into the field. Nice, open ountry
for all the agoraphobics to deal with, along with enough range to
really use a rifle. Nothing like seeing a sam soil himself after he
gets hit and hears the shot three seconds latter, and knowing that even
with his fancy gear, he can't see that far much less shoot.
> > > Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka
> Steel Tengu
> >
> > Yeah, but you're a mean bastard, Kevin. :)
> >
> > And to throw your own words back in your teeth (jeez, I'm feeling
catty today :) ), that's the EXCEPTION, not the rule...
> >
> > *Doc' starts to purr and lick his balls...*
>
> First of all ... BAD IMAGE that one is ;-P

*Doc' takes a bow...then starts to purr and sniff his privates
again...*

> Secondly, it isn't the exception to gaming. It may just be an
exception to *your* games there Doc. Open Fields and Non-Urban Terrain
can be quite cool for locations, especially for those Prisons where you
have to break people out of (we did this two of the last three weeks
for a game) or those strange, out-of-the-way laboratories where Dr.
Moreau may be testing his latest subjects ... letting them stretch
their legs, *and* yours too ;-)
> -K

*sigh*

Rephrase again. The AVERAGE shadowrun (not game, but shadowrun) takes
place in closed urban terrain.

And wtf are you talking about, K??? Like YOUR games are NOT the
exception to the rule? Huh??
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 14
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:29:49 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 19:11 on 8 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Not a bad idea. I'm a bit more simplistic about it. While rounds may be
> interchangeable, CLIPS are not. (Although come to think of it, that may
> actually be unrealistic. Can anyone tell me if there are different
> weapons with compatible clips IRL?)

Most weapons can't share magazines IRL, but there are some cases where
they can -- many western assault rifles use M16 magazines, for example,
while most eastern ones use AK mags. So, you can take an FNC rifle and put
in a US-manufactured magazine intended for M16s. Or a Chinese Type 56
assault rifle with a Russian AKM magazine.

For simplicity, though, in SR I assume that weapons of the same class
(heavy pistol, assault rifle, etc.) and with the same clip size, can share
clips.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Send BIOS authors and hard drive manufacturers back to school!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:29:49 +0200
According to IronRaven, at 22:24 on 8 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Yes, there are. Many NATO weapons (M-16, L58, the new G36, among others)
> use M-16 magazines, for example.

Small correction: the G36 uses its own type of plastic magazines that can
be clipped together. AFAIK it can't accept M16-type mags.

> In SR, I can't think of any should arms that use the same mags, but the
> Predator and Predator II would, as would the Max-Power and Ultra-Power.

Don't forget the AK-97 and AK-98.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Send BIOS authors and hard drive manufacturers back to school!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:02:33 +0200
And finally, IronRaven expressed himself by writing:

> Yes, there are. Many NATO weapons (M-16, L58, the new
> G36, among others)
> use M-16 magazines, for example.

I admit it's trivial (as always:), but the G36 cannot
use M16 mags. The Bundeswehr just had to invent the wheel
again, and theirs is transparent and has clips to connect
several of them without tape.

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
All suspects are guilty, serious. Otherwise they
wouldn't be suspects, would they?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 17
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:38:24 -0400
At 12.29 09-09-99 +0200, you wrote:
>Small correction: the G36 uses its own type of plastic magazines that can
>be clipped together. AFAIK it can't accept M16-type mags.

I thought I read something about the origional requirements contanining a
clause for STANAG magazines. Then again, that goes back a ways. If I'm
wrong, I'm wrong, thanks for the save.

>Don't forget the AK-97 and AK-98.

Variations on a theme. That wouldbe like poiting out the M-22 and M-23,
or the various Cobras, or the HK-227 and -227S.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 18
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:38:24 -0400
At 12.29 09-09-99 +0200, you wrote:
>Small correction: the G36 uses its own type of plastic magazines that can
>be clipped together. AFAIK it can't accept M16-type mags.

I thought I read something about the origional requirements contanining a
clause for STANAG magazines. Then again, that goes back a ways. If I'm
wrong, I'm wrong, thanks for the save.

>Don't forget the AK-97 and AK-98.

Variations on a theme. That wouldbe like poiting out the M-22 and M-23,
or the various Cobras, or the HK-227 and -227S.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 19
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:59:16 EDT
In a message dated 9/9/1999 1:53:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> > Secondly, it isn't the exception to gaming. It may just be an
> exception to *your* games there Doc. Open Fields and Non-Urban Terrain
> can be quite cool for locations, especially for those Prisons where you
> have to break people out of (we did this two of the last three weeks
> for a game) or those strange, out-of-the-way laboratories where Dr.
> Moreau may be testing his latest subjects ... letting them stretch
> their legs, *and* yours too ;-)
> > -K
>
> *sigh*
>
> Rephrase again. The AVERAGE shadowrun (not game, but shadowrun) takes
> place in closed urban terrain.
>
> And wtf are you talking about, K??? Like YOUR games are NOT the
> exception to the rule? Huh??

I wasn't arguing the point that our games (Mike's and mine own) aren't
exception to the rule. We *know* we're exceptions to probably every rule.
BUT, with three out of the last four weekday games ending on *major*
Cliffhangers, I think we're doing pretty good (it has been a while since the
entire group has wanted to kill me because of the perceived torture they are
now left in ;-).

BTW, after some fairly estranged conversations with people on IRC/#Shadowrun
lately, a strange throught about "Camouflage" has come to mind for me. What
are the various house rules for "Camouflage" that people have used in their
games? I'm really curious now, not only from the POV of what is possible,
but what direction you perceive certain skills usage(s).

For instance, one such ruling we've got is that the person with a
"Camouflage" or "Blending" skill (either stand alone or Specialization
off of
Stealth) rolls a number against the persons' signature. The number of
successes becomes the temporary boosting to the signature, or at least the
visual perception test modifier. Kind of like knowing how to place/apply
certain cosmetics, paints, types of clothing, etc...in order to directly
improve something.

Anyone else?

-K
Message no. 20
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:31:23 +0100
In article <19990909005038.14286.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>Kevin, Paul - what DO modern-day military snipers usually carry as
>backup weapons? And does this vary if they're going on long-term
>insertion missions as opposed to missions close to support?

AFAIK our snipers usually don't carry backup weapons: again, that's what
their partner is for.



>Well, DUH. :) Point being? Remember, Gurth, almost all SR work DOES and
>WILL take place in urban terrain. Forever and ever. Amen.

Beg pardon? :) Maybe in _your_ game...

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 21
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:03:38 -0400
BTW, after some fairly estranged conversations with people on IRC/#Shadowrun
> lately, a strange throught about "Camouflage" has come to mind for me.
What
> are the various house rules for "Camouflage" that people have used in
their
> games? I'm really curious now, not only from the POV of what is possible,
> but what direction you perceive certain skills usage(s).
>
> For instance, one such ruling we've got is that the person with a
> "Camouflage" or "Blending" skill (either stand alone or
Specialization off
of
> Stealth) rolls a number against the persons' signature. The number of
> successes becomes the temporary boosting to the signature, or at least the
> visual perception test modifier. Kind of like knowing how to place/apply
> certain cosmetics, paints, types of clothing, etc...in order to directly
> improve something.
>
> Anyone else?
>
> -K
>

We just use the Stealth skill with lots of common sense. Since stealth is so
vague, we end up using far more common sense than I would like. I'd like to
hear a good house rule, too.
Message no. 22
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:39:17 +0200
And finally, Ereskanti expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> BTW, after some fairly estranged conversations with people on
> IRC/#Shadowrun
> lately, a strange throught about "Camouflage" has come to mind
> for me. What
> are the various house rules for "Camouflage" that people have
> used in their
> games? I'm really curious now, not only from the POV of what is
> possible,
> but what direction you perceive certain skills usage(s).

I am thinking about the simple +4 modifier
you get when wearing camo clothing. Maybe I alter
it into +2 for "basic" camo like woodland or desert
as a whole suit. Then the +4 for customized suits
as IronRaven wrote about (as an example woodland
trousers and overwhite top for partly snowy terrain).
Then +6 for Ghillie and other advanced camo. Opinions?

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 23
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
> >Well, DUH. :) Point being? Remember, Gurth, almost all SR work DOES
and WILL take place in urban terrain. Forever and ever. Amen.
>
> Beg pardon? :) Maybe in _your_ game...
> Paul J. Adam

*sigh*

Again, as I pointed out to K, note the phrasing. I did NOT say almost
all SR GAMES. I said SR WORK. Shadowruns, by their very nature, will
most often occur in built up urban areas. The fact is, guys, most games
deal with the EXCEPTIONS to these rules, because standard shadowruns,
while relatively quick, easy and safe, get boring after a while. Then
you start looking at the weird and the wonderful.

Get my point?

*Doc' does a poor job of concealing the sword behind his back...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Message no. 24
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 01:01:15 EDT
In a message dated 9/9/1999 11:16:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> Get my point?

No...

> *Doc' does a poor job of concealing the sword behind his back...*


...so K helps display the point by shoving said sword through Doc's back for
fun...

:-)

-K
Message no. 25
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:11:35 -0700 (PDT)
> > Get my point?
>
> No...
>
> > *Doc' does a poor job of concealing the sword behind his back...*
>
> ...so K helps display the point by shoving said sword through Doc's
back for fun...

*"You need to see a psychiatrist about your anger," Doc' tells K before
he expires..."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Message no. 26
From: Aaron sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:24:17 +1000
> And to throw your own words back in your teeth (jeez, I'm feeling catty
> today :) ), that's the EXCEPTION, not the rule...
>
> *Doc' starts to purr and lick his balls...*
> ==> Doc'

Erm.. thats what Dogs do.. not cats..

... eww !

GreyWolf
Message no. 27
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 08:14:21 -0400
At 18.24 09-12-99 +1000, you wrote:
>Erm.. thats what Dogs do.. not cats..

So do cats.
Who am I to pass judgement. Ravens and crows scratch thier butts, but
since they lack hands, and thier feet don't bend that way, it kinda limits
the number of projections available to thier beaks.
BTW, wolves and coyotes do this as well. The only canine or cousin who
probably doesn't would be hyenas, and them's just nasty dirty cusses.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 28
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Snipers (was Re: Questions of great importance)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:01:48 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Aaron."
] > *Doc' starts to purr and lick his balls...*
] > ==] > Doc'
]
] Erm.. thats what Dogs do.. not cats..

Sadly, that ain't so. There's no better icebreaker at a party then
your cat wandering into the middle of the room, sittting down, and
going to work on his...ahem, cleaning duties. I love pets, but they've
simply no sense of etiquette :)

-Boondocker

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